I think the reason was that Draco knew to look for the DA, but Harry didn't know to look for 'a place to fix the vanishing cabinet.' But I was wondering about the fact that Trelawny was looking for a place to hide something and got in. So, couldn't Harry have walked in on Draco with something along the lines of 'A place to do something sneaky.' well, probably different wording. But you know what I mean.

With both the RoR and the Mirror of Erised, the issue is what is in the mind of the seeker. In both instances would it be better to be specific "I really desire to see where LV hid the next horcrux" or general "I really desire to defeat LV?" Harry was looking for a general place to hide the Prince's book when he found the RoR with the vanishing cabinent in it. He was specifically looking for Draco's hiding place when he failed to get in. Harry was an 11 year old yearning for his parents when he first looked in the Mirror. The charm of the mirror seems to be amendable. I say this because Harry got different results when he was in front of Quirrell/ LV. Perhaps DD had put a charm on the Mirror that will show the Horcruxes, but that would be too easy...

I actually don't think that Snape was hurting Harry by angering him. After all, Harry will have to use Occlumency against Voldemort, and I doubt the Dark Lord will provide a comfortable atmosphere in order for Harry's attempt to be successful. He needs to be able to deal with emotions like anger and at the same time block his thoughts. Not that Snape tortured Harry with these good intentions in mind; he probably enjoyed torturing the boy. Still, what he did wasn't really hurtful.

The conversation is bordering on the Order-unrelated territory. Guys, I hate to ask you again, I really do, but please try to keep in mind that we have to be discussing the Order.

I know I added something about Umbridge in here somewhere about her being either a DE or under the imperius curse - well I just came to that part in OOTP and thought I would add to that part, which is I guess touching on a subject already discussed, but this leads me to believe that Lucious had something to do with her and the imperious curse or her even being a DE.... once I get this said, I promise not to start this discussion again

It starts on page 745 Ch. 32

She was trying to get some veritaserum from Snape, but he had none left... and she says

then goes onto page 746 Ch. 32:



there's just something there that is making me think that with Lucious contantly in with the Minister and his collegues (sp) that Lucious has them all under the Imperious Curse, but only having Umbridge act out everything.

Also to get off that subject, if you are 'dead' once passing throug the veil, then why are there people whispering?

Ok, well just one last thing here, while I agree with the point you made, wouldn't it have been better to teach him how to block his mind first, and then present him with obsticales to work around?



I don't think that she was under the imperious curse. She believed what she was doing was right. She believed that Dumbledore and the Order were trying to take down the ministry so strongly that she would stop at nothing to stop them. Harry was helping them. In her mind that was all she needed to know to make him the enemy. Does that make any sense?

Yes it does make sense, and it is making me start to think that way - the more I sit on it now that that chapter is fresh in my mind... it makes sense that she would want to minister to stay in everyone's good side and if Harry and DD were going around contradicting Fudge then yeah I could see her doing that of her own free will.... Thanks Weasley_Girl_83 for brightening the subject now

I don't want to stray into non Order-related territory. I was just following the conversation where it had led so far. But in a kind of ethereal way, isn't almost everything related in some manner to the Order, or is that just being silly?

If you think hard enough, yes, I guess you can relate almost anything here to the Order. Still, we can't, for example, discuss where the trio will go and what it will do in the future, becauce technically, you can draw parallels between Harry and his friends and the Order. The conversations have to actually in some way center around the Order. I really do not enjoy cutting off interesting debates and I am trying to be as lenient as possible, but you have to understand the dangers here. Worst case senario, if our discussions repeatedly go into another club's territory: the thread gets shut down and Mooop is no more. I do not want that to happen, and I hope you do not want that either. That is why I keep insisting on discussing specifically the Order.

Snape was doing DDs bidding in teaching Harry Occ right? That would be Order business. Snape learned the hard way, probably from his mother or in defense against her. I believe that she was good at both because of her skill with Gobstones. He had to learn to keep his innermost thoughts of hatred and loathing away from her. That is the only way he knows. His emotions for Harry are so strong he couldn't disregard them anyway. And you all are right in saying that it will better equip Harry for facing LV in the end. Snape would know because he has on countless occasions.

Snape's roll in and with the order is so crucial to Harry. Everyone in the Order is treating him so nicely, spoiling and pampering him. Just like DD didn't want. Snape is giving him a tast of what he will face. His trial by fire.

Padfoots,
I like that idea. I origionally thought Umbridge was just finally going fully around the bend and showing her true colors. But her being under the Imperious Curse is good. How about Draco being the one though? He had the hungry look because he was causing her to hurt Harry?

Very interesting. That goes on the 'things to ponder' list.

Cris

edit: sorry, I'm always a day late and a $ short. I read page 37 and didn't see 38. I was refering to the quotes about Padfoots put up about Umbridge.

If the Order follows Mad-Eye Moody (the real one), then they are too noble to use an unforgiveable curse. However, could a situation arise where, like Umbridge, they might feel justified in using a Cruciatus curse to get information out of a Death-Eater? While I think it would be a departure for them, is it possible?

I might be barking up a wrong tree here, since Mad Eye refused to use them when he was one of the most successful aurors against the death eaters. It just caused me to wonder, if Umbridge was once "pure" of thought, could members of the Order allow themselves to "go 'round the bend?"

thatsProfessortoyou, are you thinking that Snape hated or was ashamed of his mother the way that Tom Riddle was? We only know that Snape has a memory of cowering in the corner while his father abused his mother. We don't know that Snape loathed her for the situation. Although it would be a reasonable conclusion.

Or did Snape learn Occlumency because of his dabbling in the dark arts, and his need to keep thoughts private, generally, from the kind of wizards he encountered there?

bluezz - thanks for your service, you don't need to be too afraid of calling us to task. It is your job. I know its a difficult one, since I often forget the "rules" I need to be called back some times. Its a tough job but someone's got to do it. I also forget that Harry Hermione and Ron are not members of the Order because of their time at HQ.

Robbie, Yes, he was probably ashamed that a witch would allow herself to be subject to such treatment by a Muggle. Why put up with it? At the very least leave, at the worst turn him into something.

I see that Snape was affraid and upset by what his father did. If mom could read his thoughts one of two things could happen (or possibly both).
1) She would be very depressed by what it was doing to her son (I hightly doubt this one) and he would want to spare her that.
2) She would be mad at him and take it out on him in some way (not speaking, yelling, hiting etc).

He would have needed these skills before he met with DD after the prank that almost killed him, because he kept several things from DD.

This great skill of his is one of the reasons DD trusts him and asked him to teach Harry. The others in the Order, with the exception of Sirius, trust him too. More on DDs say so but the respect his powers.

As long as Snape is not a duplicitous creep he is a wonderful asset to the Order.

Cris

That's an interesting thought, that Snape was ashamed of his mother. But, in my opinion, he probably didn't know he was a wizard until he got his Hogwarts letter. Even though he lived with a witch, the fact that she was abused by her muggle husband makes me think that the fact she was a witch was a secret. Think about it, would you want to upset somebody that you know has a wand in their back pocket? It's like getting into a fight with somebody who has a gun, and you just have your fists, it won't work.

So, if she was hiding the fact that she was a witch, then Snape wouldn't have known about it to be ashamed of it, he would have probably felt bad for her that she had no power against his father. Now, once it came out that she was a witch, then he might have been upset. He spent all those years feeling bad for her, and she could have taken care of his father if she wanted to.

I had several gut feelings when I read about Snape's past (the limited info we have). One was that Mr Snape had something on Eileen and he used it to control her. What could that be? Could it just be battered wife syndrome? Low self esteem and a broken heart oversomething? (no just because Eileen and Tom went to school together doesn't mean they had an affair but maybe someone else?)

Snape had a lot of things bottled up inside him that he could not/would not let out. A lot of repression.

Something bad happened. Did Eileen mame or kill her husband or did little Severus?

We will probably get much more on this but my gut says it's bad and Snape is the way he is mostly because of it and he has a few abilities (Occ/Leg) because of it.

Cris

I agree with thatsProfessortoyou... maybe Eileen was going through the battered wife syndrome. But then why would she keep her magic a secret, I mean if it could save her from being abused (whether mentally or physically) then maybe she should have used it.

Of course it could be because of SS's dad that he learned occlumency - maybe he figured out how to block out his dad, 9 times out of 10 when wife/mother is abused so is the kid, so maybe to help make himself strong he did occlumency - not meaning to - to help shut out his feelings. Does that make sense?

I don't think Eileen hid the fact that she was a witch. So why did her husband still abuse her? Maybe he knew Eileen was not going to use the wand. If you were arguing with someone you loves and you had a knife in your back pocket, would you use it? Unless you are a very violent person, probably not. I think Eileen wouldn't use magic against her husband because she loved him and did not want to hurt him.

In somewhat of a response to thatsProfessortoyou, I think it is a possibility that snape did harm his father as a child. Remember Harry blowing up his aunt because he got angry? I can only imagine the kind of hate snape had if he watched his dad beat up his mom on a regular basis. As a young wizard, he couldn't control his powers, though, and might have done something accidentally.

I don't think that JK would have Wormtail pull a "Gollum" or anything. Or at least I don't think that she'll have Wormtail be a guide for the trio. But that's a good theory! But I just don't think that will likely happen. I think that it would just complicate things a bit.



*Sirius*

I haven't read the passages about Snape's family recently, do we know for sure who was abusing who? Maybe Eileen was using her powre. Maybe he watched his father being abused for years?

Cris

hmm...I'm pretty sure it was his father abusing his mother...I'll check...



So, it was definitley his father, but it doesn't say anything about actual abuse, just fighting. Now that that's cleared up, I take back what I said earlier about being confused why she didn't use her wand. Actually, having re-read that passage, I would like to recant everything I have said on this subject...I think that Snape may have learned to hide his emotions even before he went to Hogwarts so as not to upset his parents, he didn't want them to know he was upset by their fighting. I also believe that he knew he was a wizard. I no longer think that his mother had kept that fact hidden...and yea...I'm blabbering know, so I'm gonna stop.

Glad to know MooP is alive and well!!!

Hm I dont have much to go on this topic but I'll try.

I believe Snape learnt occlumency because as Weasleygirl said he shut himself out of his parents life. I doubt they ever knew his exact emotion, possibly out of fear of being told off, laughed at or ridiculed. His mum possibly could have realised this and via occlumency tried to enter his mind to calm him, being so protective of himself I think it's highly possiblile he realised how to block her out, so she could not invade but also because he didnt want to hear anything she had to say, he developed his own opinions based on his observations and didnt want to hear his mothers reasoning for not standing up for herself, or possibly not standing up for snape? We dont know if the reason his mum was cowering in the corner was because of something snape had done? Something along the lines of the father having problems with "her kind"?

Actually yes I almost totally believe that the fight as described was because of something, some wizard quality Snape may have shown and it caused some trouble and it's been blamed on his mother and she is possibly trying to protect him? I think I've gone back on myself a bit here but ah well.

Looks like it's time for a new topic. How about.. switching sides? Who, if anyone, do you think will switch sides before the story is over? Will any of the Death Eaters become do-gooders? Will any Order members chicken out and choose to join the dark side? Only one request - please avoid Snape when discussion this He deserves a whole different debate altogether. Try to focus on other sketchy characters, exhibiting suspicious behavious - such as Mundungus Fletcher, Malfoy (yeah, he's evil, but would he ever be able to or want to kill?), etc. Feel free to question anyone you want (except for Snape, of course)

Now, to some Mooop business. The club's first anniversary is coming up March 20th and the Mooop team is planning a little celebration. Among the things we are discussing is holding a treasure hunt/competition; the competition part of which might involve writing short short stories, poems, drawings, and other things of this nature. The problem is that we probably would not be able to provide a decent enough prize for the winner - only a Mooop-wide recognition, perhaps. We are trying to do our best to make a better award possible, but we might very well not be able to do so.
So.. I would like to know how many of you will still be interested in participating even if we cannot provide a luxurious prize? How about if we do give away a (not very large, of course) material award? Please leave your comments when you post, or just PM me. It would be very helpful to see if designing this treasure hunt is even worth while. And please post if you really want to participate, not if you are just considering it. Also, PM me if you have any ideas for the prize. Thanks, Mooops!

oooh good discusion question! hmm...I think it's possible Malfoy will switch sides. I stronly believe that when they were on the tower at the end of HBP, that he was considering Dumbledore's offer before the other D.E. showed up, and if they hadn't come, then he would have taken Dumbledore up on it. I think that if he can convince the other order members, then he may still try to take up Dumbledore's offer.

Plus, he is unable to actually kill somebody, he doesn't have it in him. I think that if he were ever able to get up the guts to do it, Jo would have just had him kill Dumbledore. What's the point of having this big long chat about how he can't kill people, just to have him do it later? She wouldn't have spent so long on that point if it weren't important.

On the topic of the celebration, I would definitly still participate, even if there isn't a prize! I think a treasure hunt or a short story contest sounds really fun!

Hm good question I struggled with the last.

I don't think Malfoy is that evil at heart, a bully maybe but unless severely provoked ie someone killed his mum or dad i don't believe he would kill, he's just a kid and there are huge differences between the boy malfoy and the boy riddle so I dont believe he's tha capable. I think he needs a fresh start.

Mundungus is stupid, he would not willingly go to the DE but I can actuallyy seeing him landing in some trouble with them via stupidity resulting in him cutting a deal with them to get him out of death.

It will be interseting once Voldie is gone, what will happen to the DE then? Bellatrix is too loyal so she would go into hiding, wearing a hood often but grovelling may occur, she may ask for redemption, I dont know why but it seems likely?

The short fat DE sorry cant remember their name will just slip into the shadows as I think quite a few of the less important or known DE will.

Crabbe and Goyle may be dragged in with their parents but im not sure Voldie would have them, they're not overly bright but then again they'd be an easy sacrifice?

I think the order members are safer, as I believe the good side will win, not easily but they will which will result in more conversions or pleas to come from the bad to good side once they realise they will lose and some of the DE may not be as willing to give their lives in a fight they know that they cant win?

Oh and I would participate in activities for sure as long as I was on that week, ive been very distant lately - apologies - but to borrow ideas from W.A.W we did some acrostic poems with Dumbledores name and that was a great one so that's an idea although not original.
But who needs prizes, you could crete a winners avatar or signature recognising the win??


Oh I just thought of another thing, I know were not discussing Snape and I dont really want to but what happens if there is someone else acting as a double agent????

Ever since reading book 6th i've felt that draco will for sure become good. He may be a bad person but hes not evil. Hes was only following Voldemort's orders because:

1. Its voldemort and you do what he says

2. Because he was trying to protect his family

and 3. Because its what he thought he wanted. He thought he wanted to be a DE like his father. He saw how powerful his father was and how much control he had. draco never realized how dangerous or how purely evil voldemort was because he never had the experience until now. and now hes realized he does not like being on the side of evil. i believe he will turn to the good fight n book 7 and instead of going into hiding like dumbledore had offered he will stand up and fight and sadly he will die...or at least thats what i think.

I also heard some interesting theories about bella swithcing sides maybe to save her sister. someone did reasearh on bella's name and found that it meant something like quick to dishonor or something. i cant remember exactly. i never imagined bella switching sides she seems obsessed with voldemort but maybe that obsession will soon show her that voldemort is in it for himslef and manipulates all of his followers into thinking that they are his number one.

in response to drinotonks and your thoughts of a double agent: just today i read an essay on mugglenet about MCgonagall being a double agent. the arguments were good but it was still a bit too far fetched for me.

Also i would participate in a short story/poem contest and the treasure hunt sounds really fun but i'd like to know more about it before i commit myself to it

I think that Draco will come to the Order. I believe that with Harry seeing the 'softer' side of Draco - with him not 'fulfilling' his orders from LV showed that he is not all bad. I have felt pretty much since HBP (which isn't long I know) that Draco was only doing the bad stuff b/c of his dad... I am sure with Lucious pretty much not in the 'lime' light of things that Draco would want to better himself to make the Malfoy name 'pure and good' again... although his hatred for muggles and mudbloods (such harsh words I know) maybe also from his dad, thus he may just start to see witches/wizards for thier ability not thier blood...

Mundungus I think will stay on the Orders' side, he may be crooked but I believe that he is smarter than given credit and that he knows that staying with the Order he would be better perceived where as evil never wins... at least that is my theory.

Crabbe and Goyle and also Pansy Parkinson, I think these will follow in Draco's lead....

All the Weasley's will remain on the Order side, even Percy will have seen his error at some point (I think he has - I had to take a break from reading Harry Potter for the moment - having to do a book discussion for work and they won't let me do HP ), he may have already done so, I can't remember, but he will come over to his mum and dad's side... of course there is a bone in my body saying that he will be 'captured' by DE's and put under the imperius curse....

Neville will remain with Harry, I think he is going to have a bigger role than the past books... I mean the prophecy could have been about him after all....

Lovegood - she doesn't have a bad bone in her body, she's definatley Order material.

I also think that the good Giants will come over to the Order's side, I hope and pray that they get sick of the way they are treated by their own kind and will remember DD's promise from OOTP...

and even though they will stay out of it as much as possible, I believe at some point that the Centaurs will have to fight, and I believe they will be fighting along side of the Order....

Now I know that I touched base on all characters for the most part that we hear about but aren't involved as much as others... I tried to stay away from anyone that was already in the Order, with the exception of the Weasley's; and I know I mentioned kids - well they will be of age soon enough and I believe that they will be on the Orders side wether old enough or not.

Ok now that I am done babbling, everyone have a great day!

i think his fear will keep draco on the dark side
hes too scared of voldy and snape

i cant think off anyone else right now
ill add somemore when i can think somemore

I'm not sure what Draco will do, I think he's stuck. I think that he realizes that he cannot be a Death Eater, because after what happened in HBP, he knows that he doesn't have it in him to kill somebody. He's smart, he knows if he sticks with Voldemort that he'll be tortured for failing that task, and possibly killed. Even if he is allowed to live, for how long? He will be assigned a new task, and when he can't complete it...he knows that by staying with the Death Eaters that he will be living in constant fear.

On the other hand, he knows he can't just leave. It's like Sirius said, "you don't just hand in you resignation to Voldemort, it's a lifetime of service, or death." He knows if he walks away now, Voldemort will hunt him down and kill him. Voldemort will probably use his mother as bait, and then kill her as well. And as soon as Lucius gets out of Azkaban, he'll be killed. If he were to leave he would have to find a way to convince the Order that he is really good, to get them to protect him. And just going into their pressence risks his execution, before he can even explain.

He's stuck. Either way, there is a good chance he dies. It's just a choice between being tortured on the way, or getting his parents killed. Neither one is exactly a good option.

I think Draco is bad just because he doesn't know any better. He was raised by a dark family, being a descendant of a long line of people who served evil. From the time he was a baby, Draco was taught "Voldemort and the Death Eaters - good," "Dumbledore and the Order - bad." He tries to be evil because that is what expected of him and that is what he considers to be honorable. In reality, though, I don't think he is ready to truly do evil things. But will he dare to become a disgrace his father and the long line of dark wizards who came before him?

Drinotonks, you have some good ideas there, thanks a bunch! We will inform everyone of the dates the Mooop celebration would be held on, so you'll be able to plan ahead if necessary

I really think that Draco would have taken Dumbledore up on his offer if he'd had a few more minutes. I mean, protection for him and his family? That's what he wanted deep down, I think, knowing what would happen if he didn't follow through with Voldy's orders. my prediction is that he will do something courageous in the war for the Order, kind of spur of the moment after realizing what the good side is. Will he survive, though? Personal opinion (sorry to all you draco lovers out there!) is that he won't live. I just don't see any way that he can.

I agree that evil is what Draco was taught so evil is what he'll try to do, but he just doesn't have it in him. I do think he will find the strength to defy his father, family, and evil in general to do what he knows is right.

I agree, Draco doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. He's been raised this way, he thinks what he's doing is right.

Has anybody here read the book Animal Farm, by George Orwell? I just had to read it for my English/Lit. class, but anyways, Draco reminds me of the pupies in that book. They were taken away from their mother and raised by the dictator/leader of the farm, Napolean. We didn't see them for about half the book, but when they came back they were these huge bull dogs that Napolean used like his own army, to enforce his laws. The dogs ended up attacking their own mother. But they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, because they were raised being told "Napolean's always right" and that they had to listen to him. They actually thought what they were doing was good.

Draco is the same way. He's lived his whole life in a house with Dark Wizards, being told "The Dark Lord's always right." You take orderrs from the Dark Lord. Listen to the Dark Lord. Then the Dark Lord told him to kill Voldemort and to hate muggleborns, so that's what he did. Because he actually thought that was good. He believed that Dumbledore was bad.

Here's a question that I'm sure has been asked elsewhere but I am pondering it anew.

Since Snape is such a good Legilimense he must have known that Draco was about to back down. He stepped in and did the deed. Well I guess this isn't a question. He did the deed because it was part of the plan. He had to because of the UV and because he and DD knew DD had to die.

So Draco was not going to kill DD. Would he have taken DD up on his promise of a safe life for the family or just fled?

I totally agree with BigKisses13. I also think the only reasons Draco was working for Voldie is because he thought that was what he wanted to do with his life. He had no way of knowing the kind of situation he was getting into. His mother gets it, and that's why she wanted to enlist Snape's protection in the first place.

Okay other people who might switch sides: Peter will come back to the good side (I believe in redemption), Crabbe and Goyle senior *might* switch sides if they fear for their families (I could see these guys as being bad because they thought it was the cool thing to do back in the day, but now they are family men, and that changes people), I could even see the Malfoys (Lucius and Narcissa) changing sides if they finally saw the light.

As to Order members who might fall to the dark side, the only persons I feel could be that dumb are Mundungus, and sorry to say Hagrid. But not purposely, only by saying or doing something that they shouldn't be doing.

I could see Petter changing sides, remember, he only joined the death eaters for protection, so if he thinks it's in his favor to re-join the order, then he'll do anything in his power to do that. The real question here is, will they take him back? Lupin most likely will not, he wanted to kill him in PoA, and would have if Harry hadn't stopped him. But no way will he let him back into the order. And Harry, while he didn't want Lupin and Sirius to become murderers, he's not exactly best buddies with Peter either. I think most of the Order will follow their lead.

Crabe and Goyle, I don't really see switching sides, they're the typical lackies, true right now they follow Malfoy, so if he were to switch, they may follow. But more likely they'll stick with the Death Eaters.

Lucius and Narcissa, again, I think they'll be sticking with the death Eaters. If Draco switches sides they'll be ashamed of him. They've been death eaters to long, and hate 'mudbloods' and 'bloodtraitors' to much.

Draco would have taken DD up n his offer for protection if snape and the other DEs hadnt arrived. but would draco's mother and father even want protection from the likes of DD? I think that neither of them would take the help that DD was offering them beause of their pride.

I can see Peter trying to come back to the good side just to save his own skin but i dont think the order would take him in. Hes caused to much trouble and he cant be trusted. The only way Peter would get protection from them is if DD would have taken pity on him (which i'm sure he would have) but its too late for that now. I dont want Peter on the good side anyways. I would love for people to switch sides and come to the good side but Peter is disgusting and for being so weak he has done way too much damage.

Crabbe and Goyle Senior are followers. Lucius is in Azkaban now. He no longer has power. Crabbe and Goyle will follow Voldemort. They are not brave eough to turn on Voldemort even if they wanted too. even if Lucius were to switch sides I'm sure they wouldnt.

I couldnt see Hagrid switching sides. He may be gullible but he is truly loyal to Harry and DD and that will keep him from going down any wrong paths.

i think that severus snape will become a do-gooder agian... i no it isnt much to go on but i hav a gut feeling that he will come back bcuz he only had to kill dumbledore because of that one charm thing he did that like binded him but he will continue to spy for the go guys and malfoy will do something against voldamort's wishes and will be frightened and try to switch sides but will get killed in the process

like i said before just a gut feeling...

I think that Draco is just a coward. I am not sure that his pride could allow him to come to the good side. His parents are terrified and i think that they are stuck on the bad side if they care to have a chance to live!
On the other hand Draco would possibly turn if Snape turned first. Draco admires Snape and would feel that there would be some protection there. I think that in a lot of cases people might turn to the good side if Snape did. He has a lot of influence over the others. They respect him. They respect him even if they do not like him (I might add).
If you look at the world events isn't true that if a high ranking officer or person turns coat that others follow, allowing a vulnerable period in the life of the group or faction. If you look at the Order, who is going to take over as head of the order? It is in real peril. Unless a strong leader steps up ,it is at risk for disbanding and then where would they all be?


Tracy

I dont think that Snape has that much influence over the other death eaters. If he reveals he's still on the good side i think the other death eaters would be appalled and would shun him and hate him, not follow him. Lucius is the one that the DE look up to and even if Lucius turned I'm pretty sure that no one would follow. It takes a strong willed person to deny Voldemort and if these people are followers they are not brave enough to go against the dark lord whether they want to or not

i think they would do a little more than shun him
the death eaters arent nice

like what sirius said you dont just turn in a resignation its a life or death service

snape isnt going to declare himself and actually mean it ever
it all depends how we is going to prove himself

i imagine the war and snape helping out and killing someone important

There is tons of information to go on that Severus Snape will again do good. ( I take it you have thought that he was on the wrong side to begin with?)

Consider:

1. He was trying to save Harry in SS at the Quidditch match
2. In book three, Snape follows the trio to the shreiking shack to protect them from the "murderous" Sirius Black. He shields them from the werewolf Lupin.
3. GoF (this was the turning point for me) if you reread the ending, Snape is one of the three faces in the Foe Glass that the fake Moody has in his office. If Snape was on the DE side, he wouldn't have appeared in that glass because he would have been on the same side as Barty Crouch Jr.
4. Snape is the one who alerts the Order when Harry and the others go to the MoM in search for Sirius. He didn't have to do that...he could have let them be out numbered and most likely destroyed by the DE.
5. In HBP I believe that he worked so hard to find out what Draco was planning not only to assist Draco but also to protect Harry and the Order. Dumbledore knew that Draco was planning to kill him the entire year. How? Snape told him...again not something he would have had to do if he was indeed really on the Dark Lord's side. He doen't allow Harry to be seriously hurt during his escape from Hogwarts...

I know that I will not convince most of you of Snape innocence to the point of devotion like me however, I think the points I have made are valid for consideration.

wow guess no one can read
not to be mean or anything

i think no one will really switch because theyre afraid of whats going on they just wanna stick together

I was thinking, even if known death eaters do want to change sides, will they be able to? I mean, it's not just a matter of fear for Voldemort. It's a question of wether or not the order will even allow them to join up? I mean, Dumbledore, the only one who truly believed Snape had changed (and I don't mean to continue the discussion of Snape, I just need to use Dumbledore for this example) was killed at his hands (wether or noth it was planned is not the point here) how many other members will really be able to believe that another death eater has switched sides? If I were a death eater, I wouldn't just be afraid of Voldemort's wrath, but also of how to even approach the order without getting killed in the process.

Well now I think just because a former deather eater but order member killed the head of the order, whoever is the head of the order won't let any death eaters join (wow that was a mouthfull). I mean they would be bargaining each of their lives if one death eater joined.

My bad!!! I was just responding to another post. I know this is short so I will read or try to read the entire thread before posting what I hope is an educated opinion...

Hey guys! A Mooop news update! We are now officially affiliated to the three biggest character clubs on VTM. SPELL have been our affiliates for some time now, but I'm happy to announce that we are now also affiliated to the Severely Obsessed Snape Society, and the Wise and the Wonderful. A toast to Inter-club Cooperation, and friendships ranging the length and breadth of the Lounge! Check out the announcement on our blog!

Also, in other news, Mooop week starts in less than a week, so it would be very appreciated if you could put something about it in your sigs, so stray Mooops can get to know about it! Thanks guys!

On with the discussion...



Excellent point, Weasly_Girly! Yeah, I think that was Dumbledore's greatest challenge - getting everyone to a point where they could get along long enough to work together. This is a good question - I mean, you don't want to trust just anybody, but showing people the door is precisely the thing Dumbledore tried to prevent. Remember what he said when Cedric died, about Voldemort being powerful as long as there were discord among people... I think bluntly not letting people join the Order would sow just as much discord. It feels like all the wisdom died with Dumbledore, almost.

But I guess a lot of Harry's quest will be about finding the wisdom to trust those who deserve to be trusted. As for me, I hope Snape's part of that lesson.

Thanks for making an announcement so us S.O.S.S members can feel welcome. Now that my comments about why I feel Snape is a vital member of the Order and that his bravery (which I didn't go into) is unmatched as there are no other double agents as we know is valid, I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were. I will however still familiarize myself with your present topics so I can add to your discussions as well.
~nevillesgirl

Honestly, I don't think the Order would accept any former death eater. But then again, if it was someone they did not despise completely and if that person seemed sorry enough for his/her previous behavior.. well, I guess it is possible. What about the death eaters? Do you think they'll accept any Order members who might suddenly want ot switch sides?

nevillesgirl, don't worry about bringing up Snape, it's perfectly ok)) We don't want to force anyone into discussing or avoiding a specific topic. That was just a small request, since we've discussed Snape so many times before and we don't go over the same conversations too many times. Anyway, in the future, if you want to propose a topic and don't know if it has already been debated, you can always check theShrieking Shack for the list of our previous conversations. And if you have any questions, feel free to PM any one of our Mooop team Anyway, welcome to the cause!

One more announcement: You probably know that Mooop Week is coming soon, and it's time to celebrate! We're hoping to gather as many members as possibly for this event, and we need your help to do it. All you have to do is put a Mooop Week banner in your signature! Besides doing a good deed, you'll be rewarded with a few competition points, increasing your chances of winning our competition If you want to participate, just PM me or any other Mooop team member to get the code for the banner If you wish to install the banner yourself, please don't forget to put in the link)

bluezz- In respons to the question would the Death Eaters accept someone from the Order who wants to switch side?...

I think the DEs don't even truly accept each other seeing as they are always so suspicious of one another and worried about which one is Voldemorts favorite of the week. So, I feel honestly that the Death Eaters would use the former Order member until they felt his usefulness had been exhausted then most likely they would dispose of that person. Does that make any sense? Besides, I can't really think of anyone who is in the Order who would willingly switch sides. They all know pretty much first hand what kind of damage Lord Voldemort condones. Good Question.

That's a good point nevillesgirl. The death eaters don't truly trust anybody. With them, it's just a matter if Voldy accepts them or not. And I personally think that as long as he can be convinced that they aren't going to spy on him, which would be as simple as planting a false memory in your brain so it looks like your mad at the order, he'll think you truly wanna be on his side and accept you. And then, what can the other death eaters do about it?

Interesting thread. . .
Okay I am new here and it appeares that the topic at the moment is our thoughts on Snape and Draco and I would like to share mine with you all. . .although mine a somewhat similar to what has already been said.

Draco
My thoughts about Draco are very much like mother's

I complety agree with this staement. I think Draco is to full of pride and of himself that he fails to really realize what he is being asked to do in the sixth book. His pride and his thrist to prove himself overtake him I think and he is blinded by the deed without actually thinking it through about what he is being asked to do. I says he can handle it but I don't (and never have) think he can. He is simply been driven my pride and of a thrist to prove himself to others such as his father and the Dark Lord but I belive that inside he is trapped and lost if you like.

Snape
From the moment I first ever read about Snape my mind told me, this guy is good. And my reasons for my thoughts are gut insict and for the same reasons that nevillesgirl posted. Plus I feel there is no real true reason why Snape would be on the evil side. His parents were horribel to him so evidence suggests so Snape would probaly want to be anything but like them or maybe the evilness of his parents was enough to push him over to that side but I don't think so. Plus another reason why Snape isn't evil is that back at school James Potter saved his life, Sirius told Snape to go to the Shericking Shack but James saved Snape from going into the Shericking Shack were Lupin was transforming, he saved Snape's life and Snape knows that. So surely he is in debut to James and since James is dead perhaps he vowed to himself to look out for Harry but no matter what he can not hide the hate he stills feels for James, simply a school boy grugde that Snape can not let go and he never will. I have (and always will, unless I am proved wrong in the next book) belived that Snape is a good man, he is just simply hated and misunderstood.

Oh I see there is a question. . .
would the Death Eaters accept someone from the Order who wants to switch side?
A good question. I think that Death Eaters would not accept someone from the Order but like others have said, it would not be their choice, the Dark Lord would decide whether or not they can be trusted. It would take a lot to convice the Dark Lord I am sure, after all loyalites are strong and I don't belive can be easy changed. I don't think though that a memeber of the order would swich side unless of course they sewicthed because the Dark Lord hexed them into it (I mean the controlling curse, can't remember the name) but I think if the Dark Lord wanted information then he would send his Death Eaters to do it or torture a memeber of the order to get it but I don't think anyone would give anything awy I truly think that they would rather die then betray the Order and their freinds.

I shall add a link in my signature to this thread in a matter of moments after posting this

EDIT: I have added a link to this amazing thread in my signature now