You are right in saying that this is indeed a possibility. The prophecy is extremely cryptic and vague and it can be interpreted in many different ways. The ways in which we have interpreted it are correct in their own manner. I believe that it would be Harry to finish Tom off and by that I mean physically eliminate him. Of course he may lose his life in the process as well

Albus, my question was whether Wormtail might have been the recipient of the wayward horcrux spell, an accidental horcrux as some posit Harry to be. My arguments are numbered above, with invitation to disspelling, so I won't repeat them here. It's not an assertion of probability, just a possibility.

Granted Harry is the more interesting candidate, as fish and others say here. But that does not rule out Pettigrew.

I think that we can pretty much rule out anything that DD would personally be aware of that he hasn't already listed as a Horcrux. So Harry's scar, the basilisk, Wormtail's hand, etc. are all things that Dumbledore could have considered on his own, and it's his judgement that we should defer to. JKR likes to foreshadow future events, but she doesn't really plant clues or suspects in advanced. Her clues tend to be seemingly insignificant at first glance, so that anything that can be guessed upon a first reading can be pretty much ruled out.

With that in mind, I think that the most likely theory is the one involving Luna's mom, just because it fits so well. It's something that's been briefly mentioned, but never discussed in-depth, leaving it completely open for future chapters to develop further. She has a tie to ravenclaw (though I don't think the object would be an heirloom), and her family possesses both the intellectual curiousity to seek out rare objects and some limitted means to obtain them.

I have one major speculation regarding this and that is why Pettigrew would have been at Godric's Hollow when Voldemort murdered the Potters? He wasn't a particularly talented wizard and was a coward so wouldn't have been any good in a battle, he was James' best friend so probably wouldn't have wanted to see them murdered and Voldemort's main method of reward for services rendered seems to be allowing that person to live and/or replacing whatever limb they've lost as a result of the service(s).



It doesn't mean that if Voldemort kills Harry then he can never be killed, the prophecy will then be fulfilled as the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord has come and one has died at the hand of the other and so forth so the prophecy will be fulfilled which means that theoretically Voldemort can be killed by just about anyone powerful/strong/brave enough to do so. Dumbledore avoided killing Tom because when he was most vulnerable he was posessing Harry and so to kill him he would have had to kill Harry as well and most simply of all because it's Dumbledore, he doesn't kill people, no matter who they are or what they've done, he's just not the kind to use an Unforgiveable Curse on anyone, even Voldemort. If you remember his "Famous Witches and Wizards" card it says he defeated Grindlewald, not that he killed him so we don't actually know whether he's ever killed someone and personally I just don't think he's that kind of man, but that's just me, feel free to tell me I'm wrong.



He wasn't necessarily carrying whatever object he wanted to turn into a horcrux, we don't know whether or not the creation of a horcrux has to take place at either the same time as the murder/immediately afterwards or if this can be left until an appropriate vessel canbe obtained, but surely the ripping of a soul by such an unnatural act of murder could not be repaired over time, they would have to live with the knowledge of what they had done for their entire life and while their conscience may not have any scars and they may not feel any remorse for what they had done, surely their soul, the deepest part of themself would bear this scar for the rest of their existance?



Seeing as though I believe that every murder splits the soul but that further, darker magic is required to actually remove this part of the soul from the whole and infuse it into an item in whatever way this is done I'm not convinced that prior magic would have been needed other than the murder itself, the commencement of the splittingof his soul would have been any murder he commit, which could include those of Lily and James Potter and the binding could/would occur after the murder of Harry since that was why he was there in the first place, to kill Harry. If a horcrux is not created from a murder I think that the soul remains scarred but not ripped in half or anything like that, sort of like when you have a bad cut or an operation and are left with a scar, but one of the soul, or perhaps if you've ever cut yourself at an angle with a kitchen knife or a piece of glass then you end up with a sort of flap of skin where the cut is, perhaps the soul is something like that after a murder.



A fair few people believed Voldemort to be in some sort of existence and at least one or two of these (Mr and Mrs Weasley and perhaps even Charlie and/or Bill) were at the Burrow, the same place Scabbers was living in during the twelve years prior to his escape so would no doubt have picked up on this, and a fair few more were at Hogwarts over the years Pettigrew was there with Percy and Ron respectively and from what I remember he wasn't adverse to wandering off at times and would have been free to roam at night, when the most important conversations of staff tend to take place and so would have had plenty of oppurtunities to pick up on information about Voldemort's whereabouts, Dumbledore himself suspected Voldemort to be somewhere in Albania, Pettigrew would also have known about Voldemort sharing Quirrell's body in Harry and Ron's first year so would have known that he existed in some form or other, he would also have heard about the diary and may have put 1 and 1 together and figured out that Voldemort had created one or more horcruxes during his time. Pettigrew perhaps went along with James, Remus and Sirius because they could offer him protection, they were highly talented wizards and were popular too so he was unlikely to get picked on if he was friends with them and they weren't the kind of people to suspect anything different, they seemed fairly happy to see the best in people unless the worst in them came along and slapped them in the face as it did with Pettigrew eventually, he maybe had the potential to become a true Gryffindor when he was first sorted but through bad choices and such like he lost this potential and became the person we know him as now.



We have to remember that Pettigrew also helped Voldemort regain his body by giving up his hand so in a way Voldemort was indebted to Pettigrew, but we already know that Voldemort is not happy to be in debt to anyone, even if it's someone like Pettigrew so by giving him a replacement hand and by making him feel he has been useful in some way he would repay this debt, at least as far as Pettigrew would be concerned anyway.



Voldemort only seems to kill those who stand in his way or go against him in some way, Pettigrew did neither of these and so as far as Voldemort was concerned he probably wouldn't have cared to bother killing him, it was a pointless exercise and he was believed to be dead anyway so what did it matter, Pettigrew was too scared to go against Voldemort and the Order wouldn't havehad him, for a start Sirius would have killed him when he was alive and Remus may well have done the same too or some other member of the Order who saw fit, besides what use would he be to them. So Voldemort probably found some "job" for him that kept him on side but stillkept him out the way of the real goings on. Perhaps Voldemort was even a little suspect of Snape after all these years and placed Pettigrew there to spy on him and see who he was truly loyal to, Snape didn't rate Pettigrew highly enough to likely suspect him of this.

There's also the "nah" gut feeling too of course



You're absolutley right insofar as Lucius didn't go looking for Voldemort but Lucius comes across as the kind of character who seeks power rather than loyalty, when Voldemort was at the peak of his powers he was a "loyal" deatheater but still kept his high-up position in the Ministry, perhaps to keep up appearances and the life he was used to and seemedto enjoy or maybe, just maybe it was "just in case". As soon as Voldemort fell he denied ever being a death eater and continued in the Ministry as if nothing had happened and nothing did happen. I know he planted the diary in Hogwarts but I don't think he quite knew what it was, just that it had once belonged to Tom Riddle and would cause trouble if it was found in Hogwarts and would really cause trouble for the Weasley's if it was found in Ginny's possession, how would it look, school possessions of Voldermort in her possession, perhaps being used to rid the school of muggle-borns, it may make the Weasleys look like a bunch of Death Eaters and the evidence would certainly point that way.



Hagrid was under orders from Dumbledore to go and collect Harry from the house when he heard of the attack and the deaths of Lily and James. Now Dumbledore being very shrewd in his own way and being a very clever man, not to mention knowing Voldemort possibly better than anyone else, or at least the strategical workings of his mind and so is it not possible that Dumbledore had told Hagrid to take a number of detours to lead any pursuers on a wild goose chase before going to Surrey. Having done some quick research into synonyms for "hollow" as a noun, and the slightly more interesting ones included "channel", "valley" and "cavern". Having compared this to my map of the Britsh Isles (after getting distracted by the fact that my town isn't on there ) and allowing for Hagrid going over Bristol either as a distraction or otherwise (i.e allowing that he wouldnt really go from say London to Bristol to go back to Surrey) and have whitled it down to somewhere along the Bristol Channel which would leave the South-Coast of Wales (Cardiff, Swansea, Newport area) and the North Devon Coast (Barnstaple, Exmoor and Bristol itself) since that sort of area follows quite nicely with going over Bristol along the way. Using Bristol as a detour however, I came up with the Isles of Scilly as this would also tie in with the rejected first chapter of the Philospher's Stone regarding Hermione's parents, etc. A third possiblilty I quite like was Lundy which is a little island of the South-West Coast of England, near Barnstaple and not very far away from the Bristol Channel, I particularly like this idea since it throws in the synonyms for "hollow" as well as the rejected chapter and the island is virtually uninhabited and the seas around it can be susceptible to storms so the Potters would theoretically at least (assuming that their secret keeper didn't give them away ) be pretty safe there. I did think of a fourth option in the Isle of Wight (lying in the English Channel) but didn't like this as its near to 3 major ports on the mainland and has a fairly major port on the island itself, it seems that there are too many people there, they would be too easily noticed by both muggles and magical folk, not to mention thatin order to fly over Bristol Hagrid would be virtually flying in a circle to end up back in Surrey, he'd be flying in completely the wrong direction but Lundy, my current favourite even though it started as an after thought would be in virtually a staright line through Bristol to Surrey, allowing for similar direction changes as were seen when Harry and the Advanced Guard flew to London (ignoring Moody's doubling back ).



Hagrid was not from Wales, JKR has said that he is from the West Country, which is sort of Cornwall-way (South-West England) so it wouldn't be unacceptable that he was living not a million miles away from the Potters on the night they were killed, I'm not sure where the Burrow is but it seems to be in the country somewhere so maybe, unless it was up in the North perhaps.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by "abroad" since Wales is attached to England so it's not really like them being abroad as such, just down the road really, it's pretty much the same as going from state to state in the US, they're not really in a different place from you just a little farther away than they are usually.



I think, Albus, that they are arguing that perhaps Wormtail was present at the Potter's death and became the accidental horcrux instead of your excellent arguments that Harry is an accidental horcrux as this may tie in the Wizard's Debt owed to Harry by Pettigrew as this could be repaid by sacrificing himself and thus destroying the horcrux within himself to aid Harry in Voldemort's final downfall and so would prove himself to be a true brave and loyal Gryffindor rather than the lying, cheating, cowardly Slytherin-type character he has been portrayed as thus far in the books from what we've seen of him.

Right then, as I started this post at about 9pm and its now 2am I think I'm going to sign it off for now and return when I've had some sleep and see what people make of my ridiculously long post (I knew I should haveposted at college this afternoon... )

I heard a suggestion earlier and it really hit home.. well a few suggestions.

Firstly... someone mentioned earlier that the diary, which was a horocrux only knew what it was imbued with. When that part of Voldemort's soul was put into the object.. it only knew what had happened previously.. it was separated from Voldemort and his body. Therefor, all Horocruxes, as I will assume are retroactive.

What does this mean? Well for one.. when Voldemort attacked Harry the first time he didnt use a Horocrux to come back. let's think about this. Harry didn't cast the killing curse... his mother's love reflected it. Or we THINK it reflected it. The purpose of her love wasn't to kill.. it was to protect. Therefor, it wasn't really the killing curse. Voldemort had knowledge up to that night... and he possessed different things of his own violation. After he escaped from his body... he possessed snakes... a horocrux would attempt to recreate him asthe dairy did or store him away.. it would not have the ability to do what he did.

As to two Horocruxes.. I believe that one is the trophy to the school. Firstly.. Tom Riddle.. then Lord Voldemort knew that Dumbledore didn't trust him. He also knew that as "Lord Voldemort" there was no way in hell that he'd be hired. What safer place to put a Horocrux than into the school? I think that he either snatched his trophy or made it into a horocrux while he had the excuse to visit Hogwarts. It would be well protected there. Furthermore, its not like a Horocrux has never gotten into Hogwarts... also, he is the heir of Slytherin.. which is why he has some control over the school.

The other object I believe will be found somewhere in Godric's Hollow. I firmly believe that harry is the heir of Gryffindor. Good vs. Evil... Slytherin vs. Gryffindor have been themes throughout the book. it's the final battle to end the blood fued... only a true Gryffindor could pull the sword out of the hat... and the Gryffindors.. a Pureblood prominent family have been in the Lion's House for eons. Maybe part of why he chose Harry over Neville was knowing that the descendent of Gryffindor would be a bigger threat to the air of Slytherin. Also.. see the name: Godrics Hollow. (Godric Gryffindor) Now assuming that Godric's Hollow, where Harry and his friends HAPPEN to be returning.. is the home of the Gryffindor's Descendents... what are the chances that SOME object of Gryffindor still be there? Who would expect him to hide a Horocrux there.. and how much significance there would be!!! Who knows.. maybe even Godric's sword came from there.. but I honestly doubt its the sword.

Wow, Rachel, I feel like I've just read a term paper! Nice post.

I think it is widely suspected that Pettigrew is a major candidate for the "extra" who was there at Godric's Hollow that night as JKR has hinted there was. He might have gone padding after LV out of curiosity, or might have been with him as lookout, etc. Or he might have been there as advance guard. His haplessness as a wizard is over-stated, even--or perhaps especially--by LV. He was good enough to do all you suggested in terms of intelligence gathering as rat, to be in the Order, to be allowed anywhere near LV who at the time did not know he could use a former "marauder" as informant.

It's true that LV doesnt just AK everyone he sees, but at the same time he told Pettigrew to "kill the extra" (which Pettigrew did effortlessly), and he kills Frank Bryce just for showing up. Pettigrew, being a turncoat once, should have been someone LV bagged as soon as he had a body again, unless he (LV) just wanted to be able to bask in the glow of his own twisted sense of "mercy".

It's quite possible that the rat is assigned to spy on Snape.

The other thing I was wondering was if the potion in the bowl in the cave was filled with someone's horrible memories--Pettigrew would fit the bill for the words that come out of DD's mouth, but that would imply he felt regret at James and Lily's death, which he didnt, since he still staged the framing of Sirius and killed people. So I hold out for the possibility they were Snape's memories, but that's another thread.

I'm not at all convinced of my hypothesis about Pettigrew, I just would like to see if it really can be ruled out. I guess not, which I guess is as it should be (keep us guessing). I'm more inclined to see Harry as one, if one is human. Otherwise my gut wants all objects.

On Pettegrew being there, the one main thing is that Peter was the secret keeper. It is true that he could have simply given Voldemort a note (like in OotP), but Voldemort did not want this plan to fail and perhaps would have had Peter physically go with him to the potters' house. Remember that Voldemort called Peter "Wormtail," and perhaps he picked this name up from James. If Peter went to the potters' house (perhaps under the invisibility cloak?) and was forced by Voldemort to follow him when Voldemort confronted James, he might have called Peter "wormtail" when he saw him. Thus, Voldemort's use of the name "wormtail" might have been (and probably was in any case) a slap in his face for being a traitor. That being said, although it is possible from a plot perspective, from an overall "authorial" perspective it is unlikely. Jo would want, if she was going to incorperate an extra horucrux somewhere embedded in a person, to use it to bring the most impact. If Wormtail is, indeed, the horcrux, Jo has a long way to go to explain it and make it believable, and an even longer path to give it impact. Wormtail's blood-debt would, of course, need to be repayed as part of it to give it any impact. As well, we'd need to see some redemption either before or after (preferably before) wormtail sacrifices himself.

Question: would wormtail cutting off his hand be enough to destroy the horcrux, or would he need to die?

-Fish

That seems to be a good choice that fits in with JKRs first draft. However, she has clarified that Godrics Hollow is a village. In that sense I would assume it to be somewhat inhabited area unlike the island you mentioned. I am not sure how many abandoned villages are there in Britain, but unlike an island, a single family would be much better of hiding in a populated area than in an abandoned village. Perhaps JKR had Lundy in mind when she wrote the first draft and subsequently changed it to a village presumably on the mainland.



That's true, but Hagrid has been living in Hogwarts that is Scotland since he was 13 and I am not sure that he would have gone back to his native place after that, considering that he was expelled and he loves the creatures in the forest. I believe Dumbledore got the news while in Hogwarts and he immediately dispatched Hagrid to bring Harry to Surrey. It's not that distances matter too much to wizards, after all Dumbledore and Harry apparated from Scotland to almost the south-eastern (south-western?) tip of England (I am not sure whether they apparated near Brighton or near Dover). Burrow is believed to be somewhere in Devonshire, that would make it south-west wouldn't it, pretty close to Wales. If Grangers were nearby, then it would not take that long for Owls to deliver letters between them and Weasleys. Remember, Hermione's reply to Ron reached much after Harry arrived there. Of course it must have something to do with Errol.



That's interesting because Tom may have forced Peter to accompany him to the Potters. Sirius did not find Peter at his home when he went to check on him, so he may have gone with Tom to Godrics Hollow. But then, if Peter was there why did he wait for twelve years to find Tom again. If he knew that Tom was still alive, he would have set off after him. But this maybe Peter would go only with the stronger force and Tom was weak at that time.

Mayfair, I thought I posted it here but I guess its in another thread, that Pettigrew might not have known how to interpret the post-AK events at the Potters. No one would know whether LV were "alive" or "dead" after such an event, I dont think. So he might have been biding his time trying to figure out what the deal was.

Fish, that's an interesting idea, about Wormtail's hand--could that have been the reason the spell worked to restore LV's body? On this hypothesis, the life-debt and redemption might be efficiently played out in the story by Wormtail revealing to Harry that indeed his hand had become the horcrux, so that Harry would know that that one at least was gone. (I may be totally missing something here, but I've never understood how LV could have been restored to a body without using a horcrux--if horcruxes anchor the soul to the world, a common role for bodies, what WOULD any remaining seventh part of soul in the original body need to do once that body was destroyed? Seems to me it would need to use a horcrux to reanchor itself. But maybe I'm wrong...Since DD didnt seem to think this, it probably is).

Going back to the theory on Harry being a horcrux (or his scar), couldn't Harry just kill Lord Voldemort's actual human form, and then kill himself? Or am I totally missing something because when Lilys spell reflected, it seemed to have killed Voldemort, and then back to the theory of when Wormtail cut off his hand, I believe that any part of the animate body would be considered part of the horcrux, but I also believe that Voldemort thinks that the spell worked, and so does Harry, so he won't think to stop after six. Also, I think Dumbledore may have missed something. Maybe Lord Voldemort placed his soul into Harry when he tryed to kill him, but it may not have been on purpose, so maybe there are eight horcruxes, and Harry will not think. (Sorry for the off topic).

Sorry to have not read all of it but here are the horcruxes i suspect:
1.Locket
2.Nagini
3.Voldy
4.Goblet
5.Diary
6.Opal Necklace
7.The Weeping Willow.

The Weeping Willow, well because it tried to kill Harry and ect... but didn't kill the rat in the second book. And why the heck does it move around and whack people!? I mean really. Can the moving and whacking me side effects from Voldemort's soul like the diary and wrighting.

The Whomping Willow was placed at the school to prevent students inadvertantly stumbling upon Remus when he had transformed into a werewolf at the full moon and to stop him wandering onto the grounds and seeking out students/staff during his transformation so the dangerousness of the tree is a method of protection for the people it's attacking. It didn't attack the rat or the cat because they weren't people so wouldn't be affected by the werewolf, etc and if it attacked every animal that went near it then there would probably be a lot of dead/injured animals around hogwarts.



There are some people living on Lundy, just not as many as there are on other islands off the mainland and I would assume that these people live in a village, since I know that it's a very community-based island so I would think that it probably would be a village or similar. There aren't many abandoned villages over here that I know of but there are plenty of villages in general, and following your argument that they would be better hidden amongst other people then they would likely not be in an abandoned village but rather an inhabited one.



Thanks, that's what happens when I don't check the posts for a week and it ends up full of excellent posts to argue with or add to

ok, sorry, dont have time to read posts, so if i just restate everything that has been said, just ignore my jabberings...
i think the horcruxes are/were:

1. Diary
2. Ring
3. Locket
4. Cup (Hufflepuff)
5. The Wand (I'll explain)
6. maybe Nagini, maybe not...unsure


ok, 1 and 2 kinda obvious, so is 3 and 4 (if the locket wasnt already destroyed by RAB or others...)

5. The Wand. i believe that it said in Sorceror's Stone (?) that there was a wand in the window of Ollivander's wand...what if that is the "somthing of Ravenclaw's"??? Ravenclaw was known for intelligence and cleverness: wouldn't a wand (perhaps her wand) fit? and Ollivander did mysteriously disappear...but who knows?

This may seem like an incredibly obvious thing to say but Ollivander's was/is a wand shop so what else would he have in his window other than a wand, I doubt it would have been Ravenclaw's though, a wand is unlikely to survive that long without its owner alive to keep and eye on it and look after it. As for him disappearing, he was a prominent wizard and didn't actively support Voldemort as far as we knew though we never saw his left arm so perhaps he used to in a similar way as Lucius did but abandoned him later on and repented or maybe he was under the Imperius curse and had to be dealt with. They're both out there and I don't really believe them myself but it's something...

What worries me about the wand possibility (such that it is entertainable) is this:

Ollivander disappears without explanation. If DD had him, it seems the idea would have been to make him appear dead, like he offered Draco's family. If LV got him, seems we'd know he was dead unless Ollivander or something in that shop was needed by LV. It's possible, of course, that the DE's just want all the wands and wand-materials possible for the war, but the scenario is at the very least peculiar.

I don't see LV using a tree as a horcrux because trees die. In fact since the whole idea of horcrux making is to live for as long as possible, it seems to me unlikely that LV would create any at all out of living beings, Nagini or the Basilisc being obvious exceptions, Nagini because DD said so. . the Basilisckbecause of it's age and significance. . but random living creatures, like Harry, or his scar, or a whomping willow. . it just seems very non-Voldy thinking.

Wands are a whole different thing. . we hear about so few of them surviving, and I have always found that strange, the destiny of Dumbledore's wand for example, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the phoenix flew off with it. By the same token i wouldn't be surprised to hear that Dumbledore had been using Ravenclaw's or Griffindor's wand for most of his life. . perhaps after losing his first, and visiting Ollivander again. . information that would be most interesting to the Death Eaters. . and deffinately worth kidnapping Olivander for. .

Except that then we would have Death Eater's seeking DD's wand.

Still, the disappearence of Olivander is one of the most interesting side issues to be mysteriously ignored for sure.

has anybody thought to mention the shrieking shak? it definitly seems to be a good hiding place at the very least, & it allso seems to fit most of the criteria for the HCXs.
brought up in 3rd book, unidentified HCX.
1 HCX brought to attention in each book thus far.
definitly conected to Hogwarts, posibly a former home of one of the founders? or is some thing hiden there?
seems to be a draw for ghosts, or so said. it obviously has some kind of power.
i know it far fetched but we are grasping at straws here.

Wow, I really like the arch idea, but I think that is simply Rowling blurring the line between life and death, which she does continually as death is one of the major themes. But all the evidence points to Harry being a horcrux, and as the idea that for evil to be vanquished then some good must also be destroyed (Harry) is a beautifully well crafted idea. As Voldemort was looking to make a horcrux from Harry it would all have been set up, so it would be perfectly plausible for Harry to have the soul piece transferred into him, as we already know that part of Voldemort is in him, otherwise how would he be a parselmouth? And why did the sorting hat want to put him in Slytherin? I just think it would be a perfect end for the books, and it would sum it all up rather nicely.

Having said that I really pray that doesn't happen.

I agree about the arch being a method of blurring the line and of showing that it is so easy to pass from one to the other that death can not really be the end but just a new beginning. As for Harrybeing a horcrux I'm not convinced either way, there are certainly plenty of excellent arguments in favour of him being a horcrux but I'm still not convinced for some reason, it's just one of those feelings I can't shake. And I don't believe for a second that Voldemort was planning to use Harry as a vessel for his final horcrux; the murder used to create it, yes but not the vessel itself, there's no reason for it, he wasn't a descendant of a foundernor was he all that important, just another dead body now; yes he may have grown up to be the one to defeat Voldemort but if he had been killed as planned then he would be just another dead body, no need to treat it as a trophy. As a literal idea, it works beautifully; no matter how you look at it and no matter how tragic it seems it's a beautiful image nonetheless. I'm not sure about why their was the transfer of powers apart from the thought that he is a horcrux but as for the Sorting Hat thatmuch is simple, if we look at how Harry has obtained much of the information he's used to help him and how he's managed to get around when he shouldn't and to places he shouldn't be in his methods are very sly and cunning, exactly whatSlytherin looked for in his students but Harry chose to use this attributes for the good of others instead of himself and that is what makes him a true Gryffindor.

1. Voldemort's Soul in his body
2. Tom's Diary
3. Slytherin's Ring
4. Slytherin's Locket
5. Hufflepuff's Cup
6. Nagini
7. Something at Luna's House

-7 explaination:
In OOTP Luna says something about her mother dying during an experiment. I believe that she was experimenting on The Ravenclaw object horcrux. Two things lead me to this conclusion: JKR wouldn't have had Luna make the comment if it wouldn't have some impotance almost nothing that any of the characters say is just matter of factish... and two, the experiment killed her and that lead me to think that it has a similar curse on it that the Ring had. (Dumbledore said if it wasn't for him being such a powerful wizard and Snape's immediate help the ring would have killed him)

Wow, that's a really interesting idea. . I think Luna has been developed into a signifficant enough character for us to accept something that big in her background, she's stuck by the DA so well.

But we haven't heard anything about exactly what the object was have we?

And I'm still mulling over the earlier "Olivander's disappearance" significance.

I'm still wondering about that too, I guess it all hinges on what side made him disappear. The Order and it's probably for his safety and suchlike, if it was Voldemort and the Death Eaters then he has something they want. I doubt that he is dead otherwise he probably have been found by now and the Dark Mark would have been seen as well since it was likely to have been the Death Eaters, it wouldn't have been the Order and the Death Eaters always leave the Dark Mark.



Interesting idea, I quite like the thought of it but I'm still skeptical,but then again I almost always am....Maybe if she's giving an interview sometime soon somebody will ask her about the inticaces of this experiment and then however she answers we'll have more of an insight into the goings on at that particular time and situation.

Oh, I like that Luna idea.....she could have any of the "unfound" but identified items. Especially since her character has been portrayed as having all kinds of stuff around her all the time--her bag is full of weird stuff, she talks about strange uses of strange items for strange reasons. She knows death, has been built up as a character, as just noted, etc. Since the locket is at 12 Grimauld, that makes the cup or something of Gryffendor's her target horcrux. Ah--speaking of that....given that Luna's family seems to be in the business of claiming to be real and present those things that others wish to believe are not real and present or simply fail to see as real and present--that would fit with both the general idea of horcruxes but more importantly with the letter of DD's remark that Gryffendor's "only known" relic is well protected. [BTW--can anyone explain to me why the sword is said to be his only relic when the sorting hat seems to have been his? I must be missing something basic.....].

As to Ollivander--as I said above, I think if the Order had him, his death would have been widely reported (since DD indicates that that is how they hide people, unless they have other ways...since, I guess, the Order would have to concoct quite a story as to WHY he is dead, as they had no reason themselves to kill him like they would Draco and Narcissa). If the DE killed him, I agree we'd know. So the complete and unexplained disappearance is puzzling indeed. I can imagine LV wanting, after seeing what happened in GoF with Prior Incantatum, to know exactly what to anticipate when DE wands would meet Order wands, and so getting Ollivander and all his information to catalogue all the wands in question would certainly be strategic battle information.

this may be an out of the park long shot but
what if to olivander some one put a secrecy charm on the place with a secret keeper and all, let it be known olivander disapeared, but is accualy still there.
for all intensive purpases no one whould evan realize he never accualy left and because of the spell no one would even see the truth.
as for the why is speculative. if it were the DE i think the place would have been destroyed, not simply emptied.
of course olivander could simply have packed up for greener passtures.

I agree. I think that may very well be the answer to Ollivander's mysterious disappearance. No one but Dumbledore knew where Horace Slughorn was, correct? Ollivander could have taken to hiding as Slughorn had. I assume there would definitely be the appropriate evidence of his captors hidden in the the story, if he had in fact been taken or rescued. I have no doubt that J.K. Rowling would have deliberately left clues for those of us who take to Harry Potter sleuthing. But since there is very little to no evidence, I have reason to believe that he has just gone into hiding.



As far as this is concerned, I have to agree that this is a very well thought out theory, as I had been thinking on it myself. I almost wouldn't be surprised if this would be the case. As mentioned, Luna does seem to becoming more than just a idle character. Also, the fact that both she and Harry can here those voices beyond the veil, and her ability to know and reveal things others don't know [or things others just simply don't want to know] make me wonder if we haven't seen the last of her. I really think you have something here, JanValentine00. But it is all to be seen when Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is released.

I think it is totaly true that luna is going to become extremely important in the last book. she also seams to just know things that others dont and in the investigation of horcrux's that could be extremely important. I also look to the mystery of ollivanders disapearence being solved. speaking of which as i was reading HPSS again I picked up on the fact that harry never has really "liked" him. I wonder if this means he is a death eater or at least on voldy's side.

Funny, I was just rereading GoF and found Ollivander's character (at the weighing of the wands ceremony) somewhat offputting. He's extremely self-impressed in terms of his own wands, tho people do say he's the best so I guess that's not unfounded--but its also unnecessary. His comments when Harry bought his wand, about the "greatness" of the acts its brother's wand did, were distasteful, and yet when you think about it that's not far off from what the sorting hat says in Harry's ear.....At any rate, what strikes me about him is how detached he is from people even as he is helping them choose wands. His detachment reinforces the mystery of his disappearance.

I am more and more persuaded that Ravenclaw's wand plays in here, since Ravenclaw is supposed to finally get some play in the last book, and that Arthurian connection that could be read as including a wand is attractive.

The way I see it, we are still to know these little facts about Snape:

1. His child hood, which obviously has something to do with his entire course of his life.

2. His relationship with the marauders and possibly Lilly. After what Harry saw in Snape's pensieve, I think there is more to the story that we actually know.

3. What Exactly happened with him and DD: from the start where he were caught evasdroping the prophecy to the day he killed him.

4. What Exactly happened with him and voldemort.

5. How and why he saved DD while destroying the ring-horcrux.

6. What did he do that is so good that he earned the full trust of DD.

7. his relation with RAB (if any).

OK, so we agree that Dumbledore thinks that it is something of ravenclaw's or nagini.
How ever, I don't think that it would be Nagini. Voldemort has part of his soul in each of his Horcruxes and he obviously would keep them well protected, and well hidden.
Nagini has been out and about putting voldemorts horcrux at risk.
So if it was not the snake, what could it be? Me and my cousin had this discussion a few weeks ago.
My Cousin said it could be "Hogwarts and History" Her reasons were :
1.) Voldemort loved Hogwarts and tried to know everything about it. and often people are saying that Hogwarts is a Horcrux, this would be a way for that to happen.
2.) It could never leave the school because It is the library's property.
3.) People are saying how the last horcrux is "right under Harry's nose" or something like that, Well, Harry and Ron (though constantly encouradged by Hermionee) have never red the book, and over looked it.
I however disagreed with her because:
1.) It could easily be damadged by a student because they just see is as a library book .
2.) and Voldemort probably wouldn't have 2 of his Horcruxes hidden in disguise as the same thing. ( The Diary was a book)

If we are onto something, let us know.

I don't think he meant "great" as in good great, but great as in big great.

I don't know about wands as horcruxes, they're pretty personal things, I don't think voldemort would put a part of his soul in something that was, in a way, a part of someone else, if you get my meaning...

I think one of the horcruxes is something we haven't even been introduced to yet. If you think about it we've got tonnes yet to find out about the past and the last time voldemort was in power and the time just before he got really powerful.

rejazz,
you say that you do not think that the wand would be a horcrux because it is very personal.
but wasn't gaunts ring and the locket very special and personal to Marvolo, i mean it seemed as if he loved the ring and locket more then his children.
and the cup, Hepzibah Smith thought it her greatest treasure along with the locket.
and if nagini is a horcrux she seems to be voldys closest helper in a matter of speaking so thats also personal, even though its personal to him it is a personal item.

so why couldn't Ravenclaws wand be a horcrux?

I like the idea that Ravenclaws wand is a horcrux, but if so I don`t believe that Ollivander has it.
First reason is that Ollivander and DD were in touch. I mean, he told DD that that THE WAND chose Harry. So DD would know if Ollivander has something from Ravenclaw. That would mean something to DD after Harry told him in GoF what LV said in graveyard ( I guess that than DD realize that LV made several horcrux). Or if Ollivander wouldn`t said anything to DD about Ravenclaws wand, DD still had enough time to figure something out, After all they knew each other.
Second, why would LV give horcrux to Ollivanderin in first place? Only if Ollivander is DE. And I think he`s not, because if he was he would told LV about Harry`s wand and Priori Incantatem!


I don`t know if someone said that already but I think that places where LV put each horcrux could represent part of LV`s life:

1.Marvolo`s house – his heritage (ring)
2.Cave – childhood in orphanage (necklace)
3.???? – I think somewhere in Hogwarts; well, time in Hogwarts (cup)
4.???? – at Borgin and Burkes;time at Borgin and Burkes and studying Dark Arts (Wand???)
5.Malfoy – LV`s and DE`s terror (diary)
6. last horcrux would be Nagini ( if so he is probably with LV) – represents his „second“ life after incident with Harry
7.LV himself

In that case DD was right about Nagini, or if Harry (I hope he`s not) is a horcrux than he would also represent that „second“ life .
Also cup could be at Borgin and Burkes and wand (or something else, like Mirror of Erised) in Hogwarts.

This is very interesting. I'm wondering why you dont count the diary as representing time in Hogwarts, since that's precisely what it was (it encapsulated the Hogwarts time). Or are you saying something about the sequence of his MAKING the horcruxes?

I'm thinking the locket represents his time at BB, since Hebzibah revealed it to him during that time, and Burke had persuaded Merope to sell it to him originally for a song. Interestingly, Burke's name mean "gruesome murder involving suffocation and dissection" according to HPL. And his first name, Caractacus, means "beloved". Beloved murder.

I think overall you're really right, that there is probably something systematic to the horcruxes besides their number. Where and what they are being knit together the way you say would do that. And it would validate DD's sense that Tom's past is the key to the whole 'riddle' (hee hee).

What if the LV we have been following during the series of books is the 6th horcruxe and Nagini is the real LV waiting to see if it can kill HP.

HP must have been looking through Nagini eyes in GOF when the old man was killed because it describes the chair turning round and harry see LV body.

In OotP he sees through Nagini again when Mr Weasley was attacked at the MoM.

When LV finds out he cannot touch the Prophecy it is described from a sideways angle.

If this is so when HP kills LV and thinks it is over Nagini transfigures back in to a human and kills HP. Bit of a shame for HP

This may be the case because when LV tried to kill HP when he was one he had just killed LP and his sole was in pieces who is to say when the spell backfired it did not come out of his body split in two pieces.

Just my theory

Not so, Harry was veiwing the scene as we would veiw the Harry Potter films, not through someone's eyes but rather as an external party, present but not taking part in the action. He see the snake move so he couldn't have been watching through Nagini's eyes.



I think the diary is more his heritage than his time in Hogwarts as it was used to provide proof of his being Slytherin's heir and that's why it was used as a trophy rather than his accomplishment at school (apart from him opening the Chamber of Secrets and framing Hagrid of course but both of these tie in with his heritage). The cup, I think, represents the intellectual acheivements at Hogwarts; the learning baout magic and magical history as well as the history of Hogwarts itself. I'm in no way convinved about the wand and don't think I ever will be, I just can't see it surviving over a thousand years having seen how easily Ron's was broken with the car and Whomping Willow, surely Ravenclaw would have been in situations where it may have broken and after her death it probably fell into uncaring/uncareful/just plain clumsy and was lost or broken or both and the fell into obscurity.

Harry technically wasnt seeing through Nagini's eyes, and yet the perspective he has on those scenes is more Nagini than LV, or maybe we should say, at least as much Nagini as LV.

This idea about Nagini's eyes (or perspective) has been the first thing that's made me take it seriously as a horcrux.

Plus LV having sort of split himself in a fairly uncontrolled way in the Potter attack and the horcrux landing in Nagini gets Harry off the hook, so.....it would also help explain the parceltongue if Harry's attachment to LV is partially an attachment to Nagini.

While I do think Nagini's independent life is a risk for LV, it may be one he is willing to take, to get to see his horcrux doing things that he himself wants to do. And the "friend" value DD says LV may place on it (if he places it on anything) might be something exquisite to LV in so far as he is capable of any such attachment.

Actually I was more focused on places that meant something to LV then on meaninng of items that LV made horcruxes. So I puted horcruxes by my opinion in order of LV founding items.I put those horcrux in places witch could represent part of LV`s life from begining( his heritage) til now (in order of LV founding that items).
Diary is exception.
I put diary 5th because he intended that diary open the Chamber ( as it happened in CoS, but he wanted that Malfoy do that when he was "at his prime"( how to say it on English??), not when he was haft death) - there was some risk for soul in that - so he must have made that risk when he already made several horcrux. to make sure!
And as I already said I was more focused on places where to hide horcrux, so MAlfoy is the one who represents LV`s and DE`s terror - as DE himself and LV`s man of trust - not diary ( he was just done at that time). And Marvolo`s house is the one that represent heritage...

But I like idea of items meaning something more.I didn`t see that


Yes, since HArry could "entered in˛LV`s head" he also enterd in Nagini`s because she has part of ŁV`s soul.
But then thats opens the question why Harry can enter in LV`s head in first place.
For me answer would be: because he`s horcrux too !!! - so now I have to many horcrux!!!

I totally know what you mean... hmm i can't explain what i mean, i didn't mean like a personal item like the ring and the locket, i meant as in the wand is specific to who's using it, like it's not a possesion or and heirloom like the ring and the locket, it's almost like a part of the person who's it is.

i think i meant that i can't imagining jk having him put a part of his soul into something that is so attached and specific to somone else. like nagini is HIS helper.

argh i'm so bad at explaining things, but yeah.

Horcruxes

#1. Diary - Distroied
#2. Ring - Distroied
#3. Locket. - Active
#4. Cup - Active
#5. Nigini? - If Is Active
#6. Something Of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw's - Active

Now Locations Locations The Locket

The Barman Drew His Cloak More Tightly around his neck and walked away PG. 245

I think that the barman has the locket About the others places of Toms childhood the Orphanage perhaps not sure any thoughts anyone

I just have a problem with nigini being a horcrux. I think the only "living" horcrux is LV himself and the rest are items he has hidden, possesses or controls in some way. I do think the idea of a horcrux at hogwarts is perfect. with DD gone the final battlefield maybe? If it is right under their noses, could be many things, house cup, pictures, armour, magical items maybe. I do feel that something of all the founders will be included, but what of ravenclaw and especially gryffendor. definitely not the sorting hat or the sword that kills the basilsk. at least...i don't thiiink so. I also find it a long shot to be an ancient wand, possible but i just don't think a wand. I think something will be found in godrick s hollow.

rejazz
i thought thats what you might mean but i thought i might point out the other ones anyway
so since the wand almost chooses the person rather then the person choosing the wand, the fact that the wand is connected to the person by that bond would make it less likely to be a horcrux.

i could go either way with this.
it either makes more sense that i would be a horcrux, because other then ravenclaws body, how much closer to him could u get?
or since its so personal it would make it less like LV to make it a horcrux.
no idea which i think it is though, i cant make up my mind

Here's an odd thought---um, I hesitate even to say this, but it just struck me as a good explanation for how Snape killed DD with a overkill of an AK. And it might account for the "something of Gryffendor's" being a horcrux....

Could DD have been a horcrux? We have no evidence of what it would be like for the spell for horcrux creation to transpire, so we would have no idea whether a living being would be aware of being made one. And we never had an explanation for why LV came to DD seeking a job. But he did have quite a bit of time there in DD's office, and even seems to have gripped his wand at one point. And DD seemed genuinely perplexed at why Tom was there. And this might not mean anything, but he did get a little nasty (deservedly, mind you) with Tom before he left--effects of suddenly having a bit of LV in him? DD was the only person who ever really mattered to LV in any way, and would be an ideal choice for him, an exquisite act of domination, to make him a horcrux.

So maybe DD had an inkling by the end that he was one, and Snape was told that when the time came that Draco was supposed to kill him anyway, Snape should do it. If Snape hates LV like I think he does, that would explain the look on his face as he did it. It would also explain, beyond DD's sheer personal abilities, his particular adeptness at figuring out LV's post-Hogwarts "style" as per the cave protections.

And DD has been right under Harrys nose.

Hmmm.....

I have a problem with this theory in that you suggest that Voldemort was aware of making Dumbledore a horcrux, that he planned to do so. If this was the case then why would he have told Draco to kill him? Surely not even Voldemort would want Dumbledore dead enough to lose one of his horcruxes to the notion?

Well, that's probably the best argument against the theory. One might counter it this way: if LV had gotten wind of DD being on a quest to destroy all the other horcruxes he might have decided to cut his losses, believing that only DD would be powerful enough to find and destroy them. So he decided to sacrifice one piece in order to save the others. Or maybe the plot with Draco was just a ploy, and he really expected, as DD said, that Draco would be killed in the attempt--the Draco thing may have been pure revenge against the Malfoys (I cannot imagine that LV would really think Draco would be up to this challenge). So maybe Snape agreed to the vow knowing that DD would indeed have to be killed to destroy the horcrux that is him, and this would simultaneously save Draco from LV (which DD would have wanted). The hatred and revulsion on Snapes face might have been rage at the twisted evil of LV, putting everyone in these manipulated positions.

I read somewhere that people have been making connections with arthurian ledgend and some harry potter stuff. Merlin would be the most obvious connection, but looking a little deeper we see connections within other parts.

As pumpkinjuice has pointed out earlier in the thread, the four hallows of the king fisher are the Stone (which i'd probably associate with the locket or ring of slytherin), the chalice/grail (hufflepuff cup), the sword (gryffindor) and the spear (or wand, the wand of ravenclaw). I read that a lot of scholars have associated the four hallows to the four treasures of Tuatha de Danaan. The four treasures of Tuatha de Danaan have been associated to the four elements, and JK herself has said that she associates each of the houses to an element, too.. I believe all of that is too uncanny to overlook.

Does anyone know if JK has shot down the theory of Gryffindor's sword being a horcrux? Because if not, as it was said at the beginning of the thread.. Dumbledore could definitely be wrong about the sword.

I think it more likely that LV's wand is a horcrux than Hufflepuff's because who went back into the Potter's house other than Hagrid to get Harry and why would they go back into the rubble unless LV instructed someone to retrieve his wand if something happened to him no matter what and to guard that wand with their life even though it is unlikely the wand is a horcrux because of how fail a wand is but a coment was made earlier that made alot of since as long as LV had his wand he would "live" because the soul in his body and the part in the wand so as long as he was alive the wand was safe and as long as nothing happened to his wand he'd live forever that would explain why Wormtail had LV's wand

I guess that could explain why wormtail had LV`s wand, but I don`t believe LV would trusted to Wormtail something so important . He knows that Wormtail is with him only because he`s afraid of him ( LV said something like that in GoF on graveyard ). And where would Wormtail hide the wand when he was rat?
But it would be good to know how Wormtail got LV`s wand and more important who retrieved LV`s wand?




That would mean that DD said Snape about horcruxes!! And as far as we know he didn`t told that anyone except Harry- not Professor McGonagall, and I never had a feeling that DD trusted Snape more than her.

Well, I don't know--Snape was the one who saved DD's life when his hand was destroyed; Snape was the one DD asked for that fateful night. So while Magonagall was deputy headmistress, Snape was more the LV-fight partner to DD. Anyway, it is not essential that DD have told Snape about horcruxes for him to have told him to kill him (DD) instead of letting Draco do it, tho that would shift the meaning of Snape's expression. I guess the question is whether DD would feel a need to tell Snape why he was coming home with injuries, and maybe he did so that Snape would know what kind of serious dark magic he had to counteract with whatever remedies he knew.



As much as I would like to have come up with the Arthurian connection, I did not--that was several other people earlier in the thread. I just mentioned it because, like you, I thought it was brilliant and intriguing!



I suppose Wormtail could have known a good LV place to stash the wand for safekeeping while he went ahead and played rat for twelve years. Thinking of this, I start to wonder if the possibility of the wand being a horcrux connects to the Ollivander disappearance? Hmmm...

i would like to say that the seven horcruxs are as follows

1 the diary
2 the ring
3 the locket
4the cup
5 the snake
6 an item for grffindore or raven claw
7 harrys scar

you may say well that makes no since at all well it does if part of voldemorts soul is in harrys scar that exaplains that every time voldemort has a strong emotion harrys scar hurts

There are only 6 suspected horcruxes and then Voldemort's body. So unless you but into Albus' theory that Harry was unintenionally made a horcrux then you have one too many.