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[Snapelover]

This is the place where all of you who have wonderful theories about that night, can come in and state your case.

So Many things happened and so many things are left unanswered. Here is where you can discuss things like:

Did RAB switch the Horcrux locket that night?

Were other people allowed on the school grounds that night when Dumbledore lifted the wards on the grounds?

An many other things. (Just make sure it doesn't cover too much on already existing topics It is inevitable that you will touch on existing topics, but try now to dwell on them. ie: who is RAB. )

This should prove to be interesting and I hope that we don't get too far off the mark. But we thought it would be a great place to discuss these issues and then if you are posting in another thread, you can reference this thread in order to prove your point. See how that works?

Enjoy.

This post has been edited by Snapelover: Feb 22 2006, 10:32 PM

[hp6]

wow first on both, record! well snapelover really deserves the credit, haha i believe when last we chatted we were discussing what dd's muttering of ancient languages was all about....

it is my belief that he was taking off the enchantment stopping anyone from flying into the grounds and he had removed just enough of it when they crossed the boundary and that is why the broom shuddered, my guess is that, if dd had not removed it they would have been sent flying way off their brooms but dd had removed enoguh for a quick shudder. Now i also have a question, people have been saying that the des knew he had taken off the wall spells, and that is why the headed for the gates, my question is how would they know? my guess is the spells kept you out, but if you were in you could leave and since no order members were stationed at the gate because they were fighting the des got out peacfully, well except snape, he had harry on his heels


Hey snapelover, if you see this i meant to ask you on the other thread but it slipped my mind, can we bring things from this thread to the RAB thread and vice-versa if the information is consistent with both?

peace yall

[kirkstain]

interesting it is indeed, but i believe DD only removed the enchantments to enter then placed them back on, he would only not put them back on if the person coming to do the switch was coming from the outside or returning. I still believe the switch was made by the brutal faced DE, he seemed to just disappear after, no more mention of him after Harry stunned him, so I would imagine he used the invisibility cloak to go down to DDs body and make the switch. He wasnt with Snape and co when they left, so where was he?

[Just the Droobles]

I think we should just start fresh on conversation and not really drag anything from the archived topic in here. It would help to not confuse anyone.

I think we all need to answer a few questions first, so we know where everyone stands. It might be helpful.

Switched Pre-cave or Post-cave?
I believe it was done pre-cave. I don't believe there was a time frame where a switch could've been done. And it seemed like eveybody was pretty busy doing something else in that scene, so I can't really think of anyone who I would think would have been able to make the switch.

Were the Enchantments On, Off, or Partial?
I believe they were completely active. I think Dumbledore wouldn't have risked the safety of everyone on the grounds, especially the students, and taken the enchantments off. I think he muttered somthing that would allow him to pass through, hence the bump Harry felt on his broom as they passed. If they had been taken completely off, Harry would not have felt anything.

I also believe that Dumbledore was not aware that he was going to die that night. I think that he had caught wind of Draco's thing with Voldemort, and Snape and DD had a talk about it. I think that DD asked Severus to be the one to kill him if it ever came down to it. I think DD would've looked out for the best of hs student, even if the student (Malfoy) had made a really terrible decision. I don't think DD wanted Malfoy to be labeled as a killer for the rest of his life, so he asked Snape to be the one to do it.

I guess that's all for now. I'll let that brew in this cauldron for a while.

[kirkstain]

there was a time frame actually mentioned in my last post, there is no-one that we can rule out for the possible switch, but it does seem quite likely that the switch happened pre cave. The only reason why we think that it could have been the brutal faced man is because we know nothing about him, he is a mysterious character so he could turn into anybody for all we know. Maybe he is Rabastan seeing we know nothing about him either

[El Barto]

Hey, you're joining my side kirkstain (brutal-faced death eater). Now I at least have two others...but I don't think he's Regulus anymore just ask JTD OR I can tell you...what if the Black family tree is magical and it records the deaths...that would mean that Regulus really is dead....so the brutal-faced DE is someone else (but you can still read my fanfic if you want).

As for Dumbledore putting the enchantments on, I don't see when he had time. When they landed, he told Harry to go get Snape, then they heard footsteps...and the rest is history. Maybe when Snape surveyed the scene he realized that Dumbledore and Harry had come in on brooms. In fact, Gibbon placed the mark over the Astronomy Tower...why there? Someone said that he came back down because maybe he didn't the fact the he might face Dumbledore alone (I think it might have McGonnagal who said that). So they knew they were coming in on brooms then...or at least Draco did...because Gibbon could have just been trying to place the mark as high as he could...

If the DE's knew they were coming in on brooms, wouldn't they figure that there they had the chance to apparate away after Dumbledore died? Or were they caught up in the moment and let Snape lead them through the castle so some might be caught along the way...but that runs the risk of members of the Order and students dying...

I think I just introduced something that made it even more complicated...or not...

[Just the Droobles]

[cesador]

[hp6]

JTD

[El Barto]

JTD, wasn't sure if you were asking me about Dumbledore putting the enchantments on...but yes, I meant putting them back on after landing on the tower. Gibbon was the one who put the mark up, but he was killed by the "big blond" death eater after he came out...but it was a mistake, he didn't do it on purpose...the blond was shooting everywhere.

[sas1901]

I agree that DD and Snape must have had some sort of pre-arrangement that Snape would kill him to save Draco, because that is the kind of man DD was. I also believe that DD would not have risked the lives of the students by lifting the enchantments on the castle grounds, and that he only temporarily lifted them to allow himself and Harry through. The Deatheaters knew that they were arriving on brooms because of Madame Rosmerta *where they got the brooms* while she was under the Imperius Curse. I think that the Deatheaters thought the enchantments were still on the castle after DD was killed because they ran instead of apparating out... or maybe they just didn't know that DD was dead, and the enchantments were lifted. Just a thought.

[lilly_P]

JTD

How can you say the enchantments, protection etc. was placed back on the castle? Dumbledore took them off to enter the grounds it dosen't say they were placed back on. If so then how did the DE get out of the school grounds? Unless Snape removed them as he had for Harry the night Harry was late to the start of school. The thing is the DE must have known the enchantments were off because they ran to the school grounds to escape. Why didn't they escape back through the cabinet. A much quicker exit than running out of the school and onto the grounds and out the gates don't you think?

I think your right. I don't think DD knew he was going to die that night either. I also don't think that LV confided to Snape what Draco's mission was even though he let Narcissa and Bellatrix think he did. I think Snape was fishing around to find out while he was talking to Narcissa. He made the Vow and then later realized too late that the mission was for Draco to kill Dumbledore. Therefor Snape had no choice. Or that he really did know and it was planned with DD that the Vow had to be made. I think Snape was trying to find out from Draco of how he was going to kill DD but Draco wouldn't tell him so Snape had no idea how Draco was going to do it or when.

Snape didn't know the DE were in the school that night until (Flitwick or was it Sprout, told him. I think that Snape was trying to stop Draco from the killing but saw he had no choice but to go through with the Vow as to not blow his cover or as to not die himself.

1. Harry & DD leave the school. DD places extra protection in the school by having the corridors patrolled by the DA and the Order.

2. Harry and DD see Rosemerta and then appriate together to the sea.

3. Harry & DD arrive at the cave and do the deed.

4. Harry and DD return and meet Rosemerta who tells them the Dark mark has been cast over the Tower. The DE does this to get DD back into the school. While before this DD tells Harry he must see Snape.

5. Dumbledore and Harry fly onto the school grounds but not before DD takes the enchantments off.

6. Meanwhile Snape is suppose to be in his room asleep but Flitwick finds him in the classroom and Snape knocks him out.

7. Draco has confronted DD and DD is trying to get Malfoy to come to the other side so they can hide he and his mother.

8. The rest of the DE show up and Ferir wants to see what DD tastes like.

9. Other DE are stopped from killing DD. Draco must do it.

10. Snape bursts into the room, stops, gazes at DD, and then does the AK curse along with another curse that takes DD's body from the tower.

11. The AK curse leaves the body limbs at strange angles and DD has blood from the side of his mouth where the side of his lips twitched before. Perhaps from the posion that was in the basin that he drank. Perhaps that is what really killed DD.

12. Snape & Draco make a run for it on the grounds and we never see Snape or Draco leave the grounds. Perhaps they are still hiding somewhere on the grounds.

[hp6]

ok guys heres my thoughts

well i think dd took the flight spell of, just that and never put it back on, we arent hinted that he did?

lilly i think the blood in his mouth was for effect, and at the most just the fall, but the potion could have done it no doubt!

now if the potion killed dd then wouldnt snape be dead? because niether he or draco had 'done the deed' and that was what the vow was about? right or wrong?

peace

[vulturemort]

Lilly,

I don't think that we needed to actually be told that the enchantments were put back on for it to have happened. How do we know that Dumbledore didn't simply provide an opening for them to pass through? We aren't told specifically what his mumbles did to the castle protection. I think that we have to base this on what we know of Dumbledore. He was willing to give his own life to protect one student and teacher (Malfoy and Snape). I doubt he would put all of the students at risk, especially while the castle was under attack.

If the death eaters knew that the enchantments were off, then they could have simply apparated off of the grounds. Couldn't they? Why would they go through all of the trouble of running to the gates? I think it is because Snape knows how to open the gates to get out. We were shown that he was able to open the gates when Harry was late arriving after the train thing with Malfoy. Perhaps that is why it was Snape, and not Hagrid that came to the gate. JKR wanted us to know that Snape was able to open the gates.

Finally, this may be a stupid question, but why were we interested in whether or not the enchantments were lifted in the first place. I know that it tied into the Snape is R.A.B. theory, but I can't remember how. Could you refresh my memory?

Crsdba

If the brutal faced death eater was responsible for the switch, how did he come out of the hex that Harry hit him with? Wouldn't he at least have been out for a bit? I suppose only JKR could say definitely how long he had to be out, but it seems like we didn't hear any more from him because he was unconcious. We didn't hear any more about Fenrir after Harry hexed him did we? I think there was a group of death eaters that had to have been captured or were killed that night.

I think you raise some very good questions about why they were in the tower and how the whole sequence of events worked out. We really should think about that a bit more. How much of that night went according to the death eaters plan and how much of it went according to Dumbledore's plan.

JTD

It isn't just Dumbledore that provided the enchantments. It says early in the book that Rufus Scrimgeour and the ministry had helped to increase the security measures at the school. I don't think that Dumbledore alone created the protective spells. That is definitely something that McGonical would have to deal with that night I think.

HP6

I also agree that Snape must have killed Dumbledore, not the potion, or else the unbreakable vow would have killed Snape. This is also solid evidence that Dumbledore is most definitely dead.

[kirkstain]

can somebody please quote the exact wording of the unbreakable vow made so we can know exactly what Snape needed to do?
the enchantments is just each persons opinion and there is no fact in what we are saying, but i have to agree with vulturemort. If they knew the enchantments were off then they would have apparated. BUT they didnt, they went out the gates, and they di this because Snape knew how.
it never mentions what happens with the other death eaters i dont think, if im wrong please correct me. We dont know the whereabouts of the brutal faced one (BFDE) and fenrir. The curse doesnt hold for too long, BFDE would have been able to move soon after, and use the invisibility cloak if he saw it to get away to wherever undetected, whether it be to escape or make a switch. Harry doesnt go back to get the cloak, doesnt he? i dont believe theres a mention of the cloak after at all. They may have escaped through the cabinets, i dont think Snape went through there because he didnt know that was how the DEs came in, thats why he ran for the gate and Draco would have followed him