This topic produced a lot of discussion in the Daily Prophet that we (the IS) have made it a topic itself. Here is what was written:

Illegal immigration has become a huge issue here in the United States. This past March, there were immigration rallies in response to a bill in which it would make illegal immirgrants...illegal...and be sent to prison. Also, for those who aren't citizens and here illegally, any money they send back to their families or their homes elsewhere would be taxed a lot more than it is now. Those who employ illegal immigrants would also be just as guilty as those who have come to the United States illegally. Though it isn't just Mexicans crossing the border, Mexico is an immediate neighbor geographically and politcally which is why it is getting more attention (what about Canada?). Combatting this for some time, especially in Arizona and Texas, civilians have set up their own groups called 'minute men' who patrol the border on their free time. They claim to be doing the Border Patrol's work, which, because of a lack of resources, they've been forced to cut back on tactics.

Because of the proposed bill, along with the rallies (which also included Asian-Americans, Native Americans, and many more), and those lack of resources/man power, this article shows how President Bush proposed that troops be sent to the border in order both safe guard and await for the Border Patrol to bulk itself up again. Prior to this, an 700 mile long fense was also proposed.

So, are troops necessary to securing the United States border? Is Bush right in doing this? Are illegal immigrants deserving of the same rights as American citizens? Should the border be more a middle ground for business and everything, rather than a line drawn on a map to symbolize where one country ends and another begins? Should a work program be instituted to allow citizenship? What about others not in Mexico, who can't simply cross the border and work towards their citizenship?

One person said it in this fashion, 'laying it rather frankly, its illegal immigrants demanding rights of citizens.' Is this a correct assesment?

Likewise, recently, another part added to the bill was that some (not entirely sure how they would sort out some people from others) would basically be granted amnesty. Others could gain their citizenship through some sort of work program. Accompanying that, they would have to learn English. This brings up another topic...should English be the soul language of the US? This has also become an issue with groups singing the National Anthem in Spanish.

Has immigration been pushed because of fears of terrorism? About a year ago in Arizona, as well as south of San Diego, people found underground tunnels that would transport drugs. Of course, it could have just as likely transfered people. What do you all think?

Hello everyone, I am Jonathan Costa, the VTM Portuguese translator, and I have an experience about illegal immigration. I am Brazilian and I've never been in USA before, but many friends of mine are there illegally. They went to USA looking for a new condition of life, they gave up their real occupations to do something they would never do it in Brazil. Anápolis, where I live, is from where many Brazilians go to States with faked visas, faked passport and through Mexico. Their principal destination is MA, and they have specie of ghetto there. They also get false Social Security to work, and the bosses also know they are illegal. I myself condemn this conduct, and I didn't get my visa to visit my father there in 2001 because the Embassy of United States didn't give me, and is not giving to anyone from Anapolis, very rarely they do, when they're sure you will not live or work there illegally. My father lived in New York for three years and he met many immigrates. HE knows people who slept only three hours a night working in three jobs, and now they bought houses and other things here. I've been in Zürich in 2000, Switzerland and there is a village just for Brazilians from Anapolis. Anápolis is 300,000 habitants, a very small, but very immigrated.

Bush is taking the right decision; it will decrease this number here in my city and all over the world. Every country should close this gate. There are right ways to get in and out, to work and study, and I preserve the law.

I am moving to Austria and everything very legal, this way I feel very good. If people are looking for money, they just need to work more, here in Brazil people don't do what they do in USA. They think they can make more money there but if they don't sleep and work all day all night they will make the same paycheck. It's not because I don't need it that I say it, but I think people are not patriotic so they don't worry with their own country and don't look for their country success.

Thanks for all of that insight, Jonathan! I wish you good luck in Austria (my French teacher was Austrian).

I have two more things to share about this topic at the moment. My sister-in-law is trying to get her brother Luc over to the states. He, of course, wants to come and live-so the INS say "no visa!" because they know he won't be returning to Albania. They also have Visa's available by lottery, but the lottery is extremely expensive, so he can't afford it. In a way, I see why the country does this-keeps their countries going by having their citizens stay. On the other hand, by having visas so difficult to obtain, it seems that it would encourage the fake documents. I don't know. Luc, as of yet, isn't coming and it doesn't look promising for him in the future. That makes me a little sad since the rest of his family is over here.

Story number two: A friend of mine is dating a guy who recently was arrested for hiring illegal immigrants. He works for a building company and hired a contractor, who hired a subcontractor, who hired the illegal immigrants. He didn't have any knowledge that they were illegal. Should he have looked more closely into the situation? Should he be held accountable for the actions of a subcontractor? How far is this going to go? How far should it go?

I think that granting some sort of citizen benefit to those who are already here might be the more logical way to go about things. Help them to become legal and help those who wish to come here get here legally. I don't know why this is seen as such a punishment. Aren't there supposed to be consequences when you've done something wrong?

I agree. Uphold the law. Honor the law of the country you're leaving and the country you're wishing to go to.

Time to revive this topic...sort of...

I was watching Law and Order the other night when something caught my attention. The police had arrested a Latino who was suspected of killing someone, and later the lawyer (Jack McCoy) says that he doesn't speak English and because he lives here (he was an illegal immigrant) he should speak it. Then, I happened to be on IMDB, reading up on how some people view the United States (Jarhead forum, Independence Day, etc.) when I read that Americans expect people to speak English in the US, but when they go abroad they wonder why people don't speak English.

I say in both cases, that there is mostly validity. You go to an English speaking country...the chances of your success there depends on how well you speak English. Same thing if you go to a Spanish speaking country, Russian, etc. I guess in the beginning, if you're a refugee or are coming because of work, then in a year's time you should be able to speak the language of the country...or else I would think that you'd be stuck in a sense...I don't think that made sense, what do you guys think?

As an Arizona resident, the problem with illegal immigration from Mexico is a constant issue. I think there should be many more immigration officials stationed along the borders.

People should be able to try and better themselves, and find a better place to live, but I think doing it illegally sends a bad message to others. It also makes it harder for people trying to come into the states and other countries legally.

There is also a problem with people in certain jobs finding adequate pay now that it is easy for business owners to find people here illegally to do the work for less money. For example, my father is an electrician, and used to make 15 - 20 dollars per hour on jobs. Now, he makes around 8 because the business owners can find others to do the jobs really cheaply.

I might be straying from the topic here, but Additionally, the lack of border control in some areas(many in Texas) allows drug trafficking to run rampant. I realize that the majority of illegal immigrants do not have anything to do with drug trafficking, but the lack of border control adds the drug problem into the mix.

So, in conclusion, my view is that the borders to the US should really start being secured. It will help deter illegal drug trafficking, and make people who want to enter the US do it legally.

Well, i live in Colorado and we have many immigrates of the spanish nationality not just Mexican but many South American also. And quite honestly I feel it is frustrating to go into a resturant and their employees don't understand me because I speak English. I think it was said here before but if I was to go to Germany or France I would be expected to be able to communicate with them, if I found somone that spoke English and was willing to help me I would be very grateful but I would not expect them to cater to my English needs.

My second thought thought is that if I entered one of these countries without proper identification, stolen or forged identification I would be punished to the greatest extent of the law. They won't bend the rules for me or be nice, they're going to throw the book at me. Why should we as Americans not keep the same standards.

Another thought I have is a close friend of mine's friend has been trying to stay in this country the legal way and has spent a lot of money doing it the right way. This may be a harsh thought but I feel that if an Illegal Immigrate that is here in our country using our resources that immigrate should have to go back and start all over again and do it the right way. I also think that their assests should be seized and given to charity. Afterall their assets were obtained illegally and because they were in that position, a legal immigrate or citizen was not able to earn that income.

I know that last thought is harsh but it would be handled no differently in other countries. when it comes down to it I think that its a correct statement to say that most countries have a policy that pretty much says You come to our country you do it our way. that may be over simplifing it a little but i think its true. So why not keep the same standard in our own country.

I'm not real familiar with immigration within Europe, but immigrants from Europe come to the United States with the same problem that Mexicans have. They have to learn English, its just that we hear about the Mexicans more because they're right on the border and crossing illegally. For the Mexicans (like I said, I don't know a whole lot about European immigration to the US other than the early 20th Century and before), they're also seeking jobs. While they are taking away resources, they're providing them. They are taking away jobs...but they're getting paid well below what a citizen would be getting paid (and possibly under the table)...which also helps keeps certain prices down on some items.

I feel, that in order to prevent illegal immigration but to help provide for those who want to come under a different route...as in, they want to get here a lot faster than a law-abiding person would...they should be put on a work visa and earn their citizenship that way. And if people still comes over illegally after the two options (the legal way, or the work visa...and other things such as marriage), then they should be sent back. Eventually, if there was something reasonable like a work visa, illegal immigration will stop or fall drastically. It isn't right to just suddenly close the borders and put a wall around it...in my opinion.

Back towards the start of summer when the immigration rallies were going on, someone on the news said:

"laying it rather frankly, its illegal immigrants demanding rights of citizens."

That isn't right either, since they're illegal. It doesn't work anyway you look at it. You must first become a citizen before you can demand rights...but that doesn't mean an illegal immigrant can be treated anyway you want to in the work force. There are rights to human beings too, ensuring our welfare and "livability".

I liked what you said in your second post El Barto: "Time to revive this topic... sort of..."

I hope I do not offend anyone, this is definitely not in my interest! I thought it was the best way to content as many of the problems you mentioned before.
I tried to make a little experiment: what if I was a poor man (to simplify things, let's say a Mexican) and wanted to go to the US. I do not speak much English, only a few words. Bu how could I learn it if not going to the US? If I stay in Mexico I can not get enough food for my family, but in the US I could, I only have to get there. I know that I won't get a passport, not even a visa/greencard. So what am I going to do?
What would you do?

(A spontanious thought: A very interesting book about this topic is 'The Tortilla Curtain' by T.C. Boyle. It is about Candido and his wife América, who are illegal immegrants in the US and the problems they have there.)

The most important thing is, in my opinion, that every man or woman has the right to become everything they want to. And this is possible in the US, the land of endless possibilities. This is mainly how I would describe the American Dream.
But what if you are not a citizen of the US, but a Mexican? You want to make money, to feed your family, you want to survive, but this is impossible in Mexico. You have no possibility but to go into the US illegally.
Would you care that President Bush said you are not allowed to enter? Wouldn't you do everything to get over the border?


Let me try to put some order to my thougths. What I wanted you to think about is that people from Mexico are not allowed to enter the US (illegally). But why? Because they are Mexican?Is it their fault that they are not born in the US?
Let me make clear that I absolutely understand that opening the borders for everyone would definitely not work. But what would?
Could you send soldiers to every one of the 700 miles of the border? Or build a fence? I agree with El Barto in that point: it wouldn't work.

And how could you learn a country's language better if not staying there for some time? Maybe there should really be some kind of work programmes, combined with language programmes to integrate immigrants, like it has been said before.

What would happen, if no more illegal immigrants could enter the US and the ones who are already there are made legal or forced to leave?
Like MargauxBlack said: illegal workers cost like half the money a legal worker would cost. If everybody was legal, or only the legal workers stay, the employers would have to pay them more money and services would become more expensive.

Ok, my thougths didn't get any order, so I just hope that you are not too confused because of my style of changing from one aspect to another.
The bill about the immigrants shows one thing very well: You have to think about laws (especially if they are this controversial) twice or more often. Try to see them from different angles and you will see interesting new aspects.

DoubleD, I didn't think about it that way. I always hear about putting yourself in someone else's shoes, but its usually about something completely different. In this scenario, someone needs to get themselves to the United States in order to have more money to send back to their family for food, shelter, and other necessary commodities. However, where would the worker stay? Its expensive to live most places in Southern California. I used to live there for 16 years (I'm 19 as of now, kind of made it sound like I'm 50 or something), and my family went from paycheck to paycheck. It was rough. I had a few friends who were illegal, or at the time they were, and they constantly worked (it was his mother, aunts, and a few friends). Likewise, wherever I lived in California (just in apartments) there was always at least one apartment in my apartment building that had several people living there. What I'm getting at, since I brought up the cost of living issue, is that many people tend to live together in one househeld in order to bring up costs there, then send whatever money is left over back home.

Its not that many Mexicans are taking their entire families (I'm not saying all), its that they're taking themselves and if need be somebody else. Not that thats a problem, just bringing it up.

Anyway, California winds up being too expensive unless you live with other people. Arizona and Texas seem to be the ideal places to go because there is more manual labor; and on a lesser extent New Mexico.

One can also put themselves in the border patrol's shoes. They see these people getting into the country, trying to make a living, but they don't have to pay taxes while hard working citizens (or not hard working citizens) still have to pay.

I am of two minds on this issue. I like to think of myself as having a large softspot for other human beings, and I feel pity and sadness often with these cases. I would love to see immigrants from other countries come to the United States, become citizens, pay taxes, hold good jobs... you know, the warm and fuzzy American story. But that isnt always the case. While many people legitimately come to the United States, or any other country really, to better their lives, some others also come in to sell illegal items as well as try to harm us. I know it has been blown out of proportion in most cases since 9/11, but the fact that if a terrorist wanted to come into the United States via Mexico or Canada, they could. Its a scary thought, a rare circumstance, but worrisome nonetheless.

I wish we could have a quicker, more efficient system of controlling our Borders, while still allowing those desperate souls come to the United States to fullfill whatever dreams they may have. I know alot will end up in Poverty, by our standards, but it will be a better life for the most part than where they were. I really, truly feel sorry for those who dont make it into the United States, and those who dont succeed in their goals, but we cant really blame our Government either. The Border patrol have to do their job to keep out any possible wrong-doers and illegal items. Thats sad for the immigrants, but it is something that needs to be done. I guess if I had to give advice to immigrants who want to come to the USA, I would say: "Just hang in there, apply for entry to the United States legally, and do everything as orderly as possible. We, as americans in general, want people to come to the US, but we would like it done the proper way, so we are not the ones losing out (paying taxes and such)." Other than that, all we can really do is sit back and watch things progress, hopefully toward something better.

~Albus

I agree, Tom. I forgot to add something, which may be relevant. One of my professors a semester ago (Spring of 2006) told our class in Introduction to Ethnic Studies in the US that we should have some sort of "collaborative border". That wasn't what she said, but thats what it essentially is. Rather than having a set border (the maps would stay the same, of course), we would have a mixing of the two countries where commercial, other business, or whatever took place. Though it could be easier for people to enter since one couldn't monitor the place as efficiently (the place being the border). Or, like I said earlier, those on work visas could go there to do their work there (not much can be done there, though, because of the climate in terms of agriculture).

Just a quick question - are we allowed to talk about any immigration issues here, or would you rather just stick to the border issues you're talking about at the moment? It's just that I'm not too savvy about the Mexico/US issues, but I have a *whole* lot I'd love to get off my chest about immigration in the UK......

Its not my place to say, but the title says "Immigration, and other related issues", so I think immigration in the UK would fall under that heading. Plus, I dont know too much about immigration in the UK, and I am eager to hear more... so unless others have objections, could you please expound on that?

~Albus

Go ahead, Louise. The title of the thread is "Illegal Immigration," but I would be willing make it changed to "Immigration" in general. The topic was originally created due to a lot of discussion over the issue of immigration when we had an article on it in the Daily Prophet. Sadly, now that the media has stopped reporting on the issue, this thread has died down. If broadening its purpose will increase some discussion and debate, I'm all for it!

About immigration to London, at least, I know that the city is becoming as diverse as ever. When I visited last April (I believe it was April, at least), I found it very hard to communicate in English. I know it was a vacation time and many of the people there were visitors from other countries, but as I was walking through the streets, I think I heard every language spoken besides English! A waitress at one of the fish and chips places we went to for lunch barely even spoke english. We ended up having to point to the dishes we wanted for her to know what we were ordering.

Nonetheless, I thought it was great! Even more diverse than New York City, I think! All of the people from the UK probably know the situation a trillion times better. Care to share, Louise?




_daviD

Well since the door for the UK is open I'm going to dash in and talk about Australia.

We have too many immigrants here and I wish they'd stop coming. That might sound harsh to some people but oh well. I have many issues with immigrants and being only 21 no-one gives a flying cow what I think and that is frustrating, so I'll voice everything in here.

My main issue is the language barrier. I used to work in a supermarket as a cashier and it frustrated me to no end the amount of immigrants who came through and couldn't speak a word of English. They had no concept of our currency and majority of the time I had to ask (spell it out more like) for more money because they couldn't tell one bill from another. There is a debate here about making immigrants sit a test to see if they qualify to live and work here. I think that's a great idea! I don't care if they don't know who the Prime Minister is, I don't care if they don't know our national anthem, but if the test can get rid of those not willing to conform to Australian society then I'm all for it.

That's another big issue - They won't assimilate into our society. I think it's good that they keep their beliefs and rituals, no-one should force them to give up that. But if they live here they should follow our ways. We shouldn't be the ones changing for them, they should be changing for us. They've chosen to live here so they should take every step to ensure they are able to communicate and understand how things are done and what we expect of all citizens. I know someone whose parents came here roughly 20 years ago and know very, very, very basic English. 20 years! What is the point in moving to another country and not learning the language? missmugglebethany said it perfectly, if we were to travel to a different country we shouldn't expect them to work to aid us. We should make ourselves familiar with the language before going.

We have a Politician who is speaking out against immigrants. Pauline Hanson, former leader of One Nation and who spent 3 months in jail for something that I can't remember. Now she's back in Politics and I'm glad! She's saying what everyone is thinking. She wants people of different nationalities who come to live here to join our society, not set up their own. We've had turf wars on an Australian beach between two nationalities, and neither one was Australian. Truf wars in a country which isn't theirs! How did they come to that conclusion? The fact that we have to change to suit them is wrong.

I'm not sure how much Australian news the rest of the world gets but about a month or so ago there was an outrage at a Muslim Leader who said that girls wearing skimpy clothing brought rape and other violence on themselves, like they were asking for it. There has been an increase in racial violence these last few years and it's not Australians doing it. It's the people from other countries. The ones who came here for a better life. Well apparently. As far as I can tell they've come here to build their own country on our shores. It's like a war, but instead of conquering with armies they come in little groups, setting up camp everywhere and changing the landscape to suit themselves. That may seem like a harsh view point but I just call it as I see it. It's things like that that make me want to join Politics and voice my opinions publicly. But I think joining the silent revolution is better. Anyway, enough of my ranting. I've probably gone off topic a hundred times.......

That was very interesting, Tahra! We actually considered emigrating to Australia very seriously a few years ago. It's strange, but you have one of the strictest immigration systems I know of, and I understand where you come from.

Eight years ago we started worrying about South Africa and where things were heading. Things were (are, actually) getting progressively worse in terms of crime, AIDS, education and the nation's morale in general. So we decided to give Australia a try, but we had to go through the points system because my parents were already in their early thirties when the had me, so they were too old to qualify automatically. They had to earn points with their skills, and only two years later we heard from the Immigration office, because they select people at random intervals. It was pretty stressful! We just couldn't go though. Not now, anyway.

It's strange how these issues come in different guises. Britain, for example, has always been a very welcoming country to foreigners, but it looks like things are getting interesting now, with travel and communication developing so fast. And the EU...

It becomes a rather interesting question - how important is culture? Is it more important that a country's economy benefits, or is it more important to retain an image? I'm not sure what I think. I love my people more than makes sense. I think it's a reaction to the kind of contempt I am treated with for being Afrikaans sometimes. My heart wants to hold on to 'our ways', because in many aspects, they are good ways. Simple and innocent and safe. And then - I am of European descent. My ancestors were immigrants themselves. Our culture was only established because we moved to a different continent. If culture never changed, if it wasn't dynamic, I wouldn't even be where I am right now. I would not speak the language I love so much.

I can't deny others that chance. Things change. Is it always for the worse? Money and power has always been the driving force behind the world, and I wouldn't say we're that much worse off than people in ancient times, even though we have had a few centuries more time to destroy morality. If a country's economy benefits from having people from different cultures settling in new places - perhaps not conforming - will it have such a long term negative effect? How do you measure 'negative'? A new culture will simply form and those people will go on with their lives.

I know illegal immigration is something else - more of a short term problem ( one or two generations). I'm just talking of legal immigration - that's ok, yeah?

Ah, I have been given a free reign... Only kidding...

Okay then, here goes...

I am 100% with Tahra. Every single day on the news over here, Tony Blair is ranting about immigration, assimilation, integration, or whatever the latest buzz word is that the government has come up with to label what is a *huge*, burgeoning problem.

Now I am not in any way, shape or form criticising the genuine immigrants who want to claim asylum here because they are suffering extreme persecution or hardships in their own country. What I am against is the *hundreds* of people who come here every day, thinking that they are going to get an easy ride by sponging off our welfare system. Most of them are not even quiet about it - they're here all of two seconds before they start demanding this, demanding that...council homes, welfare, free health care...what about the people who are native British who are waiting for all these things? Why should we get bumped to the bottom of the list to make room for people who haven't even been here a year?

Most of them can't even speak English, and again, I'm with Tahra - if they want to come here, learn to speak our language. Would we expect to speak English if we went to their country? I don't think so.

It makes me so angry - especially when it gets to the point where they abuse our basic freedoms and use them as loopholes to start making demands.

One thing Tony Blair did say that I agreed with and that's integration. I don't mind people coming here, but if they want to come to Britain, then they've got to fit in with us, and not the other way around. Yes, they can wear what they want to, yes they can worship how they want to, yes they can speak their own language - but they'll also speak English, they'll learn how to use our currency, they'll respect our culture, our working practises, our uniforms and our dress codes. Just as we would be expected to do in their countries.

This is Britain - not an extension of wherever it is they came from. Fit in, or get out. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.



Exactly. They're not interested in integration - they just want their own way. And it is a war - a very silent one, and there is a very definite change in mood in this country at the moment. We always used to be very open and friendly, but it's really not so much like that anymore. The BNP is gaining strength, people are getting tired of minorities demanding that exceptions to rules are made for them...the times are definitely changing.

And you know what the funny thing is? I was talking to my mum about this the other day... How minority groups in HP are treated, people like Lupin. We all rant how terrible it is the way that werewolves are treated and how awful wizards are because they won't accept them, etc... I've done it myself, yet I feel the way I do about such minority groups in real life and I was puzzled by that - why my feelings about a mirrored fictional situation were so different. Then it struck me.

Werewolves aren't demanding homes, special treatment, free Wolfsbane, freedom to hunt as they want. They aren't protesting and ranting in public, trying to get all the wizarding world to conform to their way of thinking. In short, they don't get my back up. I feel sorry for them because they are misunderstood and generalised.

I can't feel that way about illegal immigrants. They're in your face, demanding everything, wanting to do whatever they want to, in effect, creating their own countries within ours. That's the difference.

I don't care if people come here for a 'Fair Go' but as everyone has said, most of them come to our countries to sponge off us. It's ridiculous. If I were to move to a different country I would work my butt off to fit in. I'd work for my money, I wouldn't dare dream of getting welfare, or living in government housing. The people who have lived and worked there their entire lives deserves preferential treament. I hate that I have to go on a waiting list for medical treatment or dental treatment and those who have just arrived get it on a discount and quicker then anyone else. We have Medi-care here and it's helpful to those of us struggling to survive, but they seem to get theirs for free.

There has been other debates abut the cultures within Australia. Mainly about people from different countries all moving to one area and making it like a piece of home. I'm fine with them setting up their own shops. I love to go to the U&R a Yugoslavian shop down the road because they have some really nice food. And they even have writing in English to help us out. But that's where others fail. They will write their signs, products, menus in their language and won't help us if we ask what it is. And half the time they don't even know the English word for it. That annoys me. We accommodate them, but they won't accommodate us in our own country. Makes me want to scream.

I think they need to make more of an effort in their own countries before coming to ours. I like the idea of them coming to our countries to go to school to try and make a better life for themselves, but only if they go back to their own country and work there. That way they are improving their lifestyles and not taking our jobs. Fair enough we have a lack of Doctors and Nurses here and after the last horrific event I think the scanning procedures will be upped quite a bit. We had a lady, or Korean decent I think, who employed people from her own country, lied about their skills, and got them jobs as nurses. They didn't have the proper skills but she lied about it and they got jobs, jumping ahead of those who are qualified. It's people like that who shouldn't be let in. There needs to be more background checks, then we'd all be better off.

I agree with the Werewolf thing. They are misunderstood. And as you said Louise, they don't ask for anything. They are trying to survive. Whereas the immigrants just want money and homes. Makes me wish we did have werewolves, then no-one would move here.

Being in different countries, I can add a few pennies of my thought. There are always two types of immigrants: the good and the bad. The good ones are usually those who try to survive on this planet earth, literally. They don't have anything called "homeland" (or their land of origin actually are hostile to them), so they try their best to live in another land, just to be alive and to live.
The bad ones are similar to ants who look for sugar. They just move to another land because they want easier and better life, on the cost of the local people. These are parasites.

America is a place with a headache for immigration. The vast majority of population can be traced back to be illegal immigrants (including those who came on Mayflower!). They were illegal because they were never granted official permit to stay, and yet they stay and eradicate the native people.
For centuries, England has been hosting various illegal immigrants from the various parts of the world (including the Saxons, the Vikings and the Normans). Now those are the "native" British.

The most important problem is greed. Some employers chose to hire illegal immigrants because they will work with lower pay (modern day slavery). This attitude will invite more illegal immigrants to come and thus, more problems.
Some immigrants decide to exploit the kindness of the welfare system, and certainly this will be unfair to the local people, and thus, more problems.

Some already mentioned clear solutions, but somehow not yet implemented.
- Employer should be controlled to hire only the legal workers (including legal immigrants) and treat them equally as human being.
- Immigrants should be handled according to their kinds. Those who are parasites should be removed. Those who are in need should be given protection and legal status out of compassion.

i like the example DoubleD gave of if you were a poor man from another country. i use an example similar to when people bring up immigration. i am for people coming to our country (i live in the United States). I understand that it is wrong to come over illegally but it is so much harder to come here legally. People ask why dont they just come here legally, well it takes so long to become a citizen, its not like it was 40 or so years ago. when my grandparents moved her from Mexico they went to the border and asked to become citizens. 30 minutes later they passed into the US with there temporary citizenship. They got their papers in the mail a few weeks later. Nowadays it can take 2 years or more to become a citizen.

As far as how people say they bring drugs into the country so we should keep them out, has anyone ever thought about why they bring drugs here? If they are coming here with drugs then they might be making a delivery, to who, an American citizen. They bring them here because the people in this country want them. What does that say about our people?

as far as abusing the welfare sytem, unless they are an American citizen and have a social security number they cant apply or receive the benefits of welfare. If you took a list of the people that are on welfare, the majority of it would be people who are american citizens. Same with unemployment, they arent coming here and taking our jobs. they are taking the jobs that other dont want to do or are to lazy to do. they come here and wash dishes or do housecleaning and im sure most people who complain that they took their job but unless they do one of those jobs they have no reason to complain.

Most people are under the impression that people who are here illegally dont pay their taxes. i beg to differ. my mom is a tax preparer for hispanic people, so i know that they pay taxes. they give the money to the government, american citizens will see that money again at somepoint. the money that they pay in their taxes is money that they are never going to see again. that money goes towards the welfare, and healthcare, and all the other things that the government uses that money for other things. they wont see that money ever again.

The U.S. is a country with people from many different backgrounds and countries. This country started as a nation of immigrants and still is a nation of immigrants, why change that?

*rubs hands axiously* I am so ready to dig in...
I live in Hawaii. In the middle of the Pacific Ocean and you would think that is a natural border-all that water but it is not. Most of our immigration issues stem from the Philipines, Samoa, The Marshal Islands...most of the pacific island and some countries in Asia like Thailand, Vietnam and Laos.

[quote name='Albus Dumbledore' date='Dec 7 2006, 10:20 AM'

I wish we could have a quicker, more efficient system of controlling our Borders, while still allowing those desperate souls come to the United States to fullfill whatever dreams they may have

I guess if I had to give advice to immigrants who want to come to the USA, I would say: "Just hang in there, apply for entry to the United States legally, and do everything as orderly as possible.
~Albus
[/quote]
~I agree that I wish we had a more efficient process of controlling and protecting our borders, while allowing those desperate souls to come looking for a better life. But what are we as citizens proposing or are we just sitting back with our complaints and comments to what our elected lawmakers are doing?
The thing that really busts my hump is that it seems like the people are not really talking about the issue of coming over illegally anymore. They are kind of pushing it to the side as if saying "accept us we are already here Oh and by the way, let me get Social Security Benefits too". The United States has offered to work with illegals to help them become citizens but they don't want to be U.S citizens. They want to work here, get paid here tax free and collect social security, retirement, workers comp. I don't think that is right.
If they want the benefit of a citizen-become a citizen.

QUOTE(Louise @ Dec 8 2006, 02:13 PM) [snapback]277191[/snapback]

What I am against is the *hundreds* of people who come here every day, thinking that they are going to get an easy ride by sponging off our welfare system. Most of them are not even quiet about it - they're here all of two seconds before they start demanding this, demanding that...council homes, welfare, free health care...what about the people who are native British who are waiting for all these things? Why should we get bumped to the bottom of the list to make room for people who haven't even been here a year?

Most of them can't even speak English, and again, I'm with Tahra - if they want to come here, learn to speak our language. Would we expect to speak English if we went to their country? I don't think so.

It makes me so angry - especially when it gets to the point where they abuse our basic freedoms and use them as loopholes to start making demands.

~This is 100% true it seems everywhere. I am a single parent of two children. I work full time and when finacallly able attend college part time. I am not on any type of welfare. I work hard. I have a great family and friends for support. I do not demand or disrupt the system or my environment.
Some of the illegals here keep having babies to get free money. They get food stamps(I don't qualify for some reason) and they buy steak and lobster and fresh vegetables--they don't carry jobs and if they do, it is none taxable under the table work for pennies knocking some other citizen from aposition because the illegal is willing to work for less then minimum wage. Sometimes I get so frustrated because although honorable, me and my children eat canned veggies and Ramen Noodles from a package. Dont get me wrong, Im not poverty stricken, but go into a supermarket and you will be able to tell which one is me from the welfare abuser. I'm the one stressed out with the calculator, wagon half full of food that I can make stretch for two weeks. The other has a full wagon with an easy expression upon there face because they just whip out their Food Stamps Card, pay for there perishable food-most likely for the party they are having that night and go home.
This might be slightlyoff topic but did you know that there is a two year wait list for any housing assistance for the State of Hawaii? random. sorry

QUOTE(slytherinlvr @ Apr 12 2007, 09:16 AM) [snapback]366036[/snapback]

as far as abusing the welfare sytem, unless they are an American citizen and have a social security number they cant apply or receive the benefits of welfare.
Most people are under the impression that people who are here illegally dont pay their taxes. i beg to differ. my mom is a tax preparer for hispanic people, so i know that they pay taxes. they give the money to the government, american citizens will see that money again at somepoint. the money that they pay in their taxes is money that they are never going to see again. that money goes towards the welfare, and healthcare, and all the other things that the government uses that money for other things. they wont see that money ever again.

The U.S. is a country with people from many different backgrounds and countries. This country started as a nation of immigrants and still is a nation of immigrants, why change that?

~We have had recent arrest for illegals charged with identiy theft. Hawaii is one of the largest areas of this kind of activity in the United States. I don't doubt that some illegals with a stolen identity may even pay taxes. My aunty's tax firm has had in the past needed to hand over documentation to the IRS as evidence in such a case. I'm sure it is few and far between but it does happen.
Yes, America was founded upon immigration and I don't want that to change. It is a part of our rich history and cultural diversity which I am so proud of. However, rules exist for a reason and if I have to follow them, I would expect nothing less for someone who wants the same benefits I get as a citizen. If both sides would bend just a little, perhaps progress could be made on this issue.
~nevillesgirl

who says that they dont want to become citizens here? its not that they dont its that it is too hard and takes to long. if the system was changed to make it easier you wouldnt have as many people here illegally. but seeing as how the government is currently split between the republicans and democrats it is very hard to try and get laws passed to make it easier for them to become citizens. i know that many bills have been introduced to deal with immigration but they dont make it very far. my mom and i keep track of these bills and what is happening with them.

the undocumented workers that pay taxes, most of them dont take social sercurity numbers from people or use fake ones. there are other ways for them to pay their taxes. what is more surprising is that the tas office that my mom works at, the undocumented workers are more willing to pay taxes than the american citizens. i know many people who are here illegally and they are more willing to pay taxes and they arent the richest people. they came so that they could provide a better life for their kids than what they had. what is so wrong with that? they work their butts off just to put food on the table, some of the kids hardly ever see their parents because their parents are working so hard to feed them and send them to school. that is more than i see some americans doing. those who are unemployed dont seem to be trying to get jobs, there are plenty of jobs they could have, they may not be the best paying jobs but there is something.

sure there are some illegals that use fake social numbers and take others, those are the ones that shouldnt be here. but arent there also many americans that do bad things such as drug use, murder, identity theft, etc. and what do we do about them? but the ones here that are doing there best to fit in, learning the language, and abiding by our laws, shouldnt we be doing something to give them citizenship?

I guess the pointI was so inarticulately trying to make was that both sides of the coin need a little flip. The lawmakers and the immigrants both need to give a little to gain a little...there has to be a compromise somewhere.
Yes, it may be a long hard, tedious process to gain citizenship but that doesn't mean that they should just throw up their hands in dispair and give up. Like I said the rules, whether or not they are good ones, still exist for a reason.

I applaud those who are in our country illegall and wish to pay taxes. That is not the case everywhere though. I breifly spoke of a few incidences I have heard of in my area of the United States and really the attitude does seem to be like just deal with us we are here. We are not going to become citizens or conform. And that, in my opinion is very frustrating. It sucks the opportunities and resources away from the citizens who may need them.

My great great grandfather jumped ship in the Hilo harbor back in the eighteen hundreds. He was supposed to return to Portual but instead worked in Hilo until he raised enough money to move to Honolulu. Once he was settled though he got his citizenship. It may take awhile but It can be done. Because he did this I have the opportunities available to me that he was searching for when he first got here.

but back in the 1800's it didnt take as long as it does now to become a citizen. my grandparents did that back in the 1900's when they came from mexico. now it takes so much longer. i agree that both sides of the coin need a flip. but with the government being how it is at this moment getting something from the lawmakers is going to take a while. i know that they are trying to come up with something to make it easier for them or something to that effect but its not getting through boths sides of Congress.

i agree that some of them dont want to be a citizen or conform to our ways. i think it is fine for them to keep their traditions with them in their homes and with their families. but when you think about it the american culture is just a blend of cultures from across the world. dont we have chinatowns in certain areas of the country? many of them do conform to our ways, they attempt to learn our language, and english is not a easy language to learn. i say that for trying to fit it and live like an american they do a pretty darn good job.

I agree that there are plenty of immigrants that are trying to do things correctly. They are the ones I have no problem keeping around. However, my experience with illegal immigrants is quite the opposite. They come here and try to take over. The US is having to conform to the immigrants needs. If you try to buy anything today, the writing is not only in English but in Spanish as well (and sometimes French). How many countries are including English on their products in the stores? I'm not sure; just really interested if other countries are conforming to other cultures like that.

There are at least 3 million illegal immigrants in the US. Probably more by now. Is there any question as to why it is so difficult to gain access legally? If it wasn't for all the illegals taking advantage, the US might be more accommodating to those trying to come legally. As it is, the US has the softest immigration laws. Mexico has better immigration laws than we do, and it's Mexicans that are trying to leave to come here (among others). I heard that if you are not a natural born citizen of Mexico, you couldn't buy water front property. They give preferential treatment to the natural citizens which I completely agree with. The US doesn't do that.

Once illegal immigrants gain access to the US, they seem to get better treatment than those that are citizens. Laws seem to protect immigrants and law-breakers better than law-abiding citizens. In other words, our law system seems to protect the crook more than the victim. It's ridiculous.

Anyways, if legal immigrants want to blame anyone for the hardships they encounter trying to come over to the US, they need to blame the illegals. I honestly dread the day (if it ever happens which I hope it doesn't) that the illegals are granted citizenship. The Democrats only want this to happen because they are banking on the illegals to become democratic voteres. If that happens, the Republican party will cease to exist. Well, it'll still be there but they will never have any control again because they will be greatly outnumbered. Not to mention, by granting them citizenship, it's like awarding them for breaking the law. What kind of example are we setting? We are just opening the door even wider for more illegals to come in in hopes of being given the same treatment.

My area also has a problem with illegal immigrants assaulting and raping our citizens. Frankly, we have enough people in this country that already do that. We don't need more illegals coming over here and making it worse.

Oh well. That's just my opinion.

What does it matter if the writing on products is in more then one language? Did it ever occur to you that some people that are here legally might be bilingual? Maybe they like to read things in other languages. There is nothing wrong with having things in other languages. I'm here legally and i speak both English and Spanish and i like to read things in Spanish sometimes. The US is not conforming to the immigrants ways.


The reason it is so hard to gain access legally to the US has nothing to do with the number of illegals that are here. You wouldnt believe how many people are trying to get into the US legally. They have to wait in a long long line for days just to get into the office where they may or may not get a visa.

Tell me, how do the illegal immigrants get better treatment then the citizens? I think they dont get any better treatment then the average citizen. Yeah, they have jobs when some Americans are unemployed but thats not there fault. The american who is complaining that the illegals are taking the jobs that they could have are too lazy to get off their butt and go look for a job. People who are here illegally cant get the health benefits that most americans have. They dont have a social so they cant get many things that americans have.

LittleRed7771, the problem in your area could be the same problem but with people that are here legally and are citizens. And unless you know for a fact that those people have no papers you cannot assume that they are here illegally. That is the one thing that gets on my nerves the most, people see someone who is Mexican and they assume that they are here illegally. Guess what, not all Mexicans are here illegally. I am Mexican and i am here legally but yet someone may see me or here me say something in spanish and assume that I am here illegally or that i am not a good person. You want the people in your area that you think are here illegally to be gone because of what they do, then get rid of the rest of the people like that, whether they are here legally or illegally.


People complaing that they come here selling drugs or with drug shipments, you know why that is? Its because the americans here want them. People complain that they are here doing things that are bad and being bad people, guess what, people who are citizens here do the same things and sometimes worse. Why not chuck those people out of the country? All the americans who are here selling/buying drugs and committing crimes. You cant assume that all people who are here illegally are doing this. And you cant assume that every Mexican you see is here illegally, because not all of them are. They arent the only race that has people here illegally.

I agree. Not all Mexicans are here illegally nor are all Mexicans "bad". If I offended you, I apologize. As I said, the ones that are here legally doing their part I am all for. I've known some very nice Mexicans and can tell that they are decent, kind, hard workers. However, the majority here is the opposite.

Just in the past month, we've had 2 different illegal Mexicans on the news for rape or assault. I know that doesn't sound like much when you compare it to all the Americans out there doing that sort of thing, but we can't send them back to their country because this is their country as well. We just send them off to jail. But we don't need illegals coming in and doing this. They need to be shipped back to where they belong.

Seeing as how you are here legally, you must have gone through the long process of being granted permission to enter. Since you did it the right way, do you agree or disagree with the way the illegals are coming in? Don't you think they should do it right like you did or not?

And I agree about the drug thing. Even if illegals weren't bringing it in, people would find another way to get it. There are plenty of citizens out there making tons of it as well. Me, I've never been one to be tempted by drugs. They just aren't worth it.

About the different languages on products, once again, I don't mean to offend, but if someone wants to come to the US to live, they need to accept our ways of living which includes our language. I'm glad you know both. That is great. But there are many out there who don't even try. The US's language is English. If you take the citizenship test to become a natural citizen, it is in English. Like others have said, an American can't expect to go to another country and expect them to speak English just because we do. It's not fair of us to ask that of other people in their own country. It's their country so we should conform to their ways and language. Why shouldn't we expect the same respect? The reason why I ask if other countries have multiple languages on their products is to see if they are being accomodating of other languages or are we the only ones?

But you are right, slytherinlvr. I shouldn't lay blame on the illegals for the slow process of coming into American legally. But you have to admit, it's not helping the situation. The threat of another terrist attack is the driving force for the difficulty and tedious process of coming into this country legally. I mean, can you blame Americans for that? We are just trying to keep our country safe. As for the illegals, considering there are illegals from many different countries, how do we know that there aren't some terrists among them that are hoping to be granted citizenship status so the can have access to unlimited resources just like a natural citizen to be able to plan another attack? It's quite possible. That's another thought that worries me. But of course, they could gain access legally as well. But I'm hoping that the long process required to come to American will be able to weed out the majority of them.

how can you say that the majority of Mexicans that are here are the opposite of the decent, kind, hardworking ones? Unless you have been to all the places where they are you cant make a generalization like that.

You are right that people that are here doing those things cant be sent back to there country because this is their country. But they all have a country of origin, where there family originated, you can send them there.

I think i should have been more specific when i said that i am a citizen here. I was born here, 15 years ago, i was born in a hospital in the United States. Just because there are Mexicans that are citizens here, that doesnt mean that they went through the process, some are born here. The illegals coming here are coming here the way that they know is the quickest. They are coming to provide there children with a better life and a chance to get an education. Instead of waiting 10 years or more to become a legal citizen they are coming so they can give their children a better life sooner.

You must not realize that those coming here are trying to learn English. You grew up knowing it as your first language, therefore you dont realize how hard it is to learn, especially when you are in your 30's and 40's. They are learning our language, it just takes a while. But inside their home they can speak whatever they feel like speaking. I only hear people complaining about the illegals here that are speaking spanish and do this and doing that. People dont realize that because they are here our economy is good.

The long process has nothing to do with the number of people coming through or the terrorists, it has to do with that our immigration system is screwed up. It used to take a lot less time for people to come over. Now it can take anywhere from 6-12 years to become legal here. It shouldnt take that long at all. But because Americans are do particular about the kind of people we want in this country, not many get through. They dont want people with certain illnesses and diseases, they dont want certain people for many reasons. Does that sound right to you? I think that isnt right at all. If our immigration system was fixed and whatnot then you wouldnt have as many people heare illegally. What needs to happen is an amnesty for all the people who are here already and then laws put in place so people can come here legally much faster.

Well, I guess I should have been more specific. When I said "the majority here is the opposite", I meant in my area. Not in the US as a whole.

And I guess I misunderstood you. I didn't realize you were born here. I thought you were implying that you had moved here. I apologize for the assumption.

As for sending people back to their countries of origin, that wouldn't really make sense. People who are born here obviously have the right to stay here. If you committed a crime, just because your family came from Mexico, doesn't mean you should have to be sent back there. You were born here and thus deserve to be here more than the illegals.

And I don't think the illegals should be given any amnisty or free ride to citizenship. That would be like rewarding them for wrongdoing. To compare (granted on a very small scale), that would be like a person shoplifting. You tell the shoplifter it was wrong but then allow them to keep what they stole without paying for it. It isn't right. They should have to go through the proper channels just like others who are doing it the right way.

I realize you don't agree with this or much else I had to say and that's fine. That's the wonderful thing about this world. Everyone has their own opinions. It would be pretty boring if we all thought alike!

What is so wrong with giving them amnesty? The only othe option is to send them back to their country (using the governments money to get them there) and making them wait 6-12 years to come back. I dont think so, that isnt what should happen. With the amnesty you should give them amnesty, but with requirements, pursuing an education, joining our military, or paying some sort of fee.

I don't want to be a racist, but immigrants in Greece is a huge problem. Ten years or so ago, a minister said "Let's not guard our frontiers, let the immigrants come to Greece freely." At this period of time, prisons in a neighboor-country let free all of their criminals who of course, came to Greece. So, one one hand, we have many criminals who are stealing from us and worst, killing us. On the other hand, the most *decent* immigrants, come here, make money with legal (or not) ways and just leave. It is partly our fault because we are getting arrogant and no longer want to do the hard stuff ourselves (like being a builder) so, we leave these pretty well-paid jobs for the immigrants. It is such a bargain. And i don't feel safe at my own country; it sucks. I am not afraid of Greek guys, i am afraid of certain immigrants. It is horrible.
Just the other day, i was at the bus station and this guy comes to me and says "Do you speak english?" and i said "yes" thinking that he might need some help. So he replied ''I just like you and i wanna talk to you". I totally freaked out. I just mumbled a "no" and walked away. I mean, come on!

ok i'm gonna go a bit back to the whole mexico/us issue...
i am a mexican and proud one too, yeah sometime our country does some stupid stuff at times but i blame our goverment, you see people cross the border cause we're wiped out of jobs, literally, and our goverment isn't doing much so people take matters into their own hands, why? cause they have a family and they want a better future.
When i was like 2 months old, my family and i went to the US, we had some problems here and we had to leave, so we got our Visa's and Passports and stuff and we were there legally until my Dad started working, see our visa only covered us as tourists therefore my dad had to work illegally (when i say illegally i don't mean he did illegal stuff but he wasn't allowed to work cause he was a tourist) but he had a decent job with a decent pay etc etc, as for the rest of us, we were put in school, since i was like 3 months old i don't know much about our first years there but my 2 sisters and my brother all speak fluent english as if we were citizens, my FIRST language was english, enough said. What i'm trying to say is, yeah it's illegal to cross the border without permission but we don't know what these people have gone through or what they're going through, most of the jobs mexicans have in the states are jobs that most americans don't want (cleaning, fast food, etc etc) and like slytherinlvr said most of the US economy depends on illegal immigrants.

ok moving on to Louise's comment



see i plan on studying music at LMS (London Muisc School) cause there aren't many schools here with a music program and the few that do are lousy. Ok i'm getting to my point, the school not only offered me a loan to help pay school but they also offered me a place to stay, food and an opportunity to actually make something productive out of my music. Of course i agree with you on the whole itergration, because not only am i willing to give up my lifestyle just to do so, i'm not a big fan of uniforms but if they're necessary and it's in the countries dress code then i will use a uniform. All i'm trying to say that this: we should give everyone an opportunity, i got one but there are tons of misfortunate people who face an even bigger war: life. No job, no financial income whatsoever, no food and no roof above their heads. I'm not trying to justify what illegal immigrants; i'm just simply saying that we have to be a bit more patient cause like i stated before, we don't know what their current life situation is.



sometimes the minorty gets blamed for the majorities acts, there are some illegal immigrants who are just trying to get a better lifestyle and not by demanding but by hardwork and dedication. I'm pretty sure that they don't like being away from home, but they're away cause in a sort of way.. they have no choice.

i agree with cruciatus_andy, we dont know what things the people that come here have been through. Many of my family's friends that have come here had a very rough life where they came from and were barely able to provide food for their families. The people that come here, come here looking for an oppurtunity, why not give them a chance? Yes what they did isnt right but, when they are good hearted, kind, and hardworking people they deserve a chance.

I know many people who have applied for papers and are still waiting for them to come throught. I have a really good friend who just last year his dad, his brother, and him all sent in paperwork to file for citizenship and i hope that they are granted citizenship. They are some of the nicest and hardworking people i know.

I think our country needs to not think so badly about the people that are coming here and just assume that they are all bad, horrible, lazy people who just want to mooch off of our country. Most of the people that i know are here illegally are much more hardworking then those who are here legally. Sometimes they are even nicer, more caring, and more willing to help then those who are here legally.

We should make it possible for them to get citizenship easier than it is right now and give them all an oppurtunity

Um but why shouldn't sending them back be an option? I mean if illegals are in America illegally then unless they decide to become a naturalized citizen or apply for a workers visa or something, they are still not following the laws of America. If you are not going to follow the laws legally, then you really shouldn't be here.
Amnesty is not the answer. When in Rome do as the Romans do...that saying pretty much applies to America. No one can take away your culture or pride of what ever country you immigrate from but if one is coming to America to work or start a new life, then there are rules and procedures to follow. Just follow them.

To say that Americans need to get off there lazy butts is a bit unfair also. Not all Americans are lazy just like not all Mexicans or other immigrants are in America illegally. I know a good amount of Americans who are just down on there luck looking for work. I also know a few Americans who are qualified to work in certain professions but are passed over for an illegal because it is cheaper to hire an illegal under the table with no benefits. How does that seem fair to you?

This thread is not about arguing with one another. It is about getting our point of views across and you bring up some valid points. There should be a better way, a more efficient way of making the transition from illegal to natualized citizen. There should be a more efficient way of applying for citizenship. However for the moment things are just messed up and citizens of the USA and the immigrants need to discover a way to progress and not digress.

i agree that there needs to be a more efficient way of becoming a citizen, but there isnt and i dont see there being an efficient way anytime soon. If someone is being passed over for a job then thats not right, but i hardly ever hear about that.

If illegals are able to find jobs cleaning hotels and working at fast food restaurants then others should be able to find them too. they might just not want that job so they dont apply for it. They dont want a minimum wage paying job, they want a job that pays lots of money.

If there was an easy way for all the legals to apply for citizenship and get it then i would say there is no need for amnesty. but since there isnt, instead of sending them back to the horrible lifestyles they were living, give them amnesty so they have an oppurntunity to make things better for themselves, but with the conditions that in return the further their education or join the military or something.

Hm, alright. No need to argue people! Everyone is entitled to their own views, and I know very well that the immigration topic is a rather controversial one since it touches everyone.

I have to agree with this statement made by Amanda:


This happens in Greece all the time. Albanians, Russians and other immigrants are paid less, since they have no insurance and they pay no taxes, so they are the ones to be hired more often at tough jobs, like building houses etc. However, Greeks are preferred when it comes to more "serious" jobs where a diploma is needed. It is a very common phenomenon. On one hand, people get angry because of that. But on the other hand, no Greeks want to work at constructions, so they shouldn't feel offended. Someone has to do it!

Amnesty is used I think when an immigrant is chased by his/her country, mostly for political reasons. What should be done, is make them legal citizens with papers, salary, the right to vote etc. From my experience, if you try to leave someone out, to marginalize them, then they will react violently. However, if you try to integrate them, they will accept that. It is a very difficult task, because even if you integrate them, they will want to maintain the cultural differences they have.

From what I've seen so far, the immigrants of second and third generation (which means the kids of immigrants who were born in another country) are better adjusted in our society, and they are used to the way of living we have here. The more the years pass, the more they adopt the greek way of thinking. It's only natural. And it's actually better since they don't feel excluded and they are able to form a future of their own without being discriminated against.

As for getting the papers, this is another result of what we call "bureaucracy". It is not easy but let's not forget that these people want to change their identity. It shouldn't be easy, should it? Because if it was easy, then there would be a chaos of people storming in other countries uncontrollably. I don't know if this makes sense.

Anyhow, I believe that immigrants should be treated at least with respect if they haven't given any signs of illegal behaviour (such as committing crimes). I put myself in their position. If I ever decide to move to another country, I'll want to believe that I will be treated equally to everyone, being a human being myself. It will be hard, but it shouldn't be impossible.

I found this to be quite interesting:


This sounds harsh, but in reality these are the MEXICAN Immigration laws/standards! Limbaugh inserted "United States" to prove a point. The immigration laws that are being proposed are no-where near as strict as what the Mexican government enforces in its own country, and the irony of it all is the Mexican government is outraged at what the US is wanting to enforce. Can anyone say Double Standard?!

I am somewhat biased because in North Carolina (where I live) the increase in the latino population has increased over 300% since the last census (I believe that was 2000). We now have neighborhoods with billboards and shop signs in Spanish instead of English (I live in the Raleigh area, which is the capitol). Crime has increased and more and more of these criminals are latino (not just from Mexico). One of the biggest is the incidents of drunk driving. In the last 3 months over 7 people have been killed by latino drunk drivers, all the drunk drivers are here illegally, one of them had even been deported twice before!

Now, I realize not all illegal immigrants are drunken latinos! I have met many who are very hard working people who, bottom line, want better lives for their families, mainly their children. I am the PTA President-elect at my son's elementary school, and these families bring their kids to all the family oriented events, even if they, themselves can't communicate with us, they make sure their kids can enjoy a "normal" life. We (as a PTA) make sure all info that goes home is in English and Spanish because we want to make sure all students at our school feel welcome (and informed).

I really wish there were an easy answer for ALL countries having to deal with immigration problems. I am familiar with the problems in Britain (my best friend lived there for a while) and with Greece (I have learned about all sorts of immigrants through friends in Greece, as well). It seems that a good many people who are in ANY country illegally are just trying for better lives. The horror stories of what some people have gone through to get to the US or Australia or the UK or anywhere else is enough to want to save everyone from their lives back home. We are all human beings and we all deserve a chance at a better life, unfortunately there are some out there with an "entitlement" mindset that tend to ruin it for the rest of those that just want to make it own their own.

OK, I think I'll get off my soap box for now!
Kathleen

Kathleen, I was waiting for you to be a member in the Great Hall to see what you have to say when it comes to immigrants. When I read your reply at your application, I really enjoyed it and was glad to see someone who has a very logical way of thinking, without letting personal beliefs get in the way.

The truth is that governments are trying now to be very strict towards immigrants. The economical issues all around the world, combined with pollution, high rate of unemployment and crime, are making things harder. Thus, politicians try to protect each country by setting rules like the ones you posted.

I live in Greece, so I have personal experience about the problems we face here. A few years ago, one politician considered it a good idea to let immigrants live in Greece, without adopting protective measures. The result was that things changed dramatically. I don't accuse immigrants for every issue we have, but I know that it is harder to deal with our economical situation when people keep coming here illegally. One of the most known streets in Athens is filled with foreigners selling fake bags etc which are not taxed of course. So, there is a mess and I'm sad to say that noone is actually doing something.

I really want to read what you have to say about this issue Kathleen!

Alkisti,
Thanks for your response. The insight I have on illegal immigrants (or legal) in Greece come from 2 different US missionaries. One couple works for PORTA which ministers to Albanian refugees/immigrants and the other works for the ARC (not sure what it stands for) but is mostly ministering to Iranian, Iraqis and Russian immigrants/refugees. From what I understand, many of these people entered Greece under the immigration standards you listed and now due to the great influx of of immigrants it's just a huge problem. Both these ministries are in Athens, by the way.

As for NC (North Carolina) many illegal immigrants come here because it is so easy in this state to get LEGAL documentation, namely a driver's license. No proof of citizenship needs to be given, and as long as you can prove residency and insurance you've got your license. Due to the increase in number of latino immigrants there are many organizations to help these people with their "rights". I don't know how other's believe on what kind of rights people should enjoy at the taxpayers expense, but my stand is: if you are here illegally, and it doesn't matter from which country you came, you do not deserve the subsidized benefits given to low-income peoples. It's just a matter or principle.

I've read your earlier posts, as well, and the same is true here as far as certain jobs going to illegals. Here it's mostly construction and landscaping. A friend of mine from NY told me that when her father moved to NC he expected to be able to get a decent paying construction job and was very surprised at how little construction pays here. In NY I believe construction is considered a unionized job and it pays very well. We don't have a lot of unions in the South (southern US), so many of that type of job are much lower paying.

We have a lot of road work crews around the area, so these people are hired by the city or state to handle road construction. My guess is this work is sub-contracted since the majority of the workers I've seen are latino. I have to wonder if their immigration status has ever been checked. I think if you are working on a government job/property that you MUST be a US citizen (or citizen of whatever country you're working in). A couple of years ago, when all this immigration stuff came to a head in the US, there were several illegal immigrants who were caught working on a US MILITARY BASE! They were subcontractors whose status had never been verified. They were rounded up in a sting operation and deported. I used to work for an airline and had security clearance at the airport. Most of the workers doing the cleaning/janitorial/restaurants were foreigners. I don't know what their status was, but since a lot couldn't speak English I often wondered if they were legal. These people also had security clearance (to be in the "sterile" areas of the airport), so that is a bit unnerving.

I hope we're not the only ones posting. I'd like to hear others' views on this.

Kathleen

Sincerest apologies everyone, I have pulled an all nighter and I live in Florida and it's almost 7:30AM . I should have been sleeping 8 hours ago! lol So I haven't been able to read all responses but I promise I will. When I saw the title of the topic, it automatically brought back a memory that I have. A few years ago I was reading an article in my school newspaper, and I'm not sure if this has been discussed or if it's even valid to be discussed, but I was reading about how when the US Coast Guards are on the look out for immigrants, somehow there are 'rules'. Let me explain. There were stories about how Haitians have try to make there way over here to the US, by getting to Florida, but either they get caught in the waters or when they touch land they get sent back. Now they were [I'm not sure if they still are] mad at the US becuase it is different for Cubans. If the Cubans are caught in the water of course they are sent back, but then there is this 'wet foot, dry foot' law that Florida has for them. If they [Cubans] reach land before getting caught they are allowed to stay until further notice. But some actually end up staying. Now it was different in the 80's; there was something called El Mariel or the Boatlift as its also known in english. Which is pretty much a time where over 200,000 cubans were sent in boats to Miami in the early 1980's and it was all legal [So my parents are legal ]

Incase you want to read up more on it here is an article 1

Now there is this 'Wet foot, fry foot' law that apparnetly applies only to cubans, and the Haitians feel discrimintaed I should say for the sake of arguement. Now I just really want to know what are you're thoughts on that. I hope this is allowed or it falls under the topic, if not then please ignore


Nicole

I just wanted to post some interesting statistics that was circulating the emails. Please note that the L. A. Times has since debunked these claims, saying that it is a gross exaggeration and that it is being used to target the hispanics living in California.

I guess my question is if these statistics were true, how could America justify the illegals status by continuing to allow U.S. residence to support them while they don't pay taxes?

Do you think this type of mass hysteria email acheived the result it was supposed to have generated?

How much of this email do the Great Hall members believe is actually true?



From the L. A. Times
1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people)are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. Are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County. )

(All 10 of the above are from the Los Angeles Times)


Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare . Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida , and New York) results from immigration. 29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens .

I would say that the majority of these statistics do seem far-fetched (at best). However, I do not doubt that there is some truth behind the hysteria. Living in a state with a large influx of latino immigrants I see first hand many of the problems caused by illegal immigrants:

* There is a disproportionate amount of crime (usually gang-related, drunk driving, drugs) committed by illegal aliens as opposed to legal citizens (whether native or immigrant).

* Many sub-contracting jobs are done by illegal immigrants being paid cash "under the table"

* There is a rise in gang violence and many of the "new" gangs have latino ties
(all the above are for NC)

I have posted before regarding immigration status opposed by other countries, and especially by Mexico. Mexico has much stricter immigration laws than the United States and yet we (the United States) are being criticized for wanting to put more restrictions on immigration (at the most) and wanting to enforce the current immigration laws (at the least). It is also important to note that not all illegal immigrants are from latino countries. Many are from all corners of the world, all wanting a better life for themselves and their families.

Our country is having enough trouble taking care of its legal citizens without having to take on the burden of illegal immigrants, regardless of where they are from. Of course it is natural to take care of human life. The United States prides itself on helping the underdog, as we well should. However, when there are large areas of our country that live below the poverty level and with so much unemployment, we should not turn our backs on our own citizens, our OWN underdogs. When we have people in our own country without running water, electricity, basic health care, and education we need to stop worrying about pouring money into services that advance the welfare of illegal immigrants and put that money into improving the lives of the people of Appalachia, the Colonias of Texas, the destitute mining communities of West Virginia, the Native American reservations, and so many other rural areas of our great country.

We need to stop focusing on over-inflated statistics and instead focus our efforts on enforcing our current immigration laws and helping those that are here illegally (and WANT to be here as law-abiding citizens) gain legal residency status. Once we take immigration seriously we can then take these statistics seriously.

Whenever I see reports of illegal immigrating on the News, I feel horrible. Not because I feel that the immigrants are going to bring horrible things to my country, but because I don't think they deserve to be kicked out just because they want a better life. I think that the process of becoming an American Citizen, or a citizen of any country for that matter, should be a bit easier, or we should focus more on getting help to the countries that are trying to immigrate. There are so many worries about over-populating the countries because of all the people immigrating, so shouldn't we be doing something about it?

If we gave those countries that need help the supplies they need to live, they wouldn't have to sneak themselves into other countries. They could live in their own homes with the luxuries of life that they hope to find in their destinations. If we made sure that every person who was starving had food to keep them alive, and medicine to keep them from getting sick, they wouldn't need to seek it themselves.

The leaders of the United States are always saying how we are so helpful to the underdog countries, and that we always make sure they have what they need to live well. If that is true, why do we have so many illegall immigrants trying to get into the country for better lives?

In light of the fact that President-to-be Obama has an aunt here in the US illegally, illegal immigration has recently become a topic of interest again. Here is an article discussing this topic. What do the duellers think? Considering the overwhelming numbers of immigrants in the US, should the government take new measures to lower this number? Should amnesty be given to those who have been here a certain number of years? Should additional punishments be given out to those who have skipped out on their deportation deadline?

What bothers me the most is that illegals are within whichever country, and I'll just say the USA because that is where I am a resident, but they are here despite the rules. There are laws and rules and we live in this country and are expected to follow them. Why is is so difficult to just follow the rules?

I don't know how I feel about granting amnesty to those who have been in the country for a certain number of years. It is almost like rewarding them for being clever enough to escape being caught. But at the same time would it really be worth the expense to forcibly detain, then remove them by deportation to their own country? I don't know. All I know is that I pay taxes, by law I am obliged to pay taxes and illegals don't. There are some law abiding citizens that hold down jobs, who can't afford health care but don't qualify for welfare medical benefits. They struggle to make mortgages and put food on the table to feed their families and then there are illegal immigrants. They have medical benefits for their families, they have an alloted amount monthly for groceries and they don't pay taxes. This is if they get welfare benefits. If they don't and they are working, they bring home more in take home because they are probably getting paid under the table and avoiding all the Federal and State taxes. They say they are being persecuted or treated unfairly but in my opinion what is unfair is having to pay higher taxes to support them.

What exactly will happen to President Obama's Aunt? I don't think he is going to force her to leave. It is unfortunate that when operating under the honor system as the article stated, that the said immigrants were not trustworthy enough to leave on their own. My feelings is that if the government has given an illegal a specific time limit to leave a country and the said immigrant defies that order, the time for being polite is past. Their only choice should not be having to show up at a hearing and then deport. We know they are not going to show up. The article said they didn't show up. They should be taken into custody, put on the plane and taken back to whatever country they are citizens. I know my views are harsh but I believe that everyone should be held accountable to make their choices. If the choices you make don't fall within the letter of the law, then effectively you give up your right to a choice and you must comply with the consequence.

Of course there is one way to avoid all of this mess. Become a citizen.

I am generally against illegal immigrants because over the last ten years in particular I have seen how they have flooded into the country and are allowed to stay merely on human rights grounds.
It makes matters so much worse to hear that because they have no right to work over here our taxes are being spent to fund lavish lifestyles for those very people who are already here breaking the law when we are expected to uphold it.

I moved abroad recently and for around five months and found that I was an illegal immigrant but not through my own fault, rather because the particularly incompetent guy at the embassy couldn't tell me something as so simple as to fill out a certain form. However, I didn't cadge off the taxes of the residents of this country, I paid my own way and have used no public services so far. Luckily a kind friend was able to point out my situation in time so I can live here legally now^^

In Britain, illegal immigrants now have more rights than the most law-abiding citizens. There is the most pathetic craze sweeping Britain courtesy of the Labour government which is called political correctness for those of you who haven't heard it by now. It is particularly maddening because it goes against all sense of reason and logic. So here we are, stuck with so many illegal immigrants that the Home Office even admits to not knowing how many are there.

There are these so-called detention centres for illegal immigrants and I would say no to them but for the fact that the majority, if left to wander freely, will lose themselves in the streets of Britain and so make themselves untraceable to the government and if they can't be found they can't be sent back to their original country.

It is also a fact that a large percentage of illegal immigrants in and around London are to blame for a large percentage of the crime whether it be stealing, assault or murder as in recent years. There is also the unforgivable crime of children trafficking which is undertaken by growing numbers of illegal immigrants most notoriously to cheat the benifits system.

There is this thing where illegal immigrants cannot work in the UK but many do anyway. There is also a thing where they don't have to pay taxes but still get the best council houses and benifits up to their eyeballs. If they were to earn their place here then yes I would be all for it but it is hard to pity the vast majority who go to Britain knowing exactly that they will not be thrown out and that they will receive everything free. There was such a case where a woman enteredBritain illegaly and was not thrown out. The first thing she did was wrote to her family and friends and said 'hey come to Britain, you get everything for free'.

There are those who will come here for work and will then do their bit whether they are here legally or not but too many sadly use the resources without a second's thought for those whose sweat it was that paid for the Playstation3 in their livingroom or the state-of-the-art dishwasher in the kitchen.

That, and much much more, is why I left the UK.

Illegal immigration is definitely a double sided blade. The government needs to crack down on the security at the borders, but at the same time, everyone deserves a chance at a better life.

It is a bit of a double edge sword, but all an immigrant needs to do is to do it legally. Sure, it takes time, but as the adage goes, "All Good Things are Worth Waiting For".

It seems to me that many illegals are getting the jobs many citizens don't want to do. I'm talking about the labor jobs, the back braking jobs. C'mon now, really, how many citizens want to pick lettuce for a living? An immigrant who gets into the U.S. legally may start out in jobs that most Americans don't want to do, but many of these people are ambitious enough to better themselves. They too want a part of the American Dream. And, in the U.S, (I can only speak for my country), the opportunities are there.

So then, who will be left to pick the lettuce, if not for the illegals?


.

Right now there are people in our Hospitals being treated for burns. They aren't Australian Citizens. They are illiegal immigrants who tried to enter Australia by boat. ever since Rudd came into power there have been more and more people smugglers trying to bring people into Oz illegally. I'm sick of it. We're wasting our time and money on people who shouldn't have been trying to cross the ocean in a little broken boat in the first place. And now they're blaming us for it! Our gov has to investigate the Coast Guards who tried to intercept the boat because it's been claimed that they set the boat alight or did something that made it erupt into flames which resulted in their injuries and people missing. Would this have happened if they'd flown in with a Visa? No. Would this have happened if they'd tried to do the right thing? No. Everyone wants a quick fix to their problems and when it doesn't happen they resort to foolhardy schemes and get hurt or killed. Surely these people who pay the owner of a broken boat to come over here know better. They can't be that stupid that they don't know we won't allow them to stay illegally and I don't want to believe their stupid enough to trust a rickety boat to travel thousand of kilometres over the rough sea.

Our borders need to be policed more heavily. Rudd needs to get off his butt and do the work he's supposed to do, not go jetting around the world like he has been. It's because of him that these people got hurt, if he'd left Howards border rules in place they wouldn't have come over. When Howard was in power there was a handful of people smugglers trying to get in. Since Rudd came into power.....10+. I hated Howard but at least he kept our borders free from illegal immigrants with fake papers trying to steal our jobs and houses. No wonder Aussies are fed up.

I have absolutely no problem with immigration as long as it is done legally! One of the things that bugs me about illegal immigrants is that most of them don't bother to learn english. There was something a little while ago where an employer got in trouble because he couldn't speak an illegal's language. Hellooo... You are in America, mister! I don't think employers should have to speak anything but english. If someone wants to come here to live, I think they should have the courtesy and common sense to learn the language, at least the basics. All of our government forms are printed in English on one side and this other language on the other. It's almost as if they are promoting people to come here illegally. I know, I for one wouldn't go to a foreign speaking country without learning the lingo first. There are so many illegals here that have been here for years, that still can't speak a speck of english. They have to have their kids with them wherever they go as a translator. Of course, who needs to learn the language when all of the important forms are printed in their native tongue? But maybe it's just me that finds this extremely irritating.