Welcome Guest - Register Today!

[Allie]

The second "is Harry a Horcrux?" topic has reached an extremely long thirty pages, so it is now, at long last, retiring to the Archived Threads forum. You can read Version 1 of the thread here and Version 2 here, although both topics are read-only so you will not be able to add new posts in either -- you'll have to return to this thread if you would like to respond.

I noticed that many members seemed to stop reading the previous posts before responding towards the end of the old thread. This can be extremely frustrating for people who have been involved in the discussion for a long time, because they find themselves having to post the same ideas over and over and over in order for their thoughts to reach everyone. If another member who has been involved in the conversation for a while would like to post a summary of the central arguments thus far, please go ahead and do so! Until then, I ask that new members review the last few pages of the old thread before posting to maximize the productivity of the discussion. Thanks!

The last post in thread #2 was made by misshaunted390:

[mbedassie]

For the most of you who have read book 6 should hve understood from Sulghorn's word a horcrux can only be made after a persons' death.There is no way Harry can be a horcrux.Even if the AK should
have killed harry.Slughorn says there is a spell to create a horcrux
so he couldn't make any until about goblet of fire when he got his body back so it would it be about fourteen years.

[Bandoth]

Sigh... Once again, we've been through this. Slughorn says that "murder" splits the soul, not killing. Thus, the very moment the AK touched Harry, the act of murder has been committed, though not completed, thus shown by the AK rebounding. The fact that the soul could/should have split at that time put together with the fact that there was at least some transfer of power in the time of the AK shows that Harry could indeed be a horcrux.

[lord montymort]

how could from when the ak curse hit harry and rebounded on lord voldemort, could he get voldmeorts soul get from his body to harry, since slughorn told us to encase the sould into another being you need a incatation.
also bandoth i have recently joined the forum and havent read all the posts so posts could be abit nicer!

[Allie]

[lord montymort]

i understand its annoying reading the same topics over and over again but think my points are valid some people do make mistakes because they are new and havent read the entire topic so some leway should be tolerated

MOD NOTE: This is off-topic. If you have any concerns about the forums and their running, deal with it with me via PM. Do not make posts that do not relate to the topic of discussion on the main boards. Thank you.

This post has been edited by Anthony Goldstein: Sep 4 2005, 11:17 PM

[misshaunted390]

what topic are we on again?
oh, yeah...Is Harry A Horcrux?

erm..honest answer?
No idea whatsoever!!!
It is possible, but i wouldn't say it is very probable. If Harry is a horcrux, he's going to find it verrrrry difficult to fullfill the prophecy isn't he, what with having to kill himself before he can destroy Voldemort. Wow, that is one HUGE dilemma! I wouldn't fancy being in that predicament!

Murder creates horcruxes, but Harry wasn't killed, so how could he be a horcrux? I suppose Voldemort could have used Lily's death and then said the incantation, but we then come to the question... why would Voldemort make Harry into a horcrux if he went to Godric's Hollow to kill him in the first place?

BTW, personally i enjoy reading what other people have to say on these most intriguing matters, but then that's me all over isn't it? We must respect each other's opinions, as everyone is entitled to there own thoughts and theories arent they?

Oops, off topic...Sorry...

[Bandoth]

Right. I'm going to see if links are working for me right now to direct you to a post made by traz-ak that basically answers most of the basic questions about Harry being a horcrux.

http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...ndpost&p=100896

Guess it's not, so I had to post the entire URL. That gives an updated version of what I believe really could have happened to make Harry a horcrux. Maybe I should get back on Explorer when trying to use tags... They're not working right now too well...

Edit: Oh! So it did make the link by itself! That works. You have to read down to the disclaimer to get to the actual theory. Before that is just responding, though it is pretty interesting if you had followed it beforehand.

[roonil_wazlib]

Oh god. Anyways, in order for me to give a full respond to this, we'll have to find out a lot more about horcruxes. All we learned was that you need to split your soul in two (commit murder), seal the part of your soul, and it's kind of like having two lives, right? But JK never tells us about living horcruxes. DD tells Harry that he suspects that Nagini is a horcrux. So, in order to destroy that horcrux, does Harry have to kill Nagini?

Assuming that a living horcrux has to be killed to be destroyed, why would Voldy want to destory one of his horcruxes? I mean, he could make a new one, but, I mean come on! Plus, Voldy intended to kill Harry in the first place so I really doubt that the AK curse can turn into a horcrux sealing curse. It is a very interesting theory.

Plus, if Harry does turn out to be a horcrux, does that mean that Harry has to die in the end? I really don't know because like I said, JK doesn't tell us that living horcruxes have to die. Plus, all the past destroyed horcruxes we've seen were merely damaged: the ring had a crack in it and the diary was just laking ink (how, I dunno) or something. So, maybe a living horcrux (liek Harry or Nagini) simply have to be injured? I really dunno. Stupid horcurxes...they're so complicated!!!!

[Nimbus]

This pretty much sums up why I don't think Harry is a horcrux...


Firstly, I think it is important to say that almost all the Harry is a horcrux theorys rest on the assumption that once a person splits there soul, their soul-bit (the portion of the soul that has been severed and can be put into a horcrux) is able to be kept in their body. The reason I think harry is a horcrux theorys rest on this assumption is because if soul bits are not able to stay in the body, then they must either be instantaneously put into a horcrux, or they are instantaneously destroyed. If they are immediately destroyed then Voldy's soul bit would not have the chance to go into Harry. And, if they are instantly forced into a horcrux then the object would have to be prepared for soul absorbtion prior to the splitting of the soul and therefore the split bit of Voldy's soul would go into the object upon the AK backfireing and not Harry. In both cases, harry couldn't possibly be a horcrux. So, the Harry-horcrux theories assume that the soul-bit is able to be kept in the body and put into an object (thus making a horcrux) at a later time. I, will try to prove to you that the soul-bit can NOT stay in the body, and therefore (for reason I have just explained) Harry, can not be a horcrux.

Alrighty. So, according Harry-horcrux believers, the split bit of Voldy's soul (or Souldemort as I like to call him) went into Harry. Souldemort was released for 1 or more of 3 possible reasons. They are: 1). because Voldemort died. 2). Because Voldemorts body was destroyed. and 3). Because Voldemort had horcruxs.

Ok. So if Souldemort only left Voldemort because he was killed and the soul-bit inclined to go somewhere natural, then this would mean that anytime a witch or wizard kills someone the soul bit remains in them. If this is so, then anytime that witch or wizard dies wouldn't the soul-peice be released on the world much like souldemort was? In this case there would be many Harry-type situations. However, the the best of our knowledge, there are not many Harry-like situations. I assume you do not think Voldemort's soul is especially special and therefore all witches and wizards who kill have soul-bits in them. Perhaps you do not agree with me on this but as I can see no reason why you wouldn't so I am going to keep my assumption. This, however is where the plot thickins. I think that if every witch or wizard who kills is able to have soul-bits in them, then when they die, Like Voldy, those peices would have to be released on the world thus making Harry-like situations. I also know that to the best of our knowledge there are not many Harry-like situations. Therefore every witch or wizard must not be able to have soul bits in them, and if all others can't then Voldemort can't either and if Voldy can't then he would have to prepare an object to be a horcrux before hand and because of this Souldemort would have no reason to go into Harry..so Harry isn't a horcrux.

Now, though I do not know your exact thoughts, I assume you think that you think Voldy can have soul-bits in him. The way I understand your theory, it rests on this assumption. Also, if Voldy can have soul-bits in him then I think you would assume other witches and wizards can too. But, maybe you don't believe that Souldemort was realesed simply because Voldemort was killed (this would be a good belief I think based on the argument I just made ). Maybe you believe that Souldemort was realesed not because Voldemort died, but more because he was literally destroyed and In doing so you create an anomoly in his situation that makes him unlike other witches and wizards who have both killed and been killed. Thus, the holes that my last paragraph made in your theory are resolved because now the death of Voldemort is unlike other deaths and because of this Voldemorts soul-bits are permitted to act differently from those of other witches and wizards. So, Harry could be a horcrux.

BUT WAIT! If you believe this then you must consider something else. other wizards have literally been destroyed also. In the only 6 year time span the books have covered we know of 1 wizards forsure who was supposedly destroyed, Petter Pettigrew. So, literally destroying someone is a way that a wizard can kill someone. I believe it is very much logical that wizards, when at war, would have used this spell to kill others or multiple people at once, and because they are at war it seems logical, to me, that the people they would be killing would have also killed someone. Therfore, there would have been previous Harry-Voldemort type relationships in the past and present. But as far as we know harry's situation is something no one has ever seen before. So, "Souldemort was realeased because Voldemort was destroyed" does not hold up.

So far I think I have proven that two of the possible three reasons the soul-bit (that was allowed to stay in the body) could have been released, are not possible. If I can prove that all three are not possible then that must mean that there is no reason why it would have been realeased. And if it was in there it had no way to get out then then it either couldn't have been in there in the first place, or was in there but has no way of getting out. If it couldn't be in there in the first place, then Harry can't be a horcrux. If it is in there and can't get out, then Harry can't be a horcrux either.

So. 2 down, 1 to go...are you ready for it? Are you sure you're ready?

Ok here it is! The last and most logical reason that souldemort was able to go into Harry was because Voldemort had horcruxs and because of this souldemort couldn't take the natural course a soul would and was anchored here and also was inclined to go to the closest thing that felt natural. Harry, being human, would be the most natural thing, so Harry would be a horcrux. But I must ask you, if one can kill people and build up soul-bits inside them to be released into the nearest living human at death if they have a horcrux, then what really would be the point of multiple horcruxs? If a horcrux can essantially create itself upon the death of its body then you aren't ever going to die as long as you kill atleast one person in the time between deaths. And actually, if you kill mulitple people you are going to create multiple horcuxs upon being killed. Furthermore, Voldemort killed both Harry's parents IN ADDITION to trying to kill Harry so we know he has atleast 3 soul bits in him (if he is allowed to keep them). If Harry is infact a horcrux, then how do you account for the other two soul-bits? Are atleast two other people also Voldy horcruxs? This means Voldy has like 9 now. Or did all three of them make there home in Harry? lol I having a hard enough time believeing even one could be in Harry so you'll have a pretty hard time convincing me that atleast 3 of vouldemorts soul-bits are in Harry.

Because of all this I think it is pretty clear that the body, indeed, can not play host to soul-bits. And, as I have stated earlier, I belive horcrux-harry theories rests on the assumption that the body can. Why? Because if the body can not play host to soul-bits then Voldemort MUST have already prepared an object for the soul-bit to instantaneously be forced in to upon being seperated from the soul. Because of this, the soul-bit (or more like soul bits) would have no reason to go into Harry, thus, Harry cannot be a horcux.

[NickHilton]

I don't think Harry is a Horcrux because when Dumbledore says Nagini is a Horcrux he says that is why he has so much control over it, i don't think he has that control over harry.

[gwenhwyfar]

Ok, I think I would like to see a slightly more succinct reiteration of the ideas that have been presented throughout the argument so far, in their most basic form. In spite of the fact that I am one of several long-winded folks about here, I will make the attempt.... forgive me if I fail... or if I annoy you

As the argument stands, there are only four options to choose from;

1. Yes, Harry is a Horcrux and;

a) Voldie did it on purpose.
Not too many people are giving any thought to this one, and rightly so in my opinion. There is a very simple and fairly conclusive argument against this one- that the protection Lily gave Harry by choosing to die rather than give him up would have prevented it. End of story.

b ) It was an accident.
This is one of the most popular arguments, and also my second-favourite of the options. There have been many brilliant and detailed posts on the subject, but the basics go like this;
In the event that it is possible to perform some of the elements of the horcrux spell in advance-specifically regarding the soul piece to be broken off, rather than the vesses in which it was to be placed, LV would very likely have done so, in order to minimize the amount of time he is required to remain at the 'scene of the crime' on the night Harry's parents were killed. The necessary element of murder had been carried out (some support that the murder of James and Lily was sufficient, others believe that in casting the AK on Harry with full intent, Voldie had fulfilled the requirement even though it ultimately failed). The pre-programmed soul bit was broken off and did exactly what it was programmed to do- except that the program failed to specify a destination, so it chose it's own. Because of the emphasis placed on the 'natural state' of the soul, a natural state being whole (or innocent) and either in a living person or on the other side of the veil, and because, with the existence of other horcruxes it was unable to choose the latter, it went into the nearest living, innocent body it could find- Harry.

2. Harry is not a Horcrux and;

a) Voldemort never tried to or even thought about making him one.
Personally, I think that there is way too much emphasis on the scar, and the link between Harry and Voldemort- the transferred powers, the mental connection- even to experiencing the emotions of the other, never mind the whole "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" conversation- to really support this idea. However, it too has a lot of supporters who have supplied plenty of good arguments against the other three possibilities to completely discount it. Sol has already posted many of these, and, I think has done more justice to them than I could, so I'll leave it there.

b ) Voldemort tried (and failed) to make him one.
Get ready- many of you already know that this one is my brainchild, and I'm extremely fond of it. Not only that, but I've been keeping quiet about it for quite a while now- partly because people stopped challenging it and partly because I've been finding all the other arguments so interesting. So now, here I go again.

Everything about voldie's character says to me that this is exactly the sort of thing he would try- as summed up in PS movie--

[Hallia]

Sorry, Bandoth, but I have to disagree. Once the AK has touched Harry's body you can say someone has attempted murder, but if that person doesn't die in the end the one who intented to kill him/her hasn't commited murder, but attempted murder. This is how legal systems work. If you shoot someone with the intention of killing them but the bullet does not kill the person, you're no murderer, and you're charged for attempted murder. So I don't agree that murder is comited once the AK touches Harry's body= once the bullet hits its target. Would you say that if someone threw you down the stairs with the intention of killing you, but didn't, then that person committed murder?

[JohnStitcher]

heres my point of view -

Voldemort clearly intended to kill Harry with the AK. What good would a corpse be as a horcrux? Then again, think of the prophecy. If Harry is a horcrux, how could it ever be fulfilled? Harry would have to first have to destroy himself(or find some way to remove the piece of voldemorts soul). This would create a paradox(in the space time continuum that would destroy the entire universe). And, then only way creating a horcrux would have worked would be if 1.The intent to use Avada Kedavra, even though it didnt work, was enough to split his soul. and 2. Voldemort would have to have known that Lily's love would protect Harry from the AK and harry would not die. Dumbledore makes it clear that Voldemort couldn't have forseen this, having no understanding of love.


Also, most of the arguments I have seen for this are based on the presumption that there are 7 horcruxes. This is impossible. Voldemort split his soul into 7 pieces(we assume, and all we have is that assumption.) BUT, most people seem to overlook the fact that at any given time he must be USING part of his soul. He would put 6 parts into horcuxes, and the seventh would be in his body. This was destroyed when the Avada Kedavra rebounded.Down to six total soul pieces. Quirrel gone, down to 5, diary destroyed, down to 4. RAB, down to 3(if he succeeded), Ring, down to 2, He currently is alive, leaving one more horcrux.

[Quality Quidditch Supplies]

I don't know where you get Quirril being a Horcrux...the part of the soul that was acting as Voldemort the person was possessing Quirril, but it didn't make him a Horcrux. Though I think you are right on there only being six. Seven is the magical number, why split it into eight? But this discussion belongs in another thread...

I think that Harry is a Horcrux, and don't think that total destruction of the world as we know it would ensue; the prophecy says neither can live while the other survives, but it says nothing about one surviving. Both could die. Harry could kill Voldemort and then die himself, destroying the last Horcrux, or Harry could die, leaving Voldemort mortal, and someone else could kill Voldemort, etc. It's possible.

And I don't think that Voldemort meant to make Harry a Horcrux. Based on the descriptions of Horcruxes and how advanced the magic is, I presume that it takes at least some earlier preparation, waiting only for the murder to split the soul and then the final transfer to the object meant to be the Horcrux.

Voldemort had already committed two murders before turning on Harry, and I don't think that splitting your soul is an entirely voluntary thing. If you take the earlier preparations for the creation of the Horcrux plus the two preceeding murders, plus the sudden destruction of the body which had housed both pieces of the soul, you get something that has probably never happened before.

It's important here that you understand that I don't think the Horcruxes are capable of independent thinking and actions. The Diary was a special case, with the memory and the Horcrux combined to create something different. The other objects, without any magical abilities (i.e. the locket, cup, etc.) I don't believe have this ability to manipulate people. Therefore I don't think that the piece of soul that would be entrusted to the Horcrux contains any kind of mind or brain, but is simply a sort of life essence that is expelled with AK.

So now we have two pieces of soul; Vapourmort and the Horcrux piece. Vapourmort, still able to think and act and feel, immediately flees. The Horcrux piece, however, without having been told which inanimate object to inhabit, would simply rush into the first available object or human; Harry.

I think that Voldemort didn't mean to make Harry a Horcrux; he's many things, but stupid is not one. He was trying to kill Harry right then, why waste a piece of his soul?

But we're talking about circumstances that have never happened before or ever will. Everything concerning that night is unique. None of this has ever happened before, so everything we talk about is abstracts and presumptions. This is what I believe, I think it fits the requirements necessary to allow Harry to be a Horcrux. It's possible, and I think it could be probable.