Something interesting occured to me today whilst I was sat there on my lunch break, reading PoA....

Now, I know what everyone is meant to think of Professor Trelawney and her predictions, including McGonagall, DD and Hermione, (and all JKR's readers, of course) but I couldn't help but notice several of the things she said in 'Talons and Tea Leaves' actually turned out to be pretty accurate...for example:-

1. She told Lavender Brown that 'the thing she's been dreading' would happen on Friday, 16th October - and her rabbit died....yeah, okay, in real life, most people would probably think this was coincidence, but this is JKR and fiction - why would she put it in otherwise?

2. She knew Neville would break a cup - yeah, okay, again, in real life, probably coincidence...anyone who knows Neville could have made that prediction, but it was his first class with her...and again, this is JKR...

3. Although not directly made by Trelawney, Ron sees 'trials and suffering' coming Harry's way...he's certainly had those...but then happiness? Maybe that's still to come for him?

4. Again, not exactly Trelawney, but Ron sees 'an unexpected windfall' in Harry's tea cup - the Triwizard Tournament was certainly unexpected....

5. She saw 'the falcon' in his cup...yeah, okay, again....she could have made that up, knowing who Harry was, but it was still right though, wasn't it?

6. She saw 'the club' - an attack - Harry was attacked in the graveyard in GoF...

7. And obviously, then we have the Grim...now whether this foretold Sirius coming to him, or...er...ultimately what happened to our beloved Padfoot could be taken either way, but she nonetheless foresaw death....and there is another 2 books to go....

Maybe there'll be other things that crop up as I get through the book, but I just thought I'd mention these to see what you guys thought about it.

Ultimately, I suppose, what I'm trying to get at is whether JKR is slipping clues in to what Trelawney says at the same time as having all the characters ridicule her so that we, as readers, won't take them seriously either. Wouldn't it be ironic if everything Trelawney predicted turned out to be more or less right after all?

I see your point....and obviously what with THE PROPHECY and all, she can't be a complete hack, that's for sure...but the twice she was actually proven to be right, and was doing proper seer-ing, happened quite scarily differently to all those things there, didn't they?

Yeah...I mean, her moments of true inspiration seem to be almost as though she was possessed. I'm not really saying that I think everything she says was dead-on-balls accurate though.... I just meant that everyone seems to disregard everything she says so easily, and I'm just wondering if maybe JKR is using that as a bit of a writer's in-joke, you know?

*nodnod* I guess so....
But then there's Luna Lovegood for that kind of role...you know, says weird things, everyone goes Mmmm...Hm. all sceptical like, and then she often turns out to be right...

When she does her gruff voice and rolly eyes thing she's accurate. But I really think the rest of the time she's just well...a fraud. There are way too many coincidences and just looking for connections with those really vague predictions isn't really finding anything. For instance, the "club" could've signified an attack but she knows Harry Potter. Harry gets attacked everyday, whether verbally attacked by Malfoy, dodging Bludgers in Quidditch, attacked with problems from homework. There's just way too many possibilities.

Well the ones with Ron are from the books, so that doesn't really count as Trelawney's predictions.

What do you mean by the one with the falcon? What did that predict?

But of course, the telephone works both ways so I'm sort of stuck in the middle.

Oh and when Trelawney told Umbridge she was in big trouble, it was true haha. Umbridge was asking for it. (But all the teachers were forming a conspiracy against her so that was something Trelawney already knew without her "Third Eye").

hmm i never really thought trelawney was a complete fake. she did state the prophecy, and that part in PoA when she was posessed to say something about peter. but she probably is a bit of a fortune teller, not the future like 5 years from now, but like probably a hours, days, weeks from now from what you said. thanks

*gasps* MY 300TH POST! YAY hehe. officially a third year

The falcon was supposed to represent a mortal enemy - obviously Voldemort, which anyone who knows Harry could have picked up on really.

But like I said, in real life, I don't believe in predictions one little bit - you can make things happen yourself once you hear something....but my point was I don't understand why JKR would have put in things that were at least vaguely right. All I really wondered was whether Trelawney had more than just moments and if perhaps something she said (aside from the prophecy) is JKR's way of giving clues...

After all, a lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths....and vice versa.......

BTW, doomed, congratulations!!! Whoop, whoop! **does Joey-like victory dance** Welcome to the seniors!!!

The thing is, like, for example, in seances, that was a common trick mediums would use, I forget what it's called, I'm just remembering that Derran Brown seance that was on TV a few months back, where they'd say completely nebulous things, and people would apply it to themselves and believe that they'd been contected by their late Auntie Frank, or something...

I'm assuming JKR knows at least a little on the subject of the occult, and maybe had the intention of Professor Trelawney being like that, you know?

**ponders** Yeah....I guess...I mean, that's always been my biggest criticism of psychics in general really. They say such wide, sweeping things that apply to everyone in some way really because at the end of the day, we're all human and we all live similar sorts of lives...we all have similar wants, needs, hopes and desires so a good 'psychic' will read body language, tone of voice and so on and just keep chucking 'darts' of information until eventually, one of them sticks in the board, you know?

Maybe she does have the intention of making Trelawney like that....is she coming back, BTW? Or is it all down to Firenze now?

(Who is pretty hot on the old predicting malarky, BTW )

Yeah I'd been thinking about this as well, Trelawny is right more often than not in her predictions... I doubt all these things are coincidences, though we're definetely made to believe they are. JKR wouldn't have included all these "coincidences" if there weren't a purpose to them. The difference between her normally and her in gruff, possessedish mode... is that her predictions are a lot more vague normally than they are when she's gone all scary.

She got all those things that were mentioned in class right, though she wasn't specific... like the whole "one who will leave us forever" thing... whereas the prophecy was well, specific. very specific really... with quite a lot of details, though what they mean is not totally clear..

Oh yeah! I'd forgotten about that one!! Doh!! **smacks self in Homer Simpson like way** The most important one too!!!

Yep, she certainly did predict Hermione leaving, didn't she? A lot of people misinterpreted it to mean that someone was gonna die, but still, she was right....

lol that would be funny if every think she siad was raight then she would be like ha ha told you so

I'd like to add a bit on the prediction...

I had noticed that she was right about those things, but I didn't really give it much thought, but now that you bring it up it's got me thinking about that part where she comes down to eat dinner and she says that the first to stand from a table of 13 people will be the first to die. Ron and Harry stood up and no one knows which one stood first. It would be really freaky if this came true (however doubtful) But it would so be horrible if she were right about this too. Wouldn't it?

But I honestly think she's just being silly and it was just some crap she said to scare people and all that and that it won't come true.

I don't find it too doubtful... had been wondering about that myself. *wonders which one stood up first*... gah. It sucks cause that pretty much means that one of them has to die, if she's right I mean... and honestly I can't think of a time when she hasn't been at least partially right. Even with her seeing the Grim, she just misinterpreted what she saw as the Grim... she still really did see a big, black dog... just not the one she thought she was seeing :-/

Honestly I think it was Harry that stood up first and he's going to die and so is Voldy. But Ron had better not. Hermione needs him and Harry will probably give up his life for the good of all and all that other hero stuff. But NOT Ron! lol

Perhaps if two people stand up, the superstition is broken. Mainly because it's not the first oneS but rather the first one.

Anyway, "sibyl" which is a common noun that means a fortune-teller. Incidentally, it's Trelawney's first name. So maybe she is a real Seer and has the Third Eye.

What Trelawney is? My greatest guess is that it's somewhat close to "Trelawny" as in "Trelawny of the Wells". I have no idea what Trelawny means though so I don't know about that.

i think trelawney is vaguely right even when she makes a normal prediction... (no gruff voice).. but like discussed before about 'the first to rise shall die'... ron and harry definitely stood up first...

(book 6 spoilers ahead).. but considering harry nor ron died first out of the 13, this would mean trelawney's wrong. unless by the tiniest chance, ron had scabbers in his pocket.. that would mean 13 people were dining already and when trelawney came to the great hall, dumbledore stood up to welcome her... it's a real long shot, i know.. but my brain never usually works overtime. i was just thinking...

edit: had scabbers escaped before the christmas dinner? i'm not so sure, haven't read it in a while...

but yeah, trelawney has been pretty right with all her predictions, i dont' see why she was wrong this time.

well, hope you all enjoyed hbp like i did.. and i cannot wait til goblet of fire (december for us australians)

shes definatelly not a complete fraud, but a lot of times she just says things for the sake of her keeping her teaching post. but i believ she is a seer, just not a very good one.

Well prof. trelaway in my opinion resolves to mostly guesswork, but since she has some seer blood in her, she occasionaly tells correct prophecies, not that she can remember telling them. I mean when she tells harry he will suffer and face fears, It's not really a guess, because it's safe to say voldemort will make sure that much happens. What she does is kind of like horoscopes, they're really general so a lot of happenings can relate to them, and once in a while there are coincidences.

In the third book Professor Trelawnley says that Harry will die. This may have seemed like a laugh to most people but lets take her seriously for one moment! She did after all make the the prophecy between Harry and LV, the prediction that wormtail would return to LV and the prediction that there would be disaster in the Lighting-struck tower. On all but one account( the prophecey) no one belived her they thought she was mad or being a fraud! But could her perdiction about Harry become true? She has been right about all of the predictions so far but will her prediction about Harry come true?? Could she be wrong about the prophecey? There is always the possiblity that Harry is not the chosen one but indeed anyone could kill LV??? and this is just preventing the chances of the defeating LV!!!

I really don't think so. A lot of the fake predictions she's made came true, but I think that was more by chance. Besides, remember in book five she said Harry was going to live a long healthy life and be minister for magic? No, I think the only predictions she's made that will/have come true are her real predictions (her job interview and the pettigrew one).

I'm not sure what to think about that one. Anything's possible. However, I think there's more to Sybill than meets the eye. Sometimes she's clearly making up things, but sometimes she's right (The Lighting-struck Tower, "The first to rise will be the first to die").

But, let see how her predictions work for Harry. It's either:

a)You live, have 12 kids and you become a Minister For Magic = I don't see that happening

b)You die = far more realistic

So, say she didn't make up one of these predictions. Which one didn't she make up? I think it's .

well of course harry is going to die, thats why she keeps making the prediction. Everyones going to die at some point, so if she says hes going to die, she cant be wrong!

But will harry die in the series? probably not.

I agree with El cheeser puff. Everyone is going to die sometime, unless you are made immortal somehow so her prediction is going to come true, unless harry makes himself immortal, which i dont think he would want to be, because he would want to move on and die so he could see sirius, his mom and dad and maybe dumbledore again?

NO..no..no.no you have miss interpited what i meant. I meant will he be killed by LV? She said he will die a very slow and painful death! But i was very silly of her to say seeing as she made the prophecey about Harry and LV how only one can live. So basically she is saying LV will win the war!!!

no, i dont think that LV will win the war. even thought it is way too common, i think that the good guy (harry) will win. As suprising as jk is, i dont think that she'll have LV win after all that harry's been through

I believe that Professor Trelawney has made very few real predictions that have actually come true. Divination is in her blood line, although I don't think that she is particularly gifted in the area. Her repeated "you will die" comments to Harry, have become jokes to him and his classmates. Trelawney is not taken very seriously, except maybe by a couple of the girls. We all know that Hermione cannot abide her.

Personally, I don't think that her predictions of Harry dying will be coming true anytime soon. As someone has already said, we all die sooner or later. I see Harry living a long time.

I am a firm believer that Trewlanys predictions are almost always true. If you look at the predictions she makes throughout the books you will notice that 99.9% of the time the "ridiculous" predictions she make actually DO come true. Whether or not it is because a true seer or because she is really really really lucky, i dont know.

On the other hand I think that her predictions about whether or not someone will live or die are merely for show and not serious. As McGonagall pointed out she has predicted the death of atleast one student each year since shes been there. So the death predictions she makes, to me atleast, aren't to be held with the same weight as the other predictions.

You don't have to worry. JKR said that he won't die at the end of her books so where's the problem?

Ok, I posted on another thread talking baout Trelawney's predictions and Dumbledore's ignoring them. I do not want this thread to get off-topic, I just want to bring up a point. You can really replace Dumbledore's name with Harry's for the most part and it will still make sense, but I just want to make up the point that it is not just Harry who does not listen to Trelawney's predictions:

------------------------------

QUOTE (k6-2 @ Oct 29 2005, 11:56 PM)
I've got a question.
Why didn't DD listen to Trelawney's idea after having heard so many real Prophecys made by her?(the first one that related Harry and Voldemort together;the second one about Wormtail's escape and Voldemort's back;the third one about the lightning struck tower)
Is it because that DD himself hasn't studied Divination and thus ignore its importance?Or he always think that love is the most important thing,not the Prophecy?


Yes, this aspect of Dumbledore is quite possibly the only aspect of him that annoys me.....

Why doesn't he listen to Trelawney?!?! haha

He knows she made what is most likely the most important Prophecy in Wizarding history, yet he doesn't seem to listen to anthing else she says...
He techincally could have saved A LOT of deaths from Wromtail's escape, and HIS OWN DEATH (although I do not believe Dumbledore is actually dead) by listening to her other prophecies and predictions.

And not only does he not care about the predictions, he seems to show her little respect. If any other techer -- or even a student for that matter -- came rushing into DD's office with something VERY important that could be life-threatening, DD would be listening in a heartbeat, but he semed to just blow her off in HBP when she came in with the cards..........
You can argue that he was in a rush to go to the Horcrux with Harry, but he had all night and did not seem the least bit rushed when Harry went to DD's office......?

What do you guys think??

_daviD

When DD went to interview Treelawney, he was considering discontinueing the subject at Hogwarts, as he told Harry in OotP.
As for her predictions, she has only had 2 that were true.
Remember when she made a prediction in front of DD and later Harry, she "lost" herself. It was like someitng else came inside of her and made the prediction through her. Treelawney does not remember making the prophecies in the first place.
I don't think DD has any respect for her. She has a tendency to be a bit dramatic and since Umbridge was at Hogwarts, she is now (sorry to label) a drunk.
Her true/real predictions have been by far outnumbered by her false predictions.

He knows she made what is most likely the most important Prophecy in Wizarding history
THat is why she was offered the job at Hogwarts, for her own protection.

is all about how you look at it.
Trewlaney has made a lot of predictions some of them being wrong
or some of them just not making sense. But you got to consider the predictions she has made to Harry have been more right then wrong.
The prediction made about Wormtail going back to Voldemort.
The one about the lighting-struck tower suprised me a lot, because she did not go rigid but she was extremely correct, and now looking at the prophecy everything in it has happened, except the end which will be who is gonna die.
In my opinion though Harry will kill Voldemort, making the prediction false. Its all about chance, and we dont know what could happen.

Ah-Ha...thats not what JK Rowling said...

she said that Harry will survive THROUGH books 6 and 7...there is no saying that he will no die directly after Book 7 ends...the ending of Book 7 can be him getting hit with an Unforgivable Curse by Voldemort...like a cliffhanger or something...

OR...he may be driven insane like Alice and Frank Longbottom...that, in my opinion, is worse than death!

as for where to find that, Solorund, I am not positive of the specific interview, but she definitely said that somewhere! I've read it myself!


_daviD

I forgot where she said that...But anyway, I remember (but i'm not sure of this one) that she also said that she'll write about harry's ron's and hermione's life a few years after harry will face Voldy.

As for this one,
felix_felicis_444

I seem to recall that Trelawney while crazy and thought to be fake said some thing at christmas in PoA " I think" about thirteen sitting at the table the first to rise would be the first to die. If you read back to grimualde place on harry's first night there when he went to the kitchen after the meeting there were thirteen members of the order at the table and who rose first. Our beloved sirius black and he was the first to die of that thirteen indicating that that in most cases can be true.Also in Trelawneys defense the death does not have to happen in a certain time. In PoA where that prediction was first made it was either harry or ron who rose from the table first. If it was harry he will die which for the books sake so that it dosen't keep going will happen no matter what, unless a new and greater enemy appears which i doubt. If ron then he will die and everyone will grieve but keep fighting and being the weaker of the trio "sorry ron i love you but lets face facts" .- brit

what an amazing theory tincho....im almost certain [you] are right in 13 people were dining when sirius got up first and sadly our poor sirius was killed. i believe you are right in thinkin that harry will be killed and possibly even ron(lets face it he is the weakest of the trio even though [tho] i love him to death)

[Mod Edit] Had to edit some minor netspeak. "U" should've been "You" and "Tho" should've been "Though". Please be careful not to use netspeak in your future posts.

thank you wiz_kid i am glad that you approve of my theoryand to all of you who had posted comments you did a great job and to the one who thoght of this cuddos.

I definitely think Trewlawney is generally correct actually. The problem is that DD never studied the topic, McGonnagal and Hermione have distaste for it, and Harry and Ron see it as a joke. She's kind of a red herring. I think Rowling uses her for foreshadowing. And if you look at it, if she wasn't immediately proved wrong, then it always ended up happening...Can you guys tell me who were the thirteen people sitting at the table with Sirius, because I definitely don't remember that many people?

ok so i've gone and made 2 lists now in the meeting there where more than 13 members present. Harry's escort was made up of the following people at least these were the people introduced to harry at the house

1 shacklebolt
2 vance
3 podmore
4 elphias doge
5 dedalus diggle
6 hestia jones
7 lupin
8 tonks
9 moody
when they get to the house it said the others came in side to but the only people that had dialogue was lupin tonks and moody. there the only names but it does say the others come in to so were up to 9
we also know that the following people were there
10 arthur
11 bill
12 molly
13 mundungus
14 snape
15 sirius
now they all are up and moving by the time the kids come down stairs and it does not say who got up

but at the dinner table to eat there were 13 people there and they were
arthur
bill
mundungus
lupin
tonks
molly
george
fred
harry
ginny
hermione
ron
sirius
Now it says

so does this honestly mean he was the first to rise? he didnt actually get out of his chair he just made the movement like he was getting up. This is where molly sends Ginny off to bed. Ginny was the one who actually got up and left. does that make a difference?

Now so far Trelawney has been right in the big stuff I'll give her that. but in all honestly i think her predictions with the Neville and the teacup or something horrible happening or someone would be leaving us happened because of the power of notion. What i mean is would neville broken the glass if trelawney hadnt already told him he would. everybody knows that neville is a clutz. I just think that the art of suggestion is a powerful thing. I teach pre'schoolers and you tell them dont touch that the first thing they do is touch it. I often use that to my advantage.
another thing in Trelawneys defense. Each year when she says he's (harry)gonna die blah blah blah we know the story, if he was any other kid he would probally would have died but because he's harry potter who has tons of protection(tons maybee exaggerating but..) he came out ok. In goblet of fire if it wasnt for the connection of the wands and he was a normal kid he would have died, Cedric did, and in Phoenix if he didnt have that connection with Volde he probally would have died there, and in HBP DD disquised him snape did protect him even though he did dash out some curses of his own. if he was any other student would he have been spared?
Sorry this is getting long, its just im really on the fence with this one. she has been right a lot so who's to say? oh and by the way im quite proud of myself i have finally figured out how to do my quotes!! yeah!!

Even though she had a weird personality I do think she ws right the whole time... I mean think of it, she has good points.

Dumbledore said that she has made two accurate predictions, both with that really creapy voice, and since the other stuf was just day to day, I guess it is correct. I mean, she's stil creapy with her strange obsessions that I don't understand, or maybe thats mean, but she has been right in the past, who's to say she isn't right now and then? There's really not that much else for me to say, and since most of the examples have already been given, why should I bother to give any more. I don't feel like giving all these really long posts any more. They take way too much time, and I don't want to so there. But I'll keep on writing even though there really isn't all that much left to say. I don't believe that she's a fraud, just someone who's clearly misunderstood, and can only make really good predictions without knowing it, which is kinda cool, but sad if you can never remember giving them, cause... Well, there was a reason for that, I think...


~La MaitressedeMort

Yeah Trelawney does have a gift of foresight but as Dumbledore says to harry that he had come to think that she didnt have the gift of foresight as her great grandmother until he turned to leave and then Trelawney made the prophecy about The Chosen One and Dark Lord. and not just that, she made a prophecy to Harry also about the servant of the dark lord being reunited to the Dark Lord. So she is not a fraud for sure. about her wierd predictions....she expects too much of herself.

well i think jk uses her to tell us somethings, i think her random mumbling is meant to lead us to conclusions, i think that her strange predictions might just pan out in the end

I don't think Trelawney is a fake, and I think we should pay attention to what she says. Yes, we are supposed to think she is a fraud, but this could just be a case of the narrative being clouded by JK's feelings about psychics, or it could be to "put us off the scent".

The only time Trelawney goes into her trances is when her predictions concern Voldemort. Remember when she made the wormtail prediction, and Harry told her about it afterwards? She got angry and said that she would never presume to make predictions about the Dark Lord (Also note that she referred to him as the DARK LORD). Maybe she is not quite as self-confident as she pretends to be, and goes into a trance because she simply can't deal with the fact that she is making such a huge prediction, but that doesn't mean that we should discount the other predicitons that she makes

I feel that Trelawney does have a fair bit of ability with divination, but is hampered by trying to live up to her great great grandmothers name. I think she tries too hard to make 'important' predictions (when we all know she's made 2), and so she goes for the dramatic all the time, wanting to predict something crucial everyday. Which is a big mistake because crucial important things don't happen everyday. If she didn't put on such a show i think she would be more believeable to everyone.

One thing is strange though, why is she always negitive, why all the 'you are in grave danger' predictions?