Actually BC Jr was mentioned as well. Didn't he say something about a most trusted servant doing his masters bidding? That was Barty not wormtail.

LV keeping Wormtail close like that and not trusting him with tasks like Barty goes with the old saying 'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.

Funny (ironic) that he trusts Snape but not Peter huh?

Cris

I think that the reason he trusts Snape, but not Peter is that Snape hated Lily and James. Peter, however, was likely to feel guilty about selling out his friends and in turn sending two to their deaths, and one to Azkaban. He doesn't trust Peter because he believes that Peter will turn spy on him, to help get rid of his guilt over what he did to his friends. Snape, while it's his fault that Voldemort was after the Potters, hated them. So why would he feel bad about them dying?

Also, Peter is terrible at Occlumens, well, at least, I would assume he is...so, Voldemort probably knows that he is in debt to Harry. At the same time, Snape is known to be very good at occlumens, so he probably hid the fact that he was indebt to James, knowing that could hurt him.

Weasly_Girly_83 - I agree with you. I also think that LV keeps wormtail close by as he is known to follow where the power is - and that wormtail only returned to LV was b/c he feared LV... I can't see wormtail being any good at occlumens either - I don't think he was good at anything.

Maybe though having wormtail hanging around, it will be the end of LV as well - I mean he still does owe his life persay to harry for saving wormtail from sirius and lupin....

anyways - gotta get back to work now. will probably add some more when I get off and am at home to really have a clear mind to think more.

Ok, this is really off topic, but I just thought of something else, in the begining of OotP we saw that Wormtail was living at Snapes, so if Snape is realy on the orders side, (I believe he is, but am not going to get into that here...) then wouldn't he be able to use Wormtail somehow? Or have him help the order in some way? I personally think that he would be scared enough to do whatever Snape tells him, so I don't know. This goes with what Padfoots companion was saying, he owes Harry his life, and by living with someone who is secretly on Harry's side, well that should make it easier to pay off his debt...

Good point, Weasly_Girly_83. I agree that it would be easier for him, if Snape's on Harry's side and Wormtail knows about it. It wouldn't have much of an effect if Snape's on the right side and Wormtail didn't know about it, or if Snape's on the dark side and he did know about it, because that'd only make it harder for him to pay off his debt to Harry, because then he'd have to keep it secret from Snape, don't you think?

I don't think Peter's guilt is the reason Voldemort doesn't trust him. Wormtail cares only about himself; I doubt that he is even capable of endangering his own life just because he feels guilty. Peter's selfishness, on the other hand, can prove much more hazardous to the Dark Lord. I think someone has mentioned already that Wormtail sticks with the most powerful side. If he feels that he has a better chance of survival or more benefits if he joins the Order, he can easily betray Voldemort. Snape, unlike Wormtail, does not fall victim to his desire to stay alive.

yeah i totally agree with bluezz..

wormtail is so insecure about himself, and the only way to make him feel stronger is putting him with THE stronger.. he doesn't know how to defend him self, and his only way to face the problem, is running away from it or begging for clemence. as u can see, i totally hate Wormtail , and i think he deserves to die.. sorry if i'm being dramatic, but i just can't stand coward people and the ones who betray to them own friends

see you

I agree with both bluezz and aniiuum...

wormtail tends to go to where the strongest is, and right now it's on LV's side. I am guessing (more like hoping) that wormtail doesn't make it through the battle.... even if he does end up helping Harry win...

i completly dissagree with you

i think that even if snape is on the orders side he wouldnt want to get wormtail over on the orders side

wormtail doesnt do anything right
that means snape would be found out to be a spy becasue wormtail cant proform occulmency and LV would get the truth out of him and wormtail would completely give too much info about the order

its stupid to put trust in wormtail

look what happened last time people put trust in him
the potters ended up getting killed

justin that is a good point. They would have to treat Peter like Kreacher.

I don't think Peter is going to do anything for the good until he pays his debt to Harry, probably near the end and resulting in his death. (ding dong the rat is dead...)

Cris

justin, nobody's suggesting that the Order should allow Wormtail to join; we're just speculating that he would probably leave Voldemort is he feels the Dark Lord's power weakening. I, of course, am completely against Peter joining the Order; he does not deserve the privilege.

this is what i ment
you wouldnt be able to trust him at all

I was thinking more along the lines of him helping the order without knowing he's doing it. Of course they can't trust him. Look what happened last time. And, like you said, he's terrible at Occlumency, Voldemort would know. But if he thinks Voldemort is coming to his downfall, he may try to switch sides, or Snape could use him for something with him thinking he's helping Voldy, I see Peter as being fairly easy to manipulate...

Come on!! Wormtail was the last in his class. He was always behind James, Sirius and Remus. He used to hang out with them because they were the IT and the most intelligent guys ever!! so i believe he is fool enough to refuge at any place he finds it out safe.

LV is getting weaker, and with that, Wormtail is getting weaker too. He's scared about his safety, not about the damage LV could cause him..

take care*

I wouldn't count on Wormtail not being able to use Occlumency. Yes, he wasn't the brightest in his class, but with the help of his friends, he was able to become an animagus - in itself, a very amazing accomplishment. With someone's help, I think he can very well become quite good at Occlumency.


Voldemort causing him damage would jeopardize Peter's safety)

justin, my bad, didn't know who you were disagreeing with)

I thought it was HBP where Wormtail is living with Snape as his 'servant'... I maybe wrong, but OOTP doesn't start out at Snapes house, it starts out in Little Whining...


I also, I am totally agains wormtail joining the order; I don't think he will be allowed - and hey now that DD is :sobs: dead, who is 'running' the order anyways would it be Lupin or McGonagall??? anyways back to my point - if anything wormtail will be somewhere close by when LV (or another DE) is dueling with Harry and he (wormtail) will [if he decides to go by honor] have to save Harry...

obviously, wormtail can't be trusted to actually be a part of the order. but he could definitely be used without his knowledge. i think, though, that he shouldn't be underestimated. look how long he was able to make everyone believe he was dead. (of course, now that it's known what his animagus is, that would be a bit harder, but my point is that he can be very deceptive and is probably smarter than he's sometime given credit for, even though he is a huge coward) but it wouldn't be too hard to somehow use him without him realizing that he was actually helping the order.

also, about snape, there's a part of me that really wants to believe that he's still with the order and was put in the position where he had to "keep his cover" or something of the like, but then there's a part of me that has a hard time accepting that. i just have a hard time trusting him, at this point.

To be honest, I don't think they would let Peter join the Order anyway. He's caused too much trouble and pain to him. I think that Peter will actually die before he even gets a chance to rejoin the Order. If, for some reason, he is not killed before he quits the death eaters, there will be quite a few Order members against his admittance. Especially Harry, he wouldn't want Peter to join. And I don't think anybody, from either side, trusts him. As long as Peter is alive, he will be chased by people from either side.

A side note - The memberlist has been updated so everyone joining up through today is on the list. If you don't see your name there, feel free to let me know. The discussed topics list should also be updated soon, I suggest everyone take a look at it because there are many topics we have already discussed, such as Peter's loyalty. We'll let this stay for now, until we think of a new topic. Anyway, Congratulations Mooop! 181 members! Only nineteen more till the big 200!!

peter doesnt really have a place with anyone right now

hes getting bullied by snape and other DE

no one would let him into the order
hes been given enough chances

i dont think he's going to make it out of this 7th book alive

thinks arent looking good for him at all

obviously jk is not going to let Wormtail to live, she's going to kill him.. i'm sure haha

and wormtail has felt secure with neither the Order nor the Dark Side..

so i think it would be silly to let him alive if he doesn't have any place to go

take care*

I agree, she's going to kill him off. His only purpose was to prove that Sirius was innocent. He did that, so now what's left to do with him? There's a reason she wrote in that he owes his life to Harry. It's because he's going to end up giving it to him.

Also, he has this brilliant plan to allie himself with whoever is most powerfull, but he has to have figured out that there's a flaw to it, I mean, he's been at it for nearly 20 years now, so it should be pretty hard to miss. He switched to Voldemort's side to protect himself. However, it came out that he switched sides. Now, the order won't take him back. When Voldemort looses his power, Peter will have no place left to turn.

now i dont know because he has stayed alive that long who says he cant make it through one more book.

maybe he'll find a new group to hide and just live for a while

I think you guys are forgetting that Peter is still in debt to Harry. He owes Harry because Harry saved him from Remus and Sirius killing him. He's still alive because he owes Harry his life. I think that's really the only reason why he is still alive, to pay back Harry. After that though, he's most likely going to die. He's alive to sacrifice himself, that's it.

who says he has to pay harry back

hes not the type of person that will pay you back

it was harry stupid mistake for letting him live he shouldve just let sirius kill him
then voldy wouldnt be back and we'd all be happy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was Dumbledore who said that Wormtail was in debt to Harry. Peter himself did not voice the promise to one day repay him. Am I remembering this correctly? It's been a long time since I read PoA..
I think this "debt" is not exactly literal. Wormtail won't come to Harry saying "You saved my life and I will therefore give you some secret information about Voldemort, even though the Dark Lord will probably kill me afterwards." I think Peter will repay his debt in a more subtle way, perhaps not even realizing he is doing so.

I've always wondered about Wormtail's life debt. I have wondered if JK Rowling will pull a Gollum. For those of you who are fans of Lord of the Rings, this means that Wormtail like Gollum will become a guide for the trio to the Deathly Hallows or something like that. That way the life debt would be justly served. But how will they keep Wormtail in line? He is ound at one point to try to turn on them, betray them, or kill them himself. Then what would they do?

I don't think he'll be like a guide to them, first of all, he's locked in Snapes wall. Second, he's to worried about himself. If he's going to be helpful, then he'll do it subconsiously, without realising that he's actually doing something.

Ok, so who is the one saying that once a wizard/witch 'saves' your life, you must repay them - and who's to say that wormtail will follow creed? I mean couldn't he of 'paid' harry back in the end of GoF when wormtail was resurrecting LV? He could of said no and let Harry kill LV there or do it himself... dunno.

And yes I believe it was DD who said that wormtail owes Harry his life and is in debt to him for what Harry was done - just as Snape was to James for James saving Snape from Lupin in werewolf form.

Well, I think it's more of a moral thing that your in debt to them. But like, Snape hated James, and still felt he had to pay him back somehow. That's why he saved Harry in his first year. I know that Wormtail doesn't have many morals, being as he doesn't care who gets hurt as long as he's safe. But, I doubt that he'll enjoy being in debt to somebody who's parents it's his fault they are dead. Does that make sense?

I always thought it was a magical thing. Something which you couldn't control, it just sort of happens. It's one of those things you can't control, but you can't stop. I always kind of linked it with the Triwizard Tournament. Once your name comes out of the Goblet of Fire, you're bound to do the tournament... I think this is sort of the same thing. And I think that Wormtail will follow suit, not because he wants to, but because he has to.


Actually no, he couldn't have. He has his Horcrux's still. And Harry probably would have tried his best to kill Voldemort because he didn't know about the Horcrux's at that point. (And, maybe, Peter didn't either)


Yes, I think you are right.

I don't think that these life debts are going to play a very large roll in the story. Has there been any mention of an instance where a wizard repaid his life debt? JKR may use it in a small sense, but I don't see Harry getting saved by wormtail.
Back to the earlier posts, I do feel that foreigners will play a part in the order. Some have already, Madame maxime for instance. I think that Krum will be in the order after he has a fight with Karkaroff. And Fluer marrying into the Weasly clan. Will they bring their friends into the fight is the question.

I think Krum, Madam Maxime, and Fluer helping out is a possibility, and maybe Fluer's little sister, whats her name? I think its Gabrielle. Anyways, they could be helpfull. But Jo said she's not introducing any new characters. So, it doesn't seem very likely to me that their friends will play an important role. Maybe just that they'll help with like a duel or something. But nothing major.

Sorry, guys, but I have to interfere here. I think this is actually the third time we are starting to discuss the foreign characters. I'm going to have to cut off the conversation. I don't want the discussions going in circles. I hope you understand.

jamdan, I think this is one of those clues JKR loves to leave throughout the book. The mention of the "debt" seemed quite significant. It probably won't be the most important part of the last book, but I think this storyline will still play out somehow.

I agree with bluezz, I don't think JK would have mentioned it if it's not going to play a role in the ending. I don't really think that Bill and Fleur's wedding will be a big issue in the book, guess we'll have to wait and see. **counting down the days - even if it's still 5 months off**

jk never puts something on the books and then she doesn't use it.. i mean, she always hides something, the most irrelevant thing, but then she makes it a big deal, as the veil.. i mean, i thought it was just a courtain or something, and suddelny.. sirius died there *snob*

i agree with bluezz, the debt seems important and it might play a significant role in DH..

we don't know if Wormtail is going to pay back to harry.. i hope so *fingers crossed*

I agree, in these books, even the most insignificant detail ends up being used in a future book. So something they made a big deal out of, like Wormtails debt to Harry is going to be very important. Otherwise, why make a big deal out of it?

that's what i was thinking..

i mean, on PoA harry was sad because Wormtail escaped, and DD himself said something about the debt, so if DD said so *snob*, then for sure is going to be a big deal

I agree, I don't think JK would put something in the books if it wasn't irrelevant to the ending or any plot. What ever happened to the mirror of Erised? I am sorry if that topic was already discussed, it just crossed my mind... maybe that comes back into effect in the last book - maybe it helps locate the last remaining horcrux? Just some thoughts.

When Harry hid the HBPs potion book in the RoR he passed the Mirror. So it is in 'storage' in the RoR.

I really hope he uses it to find the horcuxes. Well he can probably only use it to find out what they are. And if the mirror itself is the object from Ravenclaw that some believe it is how would it show it self????

Cris

I'm not sure that the Mirror of Erised works that way. When Quirrell was trying to get the SS, the mirror showed him the Desire of His Heart, which was Him holding the SS. The mirror somehow managed to give Harry the stone. I don't know that Harry would have finding the various horcruxes as the deepest desire of his heart. I think the mirror might show him defeating LV. However the Mirror is not designed to show truth, it shows what we want. If harry wants the next horcrux to be at Godric's hollow, then the mirror would show him the horcrux at Godric's Hollow, but that might not be the truth. See how using the mirror could be misleading?

Good point. However, if you desire the truth, the Mirror can show it to you. There has to be some catch, though, otherwise it would be too easy for Harry to defeat Voldemort. If all that needed to be done was to look in the Mirror of the Erised, Dumblerdore would not have to go through the trouble of gathering memories to reveal the Dark Lord's secret.


This is a great topic. The only thing - we have to tie the discussion in with the Order. So.. How about: How can the Order use the Mirror of the Erised to help Harry defeat Voldemort? Can it even be used as a weapon against evil?

I agree that the mirror could be very uselfull to the order. But as far as it showing Harry horcruxs, he used it like that in SS/PS, Jo isn't one to repeat herself, so it would have to be used in a different way. So, what other ways can the order use the mirror?

Good point Robbie. When Harry was in front of the mirror his one desire was to get the stone before LV and not to use it for personal gain. Just to get the stone. LV/Quirrel's desire was to use it for personal gain. And the mirror was enchanted by DD to give the right person, with the right desire, the stone.

But, this can only be called intuition here, I believe that you can focus on what you truly desire (finding the true location of a horcrux for example) and find it. It will require skills that Snape was trying to teach Harry in HBP, clearing his mind and shutting it down to all but that one thing. Can he do it? That will be the test.

Cris

Thank you for the compliment.

Harry's potential ability at occlumency might be greater than we are led to believe. Snape was not providing a "conducive" atmosphere for Harry to learn. I think this was done on purpose by Snape, out of sheer hatred for Harry. I'm not a professional educator, but it seems Snape was setting up Harry to lose.

I think Harry will be able to shut his mind to concentrate, if the Mirror if Erised comes into play. However, I still wonder if it won't frustrate him like the RoR did with his search for Draco. He never really stumbled on the formula to find Draco's RoR, although when he did use his own need, the RoR appeared, apparently with the Vanishing Cabinent inside it. Also when Trelawny needed a place to hide her sherry bottles, she ran into Draco. So out there somewhere may be the mental image of the deepest desire that Harry needs to discover horcruxes, but I think the Mirror may not be as cooperative as some think.

LOL


That would be the understatement of the year!!!

Could he have also been trying some trial by fire?

Naw, I think that his hatred for Harry's Dad and the arrogance and hatred Harry was showing were too much for Snapes infamous self control. He could also get answers from Harry directely better this way.

Where Harry is concerned Snape loses control. Could this be an issue in the next book? Hhhmmmm.

Cris

H

Yes I agree with this.But in the fifth book,Draco wanted to get into the RoR to catch Harry red handed and he did succeed!.That situation was not for his own need.But when Harry tried,he couldn't..why is that?.

Didn't Draco know from Cho's friend what they were doing and that is how he got in?

Harry had no idea what Draco was up to. If Draco went in there specifically to find and fix the closet then Harry would have to need the same thing. He had to have some incling of what to need for, not just what Draco was doing.

Cris

I agree totally. Marietta went and told Umbridge who then called upon her Inquisitorial Squad to help her.... Draco knew what the RoR was needed for because of that (I just finished that chapter yesterday). Harry had ideas of what Draco was up to but not 100% sure of it. I believe that you have to be 100% sure of what you need for the RoR to show itself. I also think that if Hermione and Ron would agree with Harry, that Hermione could have figured it out and they would have known what Draco was up to....

Wow, a girl goes to school and misses everything! Ok, lets see if I can get cought up here, please bear with me. Ok, so when I left we were talking about whether or not Harry could use the Mirror of Eraised to find a horcrux, I don't think that would work because the mirror shows you what you want to see. Meaning that if he wanted to see a horcrux in Godrics Hollow, then there would be one there in the mirror, but not necessarily in real life.

As far as why Draco could get into the Room of Requiarment on Harry, but not the other way around. I think that Draco knew what was going on in there. Harry did not. Draco knew to think, I need to find the DA, so it worked. Harry didn't know to think, I need to fix the cabinet. So he couldn't use it. But this made me think of Treleawny, she didn't think of Draco, she was thinking of her own place, and still got in. So, shouldn't something have happened when he was walking past? I would think that it would have opened for his need and he would have found Draco. Does that make any sense?

As far as Snape hurting not helping Harry, I totally agree. I believe that Snape has come to the good side, but some emotions can't be controlled. His hatred for James will never go away. And as Harry is a living reminder of James, he hates Harry. He couldn't help but use that time to torture him, as he had been tortured by James. He took advantage of the situation to humiliate Harry, as he had been humiliated. I also agree with Cris [thatsProfessortoyou] that this could be important in the next book.

humm, i can't imagine Snape helping Harry, because SS has hurt HP in more than a way. he killed DD, he hates HP's dad.. i mean, i just don't think that's possible.

About the RoR, i have a doubt. I really didn't get why HP wasn't able to find out what DM was up to.. Draco found the DA, but Harry couldn' find the "secret operation" that he was doing.. why was that?

Yeah, i also think that Snape's rage against James (or even Harry) would be an important topic on the last book.. I hope everything goes right *fingers crossed*