I realize the books don't say much about this, but does anyone else wonder what Lily and James did to "thrice defy" Voldemort? I have been wondering this ever since hearing the prophesy.

I'd like to hear your theories!

P.S. Forgive me if there is already a thread for this... I searched but did not find!

In my opinion, that part doesn't necessarily mean they fought him and got away each time. I think it could mean they denounced him three times in front of Death Eaters. Perhaps one of those 'defiant times' was when they went into hiding.

I dunno if anyone bothered to go on Dictionary.com to find the meaning of "thrice" and "defied".

Its an interesting find.

thrice
1.Three times.
2. In a threefold quantity or degree.
3. Archaic. Extremely; greatly.

Everyone assumes that thrice means three, but what if it takes the archaic meaning of greatly defied.

I find the second meaning of "defied" also interesting.

To refuse to submit to or cooperate with: ex. defied the court order by leaving the country.

What if Voldemort offered Lily Potter to be on his side, and she "thrice defied" him by saying no. Remember in book 1, when Hagrid says : "I'm surprised Voldemort never tried to get them on his side". Foreshadowing?....

Also why would Voldemort want Lily and James on his side?...I dunno... But it seems like he wanted Lily more than James?

El Verte Veritas, I looked up the dictionary term as well...but that was a while back as a sort of proof for another thread whose name was changed Forgot what it was called...

What you were mentioning is what I pretty much meant as well. It doesn't have to mean they physically fought...or magically...or even fought at all. I kind of agree that Voldemort, maybe, wanted Lily as a Death Eater...or something...I'll have to think about it some more.

Maybe there was an even greater reason Voldemort chose Harry over Neville...was Snape ordered to be at there to hear the prophecy? Sorry, that question was probably answered elsewhere...

JKR likes to foreshadow alot so you might be on with something there but I think that maybe just going into hiding might of been the "great defiance." (if I'm presuming that thrice means great not three.) I forget who says but it is said that once Voldemort wants to kill you theres nothing you can do. The Potters were members of the Ootp and then hid themselves away. So by hiding they were probably making Voldemort furious that he could do nothing about it and therefore defying his wishes to kill them.

Just a thought.

I didn't know that thrice could also mean "great." I can certainly see that definition fitting the circumstances... but I don't think that's what was meant. Here's why:

When Dumbledore is telling Harry about the prophesy (while Harry is doubting that it is about him), DD says that Harry has now defied Voldemort four times... a feat that neither his parents or the Longbottoms had been able to do. That makes me think that DD meant that both the Potters and Longbottoms has defied LV 3 times and now Harry had outdone them all by facing and winning against LV 4 times.

Also, I don't think that the Potters hiding out was one of the three because they went into hiding after the prophesy was made... the prophesy was WHY they went into hiding... so it seems that they must have defied LV 3 times before then.

Any thoughts?

i agree with you Fenixong, thrice meaning 3 and that they had defied voldie the 3 times before hiding. the prophesy said "who have defied him" (or something like that) not "who will defy him"

we know that Lily and James were in the Order of the Phoenix, and also that they were very talented in magic. so they were very likely involved with the major actions of the order, probably resulting in confrontations with voldie, leading to defiance of him. i mean, the whole order was defying him by their very existance - refusing to give in to his power. the potters, like the longbottoms were possibly more involved, in that they personally defied him.

thats what i always just thought, anyway. lets hope JK spills some details in the last book...?

I always thought that it meant the had defeated him three times. Maybe means 'met' him threee times. let him down three times. i really dont know, but i alwasy assumed defeadted him three times. I've never heard in teh books on three times when they defeated him so thats why i question my thought a little.

I'd probably go with the "three times" - although I didn't know that "thrice" could just mean greatly defy. Learn something new every day!

I'm betting at least one of the defy's was just Lily. We still don't know much about her, and we are supposed to learn something great about her in book 7, so perhaps she was behind much of the 'defying', perhaps moreso when we find out just what she was up to (there is a lot of theorising that she was an Unspeakable...which would bring us back to the Ministry and the Veil?).

...the 'defy' is before Voldemort went to the Potters 'that' night, isn't it? Its not just when Voldemort was wanting to kill Harry and James and Lily stood in his way, right?

I've read OOTP translation, and the word "thrice" was translated as "three times", so I don't think it means "greatly defy"

I don't know... call me crazy but I just can't help myself, it does remind me of the bible. "before the **** crows you willl have thrice defied me" or something along those lines. Big sorry about this very very bad quote but I never bothered to read the bible in any other language than my mother tongue so please forgive me. I'm absolutely shure the wording is not like my bad translatin.

With this accociation in mind I can't think of any other meaning of thrice than "three times"

did Nevilles' parents also defy VD three timeS? if so, what did they do? and harry's parents what did they do to anger him?

Hiya ace007. Welcome to the forums and VTM! I am sending you a pm, you can check at or near the top of the page.

Hi, ace007. I'm going to move this topic to the General Books forum, as I think it better fits there. I've also altered the title to make the topic easier to find and understand. Thanks.

passerby

Well, we never knew what Nevilles parents did but surely we will find out sooner or later in the 7th book I am guessing, as for Harry.. well I cant exactly remember, I think the prophecy was talking about the future that Harry would thrice defie him or his parents did, I dont know, I am tired and cant think.

We dont know what nevilles parents did but we know that they were tortured by Bellatrix and did defy The dark lord three times as did Harrys parents.

I know I've mentioned this in other threads, but don't you find it interesting how Bellatrix and the others tortured the Longbottoms after Voldemort was "killed", they wanted to know his whereabouts. Could it possibly be that the Longbottoms had some sort of insider secrets? Or were they just more important due to them being Auror's? Why did the Lestranges' and Crouch, Jr. go after them if nobody is supposed to know Voldemort has Horcruxes?

Maybe thrice defied means, not that they battled Voldemort three times, but denied him three times...such as, perhaps, James told Voldemort to leave, but they wound up fighting resulting in his death. Voldemort goes to Lily, and he asks her a few times to give up Harry. Maybe it doesn't have to necessarily be physical defying (if thats a word).

Could it possibly be that the Longbottoms had some sort of insider secrets?
Yes, maybe. It could also be possible that the Longbottoms knew where Harry was taken and that Bellatrix wanted to go after him, to kill him off, as revenge for killing Voldemort... Why would she want revenge?

I don't understand what El Barto meant with his or her last sentence, though. As far as we know, no one but professor Dumbledore, Harry, Ron and Hermiony knew about horcruxes. Oh, and professor Slughorn of course... then there's this R.A.B. who knows as well... but any indication that Death Eaters know of the horcruxes hasn't been given. So I don't think Bellatrix went after the Longbottoms to, rudely said, kill them off, because they had too much information on that part (it would be a good reason, though).

Marieke

What I meant was why would Bellatrix and the others go to the Longbottoms after Voldemort's "death", that is, they knew that something happened or else they wouldn't have gone to ask about his whereabouts; how did they figure he was still alive? Everyone else thought he had died and were suddenly being caught or changing sides.