This thread is for discussing anything about the Penseive. Things to be discussed can include the properties of the penseive, how much power it truly has, what kind of outcome it will have on the story, what impact it has already had, etc.

Be sure to remember the rules of the Great Hall

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I suppose I should start off with a few questions...

If someone enters the thoughts of another, does that mean they now have the memory of that memory? They'd have a memory of themselves visiting a memory...is there something wrong with that? Dumbledore said that Slughorn didn't do a good job tampering with his memory, does that mean that some have been successful?

If someone enters a memory of an individual, does it record everything that happened? Such as events the person may not have known about? One example is when Harry enters Snape's worst memory and can hear the Marauders even though Snape couldn't have heard them, at least that clearly. Would that mean that Snape could enter his own memory and overhear the entire prophecy?

Sorry, I'll let ya'll have at it

I guess my take on the whole "memory modifying" thing was this: It is possible to tamper with your memory . . . but it leaves a trace. Wasn't Slughorn's done in haste? I thought it implied that it alwyas left a trace of some sort. . . I don't think there's much you can do about it though. . .if a person doesn't like the memory and wishes to change it. . .then it's up to that person. It's their memory to do with, or block out, what they please.

Maybe that's why the pensieve isn't used more for criminal investigation in the wizarding world. . .perhaps they're colored by the holder of the memory too much and the information would be biased. (I'm remembering that the Marauder's weren't exactly painted in a good light during Snape's memory . . . perhaps that's because it was Snapes? Maybe if it had been the same scene out of Lupin's memory (or Sirius'), it would have been written in a more positive light for James?)

I think the Penseive is another one of those not really thought out magic items, but that is what makes it great.

It is way too powerful to make another appearance in the books, and listening to the prophecy is only the start.

Besides making it possible to take memories from convicted Death Eaters in order find more of them, you could possibly track down where Voldy hid the horcruxes simply by finding people neary by at the right time. You might have to jump from person to person to follow him, but all you need is somebody else nearby!

Do you think you can foricibly extract memories, then? I was kind of thinking that you had to remove your memory voluntarily. . . but I guess that is one thing that isn't clear on the pensieve. It would be very interesting if you could extract someone's memory by force to find out information on the Horcruxes. Do you think Dumbledore would have already tried that, though? It seemed that he had been after memories that people had already given . . .or who voluntarily gave them, at any rate.

Forcibly remove memories by force? I've never thought about that. I don't think you could do that otherwise wouldn't Dumbledore have removed the memory from Slughorn, instead of getting Harry to do it.

But then again, Dumbledore's a man of honour.

I've often thought how Harry could hear the Marauders talking and clearly see their faces. Surely, they would have been blurred and voices dulled, because Snape was on the other side of the green... thing. Anyway. It made me wonder the power of the pensieve. That if it did take everything around the person, like a photgraphic memory and the hearing equivelent. Or maybe it's just a mistake by JK rowling...

I don't think memories can be forcefully taken. The person would have to be thinking of the specific memory you wanted to take...know what I mean? I suppose someone could take your entire memory and sort out the ones he/she needed and then if you're lucky enough, they'd put the rest back. Though I think the person, while the memories are out of him/her, they would be unconcious without thought...almost as if their soul had been taken out. What if it is unforgiveable to do that?

Maybe someone can answer a question that has been bugging me.

When you take a memory out to put into the pensieve, are you making a copy of it, or are you removing it?

It doesn't seem to remove it, because Slughorn had already given an 'altered' memory to Dumbledore, but remembered what it was.

Snape also seemed to know what memories he had put into it before starting the occulency lesson with Harry.

Anybody know anywhere that it definately says this, one way or the other?

That's an interesting question since it seems that Dumbledore explained it as something you do when you find too many things floating around in your mind at once. . . but it does seem to just make a copy of the memory so that you can observe it (along with other memories of similar instances) to see if you can find a commonality (as he does in GoF).

It certainly doesn't seem to remove the memory from the person, does it? Maybe Dumbledore uses it as an observation tool of things which had already happened where he can see himself-as well as the others involved in the memory-through a nonbiased (if possible) light.

My vote is for copy.

I agree with passerby, it seems to be a copy only because; for instance, Slughorn like you said was able to take a memory out even when it was elsewhere. Likewise, if it were to erase it from your mind once you took it out, how would you know what you're looking at? Why would Snape have reacted the way he did when Harry visited his? Perhaps it copies it and compresses it so its forced to the back of your mind or something

I was thinking about this the other day...can someone apparate within a memory? Is going into a memory like going into the Matrix? So if you apparated your physical self would stay, but your being within the memory would be able to apparate? Or is it impossible because one cannot interact with their environment within the memory (except for touching the ground)? Wait, do you yourself fall into the penseive or is it like an imprint? If its an imprint, are you technically dead or inferi-like? Or is it your physical embodiment (sp?) being projected within a memory?

...I'm losing it...

Interesting thought, Chris, and it certainly would be cool to, in effect, go back in time and physically experience (and even personally interfere) with a memory, but I do not think it is possible. The point of the penseive is technically to re-watch a memory of your own or of somebody else. I think that (besides for the whole 'being able to alter the memoy' part) it is the same thing as "apparating" into the memory. Yeah...I think it would be too much of a Time Turner/Penseive mixture that is unnecessary when you have the other magical technologies.

Since Snape pulled Harry back by his shoulder, I think your body just stays where it is.

Since slughorn managed to alter a memory, but still retained the original, it definately seems to me to be a copy only, but then why would Snape have taken out his worst memory? Is it a another plot hole (Worst part is, since we saw Harry break into Snape's mind at least once, it was completely unnecessary to have the pensieve in there at all!)

Maybe you have a choice, to give or copy?

As for forcibly removing, I don't think we have any indication it is possible, but we do know that DD was able to remove other people's memories because he got both the house elf and Gaunt's (I can't see anyone lending Gaunt a wand!). I wasn't suggesting you could force the memory out, just that you could use them (if they cooperated).

So you grab somebody's memory that was physically near Voldy, and follow him (big V) as far as you can, then you find somebody else nearby and do the same thing. Long and hard, but worth the work. The same thing could be done for any investiation, including Sirius.

In fact it makes no sense that it is not used more.

Want to find out who put Harry's name in the GoF, grab somebody who was near it!

Since it was not used for this sort of purpose, it would appear that only things within somebody's 'awareness' can be viewed. Snape may not have been able to hear or see the marauders, but he was 'aware' of them (I actually think he was following and spying on them, the way he was always close to them, and his timing on going to leave, were too co-incidental for me).

It also appears that memories can be store outside of the Pensieve for extended periods of time. This would make trading in memories all the rage!
Imagine! You could buy a copy of the memory of watching the world cup match; it would be a thousand times better than TV (which wizards don't have). This would only work if Pensieves were common, and since DD shared his with Snape, I don't see that they could be.

Oooh! Thank you, bajab, you reminded me of yet another way that it could happen!

Maybe all you have to do is stick your eyes or head into the silvery mater in the penseive? Once your head makes contact with the memory, your "soul" gets sucked into the vision. This way, your body is still standing next to the penseive, and Snape was able to pull Harry back by his shoulders. Your mind moving from an office into somebody else's memory can also cause the "falling" sensation.

I found this on harrypotterfacts.com...

Ah, that clears up the wand poking thing.

I'm wondering though, how literally we should take the "falls in" thing. I mean, it probably felt to Harry as if he were falling in, but what if it weren't his physical self-as others have thought-and just a "spirit" self . . .After all, we are seeing this from Harry's PoV, so if he felt himself falling (whether it was happening or not), we'd feel him falling as well.

I agree, and it would help explain how somebody else may come across someone viewing a memory and not feel inclined to lock them in there.

What about this...how was Harry in Snape's memory then suddenly out of it? I think it is a matter of bending over and your face is in the basin, and you feel like you fall in...like passerby said...otherwise, how would anyone get back? You couldn't exactly fly up could you? You couldn't grab a broom because it belongs there and one cannot exactly interact with a memory except listen and be present.

Perhaps it takes someone as powerful/magically gifted as Dumbledore to able to have control over his physical self and his 'being' in the memory.

That's certainly another interesting point. Yeah, Dumbledore knew what he was doing, so he had no trouble getting back out of memories-but Harry was never taught how to get himself out of a pensieve memory because Dumbledore had pulled him out (and I'm skipping Snape's for a moment), and then Dumbledore accompanied him on his other memory excursions.

So, what the heck was Harry thinking when he decided to peep into Snape's memory? He had no idea how to get out of there, did he? Would he have been stuck there in some kind of memory-looping (or repeating) until someone pulled him out, or do you think he would have popped out after the memory exhausted itself?

I think it would have gone on to the next memory, like when Harry first visited Dumbledore's memory back in book 4. Didn't he see multiple trials, each from a different point in time (though they could have been just minutes separated in between, but it still showed a gap in time or something...didn't it?)?

Would the penseive know which memory has been seen? As in, if it isn't your own and you've already seen it, then your mind no longer needs to see it...unless you extract from your own? So then once all of the memories are done being viewed, you're stuck or are forced out like an old video cassette being automatically ejected when the movie is done...what do you think?

Took me some time to join in here, and some more time to read your thoughts (hehe) and ponder them (I had a good look at them... ), but here I am now...

In my rereading of HBP, I came accross something interesting that Dumbledore said about the obtaining of memories.

Hmmmmm...passerby, interesting find. That little excerpt completely skipped my mind.

As you said, it very well may be that momories cannot be taken out of a person unwillingly, by use of force or other means. It would make sense because memories are part of the brain, and unless you have taken a truth potion such as Veritaserum -- which even still has to be taken unsuspectedly -- or even if you have been Imperiused, you still should not be able to give a memory away. Yes, the person who is trying to extract the memory from you might be able to get some valuble information for a potion like Veritaserum, but not a solid memory.

Either that is the case, or Dumbledore did not want to force anybody to give him memories. Dumbledore is a good man, and doing something like Imperiusing a muggle to extract a momry from them is just as bad as what Voldemort does. That's just not Dumbledore's style. Plus, if Voldemort ever found out that people had given memories of him doing horrible things, or something that can be used against him, they might just *magically* move towards the top of his "People to Kill" list It is a big risk to reveal such information to Dumbledore, even if it is in an attempt to relieve the world from the greatest Dark power it has ever seen .

What do you guys think? I believe that it is a mixture of both: maybe memories cannot be easliy extracted by another person (without the use of an Unforgivable Curse, at least), and Dumbledore wanted to play a clean game, unlike Voldie.




_daviD

hey guys

about that quote, when i read it i thought that dumbledore was saying, that he persuaded people by force, since persuaded was in quotes, i read it as he was being sarcastic, and saying that the people didnt really have a choice, but to give him the membories, i could be wrong, but thats how i understood it... what do you think?

He said just prior to the "persuaded" part, that he had tricked people into giving him these memories. That's what I took it to mean. I don't think he used force, but he did have to trick them to get it. I just wonder what sort of trickery Dumbledore would have resorted to in order to get these memories. Trickery like sending a 16 year old boy after an important memory because the possesor was already sympathetic to this boy, or more questionable tricks. . . I sometimes have to wonder what sort of man Dumbledore really was.

hmm

well then maybe he didnt use force, it does seem that he wouldnt, but who knows, i dont think that he would trick people in a controversial way, like the whole using harry thing, he just played to slughorns weaknesses, now some may say that is wrong to do, but we are talking about voldemort here, so i think that the ways he used to get the memories for the peniseive were probally pretty clean.

I have many questions about the pensieve. Such that if the person hears a sound behind them does the memory the person belongs to show what caused the sound behind them? They didn't see it happen, but they heard it. So when in the memory walking around in the environment can you see what actually happened behind the person's back? Its like the old saying "If a tree falls with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Interesting question. Based on Harry's pensieve experiences, I would guess that it acts as a sort of time-warp. . .without the ability to affect anything, or actually travel in time.

In Snape's worst memory, Harry was able to see that James was doodling snitches on his OWL test paper. Snape, obviously, didn't get to see that. Of course, this could have been supplied by Snape's mind as the only logical thing James would have been doodling. And the fact that he included L.E. . . . could that give more credence to the Snape and Lily theory? Mwahaha. (Nah.)

Time warp huh? What if, like the thing about James doodling, somebody has a memory...lets just say Harry. He extracts a memory of when he was 5, can he assume, like you said about Snape assuming James was doodling a snitch, that Voldemort was in Albania bidding his time? Could he travel in his mind to Albania (it was Albania right?), and see what exactly Voldemort was doing? Or would it be what he thought he was doing...it would also be tough if he didn't know Voldemort existed.

So, Snape had to have known what he was doing, going off that assesment. I think I lost myself...

So it's kind of a magical mirror of what the person's memory shows, but more in 3-D... Like seeing a movie that you only remember seeing on VHS, at a wide-screen theatre. You see a little bit more. Hope that helps, guys!

Thanks LilyPotter for posting that interview

It shows how some things could have been done a lot easier than they were done...

For starters...if it records everything that went on:



Then couldn't Dumbledore have looked at a memory at the same time that Tom Riddle and Slughorn were talking about Horcruxes? If Snape is evil, couldn't he have given the memory of the prophecy to Voldemort instead of waiting for Harry to get it for him? Couldn't Sirius submit his memory for viewing to figure out if Wormtail was still alive or not (I know..the trial wasn't fair)? Theres other things I'm sure that could have been solved this way.

Well, not necessarily...

Just because DD would never force a memory out of someone (that is just the type of moral person he is), doesn't mean that it cannot be done. DD just would never do it. I believe that memories could in fact be taken from someone who didn't want to give them. You would simply extract them with a wand. LV probably did this quite a bit in his search for the child involved in the prophecy.


Well, obviously there has to be a way to get out of it... because everyone does. My guess would be that once the memory is up, it simply stops, and you just pull yourself out. You aren't actually there, so it has to be more of a mind-over-matter thing. Like, when you are having a nightmare, if you don't allow the dream to take over, and you tell yourself "this is just a dream, WAKE UP!", then you wake up.

Your physical body can't be there, so it cannot be a "time warp". We know this because Snape, who is not in the memory with Harry when he is watching it, simply pulls his head out of the pensieve.

The pensieve appears to be very similar to "virtual reality". You are there, everything seems real to you, and you can easily get caught up in the world that you are watching... but it isn't real. Actually, when you think about it, a lot of things in this book seem to point back to the whole "mind-over-matter" aspect...

1-The Sorting Hat: Harry thinks hard that he does not want to be in Slytherin, and the hat allows him to go into Gryffindor
2-Boggarts: Harry has to convince himself that the "Dementor" in front of him is not real... it is a boggart simply assuming the form of a dementor
3-The Basin-DD is having hallucinations from the potion in the basin. Harry has to keep telling DD it isn't real, and convince him to keep drinking the potion

The list goes on and on... Could this be a huge recurring theme in the series? hmmm...

LilyPotter, thats something I didn't pick up on (the virtual reality theme) Good find! What if a pensieve could be used as a sort of prison. I watched an episode of the Outer Limits (maybe I already said this), and this guy was sentenced to life in prison and he was knocked out and put on this virtual reality simulation where he went to prison for his entire life...when he was only on the machine for maybe one hour...so he had a whole life imprissonment for one hour! I guess that would be good in real life...only the other party wouldn't have closure I suppose.

And like you said, its mind over matter. But what if it turned out to be Nightmare on Elm Street scenario where if you grab something in the pensieve, it comes with you. I mean, we've seen Harry walk around in the environment, he doesn't continue to fall forever, so there could possibly be something you can do to interact with it more (likely not but maybe something to think about). What if you forgot you were in a pensieve and you realized you couldn't touch something...so you began thinking you were a ghost? Ghost are projected memories from a pensieve that the living can talk to? (what the?).



Good point again! I guess nobody would forget they were there because eventually somebody would come around and pull them out

Does anyone recall reading anywhere in the books that memories were taken out of the Pensieve and put back into somebodies head? I can't seem to find it anywhere myself.

So I wonder if the memories have a shelf life, or need to be banished or something?

If they are put back into your head, can they be put into somebody else's instead?

There's a quote that mentions at a glance of Snape placing back into the mind:

It is possible magically extracted memories have a shelf life when they aren't stored in an actual brain. If not his brain, we don't know exactly where Dumbledore kept those memories he invited Harry to witness in HBP. Dumbledore suspects Riddle implanted a false memory-the accounts of Tom Riddle Senior and his parents being murdered into Morfin. If we trust Dumbledore's suspicion Riddle would tamper with his uncle like that then it appears skilled wizards, inept wizards pretending to be skilled -coughLockhartcough- and maybe even magical accidents are liable to swap memories.

What I am curious of is do transferred memories that are only tampered by which brain contains them retain a trace or mark of its origin/true state?

not really saying much in this but...
doesnt it say that he kept the memories in bottles or vials with a corked lid, or am i just putting something in? and if you cooked up an excuse for somthing, youd remember the excuse right? well then couldnt you take that fake memory out of your brain and then place it in someone elses, and get yourself out of trouble, perhaps if you murdered somebody, and thought of a story explaining how it was an accident, could you then take that story and implant it in someone elses memory. not sure if that makes any sense but im just thinking of maybe thats how the deatheaters get out of their murders, they implant excuses in the first person they find, and then can use that person as a witness... who knows?

You're right, hp6, he does keep them in vials. This was brought up in another thread (I think the one about Dumbledore himself), but why would he need to keep his own memories in vials? Just something I'd throw out there, since he can extract them from his mind anyway.



Wouldn't that person have the memory of putting a false memory into someone else? It would continue on forever (taking your memory of what you had just done and placing it elsewhere because it would keep happening). Does someone remember what they had put into a vial or the pensieve...etc.? If someone had taken a memory out, of whatever they wanted, why would they bother to even review it or even try to give it to someone if they had just forgotten what it was?

I still say its impossible to forcefully extract a memory out of someone if they're not thinking of the particular thing you want to take out

Hmmm, well I think that Dumbledore says that the purpose of the pensieve, is to clear his mind and look at his thoughts from outside his mind, so I assume when you put a memory in the Horcrux you are done with that memory until you retrieve it. But then when you examine the memory do you have a memory of examining that memory, because harry remembered examining the memory of Barty Jr. in GoF, so I guess it is a never ending circle, very confusing.

JK has said on her site or in an interview, i forget which, that the pensieve shows events as they actually occured. Hence, its power and usefullness. You can take any event that you experienced, pull it from your mind, and it shows you the event from a different perspective as it actually occured. It is more a sort of "time window" than a memory device, in my opinion, as it does not show you everything a memory contains, such as how you felt at the time, or what you were thinking as the memory plays out.

This is why Harry was able to see things which occured near Snape which Snape himself had no knowledge of. The Mauraders ambushed him on the shore of the lake. He was not aware of their pressence at all, nor they of his, untill they spotted him walking away.

I believe that if you watch someone else's memory in a pensieve you would then be able to repeat the process as many times as you wished, as you would then have experienced the memory yourself. I do wonder if you would see yourself watching the memory for the first time if you went in a second time in this fashion, however. Such as if Harry were to use his memory of spying on D's memories to watch the various trials again. Would he see a copy of himself sitting next to D, waving his hand infront of his face and trying to talk to him?

As for whether you remove or make a copy of the memory, I'm up in the air. It wouldn't make much sense to completely remove the memory as you would then forget what it was you were going to be looking at exactly. Also, people would not be so willing to just give away memories to people like Dumbledore who wanted them for an indefinate length of time.

However, Snape used the pensieve to keep Harry from gaining access to certain memories during their occlumency lessons, lending weight to the argument that the memory is completely removed.

It is my opinion that one is able to choose whether the memory is copied or removed. Also, we know that wizards have ways of copying their memories, as Voldemort did when creating his diary, or when the Headmaster portraits are created, etc. So,even if a memory would be removed for placing it in the pensieve, they could make a copy through some other means and use that instead.

Memory modification is usually something a wizard does to someone else, through the obliviate charm and probably other means. This leaves a trace. However, Dumbledore was able to overcome this and gain the memories of Morvin Gaunt which Voldemort had modified. Whether he did this with occlumency or some other means is unknown. This also shows that memories can, indeed, be forcibly taken as Dumbledore describes Morvin as reluctant, or somesuch.

JKR has clarified that pensieve provides the as it is representation of an even that happened and cut and paste jobs such as those of Slughorn can be easily discerned from the real stuff. I wonder, can a pensieve distinguish between a true memory and a fantasy. I mean a fantasy is something makebelieve, so can be just another memory. Slughorn's memory did not convince because he attempted to add a piece of self-made fiction to a piece of the memory of an actual event. But if the whole thing is just imagination, what would happen then?

Suppose I have a fantasy of flying over Hogwarts on a broom and that fantasy stays in my mind and I am able to recall it all the time. Can I pull it out from my head and view it in a pensieve? JKR does say that pensieve shows an event as it occurred, but in this case there was no event only imagination, that is a product of the same mind that perceived the visual signals emanating from an event. Can we see our fantasies in our pensieve?

Hmmm good question. I would think not, however, because I believe the pensieve does not take what is in your mind and play it back, but finds that point in time when the memory occurred and replays it. It is a sort of time manipulation device that is triggered by memories. If there was no actual point in time in which the hypothetical make-believe memory occurred, it wouldn't really have anything to show.

I think the memory that comes out of the head has to be a replication, or, as has been said, the "extra perspective" the Pensieve gives would be meaningless. DD would never know when to leave the memories if they were the only "copies" of that information. He does somewhere, doesnt he, say that you can also use the Pensieve to clear things out of your head (or is that just the movie?), so maybe it also gives you the option of putting that memory in some kind of abeyance.

As to whether the memory of an imagination could be replayed: In so far as "imagining" is itself a form of experience, you can redo it, I would say. This would mean, I think, that experiencing a memory of a fantasy or imagination scene would feel different, maybe look different, than the pensieve experience of a non-fantasy experience. For one thing, in a non-fantasy experience things are happening beyond the control of one's own mind; in fantasy experience, things are exclusively drawn from one's own mind. This would give the fabric of them something of a different feel, I think. But insofar as fantasies are "real" things we do with our minds, they can be re-experienced in the Pensieve, I think.