I read in CoS,Last chapter.Dumbledore says that the Hat could see the qualities of Slytherin in Harry,the rare gift,determination etc.But it put HP in Gryffindor only because he asked the Hat not to put him in Slytherin.But the Hat does know what qualities Harry is having and he is supposed to go to Slytherin.To sort correctly,that's the duty of the Hat.Not to ask people which house they want to be in.That means many people which ever house they want to be in can ask the Hat to put them there and it will do it.It seems that the Hat does not have any use at all.

I think that the hat acts more as a guide, then a strict sorter. He tells everyone (or this is what I am asuming after hearing Harrys conversation with the hat in SS) where he thinks they should be placed and why. I think that most students would go along with the hat on his assumption, because he does know their thoughts, and most likely the students are so overjoyed or frightened about being sorted, they go with the first choice they have.

After glancng over the parts in the Harry Potter books when kids get sorted I have noticed that some kids take a very long time to sort (like Harry) while others are very quick and seem to never even have the chance to sit on the stool. I think that the quicker students are unsure or verysure of where they want to be placed, and therefore it is easy for the hat to tell which house they should be sorted into. And the students that take a longer time to sort, probably disagree with where they want to go. If I recall correctly, Neville took a very long time to be sorted. As for Ron, the hat took a very short time to find out were he shold be sorted.

So I also agree that students thoughts definetly influence where they are sorted.

Yeah, the Hat is meant to sort people, not let them choose, but Harry had qualities of both Gryffindor and Slytherin. Equally, I believe. I think that in the end, the Sorting Hat could not properly sort Harry, because he was a mixture of both Gryffindor and Slytherin equally. By what the Hat says, it seems he thought Slytherin was the better choice, hence 'You could be great in Slytherin.' In the end, he let Harry choose because ultimately, Harry would be the person in the actual house. Do you get where I'm coming from?



This is a very good point, the Hat is more of a guide, than a strict sorter. Also, this is what I believe, in relation to:

I think the Hat may have wanted to sort Neville in Hufflepuff, as he is very loyal. But, if you think about it, Neville had a lot of pressure from his grandmother to do as well as his parents. I think Neville thought he had to be in Gryffindor to do this. That's my little theory if you followed it, .

HGJL

I am glad to see that this thought has taken off. Personally, I think that the Hat is a sorter. If a person clearly belongs in a house, it will place them there immediately. I am thinking that Voldemort was sorted into Slytherin almost instantly. If you possess qualities from more than one house, the Hat talks with you to get to know you a little better. If your true house becomes apparent, you are sorted there. The idea that you get to choose is interesting, but I do not think the Hat would give complete choice to the student.

I agree that there is a choice, but like After the Burial said, some students might automatically be placed in a house almost without their choice...perhaps family history (though there is are a few exceptions such as the Patil twins) or exceptional ability/qualities in one area that make the choice without a shadow of a doubt. It would make sense both ways...even moreso since one theme in the series is the choices we make.

I agree that there is a choice, but like After the Burial said, some students might automatically be placed in a house almost without their choice...perhaps family history (though there is are a few exceptions such as the Patil twins) or exceptional ability/qualities in one area that make the choice without a shadow of a doubt. It would make sense both ways...even moreso since one theme in the series is the choices we make.

good points so far . i like the idea of the hat looking inside the mind of a person... this is were the persons thoughts, likes, dislikes and traits are "discussed". i don´t think that you can choose your house ,e.g. if you want to go to ravenclaw, because your dad went there, but your qualities fit better into huffelpuff. the hat sorts you into the house that is the right one in regard of your traits and of cause your personal (not the ones of your dad) wishes. i thought it would be an easy question to answer, but now that i think about it, it isn´t . i agree with the once that said that if you have equall qualities for two house, you can tell your choice or your favourite house to the hat. yes, our choices show who we are, but the quick sorted once may have made their choices already in regard of their talents and traits (i could never picture a loyal huffelpuff dreaming of becoming a slytherin).
i think malfoys sorting was that fast, because he always believed that this was the only house for him to be in. i mean it was his wish, not "oh, my father wants it and i want to make him happy", he was convinced that he is a slytherin (though i have to admit that his parents did some kind of "brainwashing" with him since he was born).
nevilles sorting wasn´t that quick, because you wouldn´t recognize his qualities at first sight. he is shy and clumpsy , i´m sure the hat had an interesting conversation with him...he isn´t the boldest one, but as we saw in the books, he has a good character and he improved in the DA. he is willing to fight against his enemies...and to me that is bravery.

Nice analysis #tigerlily#

I just want to add one thing. I was re-reading Chamber of Secrets and came to the part where Harry and Ron were looking through a window into the Great Hall to see the first years being sorted. The narrator says that Harry's only took a few seconds, however, as we know, it appeared to us that it didn't. Perhaps from viewing it from the outside it takes a few moments, but within our heads it may take a good long while.

There seem to be many mysteries to that hat if I don't say so myself

Haha, it's funny, because I agree with EVERYTHING said, I really have nothing more to add. Though I do have another question/topic for us Gryffindors!

I was wondering, with the whole Fidilus (or however you spell it) charm, you know how there has to be a Secret Keeper? Well, couldn't you just make the Secret Keeper one of the people who will be living in the place, or whatever? For example, with the Potters, couldn't they have just made one of themselves the Secret Keeper? I mean, it's guaranteed they won't tell anyone - they don't want to be found and killed! Do you think it's possible? Because if it is, the Potters might've lived! *tear*

HGJL

P.S: I just love the Potters, tis why I am asking this question, .

i have never read about it not being done but i am sure there is a reason it wasnt... i mean dumbledore is the secret keeper for 12 grimrald place and he uses it...but maybe you cant be the secret keeper if you own the house and because sirius owns the house dumbledore can be the secret keeper i have to go back and read them now to see if it says the owner cant be the secret keeper...

could i chage the subject to horcruxes.do you really think that voldemort actually stole something from the gryffindor house that was important to become a horcrux.

Hey, umm, I still want any answers to the Secret Keeper question! I am really interested - it's starting to bug me *whine* ! Haha, .

Anyway, somehow I don't think Voldemort stole anything of Gryffindor's that would possibly become a Horcrux. I mean, why would Voldemort make something a Horcrux when he despised its owner? I think it's a possibility, but not likely.

HGJL

He may despise the owner, but remember...Voldemort appears to want things from the original founders. He made something of Slytherins and Hufflepuff's into Horcruxes, and Ravenclaw is questionable. Dumbledore says this in book 6.

As for the secret keeper question. It would make sense to do that, so if it didn't happen there must be some sort of magical restriction. I guess it goes by you can't make a secret between yourself and nobody, because then there wouldn't be a secret, just a thought in your mind. Know what I mean?

i´m not an experct for the horcrux question...sorry i have no idea yet.

i agree with El Barto on the secret keeper question! i think you need to find someone that you entrust your life. someone who doesn´t live in the house. someone who is doing you a favour with becoming your secret keeper. a close friend or person that you can rely on. your trust in this person is, in my opinion, the most important ingredience for this charm. yes, i´d say a deep trust to someone else is what the charm is about.
i believe it´s hard to find the right one for this job. i know many people who can´t keep a secret...

I guess. He may have a sort of obsession with the Founders, but somehow I just can't picture Voldemort making one of his Horcruxes an item that belonged to Godric Gryffindor. He hates Gryffindor behaviour alone, let alone the man himself.



What do you mean by 'you can't make a secret between yourself and nobody, because then there wouldn't be a secret,' You wouldn't be perfomring the spell, and person who did, would know where the place was, but would be unable to reveal it. Let me make an example. Say the Potters needed a Secret Keeper, and they chose Lily. Well, Dumbledore would perform the Fidilius Charm with James, Lily, and himself in the room. Now, anyone who had been there before, or if only the people in the room had, James, Lily, and Dumbledore would know the whereabouts of the place, but wouldn't be able to reveal it.

I may have confused you, but basically, I don't know how it wouldn't be possible. There was no mention of not being able to be the Secret Keeper of the place you're staying in.



Yeah, but you can have deep trust in yourself, right? If Lily was the Secret Keeper, or James, then they would trust the other, and themselves... right?

It's just a thought.

HGJL

Then how did Peter reveal the place to Voldemort if he was Secret Keeper? Unless you're saying that only the person who performed the charm would be able to reveal it...then that would Dumbledore the person who revealed the place, according to you...unless I have indeed been confused by your explanation.

What I mean by not being able to keep a secret between you and yourself...is...well, think of it this way.

"I promise myself to never read Harry Potter"

You can promise yourself, of course, and keep it a secret to yourself but what would that accomplish? All it is, is a thought. You're thinking that its a secret to only yourself, when a secret is something another person either knows or is interested in. So it being a secret only unto yourself, with nobody else knowing that you have a secret, is only a thought within one's mind.


I think he has an obsession with the founders because of the power...or he's on an ego trip. He is a collector, like Kreacher or Slughorn, and what better things to collect than the very things belonging to the founders of the school he felt so fond of?

well, i think i´ve said everything to the secret keeper question in my last post and i don´t know what to add?! (and i still agree with El Barto. i think that it is the trust between you and someone else that creates the magical binding...)


i agree with you. he must have been fascinated by their power!
what i´ve learned about LV this far is that he is a collecter, and that he is really obsessed by the 4 founders. i mean the only thing that ever meant something to him was hogwarts...he was an excellent student and even wanted to become a teacher. he got this greedy expression as he talked with herbathzia smith (spelling?) about the huffelpuff cup (i don´t think that huffelpuff is his favoutite house! ) and i don´t think he would say no to a heirloom of gryffindor either!

True, but I also think that he is very intent on collecting items that belonged to the Four Houses because of the magical properties and spells. Remember, in one book, Dumbledore said something about how this school (Hogwarts) holds more spells and enchantments, that even he doesn't know them all. Which may be the reason that Voldemort wanted the job in the first place- to gain more knowledge of the magic.


Also, do you think that by getting one object of each House, he will somehow make the Horcruxes more powerful? Because we know he wanted 7 because "7 is the most magical number", but do you think getting one object from each House to have a collection of the group that was basically one (until Slytherin left) that he will gain more power? Like, combining Earth, Air, Fire, and Water? Am I making any sense here?

Yes, you're making sense, and it's a good point ...

And about the Secret Keeper, I think trust is part of what makes the bond so powerful, and, like other people have said, you can't keep a secret from yourself.

I have thought of a question, though: is it possible to use legilimency to find the secret? Look in the Secret Keeper's mind and see the secret? If that makes sense...

Hmmm.....Yes that makes sense.....but I don't think so. I think that's the whole point of the Secret-Keeper. By performing the spell, you make it impossible for the whereabouts to be discovered unless you willingly give them up. On a regular person who knows the location and hasn't had the Fidilius Charm put on them, then I'm sure Legilimency would work. But I think that's why they used the Fidilius Charm...to make sure that wouldn't happen....

No, I'm sure the Fidelius Charm covers that. I don't think you could use Legilimency to find out even on people other than the Secret Keeper. What would be the point if anyone could just poke around in your mind and find the answer? Plus, remember Kreacher told Malfoy stuff about the Headquarters, but couldn't tell him where they actually were? I'm sure if he could've, Malfoy would've just used Legilimency on Kreacher and found out anyway. Also, it says in the books that there is no way to find out the location unless the Secret Keeper tells you. Voldemort is a very good Legilimens. Heck, he can even use it without eye contact, which is supposedly vital for Legilimency! So if he could've, he would've.

Ahhhh.....I see your point but Kreacher couldnt tell malfoy the headquarters where abouts because he had the duty to serve the blacks and sirius made him promise not to tell. thats why they couldnt let him go because then he wouldnt have a loyalty to the balcks and could tell malfoy! OK does that make sense? yes iy does Ok Well ta ta

Yeah, I guess that you can't keep a secret from yourself. It was a good thought, though, .

Hmm, I think FredsSweetie14 was right about how Kreacher just couldn't betray his master's orders. There may be more to this Legilimency than we thought! But then AGAIN, stag tells us that...


So I don't know... but I am leaning more towards stag's argument. What do you think guys?

Oh, and I also think El Barto made a good point about how Voldemort was obsessed with the four founders... it's something to think about, yes.

HGJL

I guess ...

speaking of legilimency, I thought that if Voldemort ever found out that Harry knows the prophecy he could use Legilimency to hear it from Harry's memory ... there's all sorts of dangers with Harry not being a good Occlumens and Voldemort could use that to his advantage.

I know what I'm trying to say, I'm just not good at putting it into words.

i know exactly what your saying i was thinking about that just the other day actually. and could possably do it. but how would it help him now he has all ready marked harry as his equal there is nothing he can do about that now and he is all ready obsessed with killinh harry so there isnt really anything in the prophecy that can help him. but i was always thinkning about something you know how is a place has a secret keeper then no one but the secret keeper can speak the address of that place BUT could some one use legilimency to get the address i know probably not and everything and if they could voldermort would have number 12 grimrald place but it never says in the books that it cant be done

Okay, several things to say. Firstly, Snape told us that Legilimency allows you to see images and memories. A skilled Leglimens can interpret these images correctly. Legilimency does not allow you to see or hear anything. That is according to what Snape said. If we accept this as true, then Dumbledore must have been browsing Morfin's memories and got a snippet of that memory. Finding it interesting, Dumbledore used some other form of magic to take the memory out of Morfin. Only after entering the memory could he hear what was said.

Secondly, Dumbledore was perfectly confident that Kreacher could never betray the Headquarters by any means. To quote:



This tells me that the Fidelus Charm prevents him from revealing the secret in any way. I am sure that Dumbledore would have thought that Voldemort would have spoken to Kreacher at least once over those many months. If Voldemort could know, Dumbledore would have changed Headquarters. Also, Dumbledore does not say that Kreacher was forbidden to reveal their location; he was forbidden from revealing their plans. There was no need to give that order because the Fidelus Charm works that well.

Lastly, Voldemort wants to create a place in history for himself. What better way than to use personal belonging from the four most famous wizards, the founders of Hogwarts? By using each of them, he places himself above all of them. The notion of placing himself above the great Godric Gryffindor would outweigh any enmity he might have for the Gryffindor philosophy.

Ok, I think After the Burial just kinda summed it all up for us. There is nothing to add! Ahh! Ok, I'll ask a new question!

Umm... let me think... ok, well, it is said that Gryffindor and Slytherin were friends, but then had a fight and Slytherin left the school. Most people believe the fight was due to the fact Slytherin didn't want to teach Muggle-borns... is this true? I wasn't sure if it was ever confirmed in the books.

HGJL

It was implied so heavily in the books that I am willing to accept it as truth. If it was revealed dramatically to have been something else, I would be surprised. The fight over muggle-borns seemed to cause great strife in the beginning.

Salazar Slytherin did not want muggle-borns to be taught at Hogwarts that is why he and Godric Gryffindor had the big falling out all of those years before. The other 3 founders (Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw and Gryffindor) wanted to allow the oppurtunity for all cpupils with magical ablities, (muggle borns and pure bloods) to be able to have the chance to be taught at Hogwarts, but Salazar wanted no part of this so therefore he left the school never to return....

Yes,it is given clearly in the book that he did not wanted to teach the Muggle borns(mudbloods in his point of view ).But why would he plan to kill of these innocent children by planting a chamber containing the deadly basilisk?.He hates these childrens I agree on that fact but I don't think he would go to the extent of killing them!! And where could he get that big monster?.And what did the monster did for it's food??.I'm sure it can't be living without eating for 50 yrs! Any thoughts?

My guess is that it could have layed dormant or something, or produced its own food somehow...it being a magical creature. I know there are large snakes in the world, but not that big. In other myths, do basilisks just live forever until they are killed a certain way?

Here is a quote from Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.



So, they can live for an extremely long time. In the cave/dungeon environment of the chamber, there were rats. I imagine the Basilisk ate rats. Note that the passage does not say how much is sufficient to make a lasting food source. Also note that it is pretty easy to make a Basilisk. As a parselmouth, Slytherin would not have had difficulty controlling it.

Hmm, yeah, it does seem that the fight about Muggle-Borns was why Slytherin left the school, thanks, . Also, about the Basilisk; I actually never questioned that, so it's good that someone else did! .

I was wondering what you guys thought of Horcrux-wise; possible items? I read a FanFic (yeah, I get that bored), and someone said in a little paragraph that Harry and his friends had destroyed the last Horcrux, Gryffindor's Sword. I was wondering whether you guys thought this item was a possibility for a Horcrux? Just curious, .

HGJL

I thought that JK said that the sword was not a horcrux in an interview. I am certain that Dumbledore said that he was sure it was not a horcrux. If Dumbledore is sure, then he must have checked it already. I would bet that it is not a horcrux.

I could have sworn she said it as well, though I think it was the Sorting Hat. The Sorting Hat also belonged to Gryffindor I believe, and he took it off and they used it for the sorting, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think anything of Gryffindor's has become a Horcrux (unless its the ring, but thats a whole other story and a different theory altogether that I posted in here not too long ago ) Just my opinion.

iv heard about Godric sword being a horcrux aswell. but iv also heard Harry Hedwig Hermione Ron Ginny and a few more other things that i cant remember right now being called horcruzs too. i suppose some peope just get bored and say random things about stuff...

*sigh* well we'll never know until we find out (if we find out)

I don't think that Gryffindor's sword was a horcrux, but it's possible that the sorting hat could be one. It wouldn't have been difficult to sneak a look at the hat, and maybe Voldy enchanted it when he came to ask Dumbledore for the teaching post. After all, if he had time to put a curse on the DADA job, then wouldn't he be able to enchant the sorting hat as well? Is that likely?

hello fellow gryffindors just found out that this is the house for me but they said i also have Slytherin-like qualities but its na all bad just like harry i supose

just thought id say hello anyways peeps, me names christopher call me chris or christy if u want am from ireland were is every one else from?

I'd just thought I'd tell you, ( Half-Blood-Prince), that for conversational posts, the Newbies Common Room is for you! You'll find all the conversational posts you need there! I just posted a long AS post there. Get to know all the new members, and just talk about anything and everything!

If you have any questions, PM me, and most importantly, have fun!

HarryGinnyJamesLily

Barto, you are right. JK said that the Sorting Hat was not a horcrux. I was thinking of the hat when I wrote my last post. My mistake. The reason she gave was that having a horcrux who shouts things out in public was probably a bad idea. (paraphrased)

Still, Dumbledore told Harry he was confident that the sword was not. Dumbledore was "confident the only known relic of Gryffindor" was not a horcrux. As I said earlier, if he was confident, I will trust his knowledge of magic.

no, i also don't think gryffindor's hat is a horcrux! really, it would've told DD and tom riddle would surely have seen that the sorting hat could tell everyone his secret! well, and DD also said that it was a bad idea to put a horcrux into animals,-creatures that can think by themselves. and the sorting hat can think! even though it's a thing not a creature...

hm, and the sword? well, i'll trust DD, too. i don't think it's a horcrux! how could harry have pulled it out of the sorting hat? LV would have put a bunch of spells and curses around it if it was a horcrux, it couldn't just decide to come to harry to help him, right?

Emmm....I dont know I think thatthat the sword isnt a horcrux. I mean like rainyDay said if Harry pulled in out and killed that basalisk with it he probably would have been hurt or something. I mean LV would have put curses all over it or atleast a protective something around it. Kind of like when they went to go find the locket in the HBP and they had to drink all of the potion to get to the locket!

Emmmm....I donk think the hat is one because DD always had it in his office and Tomm Riddle would have made it when he was at school. And ya that would have been extremely difficult. Atleast I think it would be! And surely the hat would have said something to DD if it was because it could telll him anything!

My understanding is that touching the horcrux itself is not dangerous. There are curses and such preventing/punishing anyone from destroying the horcrux. This was why Dumbledore's hand was black. This curse got him when he destroyed the ring horcrux.

Each horcrux also had protective enchantments and such to prevent others from reaching the horcrux in the first place. The curses were intended to make sure that no one lived to destroy more than one.

Yeah, what After The Burial said makes sence. Forgive me if I am repeating what has already been discussed or comfermed, but I think that the person who made the horcrux is pretty much in control of it. They can add enchantments and protect it however. I also think that the maker of the horcrux can call upon their horcrux. This is just a thought, but based on what we saw in OOTP, with Harry being able to see through the snakes eyes, I think he was also looking through Voldemorts pov. Meaning that Voldemort can go into his horcruxes mind (only if its a living thing, I think) and conrol it.

I also have a question, I dont know if JK answered this but, once someone makes a horcrux they cant take that part of their soul and put it back into their origional body, can they? I dont think so, but I just want to ask, just in case.

Potter_Addict_713!! i don't think so....i think the soul stays...no in and out business with those horcruxes. UNLESS im wrong too...i think im right thoughh

hm, well, i guess that you can make your own body a 'horcrux', but the soul would still be torn. i don't think you can rip it apart and then add the piece to your original soul again! but maybe you could be the horcrux and then all pieces would be inside you, but still torn... hm, just a thought...
and i think that the curses are not only there to prevent the wizards to destroy more than one. i really think they're there to prevent the wizard from destroying the horcrux at all. like DD said -LV wanted to find out how the wizard (or witch) got to the the place where the horcrux is hidden, to know their powers and everything... but i don't think he'd let anybody destroy any of his horcruxes! in the cave DD would also have died before he would have been able to destroy the piece of LV's soul...

anyway,... any other ideas what we could discuss?

I don't have an idea for a new topic, so I think I will throw in my two cents on the horcrux. Even if it were possible for a person to make their body a horcrux, it would be a bad idea. The purpose of a horcrux is to hide a piece of the soul away from the body. If the body is destroyed, the person does not die because part of the soul is still earthbound. If the soul piece is in the body, it would be released when the body is destroyed, thus killing the person. There is no good reason to put the soul where it would not be useful.

I agree with the first part..rainyDay! But LV didn't think that anyone could reach the place he had hidden the Horcrux.That's why I think he never kept any strong enchanments around the place of Horcrux other than Inferis and that green liquid..But what made me think is that when DD went to get the ring,he burned his hand because of the enchantments LV had placed around it.So when they went to the cave,R.A.B. should have broken the enchantments placed around.But when DD went there wasn't much enchantments other than Inferi.So do you think once when we break the enchantment will it come back again or will it remain broken making it easier for the next person who comes there!

P.S.Did anyone understand my question?

Let me see. It sounds like you are saying that there are enchantments that prevent a person from finding out about the horcrux's location (such as on the rock...when you get to the cave). Once a person learns that the horcrux is there, and they break the charms preventing them from reaching it, it will become easier for subsequent persons to likewise reach the horcrux location.

Assuming that is correct, I say no. Voldemort would not employ magic that is not lasting. He expects his horcruxes to keep him alive forever, so the magic guarding them should also last forever.....or until the caster is dead.

Interesting, but I'll side with After the Burial on this one. Do you mean enchantments that make the Horcrux invisible? If thats the case, how would the person going to get it know that there is a Horcrux there to begin with? In Dumbledore's case, I think it was when he put on the ring that his hand started to burn. What if a charm or something was placed on the ring such that once you pick it up you are forced or your mind tells you to put it on?

However, it seems as though that would only apply to the ring, if at all. Harry never felt compelled to write in the diary. At first he just flipped through the pages wondering why the owner never wrote in it. RAB wasn't found dead in the cave, unless s/he had a bezoar or something. Does that make sense?

wll, I'll try this one.
So, if it is like you say, then R.A.B. should be injured badly. I mean, if the enchantments remain broken.But, it had to be worse than the green liquid, so he'd have to have someone else to help him.
Am I totally off track, or is that what you meant?