As the name implies, this thread will be for the discussion of different aspects of the romantic relationships that many Harry Potter fans "ship." All types of ships are welcome to be discussed here, including the basic "Student" ships (i.e. RW/HG, HP/LL, etc.), "Oldies" ships (i.e. Hagrid/Madame Maxime, SS/MM, etc.), "Slash" ships (i.e. HP/DM, GW/HG, etc.), and "Young/Old" ships (i.e. HG/SS, etc.).

Some aspects to address include, but are certainly not limited to:

• The impact of ships on the readers' vision of canon (does it detract from it, add to the story, etc.).
• The appropriateness of certain ships (i.e. Slash, Young/Old, etc.) in a series originally intended for children.
• The impact that fanfics and fanart involving these ships play on audiences.
• How and why fans take completely non-romantic relationships, run with them, and form full-fledged fanfics (i.e. Harry, a student, and Lupin, his mentor).
• Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen?
• How individual fan interpretations affect shipping.
• Anything else the Duellers of the Great Hall can think of.

What this thread is not intended to do is be a place to ship your favorite couple, or bring up evidence of a particular ship. There are plenty of other threads around the site with such a purpose, so lets try to keep this one unique.

With that, let us begin!

*Squee!*

Mel and I have been waiting on this thread for what seems like forever. I'm so happy to see that is has finally arrived!

Ok, I am thrilled to be the first to tackle a topic in here, and I'm going to start with my favorite: How individual fan interpretations affect shipping.

Now, my example of this will be the Snape/Hermione ship, as it is, and will always be, my favorite.

If you are a lover of all things Snape, as I am, then you will naturally be drawn to a fantasy of Snape leading a normal and happy life. He is human, and a hero, after all, right? So, if you are a fan of his character, then it is only natural to want to see him happy in life, either during, or after the timespan of the series itself.

Hermione appears to be Snape's intellectual equal. Therefore, it is only natural for fans of one or both of them to want to see them together. Hence, our love of Snape, and our desire to see him happy, drives us to place him with the only practical partner in the series: Hermione.


Topic 2: The impact that fanfics and fanart involving these ships play on audiences.

Psssh. Obviously, this is a huge factor, if not the entire reason, that people ship Snape/Hermione. There is little, if any, canon evidence in the series to suggest a relationship between the two characters. This is where fan fiction and fan art come into play.

Before I read my first SS/HG fan fiction (Dream a Little Dream by my good friend Mel /aka/ Snapelover!), I detested this relationship. My main view was "ewww... he's way to old." My views quickly changed after one, well-written, incredible fan fiction. Since then I have read approximately 150 fan fictions starring the infamous would-be couple, and am completely... well, obsessed, really, with their relationship.

The fan art did nothing to hinder my love of the two. There are some simply breathtaking drawings and fan-made romance pictures that I have seen that make me love the couple even more. If it weren't for fan fiction, I can guarrantee you that this ship would never have even crossed my mind.

Next?

Nice topic! Something fun to sink my teeth into. A whole bushel of apples...

Right.

The impact of ships on the readers' vision of cannon (does it detract from it, add to the story, etc.).

Well, I'm of the opinion that it adds to the experience. Shipping happens mostly in fan fiction, that is - probable and improbable shipping. Fan fiction is simply a way to explore the characters further than canon allows. If you'd wonder what would happen if so-and-so came in a certain situation, then fanfic would be a great medium to explore that. The challenge is to keep the characters true to their canon personalities, and if that's done well, fanfic definitely has the ability to enrich one's perception of a character.

So in that sense, shipping can add to the experience. Sorry about using the same example, but it's my favourite ship as well - I know Severus and Hermione won't end up together, but having read about them, and having explored their personalities through shipping, I have a different perception of them that I feel is richer.

I won't comment on ships that are/were probable, because I'll just put my foot in it. SS/HG is nice and safe, thank you very much.

The appropriateness of certain ships (i.e. Slash, Young/Old, etc.) in a series originally intended for children.

Again, fan fiction - if Jo herself put in Snape/Hermione or slash, I'd think it would change the spirit of the books. And I do have to say one thing about SS/HG fan fiction: Hermione has to be of age, otherwise I do have a problem with the the ship - paedophilia isn't exactly my thing. Anyway, I don't have a problem with slash, or adult couples who differ in age. I know it sounds really silly and 21st-century-buzz-wordy, but as long as their happy...

What I mean is, we all have our issues and slightly weird fancies. What makes wanting to marry someone for money any better than wanting to marry someone you love, who is 20 years older than you?

The impact that fanfics and fanart involving these ships play on audiences.

I'd say there's quite a bit of that. Because each fic and each picture is born from some one's own interpretation of the HP world, it opens up that world a fraction to other fans. I've often found that fanfic and fanart illuminate a side of a character that I've never thought about before. The great thing is, the character you're looking at or reading about is already alive in your imagination, so exposure to other fans' ideas simply enriches that mental picture. It sort of colours in details you never thought of. And it's always easy to simply ... ignore it, if you don't like it. That won't be difficult, because if an idea doesn't fit with yours, it feels like a completely different character, so it doesn't affect your own idea. Unless it does anyway... because it's a good idea.

How and why fans take completely non-romantic relationships, run with them, and form full-fledged fanfics (i.e. Harry, a student, and Lupin, his mentor).

Why? I'd say because romantic relationships are so much more interesting than platonic ones. There's more at stake, so the story is simply more intriguing. How is another question. I think it comes down to writing talent, and the level of detail in which the author sees the characters. Less detail - bad fanfic, unconvincing romance. More detail - with the right amount of talent in bringing your imagination to life, the sky is the limit. Or things like bestiality, paedophilia and incest etc... also an excellent set of limits.

Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen?

Theorising in theory - any time! I mean, in terms of compatibility, and the characters emotional needs and what they could offer, I think it could increase one's understanding of characters. Theorising as though it will be canon when it's 'overwhelmingly unlikely' is wasting one's own time. Only one book left to go though, so the gap is closing on this one.

-------------

Though it might seem as though I'm confused as to whether this is a fanfic thread, or a shipping thread - I'm not. It's just that controversial shipping is only worth it in fanfic. It takes way too much energy to try and canonise controversial pairings, because Jo simply won't go there.

Edit: Though, now I come to think of it - has any ships ever been more controversial than Jo's own ones?

The realm of fanfiction has greatly influenced the realm of debate when it comes to shipping. Certain ships (which shall remain nameless) which are not thought of as fanfiction, but serious theories which many of their proponants hold could concievably come to fruition are, in fact, no more than fanfiction themselves. However, it is through the realm of fiction that these theories, without basis in canon, are even made concievable, much less viable.

Compelling stories can insinuate ideas into the minds of the readers which they then, at times, find it difficult to distinguish from what JK Rowling herself wrote. I have read posts from people who, after reading my story "I, Voldemort" were convinced that Voldemort used to torture spiders in his youth, the boundaries of my story blurring with those of JK Rowlings, and perhaps the instance of spider torture in Fake Moody's class being the push that nudged them over that boundary.

Fanfiction has done the same in regards to relationships. Those who read stories which make Draco appear to be a sensible, caring individual find it much easier to believe that he may develope feelings for Ginny Weasley and that she will one day return them. Whereas people who have not read such fictions maintain the character view JK offers us in her text.

Most of these ships are entrenched in the realm of fiction. While their authors and proponants may run full tilt into the wall with them, they do so under the full awareness that they will never come to pass in the actual series which JKR is writing. It is only when the realm of fanfiction bleeds across into the realm of serious theorizing and debate where problems arise and those who have not read, or do not credit, such fanfictions clash with those who have and do.

Hello! these are only thoughts and fragments...hope you don't get confused, but I'm still ill and my head isn't working properly!

I love fanfics and fanart. They give a new richness and add flavour to the experience, giving answers to all the readers' unsatisfied questions and fulfilling all the readers' dreams about the characters.
But, the risk is that fanon affects canon so that people starts to lose the original idea of the character, creating a new one that has little to do with the original. I saw once a fantastic drawing that showed a canon Snape, an ugly, scary man, gothic dressed, hook-nosed, near the fanon Snape, a sexy guy with long ebony locks, sensual mouth, muscular chest and so on. Sometimes fantasy goes a bit beyond. I guess that if the new character is so perfectly outlined in the writer's mind, he/she can really write an original book! because, if a character is really fascinating, it doesn't matter if it's called Snape or ...Colonel Brandon, people will fall for him anyway! (and, as far as I am concerned, I find the canon Snape much more intriguing).

Handling the love matter in children's books is a very delicate task, because you have to put yourself in a child's place and not all adults are able to do it. JKR has done a very good job in this, and although many scream that she put too much romance in her books, that's the real thing. Adolescents have crushes and angst feelings (...if I remember well, it was about 25 years ago)!!
But, in a way they are considered not mature enough, in other ways they are stimulated too much in an adult perspective (look at those magazines for teens which are simply...ridiculous), resulting both in a manipulation of kids' real feelings and sensations.
They understand more than we adults know. They have a deep perception of bonds between people and an extraordinary sensitivity to adults' feelings, free from adult moral restraints, not in the sense that they're immoral, but on the contrary, that their perception of love is PURE, and so is a kiss and a hug.
Nevertheless, we don't live in a society where other kinds of love beyond male-female are accepted, and if in other countries is quite accepted to see a child with two mothers or two fathers, in Italy for example is totally out of the common morals -religious too-, and it wouldn't be allowed to publish large diffusion books for children with such issues in them. Same for o/y ships. These are choices you can make when you come of age. You can be supported by your family but not from society, not openly at least. As long as society will be homophobic, no references to gay relationships in children books will be made.

There are boring romantic ships, and thrilling non-romantic ones. If a fic is well written, it makes you believe in something you didn't considered before...That's the magic of fiction, in general. Of course, when feelings are concerned, the story gains a deeper dimension.

I don't find theorizing a waste of time. I think it's useful, anyway.

Hope I wasn't too messy.

The beauty of fanfiction is that it is not canon. Readers who are content to read only what JK has written concerning the characters may do so. They will not lose any great insights of wisdom into JK's mind. However, they do not explore the realm of thought of other fans. Every reader forms their own mental image of each character. Doubtless, some readers gain greater insight into particular characters than other readers. Creating fanfiction is a good way to display the characters in one reader's mind to another reader.

As of yet, I have not read many fanfictions. I have started reading some of them, only to find the characters as perceived contradict my image of the characters. I have read a few which made me pause to re-evaluate my perception of certain characters. (I, Voldemort being one of these fanfictions.) In these instances, I gain a greater understanding of the character, simply because I begin to think about possibilities I had not previously considered.

It is easy to recognize that many of the ships will never be written by JK. But this does not mean that we need the same perception of the Snape or anyone else that JK does. Yes, she wrote the character. It is the reader who makes the character real. If reading fanfiction and viewing fanart influences the perception of a character, it can only be for better and deeper understanding. Otherwise, the ideas presented in the fanfiction are disregarded.

Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen?

Hmm... well, I suppose that particular conclusion is up to the individual answering the question.

Is it worth debating all trio ships that are overwhelmingly likely to happen? Honestly, what JKR wants, JKR gets, because she is the author of the books. If she wants Ron and Hermione together, Ron and Hermione will be together.

So, with that thought in mind, is it worth debating anything at all about the books? And, if so, why are some subjects more worthy of discussion than others?

I feel that any and all topics are worthy of discussion, if only to the people that wish to dwell on them. Again, I shall reference my favorite ship:

Sure, Severus/Hermione is an unlikely, if non-existent, possibility. (I wholeheartedly acknowledge that this ship will not happen in the canon series. I still love it ). But why should our imaginations be confined to the works of a single human being?

JKR has given us the fuel to spurn a whole new universe to life. Her books may be limited to her ideas, but our own imaginations reach light years beyond what she is willing to write. If we wish to discuss the similarities between to characters, and the likelihood of said characters developing a romantic relationship in an alternate setting, then I say let us go for it!

That is the whole point behind reading fiction, right? To imagine the imaginable?

How individual fan interpretations affect shipping.

Instead of discussing this topic, I would like to know what you think about a closely related subject, How does individual fan shipping affect interpretations? Does the ship we support influence or change the reader's perception of particular characters? If so, to what degree?

We seem to discuss the Snape/Hermione ship a bit in this forum, so I will use this as my example. Many who support the Snape/Hermione ship acknoweldge that it is likely that it will never appear in canon. Even so, does this change the supporter's perception of the canon character?



Using this quote as a reference (I hope you don't mind), we can see that at least one supporter of the Snape/Hermione ship feels that Snape deserves to be happy with a practical partner. Given the past actions by Snape (regardless of motive), does he deserve anything?

Supporters of the ship are might say yes. Non-supporters of the ship may say no. But, is the answer to that question determined by of the canon character presented by JK or by the individual character as imagined by the shipper?

(To answer your question, After the Burial, of course I don't mind! )

Hmm... well, I think that it has to be up to one's imagination. I mean, if we took every little thing that happened in the book at face value, and did no thinking on the matters, then we would say definitively that Snape killed Dumbledore, therefore Snape is evil, and therefore Snape does not deserve to be happy. I think that even non-supporters of Snape would disagree with that bleak analysis. I'm sure that we can all agree that there is more going on there than meets the eye.

The fact of the matter is that Dumbledore trusted Snape... why? Do we really believe that he trusted Snape on the meek information that we have so far? I sure don't. There is way more to the murder of Dumbledore than meets the eye. JKR herself says that Snape "has a redemptive quality to him" and that her readers should "keep an eye on him."

Now, even if Snape is evil at this point, and even if he did kill Dumbledore, is that to say that he is not beyond redemption? Isn't that what Dumbledore wanted, to promote the idea that everyone should be given another chance at leading a life of good?

Now, let me ask you this: if Snape did murder Dumbledore, but repents for his actions and attempts to redeem himself, consequentially siding with the Order, does he then deserve happiness? Should he then be given a chance at the life he never had? Do you think that Hermione would want that for him?

Personally, I believe that Hermione believes in forgiveness, and would therefore do everything in her power to assure that Snape was given the life he never had. I think they go perfectly together, and that Hermione could someday realize that. Any thoughts?

If we look at strictly what is written in canon, we are left with many a "I don't know, yet." Lily, to quote you again



If we took everything at face value, we would not be readers of Harry Potter. After two books any reader should realize things are rarely as they seem. There is always more hidden beneath the surface.

I do think that Snape killed Dumbledore. The writing in canon seems pretty clear on that (to me). Does this mean Snape is evil? I don't know, yet. There is evidence supporting either side. There is evidence that Snape is good. There is also evidence that Snape is evil.

My question is this: Do your personal beliefs on shipping (or fanfiction involving Snape in general) cause you to be absolutely convinced that Snape is good (or evil)? The canon evidence does not provide enough to conclude either with absolute certainty.

Oh wow. What a brilliant question! I really had to sit and think about this one before I answered. I wanted to be as honest as humanly possible.

Well, unfortunately, I think my personal beliefs on shipping do in fact cause me to be absolutely convinced that Snape is good. Like anything else in life, if one wants to believe something strongly enough, one will find a way to convince themselves and those around them that their beliefs are accurate.

I love the Snape/Hermione pairing. The idea that Snape could take on a more human character type does make me want to defend him. I mean, if he can fall in love, and protect his lover, and want to be a husband and a father and show those weaknesses, he must be good, right? Well, that's the idea, anyway...

I love Severus Snape as a character. He is Snarky, tells it like it is, and is the total opposite of our hero, Harry Potter. He is exactly the kind of mysterious man that I want to read about. In fact, I pretty much only read fics about him. I must admit that my love of Snape does make me want to believe he is good. But, isn't that how anything in life is?

How about Christianity? (Yes, I am aware that I am treading on dangerous waters here. I don't care. I am off to prove a point). Have 99.9% of Christians ever actually seen Jesus Christ? Have they spoken to God? Do they have any irrefutable proof whatsoever that such a being even exists? Nope. And, please, don't cite the bible to me. The bible was written by men, not otherworldly beings. Men make things up. Hence fiction novels.

Look, I'm not here to debate religion. I am simply saying that if you want to believe in something badly enough, you find a way to make it true, at least in your own mind.

Though, I am not diverting from my initial views. Even before I was a huge Snape fan, I thought he was innocent. There is a lot of canon evidence (in fact, I just posted in Snape's trial thread) that shows he is most likely good. Then again, there is a lot of canon evidence that shows he could be bad. I guess we will just have to wait until book 7 to know for sure!

There has been lots of discussion of Snape/Hermione already and I will be completely honest I have seen a couple of fanfics but never really understood why people would even consider them as a couple. However, I still dont personally see it, but I now get where you are coming from and where the idea sort of orginated. With the whole Snape/Hermione relationship, we all know JKR would never include something so controversial in her final book, but the fanfics can help to determine in peoples minds, their opinions on Snape before the final book is released (to answer your question After the Burial).

Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen?
Well I think any part of new information adds to the story in some way. By now we all know that JKRs writing technique is that seemingly unimportant things can turn out to be vital at a later stage in the book/series. Also the final book is set to be pretty heavy reading with the horcrux search so she may add a relationship (expected or not) to lighten the mood slightly even if it doesnt effect the plot.

The appropriateness of certain ships (i.e. Slash, Young/Old, etc.) in a series originally intended for children.
Harry Potter is a childrens book so I think it unlikely that there will be any major slash/old-young relationships. It would cause lots of contriversy and perhaps even bad press, which is something JKR doesnt want for her final book.

How individual fan interpretations affect shipping.
As others have said everyone has different views on characters. In my head characters are portrayed completley differently to how you would either see them on screen or talk to someone else about them. I think that it makes shipping more interesting because it opens up new ships which wouldnt have been thought of otherwise.

In the final book, there is unlikley to be any unusual relationships however JKR has left the door open for discussion until the final book is released.

Well, I think that (relation)ships and fan-fics, though related, are different issues.

"Ships" is a broad term, but I'll define my use of it (others can define theirs differently) as being "in favor of a certain relationship forming between characters in works of canon, specifically the Harry Potter books." In other words, if you are a Harry/Hermione "shipper," you are/were in favor of seeing Harry and Hermione developing a relationship in the books.

"Fan Fiction," on the other hand, is a forum for the exploration of relationships that the writer of the fanfic may or may not be in favor of forming in the actual series. For example, a writer may not want to read Jo writing about a homosexual relationship in book 7, but may be interested in exploring how that relationship would develop in a non-canon arena. Because of this, the subject matter of Fan Fiction has more open rules for appropriateness, in my opinion.

However, ships, on the other hand, should be addressed with the best interests of the series as a whole in mind, its overall intentions and its target audience included. For this reason, homosexual and young/old relationships are considered inappropriate for advocation, as they would do disjustice to the aims of the series as a whole.

Fish

Being a supporter of what would probably be considered as the most controversial ships in the series, from Harry/Hermione to Sirius/Remus to Snape/Hermione, I guess it's about time I weighed in on this discussion.

The impact of ships on the readers' vision of cannon (does it detract from it, add to the story, etc.).

It certainly doesn't detract from it. I think it enhances it, adds a whole new dimension. At least for me. Ever since we were little, when my sister and I used to dress up and pretend to be Mary Poppins and Jane Banks, we used to make up stories about what happened to Bert, Mary, Jane and Michael later because we didn't want to believe that the children never saw Mary again. I did the same thing with many other films and books I've liked over the years (and, rather sadly, one or two video games too ) I think millions of people have probably made up stories that are continuations or extentions of canon plots and if anything, they enhance the enjoyment of the books/films. They lead to a greater understanding of the characters, if the fanfics/stories are written bearing canon characterisations in mind, of course. Which are the only sort that I really read...I don't like fanfics where the characters are completely off the wall because it just doesn't feel natural. I know that there are some who like that sort of thing, and great for them, but it's just not for me.

I think the greatest compliment I ever received about the fic I wrote was when a reader told me that after reading it, they really believed that it was possible for Snape to have a sister. That made my day, it really did, because I do try to keep my characters as canon as possible, whilst still having the freedom to expand on what JKR has created. Although obviously not canon, I would like to think that what I'd written complimented the series rather than detracting anything from it, providing an extra dimension for those who would like to know a little bit more about the adult characters than we are allowed to see in the books. I'm sure that's what most fanfic authors are aiming for.

The appropriateness of certain ships (i.e. Slash, Young/Old, etc.) in a series originally intended for children.

I don't think this really needs to be an issue. Whilst the series is aimed at children, there's enough in there to keep adults interested too (though not as much as I first thought, but that's a whole other ballgame ) Adults need an outlet to explore their own ideas too, and there should be a place for them to do that. Obviously, adults will be interested in pushing things a little bit further than might be appropriate for children, but there's nothing wrong with that. Slash is no more inappropriate than real life homosexual relationships. Though it will never be canon, I've always supported Remus/Sirius, and I've read and thoroughly enjoyed Remus/Severus, Harry/Severus, Harry/Draco and Hermione/Bellatrix (rather racy, those ones ). Though I do have to admit, the more wild the couple, like that last one, the harder it is to find a trace of the original canon character! I think that there is a lot of scope for the Remus/Sirius ship whilst keeping the canon characters, and that's again what I tried to do with 'Completion'. I've read a lot of fics that also have very canon characters and still allow for the Slash ship. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Young/Old ships either, though I do prefer Hermione to have left school in the Snape/Hermione ships, simply because I'm a teensy bit uncomfortable with teacher/student relationships. Not that it would stop me a reading a fic though, if it was well written.

How and why fans take completely non-romantic relationships, run with them, and form full-fledged fanfics

I think this is simply because readers see some aspect in something JKR has written that provides the seeds for imagination to grow. Some ideas work, like Harry/Snape, whilst others don't, like Filch/Harry

Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen

Oh yes, definitely! Simply from a literary point of view, if nothing else. Plenty of cases can be made, using canon evidence, for some of the more obscure ships such as Remus/Sirius, Snape/Lily, or Harry/Luna. Even if they are unlikely, cases can be made for why readers support these ideas - they must have seen something in the books that led them to come up with the idea in the first place. It's fun to play with ideas and argue about interpretations. It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong - it just matters that people have fun talking about the books.



I think this is the basis of all good Snape/Hermione fics - fans have seen Hermione's tolerance for everyone, her defence of Snape on numerous occasions, and the fact that, intellectually, she would be a wonderful challenge for Snape. No other character fills that role and hence I think it's a very natural ship to see. It's also very beautiful, when well written. Sort of a Beauty and the Beast sort of thing (though I'm sure Hermione wouldn't appreciate being compared to a Beast ( Gratuitous Alan Rickman favouritism!!)

As for the last comment, I think it depends on your perception of Snape. I happen to think he's innocent, and very misunderstood. I felt sorry for him in his worst memory and I think there is a certain degree of vulnerability there because of that. So yes, I do believe he deserves happiness with someone who is his equal, and Hermione could be that equal...in a few years Which is why I like the Snape/Hermione ship so much. Obviously there are going to be those who hate it, and those will probably be primarily Snape haters who just don't see in the character what those who like him do. To each his own, as long as no-one knocks someone else for their opinions. Live and let live, you know



Ooh, Fish, now there's a controversial statement! Are you perhaps suggesting that homosexuality and young/old relationships are immoral? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the aims of the series as a whole. What are the aims? I guess we could have a whole thread about that alone!

Wow... not one entry in this topic since November ?

Let's stir things up a bit, shall we?

Back to the question about whether or not it is worth theorizing about non-cannon ships, I believe that the answer is yes.

There are sites upon sites upon sites of nothing but Harry Potter (and other) fan fiction stories. They range from novicely written to expertly composed. Now, let's ask ourselves, why would someone who writes for a living spend their time composing a fictional story, that will make no money whatsoever, using Harry Potter characters? I believe that the answer is simple: the characters are addictive!

I know, I know... bear with me here for a second...

How many of you reading this have spent hours reading a fan fiction story? Now, how many of you prefer one ship (cannon or otherwise) to another, and take that ship into consideration when choosing a fan fiction story to read?

Do you see what I'm saying here? We find a ship(s) that we like, and we can't seem to stray from it (them). I believe that many aspects of the Harry Potter universe can be somewhat addictive, beginning with the books themselves. How many people here have read the books more than once? No, no... be honest .

So, you see, the question of whether or not it is worth debating non-cannon ships can be answered thusly:

They are worth debating if you think they are!

Until I came to VTM last year, I, being naive in the world of HP forums (teehee) didn't even know that this other world of non cannon existed. I guess as an ummm adult, I read the books and accepted the relationships that JKR had presented before me. I didn't like some of them, and still don't but it never crossed my mind that I or anyone else would 'play' with them.

Like Louise said, there are some ships that don't sit comfortable, like the schoolgirl/teacher ships ie HG/SS, and yet if you make HG a grown woman, this ship becomes acceptable and in the case of some fic writers, believable.



This is very true, I'm not a fan of HP/GW, I never liked it whilst reading HBP so I tend to avoid fics with them as the topic. Also, as much as the teenager in me would like a resolution to the RW/HG ship in the books, I don't go near fics of that ilk because I always have this thing at the back of my mind that I don't want this to happen.

I have read a couple of good slash ships, that have been handled sensitively and in an adult manner, other the mere pairing has put me off because straight away I think of the legal implications that such pairings would create.

But in saying this, all credit must go to an author who has written a world/characters so fantastic, that others feel comfortable in being able to expand to incorporate their own visions.

I think it's about time I put in my thoughts here. I love reading fanfics and discussing ships, both those I support and don't support.

The impact of ships on the readers' vision of cannon (does it detract from it, add to the story, etc.).
I think it adds to the cannon. A readers different ships give them their own opinions on the cannon. I agree with Louise, it adds new dimensions to the cannon. It allows us to be more imaginitive with the facts we were given in the book. I have to have read books and then made up storylines to go with them in my head. It lets me enjoy the book after I finish trying to immagine where my favorite characters have gone after the book.

The appropriateness of certain ships (i.e. Slash, Young/Old, etc.) in a series originally intended for children.
I think that these ships are perfectly fine for fanfics, I even enjoy reading them there. However, I don't think that they belong in the books. I think that there are to many little kids reading the books to have things like student/teacher relationships in them. It's fine for fanfics where it's mainly adults and teens reading them. But seriously, would you really want your child or younger sibling reading a book where a student is dating their teacher? I certainly wouldn't. However, for teens and adults it's perfectly acceptible for us to want to read about these relationships. I just don't think it's necessary to have them in a place where little kids are reading as well.

How and why fans take completely non-romantic relationships, run with them, and form full-fledged fanfics (i.e. Harry, a student, and Lupin, his mentor).
It depends on the ship itself with this one, I suppose. With the Lupin/Harry one, I'm honestly at a loss as to how people came to it. However, I happen to ship Neville/Luna, even though Jo has said it won't happen, that they are just friends. I see similarities in them that make them compatible. They are both sort of outsiders, so they probably understand each other a little better than most. Also, they are so different. Neville being on the shyer side and Luna being so outgoing. The whole opposites attract thing, along with having a few things in common....who knows

Is it worth theorizing and debating all non-trio ships that are overwhelmingly unlikely to happen?
Definitley! I don't think it makes a difference wether or not the ship will actually happen. It's fun to trade veiws on it and see what other people think. Just because Jo doesn't plan on writing something, our immaginations are still allowed to run wild with the ideas if we choose. I agree with Lily here.

I agree, if we can't debate this, then what can we debate? And whose to say which topics are acceptible to debate while others are not?


Well, I suppose this depends on the reader. I personally do not support the Harry/Draco ship, I think they hate each other to much to ever manage to date. But I still enjoy reading some of the H/D fanfics. However, it is also true that when I'm looking for a new one to read, the first thing I do is scroll through looking for new ones of my favorite ships.

~Kristina~

It's been a year since anyone has posted something here, and there is at least one more thing to discuss, so I am bringing this up!

Thanks to Elaine for mentioning this point: one controversial relationship that has generated a lot of discussion ever since it has been revealed by JKR, is the one Dumbledore and Grinenwald. Not only because it is a homosexual one, but also because it doesn't seem "ordinary" for the world of wizards.

So, what I'm asking myself is how such a relationship would stand in their world. Would it affect Dumbledore's fame, would parents let him become a professor or would it have changed his life, if of course, it had been a fruitful one? Would wizards act like we do when it comes to such a controversial topic?

Personally, I think that it would have been hard for people to accept it in the beginning. However, in a world where the most extraordinary things for us, seem rather dull to its inhabitants, it might have been yet another aspect of magicians' life. I am pretty sure that Dumbledore was not the only one to have homosexual feelings, there must have been other wizards as well. So, maybe if Dumbledore and Grinenwald had been together, they could have introduced something new, an "innovation" let's call it.

So, maybe, maybe being homosexual in the world of magic, would be as ordinary as being a Squib or a non-pure blood. I really can not be sure, but deep inside I think that the world of magic is one where everything is accepted. Half-magicians, half-giants, dragons, animals who think like humans...

What do you guys think?

I'm really not sure how I've never stumbled upon this topic, because the controversial ships tend to be my forte. That makes it sound odd, but to be blunt, I don't ship cannon. I used to be a die hard Ron/Hermione fan until I dropped away from the HP universe (sad, I know) for a couple years. When I came back, I became a die hard Snape/Hermione fan.

Personally, I think that the way that Jo has supplied so many characters for her readers to use their imaginations with is brilliant. We are allotted scenarios between all of the characters, with dialogue to back up just about any ship that a person can think of.

I would probably have to say that ever since Dumbledore's character has been 'outed', slash is most likely the most controversial issue in HP. This is partly because of misconstrued opinions on the way that Jo portrayed DD and Harry's relationship to where it sounds... well, you know where I'm getting at. In this sense, I believe that those who base their opinions on such information are just looking for something bad to find in such an amazing series... but alas, it's just an opinion.

I love how Alkist has put it:

I couldn't agree more with that statement.

As far as the student/teacher pairings go, I wholely understand the morally gray of the entire situation. Like I said before, I ship Hermione/Snape, so I have strong opinons on the ship in its entirity along with the general idea of such a pairing. I shall save you poor souls on going in on that tirade... for now that is.

This is a wonderful topic and hopefully since Alkisti has started a new topic to touch on, it can draw in more discussion!

Ooh, great topic! I've been keeping a very sleepy eye on places to discuss this ship (I probably haven't searched that well, but nevertheless, I'm here now.)



I think I'm going to have to disagree. Throughout the books we have many instances of bigotry and close-mindedness amongst wizards. The amount of fuss that was kicked up over Hagrid being officially labelled as half-giant; for no creature other than those in the wizarding population to be allowed to carry wands; the great differences still about between pure-bloods and the rest of the population; the social stigma against Squibs - they all indicate a lack of understanding and therefore acceptance. Dumbledore coming out gay, I think he would have been ostrasized. Wizards (and Witches!) are still human, so they experience all the same emotions as humans (though probably in different scenarios ). It is only natural, therefore, that wizards suffer the same tendencies as muggles, and are likely to prejudge, label and discriminate based on faulty information or a very narrow viewpoint. Magic is wonderful, but does not change the basic core of the person. Mrs Weasley still judged Hermione based on Rita Skeeter's articles, yet she had known that it would be totally out of character for Hermione to break Harry's heart. She was taken in by a discriminating viewpoint, despite her conflicting knowledge of the situation.

Anyway. DD's and Grindelwald's relationship - had it been successful - I think would have meant that DD would have had to work a lot harder to get where he is (or was, before he died! ) He had enough opposition against him anyway - what with him being a 'crackpot old fool' - that being openly gay may have been too much for others to accept. But then again, was he openly gay? Just because it wasn't written in the books doesn't mean that the wizarding population at large didn't know that he was homosexual. Everyone could have been fine with it, which would of course have changed everything...

Slash is now the controversial topic in the series. However, people who start instantly drawing dodgy ideas about how Harry spent all that time in DD's office... well. Would they be thinking along the same lines if McGonagall was mentoring Harry? Just because he's gay does not make him a paedophile (sp?).

Whew! That's done. Keep posting, I'm interested in other's opinions.

The way you put it Rebecca (or James? or Mundu? ), you are right. The world of magic can be discriminating. But isn't this in human nature?

I believe that discrimination is very visible when it comes to non-human creatures, whereas in real world, discrimination affects only humans. The reason for that is that wizards and witches consider themselves (or some of them) better than Squibs, giants etc, as they think that their abilities and their using magic and wands is the key-point that makes them capable of ruling the world and deciding who is good and who is bad.

That's why I believe that people would have been more accepting to Dumbledore's homosexuality, or to the fact that he was attracted to a man what-so-ever. I don't think that sexuality has a big part in the books, so I really come to think that this would not have affected his life. As for being a pedophile, this is disgusting and unacceptable. His love and affection to Harry should not be treated this way.

I don't mind Dumbledore being gay. It doesn't take anything from what I thought of him, taking also in consideration the fact that he kept his feelings secret and he didn't "provoke".

However, I was a little bit irritated by the fact that JKR decided to announce this after the series had ended. But this is a whole different topic, ain't it?

The trouble is with being told someone is gay, we sadly fall into the trap of drawing on stereotypes in our perception of what that means. By these we often think of gay as someone who is either camp or sleazy. The reality however is very different.

I hate stereotypes and I'm sure that when Jo Rowling envisaged Dumbledore to have feelings for another man, she never in her minds eye saw someone with a limp wrist, tight leather trousers singing the praises of gay pride. I hope I'm right in envisaging this young man who unexpectedly found himself attracted to a good looking foriegner, whose company and friendship he came to enjoy immensely. I doubt that JKR ever thought that behind closed doors, Dumbledore would dress up in womans clothing like some over aged drag queen.

The other stereotype associated with gay men is that they are in someway attracted to younger men, even boys. This is where the sleaze comes in. I'm sure out there in the real world this is true, but in JKR's world, I hope that she never thought for a minute of anything going on behind the gargoyles between Harry and Dumbledore.

Because my vision of Dumbledore is how I have explained above, I find it wholly acceptable for him to be gay. Still, I don't see the point of 'outing' him after the publication of the final book. It's a sort of irrelavence to me, a thought that she should have kept to herself.

~Okay, so I think for me to answer the other questions effectively I will need to address this statement first. I'm not sure how true this is especially when we have people like Umbridge running around with her half breed, half giant prejudices. Everything is possible in the world of magic but not always tolorated. It is certainly not acceptable for a goblin or house elf to handle a wand with out the magical community (with Hermione as the exception) getting into an uproar. Lupin is a talented and capable wizard, however he is not accepted because of prejudices against his werewolf condition that he had no control over obtaining.


~I most certainly think that any witch or wizard with homosexual tendencies would have done as Dumbledore did and kept it in the closet. I think that wizarding society is steeped in tradition. Family trees, bloodlines, old magic have very deep roots in this society and something such as this would have been alien to the society as a whole. Had Albus been outed sooner in his lifetime, I do believe that he was brilliant enough to achieve the same status he had attained however his road may have been more difficult. I think it is safe to assume that any society that would start pulling their children from a school where a teacher was part wolf although it was the most learning they had in that subject, would definately cause some controversy among parents and the school govenors if one of their teachers/headmaster were gay.


~This Im also not sure of. I have a very vivid picture in my mind of a magical Bonnie and Clyde. Imagine...Grindelwald and Dumbledore, both extremely brilliant, both extremely ambitious and yet Grindelwald could not bridle his passion for muggle domination. Now I am not saying that Dumbledore would have gone along with whatever his friend had in mind but had they had a full fledged relationship I think it would have ended in a bloodbath or they would have gone the way of so many others who think it is a good idea to work with their significant other...it just causes more conflict.

**wow, I didn't expect to have much to say on this particular subject...apparently I did.

Wow, nobody's posted here in awhile, let's try to get this topic going again.



Like any human society, most things are accepted to the people who don't stereotype, and don't believe in stereotypes. Most of the characters in Harry Potter are like this, except of course Umbridge, which most of you have said before. nevillesgirl, you said that Lupin isn't accepted because he is a werewolf, but I believe he was, except for the small percentage of wizards that think they are higher than all the rest because nothing is "abnormal" about them. Lupin grew up with his group of friends- The Mauderers, he was part of the Order, and seemed to be very well-liked by most of the wizarding world. Even Snape helped him out in Book 3 while he was a teacher at Hogwarts.




etphonehome had said that her views on Dumbledore hadn't changed after his "outing", and neither had mine. Personally, I believe that the people who think that Dumbledore had a relationship with Harry during his visits is really stretching to point out his sexuality. Dumbledore never came off to me as the type of character who would ever want a relationship with a child. People never thought these thoughts of Dumbledore until after Jo told her readers he was a homosexual, so why even start thinking them?
As for the question, "How such a relationship would stand in their world?" It seems to me like most wizards wouldn't mind now-a-days that Dumbledore was gay, but back before Molly Weasley and the older crowd, it would have been a problem, because so many people (Like the Minister) always thought Dumbledore was out to overthrow him. I was watching a TV program the other day, when a young, intelligent gay man applied for five different colleges, and was denied by all of them. When he called the colleges back, wondering why he had been denied, they simply said, "Because you are a homosexual." Which is stereotyping, and isn't acceptable to me. I believe, if Dumbledore had come out of the closet and told other wizards he was gay, then I think the same thing or along those lines would have happened to him.

I have to disagree there. Lupin himself stated that werewolfs are not accepted into the wizarding society. We are used to seeing Lupin within Harry Potter's world; but not in the wizarding world as a whole. Most wizards probably see him as a threat to their security and their childs. Wether or not they think he is a nice guy or not is irrelevant because they only see him as a werewolf and nothing more.

He became friends with "the Marauders," but that somewhat supports the side that werewolfs are shunned. Mainly because those were his only friends at Hogwarts. He was part of the Order and trusted by them mainly because they were following DD and harry's lead. As well as the fact that Sirius could take his side because they were such good buddies. That and the Order, unfortunately, is not like most of the wizarding world.

As for Snape...he helped Lupin on Dumbledore's orders. He may have been also helping Lupin to minimize the risk to the students. But you remember why Lupin resigned. He himself said that owls would be coming in next morning demanding his resignation.

I think that Lupin, although a phenomenal person, is still shunned because of his handicap.

Just wanted to send a nudge in here..although its great conversation taking place this thread is for controversial coupling in the Harry Potter books. There is a great thread where you can continue this conversation the thread is called why wasnt Lupin trusted. feel free to copy your thoughts in that thread

Thanks!

How about Lupin's marriage? This falls into the Controversial relationships discussion. Doesn't it seem unorthodox for a werewolf to get married and have a baby? How would the magical society react under normal circumstances? By normal circumstances I mean not having a War and not seeing everyone around you die. A society isn't very judgmental when its members die at the speed of light. So, what do you think about that?

Honestley I have never read a fic centered around Harry and Draco. If I were to read one, it would have to have a brilliant plotline and not just the romance of these two characters. Actually, that is a stipulation I carry to all the fan fics I start off reading. I have read some that start promising and then turn into a snogfest and then I simply quite reading it. As far as Harry/Draco and their hating one another, I find that this type of tension create a plethora of untapped passion. Hate/great dislike is a powerful emotion and when coupled with the right circumstance can be very intimate.

Personally, I think if I were to truly enjoy a slash fic, it wouln't have anything sexual in nature about it but a strong emotional dependency or pull that binds the characters together.

I ship Hermione and Severus. I love this ship. My favorite timeline for this ship is year seven at Hogwarts because while Hermione is technically still a student, she is legally an adult and capable of making her own choices. I also see nothing wrong with portraying a younger Hermione like in second or third year with a serious teacher crush on Snape. I mean if JKR did it with Lockhart and most of the girls at Hogwarts, then I think that is acceptable. I think the reason I like this ship so much is because there is so much potential for growth of both characters. Snape could learn to be affectionate and adoring while battling his simple male nature and worldly information about how to treat and love a woman. Hermione needs to gain some experience in dealing with men as a whole, not just physically. She is used to wimpering Ron Weasely and most of the men in the world are not that way. She could use a serious heartbreak but she could also use someone who will love her for everything she encompasses and not make fun or be intimidated by her intelligence.

Someone earlier posted that they just don't see it...the potential ship between Harry and Lupin. If I were to put a reason on why I would suggest that trust was a huge issue. Lupin is the first teacher we see Harry form a lasting, real bond with. Lupin is the polar opposite of the only male figure Harry has known for 13 years: Uncle Vernon. In Lupin he sees a sensitive, genuine, intelligent man and is drawn to that kind of quiet strength. I have never thought about this ship ever but now that I have, it seems to have all the ingredients for a tactfully done fanfic.

EDIT: Alkisti, you posted while I was posting so I will answer your question now.



I can see why people would be in an uproar (no pun intended!) over such a marriage. I mean up until then, the status quo was to shun werewolves, not encourage their integration into society. I think that if it is proven that being a werewolf is not something you can pass on to your children through heredity then whom ever a werewolf chooses to marry is none of societies business whether it's orthodox or not. The only reason I see this ship as controversial is because Lupin himself had issues in thinking he was a monster and not nearly good enough or deserving of love. Harumph! That's a load of rubbish in my opinion.

Addressing Lupin's marriage. I think that it is only fair to allow werewolfs to have the same rights as they would have had, had they not been biten. Thus, allow them to get married but also allow them to have kids. In the wizarding world, it would most likely have a negative connotation because at the very mention of a ship with a werewolf (and then reproduction slips into the picture) people begin to fear if the offspring will in fact be a werewolf or a normal child.

As for me I think that it would be a normal child. Mainly due to my schooling in science. Darwin states that acquired traits cannot be passed on to offspring. It is only genetic gifts that pass on to offspring and mutations occur (which is where adaption takes place). But as far as I know acquired traits cannot be passed on.

So...all-in-all, I believe that it is acceptable for a relationship with a werewolf in which the couple have children.

Oh, alkisti, I absolutely love your avi. Made me laugh so hard the first time I watched it.

This thread is very interesting and had made great points; so I decided to leave my little contribution.

About the DD/GG ship. I'm so a stereotyped person that I suck. I think as you that, if the wizarding world has been always discriminative either we talk about Muggles, about their siblings magical creatures and about Squibs, it'll definitely be horrified about gays between wizards. More yet, if we are talking about the greatest wizard of all the ages. I was shocked when I found it out, I have to admit it. I have nothing against gay people, and I try to convince myself of that love is love in any way, but sadly I can't. I'm quite close-minded in that aspect. Dumbledore have always let that very clear, that love is the most powerful and that, in short, love is love whatever the form it takes.
I don't see anything wrong in Remus marrying and having children, but I could not bear it if Dumbledore had ... married Grindelwald, or lived with him, for example. Of course, as I said, I have nothing against them, but I don't get used to it.

When we talk about Remus, I see the man, not the werewolf. Maybe because we knew him as a man; we didn't see the werewolf through Harry's eyes. It could be that, as the one who married Tonks, kissed Tonks and had children with Tonks was Remus Lupin man, not the werewolf, we don't think of that as inmoral.

(Ok, my mum is shouting me to leave, but I'll be here again tomorrow)

I think the choice to marry should not be taken from a person just because they have an unusual trait, habit, or as James Potter put it, "Furry Little Problem." I don't think it was such an odd thing that werewolves were allowed to marry, I'm sure the Ministry (particuarly Umbridge) would have looked down upon it, but I think it would fall into some kind of discrimination if they were to forbid werewolves to get married. I think, as long at their partner understands and accepts the situation, there shouldn't be anything against it. I wasn't too sure about the whole Remus/Dora marriage side-plot, but that was because I doubt they would have been so stupid as to marry and have children in the middle of a war, not because of the werewolf issue.
As for Dumbledore and Grindelwald, I admit, I was shocked too. My conservative Christian family was too I can't really have an opinion on the issue of them perhaps marrying, because we don't know heaps about the relationship. I always got the impression that it was an unrequited love, that Gellert did not feel the same way, and Albus's heart was broken. Or maybe it broke because the love of his life was suddenly blowing up people, I don't know, I would be pretty upset about that personally. But if the first instance was correct, they wouldnt have gotten married, but I'm not sure what the wizarding policy of gay marriage is. I would feel the same way if they had got married, DeSs, I wouldn't really feel right about it. I can't see Albus married, no matter who it was to. And in some ways, I love the idea that there was a love, a love that had gone horribly wrong and had left a scar forever.

The impact of ships on the readers' vision of canon (does it detract from it, add to the story, etc.).

If anything, reading fanfics with controversial pairings (HP/DM and HG/GiW) makes me appreciate the stories much better. I read a lot more into every little Quidditch spat between Harry and Draco, and indeed often find it hard to remember whether I read something in a fanfic or in a book...

I used to like the pairing that J.K. Rowling had in the books until i ran across a HG/DM Fanfic and i really like that pair because its putting two opposites together that have more in common than they know. I think its good that Draco can get away from all purebloods and go with a muggle born. I like seeing the nicer side of him. I really like the slytherin Griffyndor pairing because the two houses that hate each other are coming together. I also like GW/BZ. I dont think that Harry should have ended up with her it just doesnt seem right to me. Im not really into any DM/ any other boy fics because i like Draco and Hermione is the only person i can see him with.