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[Just the Droobles]

I don't mean to shoot down everything you say, but there are some things that I am going to disagree with. Your theory was very well thought out, and I appreciate that. Not very many people come in with new ideas.

First off, I do believe that Dumbledore is dead. JKR said it herself, and I'm not going to try to argue with that, no matter how much I'd love to see Dumbledore again.

I do agree that no one had been to the cave before Harry and Dumbledore. Somehow it just doesn't make sense that someone else could have made it through all that when even Dumbledore needed help.

I disagree with your next point however. I never would think that Dumbledore would give the credit of Voldemort's demise to someone else. He may think Amelia was a respectable woman that suffered a terrible fate, but like he says, there are so many worse things than death. Plus, I don't think Dumbledore would turn this into a game. He has always called Voldemort Tom and I think he would always let Tom/Voldemort know that it was he, Dumbledore, that took his horcrux. Plus, the letter wasn't in his handwriting.

The ghost/poltergeist thing is an interesting point. I don't think it would have been Peeves...but I've always wondered how Dumbledore didn't end up worse than he did because of that fall. Where was Fawkes?

The last bit about the locket and Snape seems a bit iffy too. I'm not sure you can just say Avada Kedavra to a locket and the horcrux within be dissolved. Dumbledore burnt his hand off with the ring, so I'm sure there's something a little more complicated than just saying Avada Kedavra.

Good theory (ies) though!! It is obvious you've done some real thinking.

[Albus Dumbledore]

but I've always wondered how Dumbledore didn't end up worse than he did because of that fall. Where was Fawkes?

You know I have been wondering just the same thing. I can't seem to make sense that Dumbledore's body was blasted off the topmost tower, and the only damage to the corpse was a trickle of blood from the lip. Another thing we must look at it the "odd angle" of his arms and legs that make him look as if he is sleeping. Wouldn't such a fall do a little more damage to him? I should think so.

Another point to look at is the dramatic ending of "The Lightning Struck Tower". Dumbledore's body appears to be suspended against the Dark Mark, until it flows slowly like a rag doll past the rampart and finally out of site. Dramatic imagery to set the mood? or underlying activities not wholly apparent? Perhaps Snape, if he is on Dumbledore's side, which I think he is, killed Dumbledore on his orders, but out of respect, lowered his body to the ground with a nonverbal spell as he swept off the tower. If Snape is truly good, even though he killed Dumbledore, he would not want his body so brutally savaged.

I was just thinking.. JKR really "killed" Dumbledore. She had him hit with an Unforgivable Curse, of the killing kind... he was lifted off the highest tower and fell to the ground, and his body was enveloped in a column of flame and finally magically sealed in a white tomb. The logic within me is screaming he is gone for good... but my love of the character says "please be false overkill of the death of Dumbledore so he can come back".

~Albus

[Snapeisgood]

As Just the droobles, I don't want to break everything but bring an answer or another possibility to every points you did wrote.

Starting in the cave...I don't think that anyone else had been to that cave before Dumbledore and Harry, because 1 - the potion, after Dumbledore drank it, didn't fill back up...if somebody else had gone through that, there would have been no more potion in the basin. 2 - if Dumbledore (one of the world's most powerful wizards) needed Harry to get through the enchantments, how could any other wizard have possibly gotten through them? And some may say that whoever put the fake locket there could have put the potion there too, but think about that...Dumbledore couldn't even identify that potion. It would have taken an extremely powerful wizard to make a potion that Dumbledore wouldn't recognize.

Ok, so let's start. I'm not one of the fervant RAB is Regulus, but, we shall all consider the fact that kreachur could help Regulus in his way throuht the cave by drinking the potion (Maybe a reason why he is a little bit retarded these days, Sirius says it's because he was alone, but as we know, he left the house before Regulus died, and probably, before he could have gone to that cave). But, from what is written in the book, we don't see Regulus as a great potion maker, and the only possibilities are Snape and Lily. Slughorn says they are good, and Snape created spells, so he could easily create a potion no?

And ALSO!!! Has anyone considered the idea that Dumbledore might have put the locket there? Hear me out...I think that Dumbledore could have come to the cave with the fake locket, planning the whole time to exchange it for the real locket. I think the idea that R.A.B standing for "Regulas A. Black" is a little too obvious for Rowling. So, what else could it stand for? How about..."Remember Amelia Bones"? Amelia Bones was killed by Voldemort personally! Voldemort NEVER did the actual killing unless it was an extremely important person to him. He killed Harry's parents, tried to kill Harry, and...Amelia Bones?

In fact, if RAB could stand for another thing then a name, and would actually starts with Remember; Remember Amy Benson would be way much more better and significant for Voldemort when he would had came back to the cave. Voldemort brought Amy Benson into the cave, to do I don't remember what, but nothing good.

NOW, here's where it really gets interesting! Dumbledore "died" on top of the astronomy tower. Rowling mentions that specific tower earlier in the book, when Harry is talking to Nearly Headless Nick about Ron (but Nick thinks Harry is referring to Peeves). Harry asks, "Where is he?" And Nick replies (talking about Peeves), "Oh, he's up in the astonomy tower, banging around like usual." Ummmmmm...WHY would Rowling throw that in?? I think it's because Peeves was in the astronomy tower while Dumbledore was "being killed", and Dumbledore had worked something out with him, so that when Dumbledore was "blasted into the air, and seemed to hover under the moon for a second", Peeves (in an invisible state?) had caught Dumbledore, and lowered him to the ground in a way that would look like he was falling, but would not kill him.

I don't think Peeve helped out Dumbledore but I know there's another line more significant. When Harry asks Dobby to follow Malfoy, Dobby tells Harry something extremely important if you are a Snape is good fan.
I do not have the exact quote but it's something like this
"If Dobby doesn't satisfied Mr Potter, Dobby will throw himself from the highest tower"
The Astronomy tower is certainly the highest and as we all know, Dumbledore and Snape had a little discussion in the wood. Dumbledore probably wasn't satisfying one of Snape's desire.

Also, I think that when Snape did the killing curse, he definitely did the curse. His face contorted in real hatred...not in revulsion. BUT I think that he did not aim the curse at Dumbledore......but on the horcrux locket in Dumbledore's robe. When Dumbledore and Snape "looked at each other", I think that - through Occlumency - Dumbledore was telling Snape exactly where the horcrux was in his robes, so that to all appearances, Snape would kill Dumbledore, but in reality, he would be killing the horcrux. Dumbledore was definitely affected by this, in a similar way to how Harry was affected when the curse didn't kill him. That's why he was thrown into the air. Everyone else who had been killed by Avada Kedavra wasn't moved by the curse, they simply fell to the ground with a "suprised look" on their face. Dumbledore also may be affected by the curse in other ways, such as being weakened, or a scar, etc.

Snape couldn't had hitten the locket without hurting Dumbledore, and it could be hard to shot precisely when Dumbledore and him only had 5 seconds to talk to each other. Also, the hatred and revulsion could been from the action he had to do (remember Harry in the cave)

One last thing...some think that because Harry was released from the binding spell, that proves that Dumbledore actually died. But it doesn't say anywhere that only the person who cast the spell can lift it, so Snape could have lifted it from Harry before running out (Dumbledore could have told him Harry's location through Occlumency as well).

I would say that if you hit the ground from a fall of about 100m, you would be dead, if not before, when you finally get on earth. It could be that moment, when Dumbledore ended it's felt, that Harry got free.

but I've always wondered how Dumbledore didn't end up worse than he did because of that fall. Where was Fawkes?

can't say any better than Albus Dumbledore

[Just the Droobles]

Another point to look at is the dramatic ending of "The Lightning Struck Tower".

Perhaps I'm just being stupid here, but where in that chapter did lightning occur? It just dawned on me that I don't remember anything actually striking the tower. So...is this a metaphor? Or does it mean it has been struck in the past? Or did Harry bang his forehead on the wall and it was "lightning struck"? (hehe...couldn't help myself) No, but seriously. Why "The Lightning Struck Tower?"

I completely disagree with Kreacher being in the cave with anyone. I think the little booger is simply nutty and I in no way think that anyone would bring a house elf along anyway. Besides, no one would know unless they had extensive knowledge like Dumbledore that it would require two people to successfully make it through that cave. And even if they did know, who brings a house elf??

And I still disagree with anything that is Remember Ali Baba or whatever. Dumbledore (or whoever was clever enough to sneak off with a horcrux) would never give credit to someone else or not give credit to themself. People are too selfish.

Another thing about Snape AV-ing the locket as he hit Dumbledore, the locket was in Dumbledore's robe pocket. Snape's curse hit Dumbledore square in the chest. I don't think that a robe pocket would be a breast pocket, so I don't think that works.

Where was Fawkes?

Ah, I have finally presented a question that no one an answer.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Perhaps I'm just being stupid here, but where in that chapter did lightning occur? It just dawned on me that I don't remember anything actually striking the tower. So...is this a metaphor? Or does it mean it has been struck in the past? Or did Harry bang his forehead on the wall and it was "lightning struck"? (hehe...couldn't help myself) No, but seriously. Why "The Lightning Struck Tower?"

The Lightning Struck Tower refers to the tarot card that Trelawney pulled from her shawl and exclaimed "Calamity, Disaster". You can find different threads that speak of the tarot card and its meaning. What you will find is very compelling and fitting. I dont think there could have been a better chapter name. I suggest the "Official Trial Of Severus Snape" in the Great Hall for details on the Lightning Stuck Tower Tarot Card... I remember discussing it there.

Ah, I have finally presented a question that no one an answer.

I have an answer. It was planned.

~Albus

[Snapeisgood]

Where was Fawkes?

I guess everyone of us thought about it, but no one was brillant enough to just ask it here lol. This question is important when we consider the fact that Fawkes already saved Dumbledore's life by "eating" the Avada Kedavra, and that a phenix can teleport himself whenever he wants. Now, we can ask us another question, does the spell that forbid teleportation was still active during that moment, and if it was, does phenix abilities are affected too by that spell.
If Fawkes wouldn't had eaten the spell in fifth book, I guess none of us would had think fawkes could do such thing. We know from the chapter after (well, 2 after), Fawkes was near the school at that moment. Even if he didn't had the time to intercept the AK, he could just bring him slowly to the ground no? I must admit it's stupid because DD is already dead, but still.

The Lightning Struck Tower refers to the tarot card that Trelawney pulled from her shawl and exclaimed "Calamity, Disaster". You can find different threads that speak of the tarot card and its meaning. What you will find is very compelling and fitting

The problem is that it's still a vague card, because you can apply the thing for good and for bad. Some seems to be convincing as a proof of the planned thing, but other puts you in doubt.

[El Barto]

Why call it lightning struck? Does lightning typically leave a mark when a person dies (a noticeable one?)? You might as well say someone was killed by the Avada Kedavra curse if you haven't a clue as to how the person died when it appears they just fell over (when indeed they were struck by lightning). Being struck by lightning, like I said, leaves no mark, unless you look closely or live through it. It appears as though you have a light scar on you. Lets say that those who die via the killing curse don't have any mark upon them, which is true from what we read about the Riddles' death (they were presumed dead but the police had no clue how they died). Those who live are left with a scar, a lightning bolt, which makes Harry's scar so unique.

Dumbledore was essentially struck by killer lightning, like millions of others over the magical years. He then fell down off the tower, or was assisted in that event. So, maybe the lightning struck tower is referring to the killing curse itself.

And what if Fawkes was busy assisting the others? What if, them being caught up in the moment, thought that the Felix potion was keeping them alive when it was also Fawkes? That could have contributed to Fawkes's absence from his owner.

[proffesor]

I belive the locket was tooken pre cave even though dumbledore is agreat wizard other wizards could have made there way through i also belive snaped killed dumbeledore because he had no choice as much as i dislike snape i belives hes good for1 reason dumbledore would rather himself die then snape and draco and him and dumbledore probable discussed it

[pumpkinjuice]

I just started reading this thread for the first time, and have to say it had never occurred to me despite all the Who is RAB stuff in the DH forum, that the locket might have been switched after the cave rather than before DD got to the cave. But this idea intrigues me--it has always bothered me that the locket was on the ground next to DD's body, not in the pocket where he'd put it. Maybe I'm being picky, but the pockets in those robes strike me as being kind of deep and likely to tangle closed as the robes billow. The locket doesnt fall out of DD's pocket as he's broomsticking, after all, or when he lands on the tower, etc. But somehow it falls out when he goes over the tower? And especially if DD was lowered gently to the ground by either a Snape non-verbal spell or by Fawkes or by whatever, we would not expect the locket to come winding its way out of those pockets.

Having had a relative go out a sixth-story window onto concrete (and survive), it's amazing how little damage one can sustain with such a fall. DD landed on, I suppose, grass. The Tower was the tallest, but tallest in a building that is low enough to be walked up via stairs even by fairly old people. So the weird position of arms and legs struck me as a potentially appropriate amount of 'damage' to his body--especially since it would have been already limp from the AK and therefore lacking the rigidity of a living body, since rigidity is part of what leads to lots of damage when a body falls to the ground from low or high heights.

So, a switch. Who? The position of the locket would lead me to believe that someone else switched it while DD lay there on the ground. He did lay there a good long time before Harry got there, or anyone really as far as we know from Harry's vantage point. Or, DD had removed the locket from his pocket while he stood there chatting with Draco and the DE's and he dropped it from his hand as he landed or while he fell. This would mean that DD also had the real locket on him at the time of the AK, and that he himself was possibly intending to 'make the switch' that night in the cave and forgot (he was a little loopy, after all, and there were inferi all over the place).

If DD were intending to make the switch that night, why the note? I've been pretty confident that RAB is Regulus and that all the "Remember AB" stuff has been a stretch, until I just read this thread. Then it suddenly hit me that Remember Amy Benson written as RAB could very well have been something that DD had said to Tom Riddle during his time at Hogwarts, in the way of personal guidance, etc. I doubt DD would have said nothing more to Tom about his childhood exploits in the entire seven years of his time at school. What hit me as I was reading this thinking, 'could it have been DD?', is the memory of what DD says during the memorial speech about Cedric Diggory--he ends, in both the book and the movie --with "Remember Cedric Diggory" and he means it as an instruction to the audience.

"It is my belief -- and never have I so hoped that I am mistaken -- that we are all facing dark and difficult times. Some of you in this Hall have already suffered directly at the hands of Lord Voldemort. Many of your families have been torn asunder. A week ago, a student was taken from our midst.
"Remember Cedric. Remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldemort. Remember Cedric Diggory." (GF37)

Then as I was thinking about that, I remembered the howler:

An awful voice filled the kitchen, echoing in the confined space, issuing from the burning letter on the table.
"REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA."
Aunt Petunia looked as though she might faint. (OP2)

So, DD has a little track record of conveying powerful messages, including cryptic ones like to aunt petunia, with the word "remember....." followed by something.

Shoot, now I'm on the fence about Regulus and this whole set of issues about that night....

[zHailfire]

Hey

Good theories everyone. Anyways, Dumbledore's death seemed to occur pretty fast. I think that there is obviously more than meets the eye. Dumbledore froze Harry, that implies that he probably knew that something was going to happen. Even though Dumbledore may have died, he will still have to appear in Book 7. Again, his death was to sudden to have him removed. He still has a major role to play. Hary may be a powerful wizard, but he still needs his friends to help him Fight. He himself isn't a one man army...and i think that Dumbledore will still play an important role, even if he is dead, which i hope he isn't.

[lilypotterlovesjames]

I THINK THAT THE HORCRUXS ARE
DIARY
LOCKET
RING
VOLDEMORT
ITEM FROM
GRIFFINDORE OR RAVENCLAW
NAGINI
CUP

[evilplato]

Ok I know everyone has prob all ready read all these posts and will prob not look at this but here goes.

Last night i was re-reading HBP and in the chapter where they are on the tower I noticed a statement i had not noticed before.

DD tells Malfoy that Snape is working for him .
TO which Malfoy replies "He hasent been doing your orders, He promised my mother---"



then DD replies "Of course that is what he would tell you ,Draco , But---"



Now that responce sounds like DD knew nothing about the binding contract he made with malfoys mother.Which we all know to be true.

Just a new observation let me know what you think.

[El Barto]

At the time, Dumbledore was trying to stop Draco from both committing murder and killing him. He bluffed and lied to Draco, and it worked for a short time before Snape and the others arrived, and the rest is history...at least thats how I see it.

lilypotterlovesjames, please don't post caps and watch the one liners

zHailfire, I firmly believe that Dumbledore is dead. This is one of the threads to debate it but I won't get into that. I also agree, though, that he still has a part to play a la the portrait in the headmasters office. He can still give information that way. I think he froze Harry on the tower so he could hear everything that went down and not get killed as well.

Great analysis Pumpkinjuice. I'm glad this thread got you thinking outside the box, or what have you The cryptic messages by Dumbledore, I didn't think of that. Perhaps there is indeed more to that than meets the eye. "Remember Cedric", and "Remember my last, Petunia" are sort of warnings (not threats). Sort of like telling people that if you think about how bad things are going, or who has fallen because of an evil entity, remember this person and hopefully everything will be all right. Or, in the case of Petunia, it was a warning (which I think we don't know the whole story behind) to keep Harry there until he turns 17. Not that any of this has anything to do with what you wrote...

Remember Amy Benson, like you said, would (if we use his crypiticism (is that a word?)), would be like telling Voldemort to calm down. If he used it at school while Tom was there, then he'd have to say it directly to him or else it would be an inside warning (like an inside joke). Only he and Tom would understand the meaning. It would be as if he were telling him that whenever he did an evil thing, that he should remember what happened to Amy Benson (or what he did). But what about Dennis Bishop? He sort of disappears from the picture. Was what happened to Amy that much worse than what happened to Dennis for it to not warrant such a warning?

[Just the Droobles]

Ah, I have finally presented a question that no one an answer.

I have an answer. It was planned.

Fawkes was planned? My question was where was Fawkes. One of us is confused.

And I do remember that tarot card now. I'm having a lot of slow moments lately. I do need to reread the series again. For the third time. I know, only the third.

The calamity and disaster from the card may not really signify Dumbledore's death, but more of what is to come after Dumbledore's death. Everything may be very disorderly starting from that point on, and that's really understandable since Voldemort and all his DEs are back in action.

I still think that Remember Amy Benson or Amelia Bones or anyone else is a real streatch. Though your analysis was really awesome, pumpkinjuice. I don't know why Dumbledore would do that or why anyone else would. I don't think that Dumbledore would ever sign his own work with "Tom's" horcruxes under someone else's name. I think if anyone would want to stop Voldemort and let him know it was him, it would be Dumbledore. And since Dumbledore is such a great wizard, any normal wizard (such as Regulus) definitely wouldn't sign it under someone else's name because they would want to show it was them who caused his demise. The letter, to me, seems to have a feel of revenge about it, and if someone was seeking revenge, I think they'd really want to show that they got it.

[dan]

It is a shame that Dumbledore is dead, however the fact that Dumbledore showed Harry so much about Voldemort's past throughout the sixth book shows that perhaps Dumbledore knew he was going to die soon. The title of book 7, 'The Deathly Hallows,' could meen something along the lines of the ghosts of the dead that Voldemort has killed will help defeat him, maybe something to do with Dumbledore? So perhaps Dumbledore needed to die that night?