Having recently been contacted by members who feel that they are being persecuted about their opinions within certain threads in this forum, I feel that it might be time to just mention a few things.

Hear hear Dana~!! Cheers for that!! Now hopefully it was not in vain...

Oh, look at that! Dana to the rescue!! I totally agree...I mean we are all a bunch of nice and friendly people here in the forum, so let's keep it that way...we all love this forum, aren't we??

Well, I do post under the H/Hr threads even though i'm a Hr/R shipper, but if you read my posts, you know I dont go attacking them. I just post under all the threads, and that one is included, they even make some points that I agree with, so even if i'm not a shipper, but I dont attack, does that mean I cant post in threads I dont ship for anymore?

No, not all....you can post wherever you like! This thread wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, Bella, so don't worry!!!

Hence the 'debate vs confrontation' topic heading.....healthy debate is fine, but some people were really getting flamed about their ship and I don't see any need for that.

I mean, I'm a H/Hr shipper personally, but I can see why everyone has a thing about R/Hr.

But it wouldn't be very nice of me to go into the R/Hr thread and start calling people stupid or saying stuff like, 'OMG! How can you believe that??!! Haven't you seen chapter x where Ron holds Hermione's hand??!! You must be thick if you can't see that!!!' and stuff like that. That's confrontation.

Debate would be, 'Yeah...I can see your point....but have you considered this....?'

There's a subtle, but very important difference.....

One upsets people and causes bad feeling, the other pushes forward a friendly, intelligent debate....

I've seen your posts, Bella, and they're fine, so don't worry.....

Okay, phew, lol. cause it said if u dont support the ship than dont post, so I'm fine yay, at first i will admit I thought H/Hr shippers were crazy, but then I read some of the posts, and realized it was me, jk.

i think some people have a different idea of what confrontation is. some of us are more direct and terse with our thoughts, others pad it with understanding in order to assure others that it isnt an attack. either way can be acceptable, as long as no one's ideas are being put down indefinatley. while this thread was created for a just purpose, i think some people are taking it a little too far. i feel like im walking on eggshells when i present my opinion. if i ever EVER offend someone, i want to know right away what it is exactly i felt wrong, and how i can fix it.

DEBATE=

"I think...because...in my opinion...to me..."

CONFRONTATION=
"You're wrong...I'm right...it's definatley...its obvious..."

am i right?

Well, FrEcKlEd I couldn't agree more. Sometimes I can be a little too blunt or don't really show much respect towards other people.

Debates are where people remain friends, BUT still can voice their opinions.

Confrontation is where you pick up your sword and start swatting their opinions like silly little flies.

Ok I went too far on that one.

Confrontation is where you are completely horrible.

Unfortunately look through my posts and find that I am guilty on all occasions.

So i'm sorry if I've been mean. To all of you.

Ok ok I'll be quiet now.....

Yes, FrEcKlEd, exactly....

Debate is something that goes on between friends where a point is raised, both opinions are given air time, respected and considered carefully. Yes, both parties may ultimately differ in their opinions, but that is where the respect comes in. Agreeing to differ. No one has the right to force their opinions on someone else. And the example you gave of debate was spot-on.

Confrontation is being aggressive in how you express yourself, calling other people's opinions stupid, unfounded or ridiculous and is particularly rude and nasty when there is not even a reason or evidence cited for those opinions. Because then you just come across as a complete and utter prat. Again, the example you gave was spot-on.

Some people may put their aggession down to their personalities, and that may very well be true, but I'm sorry to say that I really don't accept that as an excuse for rudeness or making other people feel bad. If that is the only way a person can express themselves, then I would suggest that they work on their communication skills - a fundamental ability to have in this world because otherwise, one day, you're liable to end up with a broken nose and it would most assuredly, in my opinion, in that case, be deserved. (Not that I am an advocate of violence in any way, shape or form, but hey...we're all human....

Look, I don't want anyone to feel that they are walking on eggshells here....all I'm asking is that everyone respect other people's opinions and not to shoot people down because they believe something different to you. Consider it a learning curve, okay? We're all working on our communication skills together....learning the very important difference between debate and confrontation.

*nodding vigorously*

TOTALLY spot-on, Freckled, well done!! Couldn't have put it better myself!!

I've only JUST felt ready to start posting again in here coz before, like Freckled said, it felt like I was walking on eggshells when the only thing "wrong" I was doing was stating my opinion.

And Dana, you go girlfriend, thanks heaps for stepping in, it was MUCH needed I reckon!! *huggies* And yeah, I agree (as usual, hehe ) with everything you said in your last post.

It may be part of someone's personality which is fair enough I guess, but in this context, it is NO excuse because THIS IS A FORUM. I've said before that if people can't hack it then maybe they shouldn't be a part of this forum.

Yeah, it's all about having the acceptance that all of us will inevitably have differing opinions because we are unique individuals and respecting this fact.

Agreeing to disagree...yup that's the crux of the matter alright. Especially in regards to ships because really, NONE of us can say we are right and others wrong because JKR has yet to spell it out to us!!

There's been quite a lot of controversy in various areas of the forums over this thread as people seem to be very confused about what constitutes debate and what constitutes confrontation....(Wow...lot of 'C's' in there, wasn't there??!! ) Anyway....

I've set up a question in the 'Polls' section to get some feedback as to whether or not people would like a separate debating thread for their various ships, but in the meantime, I'd like to bring something to everyone's attention...something that I think might help things to go a little smoother around here.

I received a PM from a member yesterday who pointed out a 'debate template' that exists to keep things organised over in FictionAlley, and they suggested something similar for the SHIPS threads here. I took a look at it, and I think that it really does help to make things clearer for people rather than beginning endless arguments about what constitutes arguing/debating etc, so what do you guys think about setting up a template and rules for the SHIPS threads as follows:-

DO:

* Keep your posts clear and concise.

* Be polite at all times.

* Agree to disagree. Accept that you won’t agree with everyone, and that others may interpret the books differently to yourself.

* Make your posts a reasonable length. There is no need to quote extensive sections from previous posts.

* Feel free to contact a moderator if you are offended for any reason. That’s what we're here for, and we will always take a complaint seriously. You are also welcome to contact us if you have any questions.

* Use the template (see below).

DON’T:

* Be rude in your post. Don’t flame or insult anyone else.

* Call anyone else names or personally attack anyone.

* State your opinion as fact – it is your opinion. If you disagree with someone else, that’s fine, but don’t tell them their opinion is wrong.

* Flog a dead horse. In other words, don’t keep making the same point over and over. Once you’ve stated a point, move on. If you wish to continue debating the same point with someone, take it to PM/email.

* Don't use ALL CAPS all over your post. If you want to emphasize something, try the bold or italics button instead; using ALL CAPS is read as shouting online.

* Quote extensive chunks of the Harry Potter books to illustrate a point; it takes up bandwith. If you wish to quote the books, then give the page number and a sentence or two, to indicate the passage to which you're referring.

* Take any debates seriously. We are all on the same side here – joined by our love of Harry Potter. There is no need for anyone to become defensive about their ideas and thoughts. This forum is to share these ideas in an informative, educational and hopefully creative way.

And thus use the following template (or slight variation of...)

Hmmm.

The template is pretty brilliant eh. But you know what, for me, all that (the Do's and Dont's) is really just a more "explained" version to what we already have available in the Rules and in this thread itself. Well whatever eh, if this is what it takes for people to FINALLY get it, go for it!!

Ashleigh, I couldn't agree with you more.

But the main of my little tussles on the Ships threads (the only section that I have ever been a little nasty) Is when people make silly comments and cannot substantiate them. Which causes me to go "hang on a second I know that this isn't true" which absolutely sets everyone against me!

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother to defend myself.

You know Dana, with all the Do's and Don'ts that you've stated clearly and precisely up there...I seriously can't see why members can't take some time reading them before diving in and start posting with what they think is right...

I mean, I could understand (just barely) if there are some of us here who didn't even bother to read all the rules outlined before posting their replies...and it's getting rather annoying seeing their post getting warning from mods over and over again... you see, although I'm not a regular poster in the SHIP thread, I *do* visit them and read all the posts...

I like the FictionAlley template as well...it would make the posts more readable and concise...

Yeah, no one knows what is going to happen except for JKR and if she won't tell us then we can only speculate. It is just a hobby, or something to love. It shouldn't be an obsession where you absolutely have to be right.

You know, rather than being rude in posts, I think some people have made it their job to send rude comments via PM.

I've already gotten hate-mail saying "YOU'RE STUPID" and rubbish like that for only posting like five times. It's such a war! There's really no need to rip each other apart if we're all fans of Harry Potter!

I really think it should be obligatory for members to read this topic because some just seem to ignore the pinned post and go on as they please.

OMG really?! Blimey!!

That's the thing eh, some people seem to take this place as some sort of a warzone...they miss the crucial point and that is we are all here because of our mutual love for Harry Potter.

You know what, as I've said earlier on in this thread, the Mods can put up all the rules in the world but it really depends on the individual...whether he or she WANTS to follow the rules. You know what I mean?

joesh, send a PM to Dana tell her about the hate-mail u've been getting. See if there's anything she can do...

I don't know ashleigh because I looked up this user and he or she has only made one post. However, his PM regarded a post I made a long time ago and so it may either be that this user is new and ignorant of the rules, or this is a user who just made up another username to send that message to me. It's only been one PM and it may just be that this person is just highly ignorant. But if it continues it'll definitely have to stop. The ships thread is hostile enough.

Don't give up defending yourself guys! It's your beliefs and so you have every right to erm believe them! With evidence though, of course. Fight for what you think is right without actually physically fighting others!

Please, please, please **gets down on bended knees** **...PM me if you ever have any kind of mail like that from anyone, Joe. And that goes for everyone else too. No one is going to know there's a problem if you put up with it in silence.

There are such a bunch of really great people using these forums at the moment and we're growing all the time and the last thing I (and I'm sure the other mods and Matthew too) would ever want in the whole world is to lose them because some complete and utter idiot is contacting them and wasting bandwidth with their inane, stupid, rude, bigoted or ignorant comments.

I'm sure I speak for the other mods too when I say that there is a zero tolerance of abuse of ANYONE on these forums, be it through posts or PM - PM is a gazillion times worse because it's cowardly, underhanded and is tantamount to an invasion of personal space.

I'm just not going to put up with that at all.

So please...if anyone ever has any problems, please let me or one of the other mods (taks, doomed_renascence, Ceres and meggiedodo) know about it and we'll do out best to sort it out.

can we get back at the topic instead of argue?

Ok, ron/hermy, harry hermy..
I want harry hermy, but I think theres to many evidence against this ship. I thin ron hermy will happen. In GoF, its so obvious.. ron being jalous at krum.. hermy neing jalous at fleur..

This is NOT a ships debate thread. This is an administration thread to discuss the differences between confrontation and debate. And we weren't arguing. This is the problem, you see. People seemingly failing to understand the fundamental difference between healthy debate and quarrels. **sigh**

If you want to contribute to the debate itself, Lynn, you'll find it HERE. And please make sure that you read the rules before you post. You'll find them on the first post on the first page.

You know, I also got one of those mails. It said something like "R U DUMB?! Ron is a dumba**".

When I was really new to this forum, I didn't read the rules, but it seemed kinda obvious to me not to go like "OMG!!! You're so wrong! It's never gonna happen!". I mean, you don't normally do that to your friends, do you?

Ah...*sigh* If only more newbies would be as considerate as you! .....When you were a newbie, that is!! Like we all were once...even me...but I took the time to read the rules first to avoid getting chewed out, so I really don't see why it's so hard for everyone else....I mean, when you join a club, you find out the way they run things first before jumping in and offending everyone....can you imagine entering a debating society and the first meeting telling everyone that their opinions are dumb and that you think the way they run things is **expletive**? I somehow don't think you'd last too long in that club.....

But unfortunately, not everyone is wonderful at expressing themselves without causing offense to others, but that's just the way of the world........they're gonna have to learn sooner or later though....unless they enjoy getting their noses broken....

If anyone else should get e-mails or PM's like that though, please let me know and I'll be...er...having strong words with them....

As of now, I'm wondering if under the pinned topics, the threads are only for the ships supporters?

I read a couple of posts before that Ashleigh said it was being contemplated, but her post was a while back.

Well, the pinned thread is basically for ships supporters... for them to discuss their same opinion on the ships. To agree with each other...

You can post in the opposite thread, if I'm not mistaken (consult the moderators to confirm in this)...as long as you did not offend or create any arguments in there... because any argument, any at all should be reserve in the H/Hr vs R/Hr official thread.

Contemplated? What do you mean? Sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow...

No, all the ships threads are ONLY for the people who support them - that's everything from H/Hr to Severus/Hr. I know it's irritating because sometimes people want to debate, but the trouble is that the resounding evidence is that people just have no idea how to express themselves without offending someone else. I guess it's because there are so many younger people posting here who haven't really had experience taking part in debates. I'm not blaming anyone...I mean, it's not really their fault, but as Mod, I get really tired of having to break up these little tiffs that go on all the time. I opened the poll to get people's input and they agreed for a separate debating thread for the one that's causing the main problems here, and I think everyone can guess which one that was.

But, I can't go creating separate ships threads for debates for all the possible combinations - that's just daft. So, the only other option was to make ALL the ships threads ONLY for the supporters, which seems to be working pretty well at the moment, aside from when the odd newbie who hasn't read the rules steps in a hornet's nest and gets everyone wound up.

I think supporters of each ship don't really want to debate with others about the likelihood of it happening anyway - they just want to chat to like minded fans. I mean, there wouldn't be much point in debating the likelihood of a Severus/Hermione ship, now would there?

I'm not getting at anyone in particular with this because I know it's mostly newbies doing it and I don't want to start jumping on people's backs straight away as soon as they get here, and I'm extremely tired of having to repeat myself, particularly when it sometimes seems as though no one pays attention anyway, so I think the simplest solution is this.....

To save arguments erupting and to save the mods having to type out the same things over and over again, any off-topic posts made in the Ships threads (e.g posts that criticise the R/Hr ship in the R/Hr thread...that's pretty clear, isn't it? ) will simply be deleted.

I think it's easier than arguing all the time about it.

ALL THE SHIPS THREADS, OTHER THAN THE OFFICIAL DEBATE ONE, ARE ONLY FOR SUPPORTERS OF THAT SHIP

Right.... It's gone straight to my head now...

Let me say this once and for all and no more...

ALL THE SHIPS THREADS, OTHER THAN THE OFFICIAL DEBATE ONE, ARE ONLY FOR SUPPORTERS OF THAT SHIP

Please... I seriously don't think I want to edit ALL bloody ships thread's title and add in the bloody line 'For supporters only'. I've got better thing to do with my time...

Now, I don't care if you're new or not from now on. If you break this rule, I'll delete your post straight away and give you an official PM. I hope I'm making myself very very clear now. Got that??

Erm...don't you think that's a little bit harsh? For the new people, I mean. I wasn't aware of the rule when I came here (I am now) and I could easily have made a little faux pas that might have gotten me into trouble without meaning to. People don't always read everything straight away. I didn't until today, but I'm glad I did now.

What's an official PM? Do we get chucked off or something?

I appreciate your opinion...

It's just that new members tend to step in, in any other ships thread they don't support and post a remark that stated how much they against it. And from experience, people seems to be rather 'protective' over things like that. This might invoke certain flaming/annoyed post to reply back. And this might continue and burst into a warzone.

It is apparent that there are a certain period of time where a mod might not be present at all and when they do, things might get a little out of hand already. I know that it's a rare case this might happen but precautions is better than cure. And old members should know better than replying/provoking with more flammatory post which is against the rules anyway.

At the end of the day, we just have to realise that romance and pairing is not everything in the series. There are loads more to enjoy about.

And I don't think I'm being harsh actually. We mods have put up with this for a long time and you have to admit that it gets rather annoying to have to remind them only to have new member stepping in and do it again.

An official PM is a PM containing warning from the mods regarding whatever rules you have broken. Nothing will happen to you after getting a PM like that except of course, in this case your post will be deleted (and maybe watchful eyes from the mods as well). Now, if you repeat in breaking the same rules (or any other rules, cause in that PM we would remind you to read all of them anyway), your warning level will be increase.

And anyway, it is always a wise thing to do to take a look around, read the rules and getting familiar with the surroundings first before posting so you know how things are handle here, don't cha think? We're a bunch of friendly people... really, we are. And we won't set loose our pack of werewolves until we're sure you've been reprimanded and aware of the rules before...

But okay, I think I will make a thread to state clearly of this rule again, and if there're still members who fail to follow them... oh, ye... help me god!

Okay. Well, I suppose I can see your point. I suppose it must get pretty irritating to have to repeat yourself all the time. It's just the first impression from a newbie, that's all.

Sorry if it seems like I'm butting in. I'll try not to do anything to deserving of one of those PM's.

I enjoy reading and engaging around, because my main intention is not about shipping, it's more to get to understand the series better. A romance is definitely interesting to follow and to discuss, although the main storyline is actually about good vs. evil. In my opinion, debates encourage exchange of views and that's good to enrich serious readers, not to say the least that it makes reading more enjoyable.

I have a sort of general question about shipping debates -- I'd just like to hear all your opinions, and I figure that I'm posting in the right topic since this seems to be the thread that inspired the pinned Harry/Hermione vs. Ron/Hermione debate.

Why do the Harry/Hermione and Ron/Hermione shippers tend to debate more than any of the other various cults? Why not the Harry/Hermione vs. Harry/Ginny debate thread? I'm interested that readers tend to be more fascinated by Hermione's future romances than Harry's (and certainly Ron's!) other prospective relationships.

As I said before, I just want to know what everyone thinks about this. Sorry if I posted in the wrong topic -- I had a sort of hard time deciding which one is appropriate.

No, this is the right thread, don't worry!

We did talk about this a while ago, but it seemed to be the R/Hr Vs H/Hr debate that seemed to spawn the most arguments. The others are rather peripheral to be honest and all centre around the crux of the matter which is who each of the trio will end up with so there's not really much fodder there to argue with.

The R/Hr Vs H/Hr debate thread has been leaning into a little H/G debating lately, but I haven't intervened because it was relevant to the debate in hand, so I'm not going to start blowing up if alternate ships are mentioned just as long as it doesn't get too off topic.

That being said, if you want me to create a H/G Vs H/Hr thread, I can do. Anyone else want one?

From my observation, the debate started with the future of the trio, so naturally it is H/Hr or R/Hr. I remember that H/G was started more like an alternative, in the degree of Draco/Hermione. After OotP it started to gain more supports, partly because R/Hr got more shippers. A thread for H/Hr vs H/G is certainly good to start, but personally I feel it will put more pressure to H/Hr shippers as they have to defend their theory from two attacks.
Instead, my suggestion is to start threads for:
- Who will end up with Ginny?
- Who will end up with Luna?
- Who will end up with Tonks?

Of course the current H/Hr vs R/Hr thread can be changed into:
- Who does Hermione love?

My 2 cents.

Hear! Hear!

MOD EDIT : Posts need to be at least THREE words long. Please read the rules.

Hear! Hear! Hear!

Welcome back Dana!

That being said, I think I have a possible answer to your question, Anthony Goldstein. The debate stems from people's desire for Harry to end up with Hermione. The books appear to show that Ron and Hermione are forming romantic feelings for each other - or, at least, Ron is forming them for Hermione - but never state these feelings right out. Also, many instances can be found where Hermione shows affection for Harry, and vice verse. Those who support H/Hr believe those instances show budding romance, where R/Hr supporters believe they only show the caring of friends who love one another.

Naturally, this leads to a debate as heated as whether Sirius is truly dead and gone or not, which is the only other subject I have found that is as universally disagreed upon. (Funnily enough, I am on the side that Sirius is alive and will return, which is generally supported by those who don't want Sirius to be dead. My reasoning, however, leaves feelings aside. (I never actually liked Sirius' character to begin with Not since finding out about the werewolf/Snape incident, and discovering he had not significantly changed since.)

Aw, thank you, LLTWK! Nice to know I was missed!

Avrilluver - if you're looking for your post, it's been moved to the Official R/Hr Vs H/Hr debate thread as it was a little off topic here.

I think you're right, Anthony Goldstein. Maybe readers are so interested in Hermione's possible love life because she's the only girl and that leads inevitably to think about a sort of a love triangle. Being the female member of the trio also means that most readers would love to see her ending up with Harry or Ron more than any other male character and, at last, I guess another good reason is that Hermione is by now the uncontested female protagonist, the heroine.

Anthony,

The debate was fanned by Jo Rowling herself, by carefully wording her question: Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

Somewhere out there, many are debating whether Luna loves Ron or Harry, or does Ginny love Neville, Michael, Dean or Harry?
I guess those threads are initiated by boys who want to know what mad things girls do.

lol, that's hot muggleview!

I still say it is because those who like Hermione as their favorite character want her to end up with Harry over Ron, and those who like Ron better than Harry, or feel equally about all three, are more willing to accept what the books appear to be leading toward.

But see, that is debate! Confrontation would be me saying, "No! You're wrong, and I'm right, so go sit on an egg and try to hatch a Basilisk!"

Big difference.

Not going to contradict you on this, but just adding something:

those who like Hermione as their favorite character, especially from the movies, want her to end up with Harry over Ron.

The movies or Steve Kloves did unjustice to Ron. His lines were transplanted to someone else, mostly Hermione's. It makes Hermione better than she is in the books and Ron worse! I got many comments that Ron is not up to Hermione and when I asked more, almost all pointed to the films!
Emma was a notch too cute for Hermione and Rupert was made a jester compared to Dan's cool character. Those three acted according to the script. Nothing too bad about their acting, but the presentation of the characters was different than from the books. Nothing wrong with Rupert's good look, but his portraying of Ron (based on the script) made Ron less suitable for the cool Hermione and cool Harry.

I'm glad that Ginny was portrayed by a veteran young actress with a pretty face. I hope, if she continues playing Ginny, she will grow up prettier still when the HBP or the 7th film is made, so Harry/Ginny is acceptable for many moviegoers.

Hey, I can't see that yellow too well. But it says "those who like Hermione as their favorite character, especially from the movies, want her to end up with Harry over Ron."



I agree