I would first like to say hi, becasue im new and this is my first post.
Now most of us believe what we read in the harry potter series. I have to say me 2, but i think i have found the real truth which the prophecy speaks.
This might sound crazy but hear me out...

There is and have always been someone in the dark pulling the string. First i think it is important to start with what Tralawney says in the prophecy. Tralawney never calls Voldemort the dark lord but she never says that, she says' u know who' She might have been refering to someone else. If u really think and read over the prphecy u will im sure see a 3rd hiding in there. I think that 3rd persn is Grindelwald. The person Dumblare failed(or not) to kill but only defeted him. How do u know for sure that the person drinking the unicorn blood in book 1 was Voldemort? Ha? That was infact who i think Grindelwald lost in darkness powerless. Voldemort was with Quirrle insie the castle all the time.What im trying to say is that There is someone in the shadows not neccerly controling Voldemort but waiting in line. The dark lord is acting surreptitiously.Dumbladore's asnwer to Voldemort when he said" There is nothing worse than deat" was UR Quite wrong. If a person remains conscious of what is hapneing but powerless to act, that could be worse than death.
Two People In one

First off, let me say hi there! **waves** Welcome to the forums!! I love your avatar and sig, BTW...very cool!

Right then...mmm...very interesting points you made there. Nice theory....

However, there are a couple of things...firstly, we know that Quirrell was drinking the unicorn blood for Voldemort, even though he didn't want to. Voldemort tells us that when Harry meets him towards the end of PS, so it couldn't have been Grindlewald that time.

I also think it's pretty much a given that Trelawney was referring to Voldemort because 'You-Know-Who', 'He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named', 'The Dark Lord' and 'Tom Riddle' are wholly, undeniably all the same person...Voldemort. I don't think there's any doubt about this because JKR said in an interview (think it was the Edinburgh one) that Tom Riddle and Voldemort were the same person. I think she said that because there have been quite a few rumours flying around the internet that they might be two seperate entities... JKR has never referred to anyone else as 'Y-K-W' or 'H-W-M-N-B-N' (sorry...I'm too lazy to type it all out again!) I don't think she's go down that road...she'd just confuse everyone, particularly the younger readers.

All that being said, I do agree with you that the wording of the prophecy is highly ambiguous and that there is scope within there to indicate a possible third person. Personally, I've always thought that this person would be either Wormtail or Neville...I've given my reasons on another thread somewhere - the official HBP one I think - so I won't repeat them all here now.

Your observation about Grindlewald being important though is a good one...I think that there's some significance there too, just not in a way that involves the prophecy. I think that his defeat in 1945 might possibly be tied to WW2 or Hitler in some way, but that's just a guess really, there's no evidence about that...

I think it's possible that the 'evil entity', if there is one, might possibly have inhabited Grindlewald, and then Tom Riddle when he called on it. Although LV and Tom are the same person now, that doesn't mean that Riddle didn't call upon the evil force that once resided in Grindlewald to come to him and save him from death by making him immortal....a bit like selling your soul to the devil, you know? I think that might be possible....

Perhaps, when Riddle used Harry's blood to bring himself back, he 'polluted' his body, making it difficult for the evil within him that is Voldemort to reside there indefinatly...perhaps that's what the prophecy meant by 'vanquish the dark lord'....maybe Harry already has....

Interesting, can honestly say I hadn't heard of anything like this before. Hmm.... yeah, if you're right in a way about Grindelwald, I think it would be a combination of what the two of you said.

I think that LV would have called on the spirit of GW and maybe had that spirit inhabit him... though I think that if he did, he would have lost some if not all control.

If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I'm just going purely from memory here... didn't it say the "defeat" of the dark wizard Grindelwald? Not death?

Also, if GW was defeated in 1945 then how could LV be the most powerful dark wizard in a century? Is he more powerful than GW was then? Could be b/c he had both GWs powers and his own, but again that's only speculation based on this theory...

If there was a third person pulling the strings in ways, I wouldn't have thought of Grindelwald myself... my mind fluttered to Bellatrix as soon as you mentioned the possibility of a third person in the dark.

I mean, LV has shown us that he has a certain... fondness... if you could put it that way, in teaching her everything she knows himself, saving her from the ministry of magic battle at the end of ootp (he grabbed her and apparated if i'm not mistaken), and in his calling her "Bella" instead of Lestrange, or even Bellatrix...

But lol, just a thought, this is more playful than anything else... but what if the one pulling LVs strings were Snape? That would explain a couple of things really (like why Snape's not dead), not that I believe it. I'm not sure I believe that there was anyone else mentioned in the prophecy at all... though I'll be sure to go back and reread it.

I'll post again once I have.

For some strange reason, the name Grindelwald isn't ringing a bell! I don't recall reading about him.. I think I need to reread OotP.. for the 3rd time!! Goodness.. or maybe it's just 'cause I'm sleepy and not exactly in tip top shape right now.. *yawns*.. remind me who Grindelwald is again.. someone, anyone?

I think that he's mentioned in the first book... hold on, let me look for the quote I seem to be remembering...

Hm I just realized I don't have the book, so I searched for the quote I was looking for online and this is what I found... sorry if it's not exact.

"Dumbledore is currently the headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. He is famous for defeating the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for discovering the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and for his work on alchemy with his partner Nicolas Flamel."

Its on the back of his chocolate frog card, once again, sorry if I'm not exact.

Hmm, this is a very original idea. The only thing that I can think of that's not repeatitive of what was already said is this: If Grindlewald was defeated by Dumbledore, wouldn't Voldemort see that as a kind of weakness? I thought Voldemort couldn't stand such a thing! I don't see him calling on the spirit of Grindlewald to aid him. Plus, who says he's dead? For that reason and that he seems way to confident and into himself to rely on other people, er, if he doesn't need to. (Eh, he was helpless in his other forms, what other choice did he have?) I, however, do think he used some kind of ancient magic that we don't know too much about (Lily's love protection as an example). It's interesting you bring up Grindlewald, I'll have to sit on this for a bit to decide if he'll come back into play... I mean, he hasn't been mentioned since Harry's first ride to Hogwarts, has he?

Nah, I've just rebutted my own idea (well, not strictly mine, it was Grindlewald-The dark Lord's...but I added to it! ) I've just finished reading CoS and Riddle says that he'd already come up with the Lord Voldemort identity before he'g actually started going through the transformations. He started using it with his friends in school - although who wanted to be friends with Tom is beyond me...

Anywho, the upshot is that if Tom started using the whole LV thing before he left school, then he already had a clear idea of what he was planning to do and I don't think that involved 'channeling' Grindlewald's spirit or whatever...LV is quite evil enough on his own, I think....

But stupid_cat, good point...if Grindlewald had already been defeated then LV probably wouldn't have looked up to him...unless he admired a particular quality about him and thought that DD won by default or something...the greatest fault that people like LV have is believing that they are undefeatable, and they usually all are...in the end...

I remember seeing that and thinking: Oh, so there was another naughty dark wizard not so long ago...And wondering if he was more, or less naughty than Voldemort....but leaving it at that really, assuming he was less...

THIS is a VERy interesting idea and it sounds entirely possible abotu the whole spirit stuff i don't agree with. I think it is either Grindewald helping Voldie or just Voldie.

Hi, another first poster lol, very nice theory, I think that could pan out correctly, depends how JK Rowling wants to go.

Humm, he might be a bigger character, who knows. Though I do think all the references are for Voldy.

It can't be Grindewald because Voldemort said to Harry at the end of book one about how Quirrel was faithful to him and drank the unicorn blood for him .I don't have my book with me but if u look u will see this and realize it can't be that Grindewald was the one who was spotted in the forest drinking unicorn blood.

Ok i got a idea what if Gw was Hiter i mean i think everybody knows that hiter killed himself, what if DD went down in to hiter bunker killed him and the magic revolesel squde(sorry about spelling)and made it look like sudice his whole inner goupe were all wisdars

wow jeff, that's neat, seriously. i wouldn't have thought of it... i wonder if jkr would tie the books to "our" world like that? do you think? the thought had honestly never occured to me, but that's really interesting to think about!

yeas, but dumbledore defeated GW, didn't he?

Well i think there was another dark lord too....might have been someone like Grindelwald...

ummmm Jeff.. For some people the subject of Hitler is still very hurtful and whilst it is undoubtably history and in the right timeframe.

Everyone please remember.... These books started out as a childrens series. And whilst I would go to say that many of you are quite mature and older than the 10-12 year old age and absolutely adore Harry Potter. They are too young to learn of Hitler and fully understand what he was about. Hitler killed many people and some of them were fairly close relations to my family. Especially when he killed them for no reason.

Also If you paid more attention to your spelling that would be appreciated.

These books and their plots have been sketched out since the beginning and since the beginning was kiddy book it will be.

Sorry if I was rude or anything ~but please consider it.

ok. Back on topic.

I don't think that Grindenwald is the True Dark Lord. Whilst that is very JKRish it is a very big stretch.

Anyway, I think Dobby is HBP. So disregard me

Well, it's an interesting theory. It gets me thinking about things, but still I can't see some evil wizard mentioned once in passing turning out to be the Big Baddie. It's more likely if there is to be some evil death-defying third party mussing around in the background it's Salazar Slytherin. Though I'm not sure I see that either. Though I keep wondering what else was in the Chamber of Secrets besides a big ol' basilisk.

Well, anyway this has got me thinking, so I'll go off and think on it some more...

It is a nice thought (not) that there might be a stronger force out there than Voldemort.

I think that this would be nice for the ending though.

Dumbledore ~whilst he cannot defeat Voldemort himself weakens him.

Voldemort kills Dumbledore *gasp* (It has to happen?)

Harry gets cranky.

Voldemort dies.

It would be funny if Dumbledore was the true dark lord.

I don't think Grindy is the True Dark Lord no, I still think that's Voldemort or someone behind the scenes... but I think the Grindewald being Hitler idea is very cool. And the timing is right.

I still don't think that Hitler is involved in anything.

Come on do you honestly think that a person as infamous as Hitler (he was famous for all the wrong reasons, you know) would be included in a multi million dollar childrens series?

Well, whilst JKR has undeniably been influenced by her experiences of visiting the Holocaust museum, I very much doubt that she would directly include Hitler in any of her books. She hasn't even really suggested it - although using the date of 1945 was bound to get people wondering. I think she would be straying into a very sensitive area if she did suggest that Grindlewald was Hitler directly, and that really wouldn't be appropriate in the context of the Harry Potter books. I'm sure that JKR would realise that.

However, she may very well decide to use the idea of a larger, darker controlling presence over Voldemort that would be Grindlewald, but if she does, the Hitler connection is far more likely to be intimated rather than directly stated.


Although I kind of like Kreacher's suggestions... Harry gets cranky.....LOL....

Jk actually said that Voldemort was not based on any real person, leaving or dead.

they're not talking about voldemort being based on hitler are they? its grindelwald. he was the one "defeated" in 1945. shrugs.

I still don't think that it has anything to do with Hitler

The whole thing was the idea of Grindy being a higher authority over Voldemort. Then, someone introduced the idea of Hitler being involved.

Anyway Voldemort is the most powerful dark-wizard in a century. It says so in PS/SS - depending on which side of the fence you are on!

I think Voldemort isnt like Hitler because hitler kind of mainly focussed on getting rid of all the jews. this might make sense if Voldemort mainly wanted to get rid of the muggles but that isnt true. he just wants to kill everyone.

~~~~Judy~~~~

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I think that I saw a timeline of Harry Potter and if I am not mistaken Harry is at Hogwarts from 1990-1997.
So if this is true, then harrys 2nd year was 1991-1992 and fifty years before, 1942, Hagrid was expelled from hogwarts, and Tom Riddle was, I believe, a 6th year, therefore three years later, 1945, Tom was out of hogwarts, and probably out there gathering followers.

If you haven't figured out what I'm getting at then her it is bluntly.

since GW was defeated in 1945 then what better timing than to join forces with Tom Riddle, whether that is some kind of possesion, or a team effort, I don't know.

Tell me what you think

I don't think that there is another dark lord! I can't imagine a world with TWO dark lords,I mean Voldemort is bad enough! I really hope that the rumours that I've heard aren't true.

I'm with you on that one Grindelwald, I don't think your theory ever says two dark lords they're just one in the same if I follow your reasoning correctly. Voldemorte is more or less just a reincarnation of the same dark lord (grindelwald).

P.S. I love this theory

OK...so I just finished reading all the past posts. I really do like the Hitler idea. And before some of you get offended, just know that from a creative point of view I like it. That is, to use history to make people understand how bad a person is. She will not come right out and say it, but maybe there is a connection to the terror and hatred from the reign of Hitler and the reign of terror both Grindiwald (sp) and Voldy caused in thier day. Maybe a silent parallel for those intuative readers, you know?

I had never thought twice about the information on the back of the chocolate frog cards. I think we were read that in order to catch Nicholas Flamel's name. But you never know, perhaps the Chocolate frog cards are more informative than we give them credit for. Maybe we will find out more about Grindewald (sp-sorry) and then the many uses of dragon's blood too! Maybe the frog cards are clues! Well, those are my thoughts.

Okay, drop the whole hitler stuff.

Okay, this is what's going to happen. Grindewald is the greatest wizard of all times. He persuided Tom Riddle into going to the dark side, and changed his name to darth....ehm, Lord Voldemort. And see, Lord Voldemort is Actually james potter (who first changed his name to riddle, then Voldemort). And everybody says that Lord Voldemort killed james, becaus james got completely dark. And then, when Lord Voldemort and Harry fights, Voldemort, INSTEAD of killing harry he curses of his hand. But Grindewald try's to kill harry himself. But Lord Voldemort does a levitation charm on Grindewald, and drops him into a deep, deep, deep, deep, deep hole. But then, Lord Voldemort transform his face to james potter, one last time, becuse he can't see with those red eye's. He get's blind, and die.

Thats whats going to happen

I think everybody has made good points but may i sak hu is Griendelow or watever


Grindewald is a dark lord who was defeted by Dumbledore in 1945, how ever please check out the rules here. One-liners are not allowed on the vtm forum, thanks Shane.

Wow Voldy's, your theory is weird, but I like it. The GW was behind everything. The mastermind like Darth Sedius/Palpatine.
I concluded that GW was Hitler who failed to conquer the muggle world, and was defeated by the human will. Not even God can to that. And finally decide to take over the wizzarding world. He was defeated by Dumbledore and his spirit was ripped of his body and he posess and took over Tom Riddles body. and the story goes on.

greetings all - in just a few days we'll learn more to help us unravel this mystery.

While JKR wrote this series for primarily a juvenile audience, I think she has given the story many layers. A child wouldn't pick up on some of the mythology references but they are there.

I don't think she ever intended to suggest that Grinevald was Hitler. I do think it is a comment on the evil that existed in that period and came to an was defeated in 1945. But of course, that evil wasn't killed - only defeated to live on in other forms. Grinevald may well have been a dark wizard who was aiding the Nazi Muggles.

JKR has mentioned that after she developed the pure-blood versus mixed-blood wizards that she discovered that the Nazi's had used similar distinctions in their propaganda about the purity of the Aryan race. Similar distinctions were made in the US about racial purity in the days of slavery and following.

One thought that occurred to me was an idea that Grinevald might have been a dark wizard and a brother to bitter squib to vented his anger at muggles -- and that brother was Hitler. Again - I don't think JKR would ever suggest something like that and it is irrelevant to our story.

I think our Harry Potter is destined for a showdown with Voldemort, but this isn't some Messianic defeat of ultimate evil. This is the normal fight between good and evil - our better inclinations versus our lesser ones - that all of us face. Her point in the story is to show someone choosing to work toward the good. HP choose to be in Gryffindor and turned away from the bad he sensed in Slytherin. In the same way he is repulsed by his own father's abuse of Snape, even though he doesn't like Snape either. HP doesn't like Draco either, but he doesn't go out of his way to hurt him. HP is a better man than his father was at the same age.

My post is starting to ramble. I don't know if there is anyone else pulling strings for Voldemort. I think the books indicate that he is working on his own, though even as young Tom Riddle he allowed his bitterness and self-hatred (of his half-muggle self) to look to the dark side. Yes - it is hard to avoid the whole Star Wars notion of being seduced by the Dark Side. But isn't that a part of the struggle to be good, decent, people- whether we are Wizards or Muggles.

Looking forward to my weekend reading!!