Between Fawkes and the Order, the phoenix has developed to play a HUGE role within the past few books. With the final two books of the series on the way, it's time that we examine its role in the series.

FIRST, THE POWERS OF THE PHOENIX:
1) Bursts into flame when it is time for it to die, then is reborn from its ashes.
2) Capable of carrying immensely heavy loads.
3) Tears have healing powers.
4) Highly faithful pet.

Bearing these qualities in mind, I have traced what I consider to be the most significant mentions of the phoenix throughout the series.

1) The phoenix first is mentioned in "Chamber of Secrets." Harry goes into Dumbledore's office because he has been witnessed near the scene of Justin Finch-Fletchley's petrification. He is very nervous, but the sight of the phoenix mesmerizes him. Harry is shocked when Fawkes bursts into flame, thinking him to be an ordinary bird. Dumbledore enters and explains all the properties of the phoenix to Harry.
2) At the end of "Chamber of Secrets," Fawkes carries the Sorting Hat into the Chamber of Secrets where Harry is having his confrontation with Tom Riddle. In this scene, Fawkes uses all of his properties and then some to save Harry. He comes when Harry shows loyalty to Dumbledore, blinds the Basilisk, cries on Harry's wound to save his life, and carries Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Lockhart out of the Chamber of Secrets.

During "Chamber of Secrets," the reader is mainly introduced to Fawkes and his powers. Fawkes never bursts into flame in the heat of the action or any of that good stuff. However, he proves to be a symbol of hope for Harry, as well as a reminder of Dumbledore. When Harry hears the phoenix song, he immediately feels more secure and capable of taking on Riddle.

The phoenix is mysteriously absent from "Prisoner of Azkaban," but then again, Voldemort is basically absent as well.

3) In "Goblet of Fire," Fawkes never actually enters the graveyard where Harry is chained to Tom Riddle's grave. However, during the Priori Incantato scene, Harry finds himself "speaking" with music that reminds him of phoenix song, and states that the music gives him a "fortified" and hopeful feeling, which leaves him better able to cope with Voldemort and the Death Eaters.
4) Fawkes heals Harry's injured leg back in Dumbledore's office at the end of the graveyard scene in "Goblet of Fire."

By this point, Harry has mentally established the association between "phoenix song" and "hope." In "Chamber of Secrets," he was just glad to see another being in the Chamber besides himself, Riddle, the Basilisk, and unconscious Ginny. By "Goblet of Fire," he is distinctly correlation phoenix song with hope even though a phoenix is not physically present in the graveyard. The fact that Fawkes heals Harry's leg is almost incidental to the phoenix symbolism that I am attempting to trace; Harry already knew of this property of the phoenix before "Goblet of Fire" began.

*** WARNING: "ORDER OF THE PHOENIX" SPOILERS AHEAD! ***

5) "Order of the Phoenix" -- this is where the major phoenix symbolism comes in. To start, the name of the anti-Voldemort group: the Order of the Phoenix.
6) At the end of "Order of the Phoenix" when Dumbledore and Voldemort are having their duel at the Ministry of Magic, Fawkes flies in front of Dumbledore and swallows an Avada Kedavra curse, thus saving Dumbledore. Fawkes bursts into flame and is reborn on the floor.

At this point, we begin to consider the other property of the phoenix. In addition to carrying heavy loads, having healing powers, and being faithful, the phoenix is able to burst into flame and die and then be reborn. In other words, the phoenix dies for new life to be born. This is exactly what the Order of the Phoenix does as well. As Sirius told Harry, Ron, Fred, George, and Ginny, "there are things worth dying for." The members of the Order of the Phoenix have gone into service aware of the possibility of death, but they have done so to preserve lives that otherwise could have been lost to Voldemort. Fawkes also gave one of his incarnations in order to save Dumbledore's life. Therefore, we can now see that in addition to being a symbol of hope, the phoenix is also a symbol of self-sacrifice.

TO SUM UP: The phoenix is a symbol of hope and self-sacrifice.

THE IMPLICATIONS:
If all of this logic proves to be correct, I believe that Dumbledore is bound to die. J.K. Rowling stated that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix (see Edinburgh Book Festival Question and Answer session) "for reasons that are quite obvious." A patronus represents a person's inner personality traits in the form of an animal. Therefore, if a phoenix represents hope and self-sacrifice for new life, Dumbledore is the phoenix and Harry is the new life (as we know from the end of "Order of the Phoenix" how important Harry is to Dumbledore). This means that Dumbledore will provide hope for Harry, which he already has (among other examples, Harry felt a new sense of hope when he saw Dumbledore arrive at the Department of Mysteries). It also means that Dumbledore will sacrifice his life to save Harry's. Similarly, other members of the Order of the Phoenix are going to die (this is obvious for reasons other than the phoenix symbolism). Sirius has already died, and he is not going to be the last to go.

So now I'm wondering... is there any way that phoenixes can be killed? In my view, if a phoenix could be killed, Voldemort would prevail. This is because the phoenix's first incarnation (Dumbledore and the generation of the Order) would die and then the second incarnation (Harry and the generation of the D.A.) would die and never be reborn in the next generation (which would be their offspring). And if all those people die, Voldemort will inevitably live.

Any ideas?

We have seen that phoenixes burst into flame and are reborn when they are due to die - no matter what the causes of death are. In Chamber of Secrets, we see Fawkes die of old age. Then, in Order of the Phoenix, Fawkes dies because of an Avada Kedavra, which is obviously not a natural cause. I don't think there is a way to kill a phoenix, because no matter what you try, it will always be reborn from its ashes. Phoenixes sacrifice themselves for new life.

Voldemort is the opposite of a phoenix. He takes others' lives and only tries to create/improve one: his own. Phoenix song also seems to scare him, while it gives Harry hope. Phoenixes are a symbol for life, rebirth, hope, self-sacrifice - everything that the Order of the Phoenix works for (hence the name), and everything that Voldemort works against. It is only logical that Harry would take comfort in the phoenix song, while Voldemort would be worried by it (although I'm not sure that Voldemort hears the phoenix song in Goblet of Fire).

Something else that interests me: of all the members of the Order, Lily seems to be most like a phoenix. She gave her life so that Harry could live on, much as a phoenix gives its life so that a new life can be born.

order: An organization of people united by a common fraternal bond or social aim.

This is the definition most commonly thought of when describing the Order of the Phoenix: it is a group of poeple with a common goal: to defeat Voldemort.

Another definition of "order," however, has to do with a sequence of evnets - what if the "order of the phoenix" means the sequence of events in a phoenix's life cycle. It dies, and then a new phoenix is reborn from its ashes. This is essentially what happens with the Order: members of the Order die, but their ideas and goals live on in a new generation. So logic would tell you that even if Harry's generation dies, their ideas will live on in a younger generation...the phoenix will never die.

*** WARNING: "ORDER OF THE PHOENIX" SPOILERS AHEAD! READ AT YOUR PERIL! ***

Sally-Anne Perks -- First of all, what happened to you? I distinctly remember seeing you at the Sorting -- did you sleep in the day of the Charms O.W.L. or something? I guess I'll take that to a different thread...

Back to the subject, I'm glad that you agree with my theory, and your secondary definition of "order" was an interesting twist to my idea. Also, I think you're right that Lily Potter is currently the biggest "phoenix" of them all, and my prediction is that Dumbledore will eventually go her route.

I suppose that it is true that a phoenix's life is a neverending cycle, but this is the part where my analogy (First phoenix incarnation : Dumbledore and Order of the Phoenix :: Second phoenix incarnation : Harry and D.A.) runs short. What if Voldemort comes along and kills Dumbledore, Harry, and the others before Harry's generation has a chance to reproduce? (I know that sounds weird, but that's the whole idea of phoenix incarnations representing generations.) I suppose that Voldemort is not in a position to kill off the whole world as of yet, and Dumbledore and Harry's ideas can figuratively "live on" in those affected by their deaths. (And even if the people closest to Dumbledore and Harry were to be killed as well, i.e., the Order of the Phoenix and the D.A., Euan Abercrombie and the other "ickle firsties" could take up the slack for their fellow Gryffindors.)

Okay, while writing this all out I've figured that you're right -- the phoenix can never die, meaning that Voldemort will never triumph (assuming that we don't bring in the nasty complications of the prophecy, i.e., Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort).

Now the question is.... how was Fawkes's very first incarnation born?

First of all, I actually started a thread about Sally-Anne Perks disappearing - it's called "Missing Character," and it's in the Book Five Discussion section.

What I meant by their ideas and goals living on in the next generation is that younger people - not necessarily their children - will continue the Order, or at least the ideas of the Order. You can support someone's thoughts even if you aren't related to them. So you're right - if we completely disregard the prophecy, Voldemort can't triumph because phoenixes can never die. However, with the prophecy, it all gets complicated. I guess what it comes down to is that Harry has to kill Voldemort.

Do you think that the dark side follows some sort of phoenix cycle as well? No matter what happens, there always seems to be a new Dark Lord. There was Grindelwald, who Dumbledore defeated. Then, a few years later, Voldemort emerged as the new Dark Lord. It seems that they also spread their ideas to new generations. However, they would be sort of like anti-phoenixes: they live to end other lives, and, as Ernie Macmillan said, they wouldn't want another Dark Lord competing with them, whereas the "good side" wouldn't care if there were multiple powerful leaders on their side, as long as they shared common goals.

Note to Anthony Goldstein and Sally-Anne Perks: Are you guys the same person? Or siblings that share the same computer...? You guys have the same IP addresses o_o;;

Anyway, I agree with your points about the phoenix having a lot of symbolism and representation in the series. Perticularly about the cycle of the good and evil. Doesn't it balance then? We will always have evil in the world, but there is good to balance it out. Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, and now Voldemort will eventually be defeated by Harry (with the help from the Order). The next evil being could be someone from the Death Eaters (or their offspring, DRACO! ahhh, forget I mentioned that) who will be defeated by some other offspring from the DA.

I'm guessing that phoenixes can give birth during any stage of their lifetime, since Rowling doesn't say much about the topic, and where else can they come from? Although these are rare birds...hmm they are probably only a few out there...not too sure though.

doomed_renascence, we are not the same person, but we are siblings! Just wondering, though, how did you figure that out?

Same IP addresses = same computer!!! How come you managed that then, guys?!

Although I can see where doomed was coming from...you both do sound (from your posts, that is!) very similar so it was a pretty good deduction on her part really, wasn't it?!

You guys really do get along more than most supposed strangers of each other. Plus, you guys post right after each other (most of the time). And yeah, you guys sound somewhat similar.

that is just weird......
anyways back to the subject i think that fawkes was introdued to the story line for a reason....

maybe it symbolizes that once harry gets stronger listening to that song the weaker voldy gets......so......maybe it couls foreshadow something.....

i just hope so...

All this talk about the phoenix being related to the theme of self- sacrifice has gotten me thinking... especially with regards to how the firs incarnation of a phoenix is born.... do you think maybe it could have something to do with one wizard sacrificing him/herself (you know who I'm talking about) to save someone else???? Perhaps that act of goodness is what 'creates' a new phoenix.
(note: I'm not necessarily suggesting that the phoenix actually is that person, just that the phoenix is born as a result of their sacrifice).

From a general point of view the Phoenix is related to imortality, fire and rebirth. Self-scrifice, loyalty, freinship and perhaps love are more in th JK world... and for the power of the phoenix for my part they where tools use for the history of HP.

Here are a few historical definitions (Arabian being the most popular):

Egypt: longing for immortality and creation, sacred bird of Heliopolis!

Arabian: Melodious cry, very long lived from 500 to 12994 year, they tooke 3 days before rising from there ash!

Chinese: Virtue, grace, power and prosperity.

Japanese: Sun, justice, fidelity and obedience.

WARNING: HBP SPOILERS AHEAD!

Wow, I'm glad to see that this topic is finally seeing the light of day once more! And with such insightful comments, too!

It took me a long time to read these long posts, but I have to say that I agree with all the theories being expressed. I believe that the phoenix is immortal because, like mentioned before, Fawkes did swallow the Avada Kedavra curse and was reborned. I do, however, like the symbolism between he phoenix and Dumbledore/Harry.

Dumbledore's patronus was a phoenix, so that could, in teory, give him the same qualities as a phoenix. When Harry saw the "phoenix" rise from the flames when Dumbledore's body caught on fire, Dumbledore, I believe, was reborned. But, I don't think that he was reborn like a real phoenix, perhaps, the spirit will eventually reside in Harry, considering Fawkes will play a big role later on.

I had another long thought, but I seem to have had a brain fart and cannot remember. But if I do, I will post it later.

phoenixes are one of my favorite magaical creatures. for me phoenix symbolizes new life. and as what the others said, phoenixes are immortal, they die but there'll be a new one. therefore, a phoenix's life is eternal. we all know that fawkes is dumbledore's phoenix. well, i was thinking if there lives are connected to each other. if phoenixes are immortal, probably dumbledore will forever live! but in relation to book six, (i won't exactly mention what happened for the sake of others who haven't read book 6) i think dumbledore will come back probably in book 7. since fawkes also gone then they could be just in some other place....

Well one thing that we know is that if DD patronus and animagus are Pheonix, it possible that the change could be permanent, for the animagus that is... (mention in the PoA)

So imagin that DD would have comited himself to that form so he could come back to help HP? But it mus be clear that you are only a copy, incomplet in what isimporant until the time that you commit...

Hmm... I'm not sure that I entirely understand what you mean, RABH. Are you saying that the phoenix that flew out of Dumbledore's tomb was actually Dumbledore, permanently stuck in his Animagus form?

If that's what you mean, I have to disagree there - I think Dumbledore is completely dead, not hiding, not in his Animagus form, not using a Time-Turner to come back to life, etc. The spell that he cast on Harry in the tower wouldn't have broken if he hadn't died, and at any rate, as in the case of Sirius's death, Dumbledore coming back to life would defeat the thematic purpose of having the death in the first place. Also, I thought that the "phoenix" that flew out of the tomb was merely smoke billowing in the shape of a phoenix. Perhaps I'm wrong there - I've seen others trying to take the extremely literal interpretation, that a new phoenix was actually born in that scene.

No... Dumbledore is not going to help Harry in his physical form. I simply believe that the appearance of the phoenix at the end of the book indicates that his ideals will survive in the minds and hearts of Harry's generation (the symbolic second incarnation of the phoenix). As long as these ideals never metaphorically die (which they won't, because the phoenix, symbolic of the ideals, can never die), the Dark Side can never triumph

Therefore, Harry will live, reborn from Dumbledore's ashes (i.e. Dumbledore's, his parents', and Sirius's deaths motivate him to continue the struggle against Voldemort - see Dumbledore's explanation of why the prophecy must hold true in HBP).

i recon that they cut out so much really good stuff in the 4th movie like the quidditch world cup that was a let down

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