weel now that dumbledore is dead what happens to grimauld place?? will it still be used will someone be the new secret keeper or no on knows how to do that except dumbledore who is dead well i was thinking of that maybe the order will disolve because there is no more headquarters nore leader i dont know about you guys but it would be horible3 to have no order

That a good question. Wormtail is still alive but the Potters are dead so I think that spell is broken. That's why muggles could swarm the place. Here we have the secret intact but the secret keeper dead.

Prof. Flitwick said, in PoA, that the fidlius charm was " An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul." As DD is dead I quess the charm is broken. A new one may have already been made however.

i dont think the Order is going to or using grimauld place because when Sirius died Dumbledore didnt know who the house would pass to (Bellatrix or Harry) so he moved HQ. I dont think JK told us where to. Now he has passed I suppose the Order will decide whos going to be the next secret keeper, therefore another spell/charm.

x-nat-x

i don't think the order will dissolve they will find a new leader maybe mcgonagall or lupin or anybody in the order.

and i think they can also use grimmauld place as headquarters it's harry's and he will give it to them.

But would the Order risk it?? since Bellatrix knows the house?



Mod Edit: Short posts are not allowed on the forums. Take a swing by the rules please.

Actually JKR said this on her website in response to a similar question of the fate of the secret keepers' secret after they are dead. She clarified that the secret would die with them and only those who were informed of the secret by the keepr prior to his/her death would know of it, but they would nto be able to tell anyone else about it. So the people who are aware of the location of Number 12 Grimauld Place continue to do so, but they cannot pass on the location to some one who was not personally informed by Dumbeldore. This is interesting because though Snape knows of the location, he cannot pass on the information to Voldemort or his death eaters. For that matter neither can Harry pass it on to Neville and Luna, both of whom are unaware of the place. But does this restriction apply to house-elves is a different matter.

JKR verse has a lot of grey areas like these that are open to interpretation. I guess, if she decides to come out with that tenth book of hers describing all these magical fundamentals, maybe then we'll have a greater insigh nto those (10 includes 6+1 HP books + Fantastic Beasts + Quidditch through the ages + hypothetical book of magic)

well thats good thinking but what about godric's hollow harry knows it is there because dumbledore told him but did wormtail tell dumbledore and even if he told dumbledore dd could not have told harry and there fore harry would not know about godric's hollow

I think Grimmauld Place was a good place for the Order to plan things out, but now they have advanced beyond the deliberation stage they are probably going to be out fighting more than just sitting in the house, I don't think the house will really be of a significant importance to the Order anymore.

Well that's a very good point you make there. All that I can think of in response to that are two-threee aspects

1. Harry himself lived in Godrics Hollow, so maybe the secret was somehow not a secret to him, but buried somewhere in his memories, since he could hear his mother and Voldemort on that fateful night in his mind. But then he should have been able to mention it to Ron and Hermione unless being a resident makes you override all those.

2. Dumbledore cast the fidelius so in essence may have been a kind of a co-secret keeper along with peter. Another exception for the caster

3. The house was completely destryoyed and with the destruction of the property under Fidelius, maybe the charm itself fades out. That could explain all knowing about it in minutes

But I agree that most of these are conjectures. JKR has a lot of explaining to do, she's left too much unexplained. Hopefully she'll come out with a book describing in detail the magical aspects of Harry Potter universe. Things such as spells, enchantments, fidelius etc.

well youre third explication is the best reply to that topic and it is well thought but are you sure it is detroyed it was never said we dont know for sur maybe it is just abandoned because when lord voldemort killed harrys parents and attacked harry i dont think he had enough strength to destroy the house after

Actually Hagrid says this in Sorcerer's stone, in reply to a Dumbledore question

""No, sir -- house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right
before the Muggles started swarmin' around."

From this, I can imagine that the fidelius charm must have collapsed because as Hagrid said, muggles had started converging there and that would be only possible if there was no fidelius over there.

well youre completely right i cant say anything else on that topic

Wait
didnt dumbledore say in one of the books, i cant remember which it was now, that if the secret keeper dies, the secret dies with them
so does that mean that no new members may join the order as the only person who may reveal the secret of the order is dumbledore
Sorry if this doesnt make any sense
but i know what i mean, if taht counts. =P

Well,same thing for Godrics Hollow.What happened to it?Who's looking after it?Maybe someone like Frank Brice who looked after the Riddle House?Maybe one of Sirius's relitives(Tonks,Malfoys,Bellatrix...)will take over it and,like,own it.

They can have more members of the order but they will never go to 12 GP. I suppose you could change the headquarters. LV will never be able to ge there but Snape can. Even so, right now it seems the safest place the Order has. Hogwarts is a sieve.

Here's another thought for you: how could Dumbledore have cast the Fidelius charm without knowing who the Secret Keeper was?

If Dumbledore had known that Lily and James had switched to Peter Pettigrew, how could Dumbledore not have known that Sirius ws innocent of the treachery that had led to James' and Lily's deaths?

It seems that Dumbledore knew far more than anyone, but he did not know the identity of the spy that had been feeding information to Voldemort. He did nothing to exonerate Sirius, whereas he went to great lengths to exonerate Snape. Would he not have spoken up in Sirius' defence if he had known that Peter had been the Secret Keeper?

There are other inconsistencies in the story of Godric Hollow's Fidelius charm. How were the Muggles able to see the ruins, how did Hagrid find Harry?

I know this is all about Godric's Hollow instead of Grimmauld Place but the Fidelius had been in operation at both properties, and there are inconsistencies in both cases.

As far as the Order not being able to use 12 Grimmauld Place as its headquarters, I think the logic is a bit fuzzy. Sirius wasn't allowed out of the house and so he couldn't tell anyone could he? That's why DD had to be Secret Keeper. But now that Sirius is dead, the house is Harry's, and I don't believe that he will forever be unable to tell anyone where his house is. That just doesn't make sense. And it works for the Potters too. They needed a secret keeper because they weren't going to be telling people where they lived and they didn't want just anyone else doing it either, so they entrusted that to just one person.
And what if when DD said that when the secret keeper died the secret died, he meant that it ceased to be a secret, not that it would remain a secret. Does any of this make sense?

That is exactly one of the infuriating things about the conflicting information we have about the way Fidelius works.

On the one hand we have the "canon evidence", that is, what happened as told in the books. On the other we have evidence that is "supercanon", coming out of the mouth of the writer herself. Based on this, I find it difficult to come up with a unified theory on how the Fidelius works.

We have to allow for the possibility that the writer is not perfect and does sometimes contradict herself. This is hard, because in other aspects the series is so wonderfully coherent. Could there be a missing piece of information that will be revealed in Book 7? Or should we take everything that has been as equally valid fact without any further elaborations?

It seems to me that one should not attempt to look too deeply into the workings of JKR's magic; after all, the main theme of the books is not magic, but ...

friendship,
love,
compassion ...

I agree with this that Number 12 Grimmauld Place will no longer be used by the Order, especially since they now no longer trust Snape, who knows where it is. Even if the theory is true that the secret of N12GP's location died with Dumbledore--which, I think, would mean that no one else could ever tell/reveal the secret (thus Snape couldn't run off and tell LV), he could still go there himself and cause damage (that is, if he truly is bad.)

This also brings up another question I have. Okay, Snape knows the secret of N12GP's location, which means he can go there but he can't tell anyone the secret. But, can Snape go there, and simply have people (i.e. other death eaters) follow him there without actually telling them? This could be a possible loophole in getting around the Fidelus charm, because he could show someone the secret place, without having to tell them the secret. Any thoughts?

But either way, I don't think the Order will use N12GP anymore, just to avoid any of these possible risks, and will probably spend most of their time taking action now rather than planning. The only way I think it may be involved is if Harry has to go there to find a horcrux or get clues/information or something.

DD went to a lot of trouble at the start of HBP to make sure they could use it so I expect they will.

If you could lead people into the secret location, the charm wouldn't be of much use. There must be something about the spell that prevents that.

The difference between GH and #12 may be in the nature of the secret. #12 being the HQ of the order is still a secret but the Potters are dead. The fact they are hiding in GH is no longer a secret. In the first case, the secret keeper died. In the second, the secret died.

I agree that this series of books is wonderfully coherent. And that's with all of us looking for holes.

I agree with GardenToad, DD went through a lot to be sure that #12 would be usable. PERHAPS, as the "official" new owner, Harry knows where it is now. Remember, the test was to see if ownership had really passed to Harry, and it had.

You can't allow someone to follow you to the secret place because in essence, your telling them where it is, you're just not using words.

There is one good point, that mayfair originally brought up, that Sanpe knows about it. Personally, that's not a problem for me as I think Snape is on the Order's side (and this is not the place to debate that) but I'm sure that the other Wizards in the Order could come up with some anti-Snape individual spells to keep him out. It wouldn't be a problem because if you could keep him out, and he can't tell anyone where it is, then the point of worry is moot.

I think that logicly they will apoint a new secret keeper and move on. They don't need to spend any more time dwelling on tragites of the past they need to get the order together and fight.

IF Snape is on the orders side AND can convince the members of that, then #12 would be a great place for Snape to pass them information. It's got every protection that can be put on a building and he's the only DE who can see it.

If he's on LVs side, someone will have to guard the door but it still seems reasonably safe.

I was reading JKR's site asnd the current poll question is about this very subject. She says:

"When a secret keeper dies the secret dies with them, or, to put it an other way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everyone in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else."

Then in the same answer she says:

"Thenceforth nobody else - not even the subjects of the secret themselves - can divulge the secret."

So that means that 12 Grimauld Place's secret will be safe for all time. But I was wondering can the secret keeper pass on the enchantment when he/she dies if they so wish in a will or with a spell?

someone asked, if snape were to bring someone to number 12 grimmauld place, if that was a loophole, it couldnt be, because in OotP harry was brought by mad eye, tonks and others, but he had to be given a piece of paper on which had been written the location of the OotP. However, since nothing happened to that paper, and DD wrote that paper before he died, could that be used to admit more people into the house???

Good question, psychoticinferno, as long as someone kept the paper... but I think that's unlikely... it's not the kind of thing you want hanging around in case the holder gets caught or looses it.

Also, it could have been that the only reason that they were able to show Harry the paper was because DD had requested that they do. It kind of goes along with the thought that I had about not being able to lead someone to the place by letting them follow you. You are essentially telling them without saying the words. Letting them read a paper that was meant for someone else is telling them without saying the words.

What if... DD knew what was coming and appointed a new secret keeper. What if Harry is the new secret keeper since the house was found to be officially his after the "Kreacher test?" If you believe that Snape is on the Order's side and in the conspiracy theory that DD told Snape to kill him if it became necessary, then Snape might be the new secret keeper.

With regards the paper that was show to Harry by Mad Eye and Lupin, it says in OotP that Mad Eye burnt it after Harry had finished reading it, so i couldn't be passed on to anyone else. Also, Harry had to think about what was said before the house became visable to him, so this might go against the idea that people could follow him. But why was Mad Eye still so secretive? Maybe it was just Mad Eye being himself again.

One question about this, the paper said 'the order of the pheonix can be found at number 12 Grimwald Place'. So what if someone went looking for Harry there and not the order, would that still be hidden, it seems a little vague to me how exactly it works. Maybe when anyone is inside number 12, they are considered to be in the order of the pheonix HQ and therefore are hidden too.

Ok I am probably so wrong here..but wasn't there a part in HPB that said Harry inherited Gimmauld place from Sirius?? I swear I read that....If so doesn't that mean Harry is now in control of the house...Perhaps it will be revealed that the spell's details will be passed on to him somehow..like that DD anticipated that he might die and so took all necessary precautions? Even if the paper was destryoed..Surely DD had something else set up elsewhere...

Yes, Harry inherited the house, and he inherited Kreacher too... but this doesn't make him the Secret-Keeper of Dumbledore's Fidelius charm.

Harry did inherit all the other protection charms that the house had, however; these were designed to benefit all rightful owners of the house.

I just had a very comical thought...

Harry owns the house. If he survives and ever marries, he can't tell his wife where the house is. If it's Ginny, that's OK, she knows, but their kids could never walk home from school or have friends over...

OK, I think I'm too tired to be here!

Got too lazy to read the replies... but why do I have the odd feeling that Snape knows the secret or however it works? Him and Dumbledore were rather close, and he trusted Snape so much that it'd be likely he'd disclose that information to him, and probably McGonagall.

Still unsure about Snape though, which is funny, you'd think he'd be less difficult to solve after the whole obvious attack on his "mentor."

remember in the 6th book when harry over hears dumbledore and snape talking and snape saying something along the lines of "no, I can't"? I think possibly dumbledore was asking snape to be the new secret keeper. If not that then maybe he was telling snape that "if the time comes, please kill me" or something like that.

I dunno, lol, I'm just going with my opinion/thoughts, lol, what ever comes to my mind, even if it doesnt make sense.

Hi there potter fans!

On the subject of 12 grimmauld place being used, I don't think it will be for OOTP headquarters no longer.But both harry and snape know where the location is (albeit can't tell no-one else as dumbledore was secret keeper & secret died with him).

As one of the horcruxes is in there (remember in OOTP book 5, when harry & weasleys cleaning 12GP they came across a locket no-one could open). And both harry and snape know 12GP location, what if voldermort tell snape about his horcruxes and snape goes to 12GP to retreive it for him? (depends on who you believe snape sides with I suppose).

Also I believe the secret on godrics hollow has lifted, as harry TOLD ron and hermione in HBP that he's going there 'back where it all started' to visit his parents graves.And now that the potters are dead there is no secret to keep, for location of godrics hollow.

Just a couple of thoughts of mine. any comments?

They will have to be careful of Snape coming to #12 but it might be a good place for a trap if he's foolish enough to show his face.

It may be off topic but I don't believe RAB is Sirius. Harry has seen the locket at #12 and Slytherin's and he hasn't noticed they are the same. Some people speculate that Alberforth is RAB and Mundingus stole the locket and sold it to him in Hogsmead. You should check the RAB thread. We don't even know for sure the original horcrux in the cave was a locket.

Snape may try to go back there and convince the Order that he is on their side but I don't know who would believe that. Even if he really is on Harry's side, he have to operate on the theory that no one will believe him.

That is interesting...... I wonder if they will keep usig it as HQ. Will the Order fall apart? ooooh sumthing to ponder.

Whe the secret keeper dies, the status of the place at the moment of their death, is how the place shall stay.

Eg. The only one's to know about Grimauld place when DD died, they'll be the only ones to EVER know.

I read it on JKR's website under FAQ.

i think mad-eye might become the new leader and as for secret keeper probably one of the Weselys(sp) or tonks maybe im not sure

Well dumbledore didnt tell anyone where it was hidden,so none of the Death Eaters or so will know about it.But as a Secret Keeper,i'd think Kingsley Shackelbolt (or watever his last name is) due to the fact that he's an Auror.But that might not be the Headquaters any more,but I think that Harry will have to go back there for some reason.

Well I think that they will use the same head quarters for the Order of the Pheonix. They are already set up there. It's also really secretive.But how could they say all the stuff they say when they're pictures of sirius's mother there to hear everything?

Well, on the theory that DD ordered Snape to kill him, DD would've known he was going to die and organised for someone else to be the secret-keeper wouldn't he?

But if the slip of paper which had DD's writing on it is still there, then people just need to read that and they can get in can't they?

No, because DD destroyed the piece of paper, remember, it went up in flames. That was done to prevent anyone else getting in.

i think whoever was highest up in the order besides dumbledore will be made the secret keeper

I'll bet that they just change the headquarters to somewhere else. The order needs new members to fight against Voldemort very badly. With the few left, the Order stands no chance at winning this war. I'm thinking a new place that we haven't heard about yet, and they'll probably get another secret keeper too. I'm thinking that the leader of it will be someone lyk Lupin, Mcgonagal, or Mad-Eye Moody.

They can't use the place anyways, since although Harry owned it, the house refused to allow them in since I don't think the house accepted Harry as Sirius' heir. Snape knows about it, although he can't speak it's name or something like that since he's not the Secret Keeper. I think the Order would want to find a new Secret Keeper for the Order as soon as possible so that their secrets are not spilled to the Dark Lord. Moon(I luv you Luna), I need to look that up, but thank's for mentioning that, that's a nice piece of information. So, that means that they do not need a new Secret Keeper, because it'll always be Dumbledore, which is pretty neat, cause that changes the whole thing about why did Sirius change it, cause if he died, the status would have stayed the same right? Not that he wanted to die, but it wasn't safer was it? I don't know, but yeah, that can change some things. If that isn't the case, cause what if Dumbledore changed the Secret Keeper, because he like Sirius knew that the Dark Lord was after him, and it would have been bright of him to change it, and I hope to the Gods that he didn't make Snape the Secret Keeper! What if he did, that would change everything! Do you know how much danger that could put them in? The Dark Lord is going to know everything from Kreacher and the portraits, and that is a really scary fact. OK, no hyperventilating, but that is a really scary thought. Any one else have any ideas about that? Who did Dumbledore chose to become the next Secret Keeper, if he did change it? I don't want it to be Snape, but all that trust he put into Snape, it seems like that would be something he would do to instill confidence in Snape. I want it to be McGonagall, although I don't think it'll be her, which makes me sad, even though that would be the smarter choice.

~La MaitressedeMort

Ok so the fact that Dumbledore is the Grimwauld place secret keeper has never been ditermined. Even though he is dead we still dont know that he is the secret keeper, personally i think that it is someone we havent heard of before.

Well Grimmauld Place fell in the hands of Harry even before Dumbledore was dead. I’m sure the Order has another headquarters otherwise they would’ve probably broken up before hand. Just because Dumbledore is dead, doesn’t mean that the Order will break up either. They’re bound to have a new leader, maybe no as smart as Dumbledore but someone to guide them. It would be interesting if the leader (Snape?) betrays them and tells of the Order’s secret plans to Voldy.

Firstly, with Kreacher came Grimmauld place so i think it is still HQ. I think the Fidlius Charm has been lifted as the imobilising charm was lifted on Harry when Dumbledore died. The order will have to act quick to ensure that HQ is safe.

There is a possibility, however, that the Fidlius Charm is still in place as Dumbledore has a portrait now. People seem to forget this but i feel that Dumbledore wil still help harry with locating the remaining Horecruxes. Afterall he still has all of his brains.


Erm when did you write this because Snape did betray them, HE KILLED DUMBLEDORE

Good question but I dont think the order will dissolve it cant. I think the death of DD should bring them all together like they know now that they have to be more careful now that DD is gone. So I hope they keep it up. The order needs to be together now more than ever!

After reading this, a thought popped into my head. What if a muggle walks by? Surely they'd think "Where the hell did that house come from?". Look on the un-bright side though, if the house is indeed visible to muggles now, at least we'll know which Dumbledore is dead.

The house is harrys. I'm sure snape could do the charm. But the order abbandoned the house anyway after sirius died so i'm not sure it matters.