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From: The Back of Beyond
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Here you go, guys - brand new shiny thread
I'm not asking that newcomers read all six threads that have gone before of course, but if you *could* just briefly glance at the last few posts of the previous thread which can be found here in the Archive, it would help you to have an idea of the recent discussions.
The 'Good Snape' arguments seem to be a little more common during the last few posts, so we could use a few more 'Evil Snape' arguments to move the debate along a little.
There is an interesting third option that came up during the latter part of the last thread which is that perhaps Snape isn't truly loyal to either Dumbledore or Voldemort and is only looking after himself which I think is worth considering and some good evidence was posted in support of that. To reflect that, a new poll option has been added...or will be in a second when I do it...
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I think that over the years, Snape has become quite good at choosing those instances where his actions can be construed as proof for both sides, depending on how you explain it.
Sort of like widening that narrow edge on which he stands, so to speak. Giving him a little bit of footing, making it possible for him to act at all without giving his true allegiance away.
I believe that he has had long periods of being allied to nothing besides himself, and also a period in his past (quite short, actually) in which he allied himself to Voldemort, and that at the present time he is firmly on the side of Dumbledore, to the point of sticking his neck out for the terminally stupid and ungrateful, and it gnaws at him that it might be better for his personal safety if he allied himself to no one. But I'd say he is committed, even if he doesn't see the good of innocence in quite the same way as Dumbledore.
QUOTE (Michelle)
Anywho...Bumblebee...I didn't really mean to imply that he was reminding people of his allegiances...more that he wasn't afraid or ashamed to admit to that part of his past. It also, of course, should have been proof enough of Voldemort's return for Fudge, he just chose not to see it like that. I just meant that if it was Voldemort's wish for his comeback to remain quiet, I would have thought that Snape would have slipped away into the background and kept quiet, pretending to be oblivious to the whole thing. Or at the very least, he could have just kept the fact that his Dark Mark was burning to himself. I'm just wondering why he would want to scupper Voldemort's plan is he was really on his side, do you know what I mean? I do agree though that it was a demonstration of his loyalty to the Ministry - the only question we have then, of course, is did he do that because he was acting under Voldemort's instructions to keep showing his loyalty, or is it because he truly *is* on Dumbledore's side?
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QUOTE
[...]at the present time he is firmly on the side of Dumbledore, to the point of sticking his neck out for the terminally stupid and ungrateful, and it gnaws at him that it might be better for his personal safety if he allied himself to no one
Ooh, I absolutely loved the way you put that!! That's so true - that's certainly the view of Snape that I've always held, personally. I think that could explain Snape's actions wonderfully - both the good and the bad, but it ultimately would leave him firmly planted on the good side - something I would far rather believe. I have more to say about that, but I'm going to be late for work if I don't shift myself so I'll drop by again later!
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i think that dumbledore told snape about the horcruxes and snape knows everything. but i still think he is good and really betraying voldemort because i dont think dumbldore would trust him to that extent for no reason. i mean his apology about the prophecy thing is not enough for such a big trust by dumbledore.. i think severus will help harry in finding the horcruxes but will eventually die in the book. as to why he killed dumbledore...well he done the unforgivable curse and he wouldnt want to die although it may have been dumbledore who asked him to do it in a case like this. snape could have told dumbledore aboout his meeting with narcissa and so he was just trying to cover up his real side!
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Patience is power. Power can change almost everything. YOU are myPatience! ♥~♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain, cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive because remember .. you only have one Life to Live!!♥~♥ Merry Christmas.
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From: Number 12, Grimmauld Place
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ok honestly as much as i hate to say it i finally came to the conclusion that snape is a good liar and is most likely on voldemorts side, but either way he is a good liar, whether hes good bad or indifferent, because he atleast tricked one of albus or tom, i want to say hes good but right now my heart isnt with it, i reread the 2nd chapter and i think its less of a lie than his hogwarts life, it seems he is more of a deatheater person.
PS oh and i was reading hbp for clues, and on pg. 195 (US) when harry is going to dumbledores office he hides from trewalney who is talking to herself...
2 of spades... conflict 7 of spades... a bad omen 9 of spades... violence knave of spades... a dark troubled man, who may be mad at the questioner...
i did this from memory so if someone else can find the real quote please post i dont have the time
but i was thinking why would jkr put this if it wasnt important it just seems to interesting to be "filler"
so i thought about what happens after this...
conflict- well hagrid over hears albus and snape arguing a bad omen- the dark mark over the castle violence- snape killing dumbledore!
now the next part im a little confused, a dark troubled man... well snape could be considered dark, because of his obsession with the dark arts, and troubled... he doesnt want to kill dumbledore but made the vow, and if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, then snape would be mad at the questioner right?
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK!!!
oh sorry bout the double post didnt mean too
This post has been edited by hp6: Jan 17 2006, 11:33 PM
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Once I rose above the noise and confusion Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high... S.P.I.M.F.//I.N.V.A.I.D. FanFic-- Harry's Final Fight--Chapter 5
All good- double post has been deleted. On a side note though, can I please ask you to edit your signature to fit in with the rules- there's not meant to be any more than 5 lines of text (Although that IS one of my favourite songs, by a great band ), so maybe it can be squeezed together a little more
Yah! A sparkling new thread! I am loving the new poll mate--- completely different take on things from the old poll
I'm still on the Snape is loyal to Dumbledore side of things, however I am open to the Snape is in it for himself suggestion. A little cliched perhaps, as it would be one of those 'haha! I've fooled you all' moments.
I love your wording Bumblebee- that's a very my-minded way of putting it . You'd have to wonder yourself at times why you'd be sticking your nose out for people who just make you roll your eyes and wish for a sledgehammer.
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QUOTE
2 of spades... conflict 7 of spades... a bad omen 9 of spades... violence knave of spades... a dark troubled man, who may be mad at the questioner...
i did this from memory so if someone else can find the real quote please post i dont have the time
but i was thinking why would jkr put this if it wasnt important it just seems to interesting to be "filler"
so i thought about what happens after this...
conflict- well hagrid over hears albus and snape arguing a bad omen- the dark mark over the castle violence- snape killing dumbledore!
now the next part im a little confused, a dark troubled man... well snape could be considered dark, because of his obsession with the dark arts, and troubled... he doesnt want to kill dumbledore but made the vow, and if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, then snape would be mad at the questioner right?
I like this alot, I think this is an excellent and probably accurate translation. At the same time, TRelawney is babbling about DD not listening to her warnings about the lighting-struck tower, and trouble or something there. It could be very plausable that Trelawney was on to something. Now if my theory is correct and DD's death was planned or even staged (for the DD's alive hopefuls), he purposely shunned her away because he knew she was right. On top of this canon, there are other questionable events that help the "planned theory"
1) Snape's look of disgused in the tower 2) He ran straight up to the tower, he knew where DD and Draco were 3) He warns Harry that he needs to close his mind and use non-verbal spells to beat him 4) DD and Snape have a heated discussion in the open on Hogwarts grounds where Hagrid overheard- If Hagrid was close enough to over hear them, DD must've known he was there - perhaps purposely to tell Harry for some reason 5) Snape shows a little remorse in OotP when he questions the dog chasing Harry up the tree in Harry's memories 6) Trying to get Draco to tell him the plan 7) Healed DD at the beginning of HBP 8) He was the one DD wanted when he got back from the cave
That's all I can think of right now. Gotta go, Boss is coming.
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"It's not who I am, but what I do that defines me !" - Most Notable for: CREATION OF THE BOUNCEBACK POTION Occupation: Head of the Department of Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures Wand: 12 3/4 Red Maple Dragon Heartstring quite supple___Maurader name: Wily Animagus:Fox___Patronus: Cheshire cat___Pet: Snowy owl
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id be glad to modify my signature
and im glad that i didnt seem to much like a "space cadet" with the whole predicting thing it just doesnt seem like jk would put it there just to fill the book, its like shes trying to see what we pick up maybe? i dont know but it seems like it fits
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Once I rose above the noise and confusion Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high... S.P.I.M.F.//I.N.V.A.I.D. FanFic-- Harry's Final Fight--Chapter 5
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Trelawney's predictions are just one of those ironic things. She (Trelawney) thinks she is very good at Prophecy, Gazing in Crystal Balls, Teacup Reading, etc. etc. and she has been making so many bogus predictions that she doesn't seem to know that they are bogus any more... meanwhile, she doesn't have a clue about the two real prophecies that she has made, and she distrusts the real omens that pop up in the cards.
In other words, Trelawney seems to be more comfortable with bogus Divination than with the unsettling visions she gets during the moments that her real talent comes through. And she is so desperate to have the wizarding world believe in her talents ... she is probably so bent on keeping her visions understandable that she is effectively blocking her own talents except at those rare moments.
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OK, i have this crazy idea (but then again, most of my ideas ARE crazy!) that came to me when you brought up the trelawney thing: what if pro. trelawney was with voldemort the whole time!? what if shes a death eater? i know shes not exactly what you would call death eater material, but what if she was in contact with snape the night that she had the interview with professor dumbledore, and even though she didnt mean to make the prophecy then, maybe she thought that she could get snape and lv some inside information from dd? And was it just a coincidence that Hogwarts needed a new divination teacher just at that time?
Ok, i know that one was a little out there!
Now, to support you guys theory: In OoTP, Chapter 26 (seen and unforeseen), page 596, its talking about how Umbridge sacked professor trewlawney, but dumbledore just went and found Firenze, and heres a part of that page: "...it is my wish that Professor Trelawney continue to live at Hogwarts" At this, Professor Trelawney gave a wild little laugh in which a hiccup was barely hidden. "No-no, I'll g-go, dumbledore! I sh-shall l-leave Hogwarts and s-seek my fortune elsewhere---" "No," Said Dumbledore sharply. "It is my wish that you remain, Sibyll."
Now, was it just dd being courtious towards trelawney, or was there some hidden meaning, some other reason dd wanted her to stay there at the castle?
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without *fear* there would be no *bravery* - Saphira,Eragon
I don't think Telawney is a Death Eater... If she was, Voldemort wouldn't have made a mistake with the prophecy, would he? Althoug, Trelawney doesb't remember her real prophecies, so maybe... but then she'd have to predict her own predictions, contact Snape... too confusing. Possible... but a little too complicated.
As for Sumbledore letting Trelawney stay, he probably had many reasons. You could interpret that to be one of them, but the main reason was he didn't want Voldemort to get ahold of the onewho made the prophecy in the first place.
You guys hurt my believing Snape was loyal to Voldemort, but I really like the new "loyal to himself" idea, it fits well enough, and it would make sense.
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bumblebee,
QUOTE
Trelawney's predictions are just one of those ironic things. She (Trelawney) thinks she is very good at Prophecy, Gazing in Crystal Balls, Teacup Reading, etc. etc. and she has been making so many bogus predictions that she doesn't seem to know that they are bogus any more... meanwhile, she doesn't have a clue about the two real prophecies that she has made, and she distrusts the real omens that pop up in the cards.
i dont know if i understand this, i think that maybe this was rowlings way of telling us something, kind of like when she had hermione tell krum how to say her name.
karsh,
my belief is that dd didnt want trewalney to fall into the wrong hands, aka voldemorts, because it was his duty to make sure he didnt find out the prophecy, and i guess he thought that even if trewalney didnt know it vl could maybe still get her to retell it? i dont know if this is possible but maybe dd didnt know either and he was just making sure?
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Once I rose above the noise and confusion Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high... S.P.I.M.F.//I.N.V.A.I.D. FanFic-- Harry's Final Fight--Chapter 5
now the next part im a little confused, a dark troubled man... well snape could be considered dark, because of his obsession with the dark arts, and troubled... he doesnt want to kill dumbledore but made the vow, and if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, then snape would be mad at the questioner right?
wow wow wow! triple wow!! i really like this one... you know this is very much JKR's style... giving important clues that just make you laugh at..and then...they turn out to be fundamental!!! a dark troubled man.. yes it may wery well be snape.. troubled because he does not know what to do.. and he has got mad at the questioner..when asked by dumbledore to kill him... yes i think you hit the point there!!! you know i'm always looking for those little things in my second reading thurough the books..thanks a lot for this one.
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when you smile when no one else is around, thenyou really mean it!!
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MDV
QUOTE
wow wow wow! triple wow!! i really like this one... you know this is very much JKR's style... giving important clues that just make you laugh at..and then...they turn out to be fundamental!!!
well now you put it that way, haha, at first it seemed sorta like a loona thing, but now that i think about it it is her style, its like telling us how to say hermiones name in the GOF, and putting dd's info in harrys first wizard card before we knew about flamel, im sure there are others
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Once I rose above the noise and confusion Just to get a glimpse beyond the illusion I was soaring ever higher, but I flew too high... S.P.I.M.F.//I.N.V.A.I.D. FanFic-- Harry's Final Fight--Chapter 5
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I must admit the he did it for himself is a really good point. There's many possibility that all fit perfectly. (I want Snape to be good; my nick is rogueisgood [rogue=Snape])
First, at first, Snape got enrolled with the Death Eater to see what is the real power he want to have. He want to see how to rules; to be with servants. Snape's secret plan...
He decide to go see the other power, the love... Voldemort's death at the same moment is just a coincidence... Dumbledore was perfect. He could protect him, and he could get a lot of infos.
When Voldemort got back, Snape was troubled. The 2 that he was suppose to kill were back. So, he chose the easy way. He spyed Dumbledore and Voldemort, to give info to each other... So, if they know about the other, they're going to kill each other... So, Snape got info about the two, and he know they're going to be kill. Dumbledore may have plan is death, but it was what Snape was waiting for...
Snape knew more spells than 7th years students...
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Thursday, Montreal vs Philadelphia Montreal Stats: 20-8-5 45 points, 4th in East, 5th in League Anaheim got a good start, hey pix
Who Is Snape Really Betraying?, Thread 7 - New Poll Options
Jan 17 2006, 10:29 AM
