Wow! really like the house elf theory! I'm not sure that the existace would have remained silent with dobby chattering all the time, but I like it. DD could have rescued the elf since all grown masters were now gone and gave him/her a job at Hogwarts. Obviously there was no need for any of LV's supporters to be under the cloak - why hide? And no members of the ootp would stand by while the potters were killed. So this is pretty sweet thought - the elf i mean.

House elf huh? Lets talk this out. Well if so we would need to know more about the legal workings of a wizards will. The house elf would go to Harry and his legal guardian, the Dursleys, unless there is a rule about muggles and house elves, which I'm sure there is. Could you imagine? Hey! I want one!!!!

Or Sirius could have gotten possession since he was the godfather. But he went to Azkaban. Wouln't the elf have gone to his place and been there with Kreecher? *shudders at the thougth*

Or the Potters wrote a will including the possibility of something bad happening and gave the elf to DD. (the elf could have been delivered to DD under the invisibility cloak before their demise - as we have seen before, elves, in good intentions have done some stupid things, endangering people, trying to help.) DD swore the elves at the castle into silence as far as this particular elf's existance.

Now with this elf and Dobby the elfs could help the cause in huge ways. They could be a huge network of information - if we can get around the self mutilation thing- they could hamper the DEs. They could retain elves like Kreecher.

Interesting idea pumpkinjuice.

Thanks Prof,
For efficiency in the theory as to the inheritance issues you raise, and to factor in the whole Dobby/elf rights scenario by rooting it in the Potters' behavior, I am now inclined to think that giving the cloak to the elf constituted giving it clothing and setting it free. That it used the cloak to apparate to DD at the moment of the attack to tell him what was happening. It is possible then that this elf is out there making his or her way in the world, or dead, or working at Hogwarts (I still like the idea about Kreacher having suggested itself to DD by it having been used before). The elf might just choose to work at Hogwarts, like Dobby has.

Now, this elf would also account for something Dobby says about how famous and revered HP is among elves already, before he even knows elves exist. I never understood how this could be--unless word got out through the elves that the Potters did something good for elves before they died, that was particularly effected at the moment of their death and Harry surviving.

Given the cloak issues in the castle, I am heavily inclined to posit the presence of the Potter elf, free or not, at Hogwarts. It is also most tantalizing to think this elf knows something about horcruxes.

Oh, come to think about it--think of the wording of the note: "Your father left this in my possession before he died"--MY POSSESSION, not "with me" or "lent it to me" but MY POSSESSION. That would fit with the cloak being GIVEN as "clothes" for freedom. ooh I like that.....

I like your idea, it never occurred to me--this elf could be a real connection to the whole elfin parallel world to the wizards, enlisting them in this battle as LV is enlisting the giants. I like that contrast, in fact--big and little; dumb and clever.

Yeah, I had actually started a thread that got little attention and disappeared (sp?) about the different races/breeds and which sides they will fight on in the epic battle. Maybe I'll try again.......


Huh? I'm being a little dense today.

Interesting idea about settling the elf free in giving it the cloak, but then the cloak would belong to the elf. To free the elf you don't just hand it a piece of clothing you bestow it upon the elf as a posesion (again sp?). If an elf was freed every time it was handed a cloat or hat to be hung up there would been no house elves, only freed elves.

Perhaps, though, because the elf was given the cloak to use, even though only once.......HHHmmmmm. Perhaps.

I was talking about how DD suggests to Harry that he deal with Kreacher's possible treachery if left at Grimmauld alone by assigning him to Hogwarts. So the "idea" of an elf, for various protective reasons, being stashed at Hogwarts has been "used before" if DD already did this with James and Lily's elf.

As to the clothing thing, I thought I said something here but it was on the 'house elf thread' I started elsewhere.....I conjectured that the cloak was given and perhaps counted as a liberation, but that the elf would probably want visible clothes rather than invisible ones, and would (I hope) want Harry to have his dad's invisibility cloak that was a family heirloom. Elves have expressed a certain nobility despite their other foibles (including 'self-mutilation' as you say, lol), and I expect the Potters to have been decent to their elf so that it would want to pass on this cloak. That would also explain the language of "it is time it was returned to you" as opposed to "passed on to you" or something else--the elf is nobly giving the cloak back rather than officially being obliged to pass it on.

what would happen if it were none of the other responses, but instead, james gave it to dumbledore because he either

A) Wanted to see his family heirloom passed to harry in the event of his or lilys death (Meaning that they only gavae it to him for no other reason but it would be safest in DD's hands until harrys first year)

OR

He didnt want voldemort to get his hands on it in the even he gave it to his followers thus making it all the harder.

it could be as simple as that, or **** complicated as Petunia needing it for some other purpose that DD knew would happen but they didnt. who knows.

how would James know for sure that he and lily would die - that would mean that he didn`t trust Wormtail and that he knew that Harry will survive. I other case there is no point in giving cloak to DD to give cloak to Harry, except if they somehow knew for sure what will happened ( when LV wanted them death DD must have figured out why - he knew about the prophecy)

It`s unlikely but you never know


And about James and Lily's elf - I don `t have any new ideas but I like that theory. If so it would be really great that the elf would help Harry somehow.
And if he is in Hogwarts he certainly isn`t free elf because in GoF Dolby said that only he is cleaning Grif common room. other elfs didn`t want to because of Hermionas hats. and since he is a free elf and that didn`t bother him others are ordinary house elfs.

Unless all the elves were ordered not to talk about this elf. I still don't think the Potter's elf would be free. But it is probably forbidden to even mention it.

Infamous_Hat I have thought the same thing. What if it just is. There is no explaination etc. Sometimes we look for things when they aren't there. DD didn't call LV by his given name until later in the series because JKR wasn't ready to reveal it yet. Didn't like calling him LV because that gave him power. He called him Tom to his face all the time.

In other cases JKR gives us hints and clues to things. Maybe she thinks we are bored and need something to think about. She likes us to dance like puppets

In the case of the cloak she has said it is important how and why DD has it. On her website she has a topic called NAQ (never asked questions) here where she says no one has ever asked her why DD had James' cloak at the time of his death and it should have been asked.

So there is more to it than 'it just was'

Why did he have it?

Cris

Cris, does that make us her 'inferi'?

Wouldnt it be hysterical if the crucial significance of DD having the cloak when James died just is the fact that she didnt want to reveal the answer till the last book? That the crucial significance is hermeneutical, not constitutive, vis a vis the story?? How post-modern would that be?

I'm still on the fence about the elf being free or not free....Rebicka's point about Dobby saying he's the only one not worried about clothing is compelling, but it could be that James's elf is restricted on principle from cleaning the Gryffendor rooms precisely to avoid being seen by Harry or seeing Harry, especially given that Harry will have a cloak that invites sneaking around in the night when the elves are busy (one presumes).

LOL!!! yes and sometimes I feel like I am under the cruciatus in anticipation....

Interesting about Harry wandering under the cloak and perhaps finding the elf but...... How many times did he run into an elf. ONLY when one wanted to be seen. He didn't really know about them until Dobby right?

Elves have their own magic. They can be seen when needed or not seen...If this elf was under strict orders not to be found out because it could be detrimental to it's young master, then it would stay unseen unless it's master was in a life or death situation and being seen was the only way to save him. * breathe * was that confusing?

Again, I state that if all the evles, including Dobby, were told that no mention, what-so-ever, was to be made of this elf then they would not, outright or implied. Especially if DD gave this order. They all respected and followed his orders because he was so good to them.

Cris

This is one of the things that kind of gives me pause about my elf theory...


Since they do have their own magic, and are very good at not being seen, would an elf need the cloak to get from GH to DD the night of the attack? Unless the elf wasnt given the cloak to shroud itself but to shroud some object, or because the cloak is an important object. I just dont know.

I tried to start thinking about this question fresh, and a lot of the usual possibilities just dont strike me as 'crucial' to the story--DD needing it for some order member, some other wizard being present who nonetheless does not act, etc. So either it was in use by a non-wizard with an alternative assignment as to its use, or the cloak itself had to be gotten into DD's hands that night quite apart from the murder of Harry. I cant help but think the cloak issue is related to the missing day issue, or to some matter related to the secrecy yet observed in the books regarding what James and Lily did for a living such that they defied LV three times. Sure they might have been aurors....but I dont think that's it, its not important enough.

Did the fact that DD told Harry to bring his cloak the night of the cave visit shed any light on why DD had it when James died? There are many good reasons not to want Harry seen that night, but I dont know.....

Good job guys i really like the house elf idea but i'm not ready to give up on Harry going back in time and being under the cloak, i think it fits better but this elf thing is a new good thing to discuss though i do have some doubts and questions.
If the potters elf did indeed have the cloak and he wrote the letter to Harry (someone was talking about the difference in dd's writing and the writing in th note) then DD wouldn't have been in possession of the cloak. So i think there needs to be some reworking of that part of the theory.
Since i still like the harry under the cloak theory what if Harry gave it to the house elf and told him to give it to DD and to go into DD's protection since he knows that dd takes in spare house elfs and treats them nicely and would swear the rest of the elves to secrecy. (sorry guys i'm not giving up on the harry under the cloak theory :>) And if the elf knew there was an object of importance in the house or an evil object brought by LV then maybe he used his house elf magic to destroy the house and prtotect baby harry.
Also i was thinking about harrys scar and how (i think it was in this thread) maybe some of VL's dark magic got to harry but his actual soul could not enter Harry because of lillys protection and harry being full of love and goodness maybe because LV was "marking harry as his equal" some of VL's powers had to be trnsfered to Harry to give him the upper hand so to speak. But the powers he inherrited were not innherently evil like parseltounge. Even though it is generally connected to dark wizards i think it mattters more how you use the power and Harry has never used it as evil. I don't know just a brain spasm. I have some more questions on the elf theory but i can't remeber so i'll review the last few posts and think about it some more. But good theory guys i think parts of it fit very nicely.

vandwnbytheriver, you could be right about the possession question. But if the house elf gave it to DD upon arriving at Hogwarts then DD would have possesion, yes?

As far as the difference in handwriting I think that it was just one of those writing things. If JKR wanted it to be from two different people the handwriting would have been drastically different. Not slightly different. I think that when she was describing it the second time she didn't 'look up' the first description, or it just wasn't that important to her.

She also said on her website that it was important that DD had the cloak before James died. Not someone, not a house elf....

Cris

I think that DD having the cloak at the time goes back to the reason of why Sirius changed his mind about being secret keeper and gave Wormtail the job. I think that James knew that Sirius must go into hidding and so gave DD the cloak to give to Sirius. We know from OOTP that Sirius does not like to be in closed quarters and perhaps this was one of the reasons he changed his mind at the last moment. I think Sirius preferred to be fighting Voldemort out in the open than to be hidding away.If am not mistaken I think that Sirius was planing to go into hidding himself as soon as the Fidelius charm was performed(or maybe I made that up). Lets also remember that in POA we find out that Sirius believed Lupin to be the traitor and not Wormtail. Since Wormtail betrayed the Potters almost as soon as he was made secret keeper than we can assume that Dumbledore never got around to give the cloak to Harry therefore the "your father left this in my possession" comes in to play.

I hope thats not confusing!

My view comprises an answer to the possession issue, which Prof has stated pretty clearly here--the elf had it as the Potters were being attacked, went to DD, who then had it "at the time of James' death". And thats what her website says--why did DD have the cloak "at the time" of James and Lily's death, not before. The note in the book says "before". The interview says "at the time". Granted, DD having had the cloak at any time between the deaths and it going to Harry wrinkles my theory, now that I think of it, but this may not be insurmountable. In, I think, the same interview, she also coyly refuses to answer the question, "Was someone else at Godric's Hollow that night?" (I forget if the cloak was in that question, I'll look it up later....), suggesting strongly that there was. But she has ruled out several options as to who it might be. Hence my insertion of an elf.

I still maintain that the books yield a pattern of slight differences in handwriting descriptions between characters that we KNOW are distinct from one another (DD vs. Snape, for instance). So that leaves the logical space to apply the same principle here, suggesting that there are different note-writers in the case of the anonymous notes vs. DD's actual notes.

WOW! I like that. It is logical, simple and founded in the books. Yes Sirius was going into hiding too. It's a good explaination

But

There still remains the question of why is it significant? Perhaps Sirius had a plan? Perhaps Sirius was supposed to meet up with the Potters but never got there?

Cris

Ok i really love this thread so i thought in the interests of keeping things moving i would try and lay out what we know from cannon and JK's interviews and some of the theories that seem to stand so i can get my thoughts in orde and maybe it will help you guys too.

Ok things we know:
So we know it is of great importance that DD had the cloak "at the tinme of the Potters death"
But the note left with the coak to harry syas your father left this in my possesion before he died (condradictory? An important clue maybe?)
The handwriting on the note seems to be different then the discription of DD's handwriting.
The cloak must have some important significance other then just being in DD's possesion it had to have been being used for something or passed to DD for some purpose ect. What is the significance?
DD tends to disclose information only when he thinks it relevant not when he learns of it so DD may be hiding something from us in regards to the cloak.

Ok standing theories:
James gave the house elf/ or the house elf picked up the cloack after the potters died then brought it to DD therefore DD would have had it at the time of the potters death and the potters house elf gave harry the cloak in his first year and wrote the note that says that James left it in his possesion "before he died" therefore the different wording and different handwriting.

Harry went back intime to witness his parents death and understand what happened that night, why he surrvived, what happened to VL and then visited DD in the past telling him to give the cloak to Harry in his first year because he would need it. DD knowing how important it is not to mess with the past never told anyone including harry and it also accounts to his calvalier attitude at privet drive the night after The potters died because he knew that Harry was ok and had taken on the responsibility of defeating VL.

The cloak was being used for the order for some purpose unknown to us, possibly to hide sirius or wormtail or another member for a secret mission etc.

I think those are the three main theories (sorry if i left anyones out) i was just hoping that might make my mind make connections and i just thought of something so maybe it did work

What if James gave DD the cloak to hide Trewlany after she made the prophecy. She had to have been a target of VL's since he knew she made the prophecy so until DD could get her under the protection of Hogwarts maybe he put her up in a hotel and gave her the invisibility cloak to travel with and since she is so how should i put it? self centered, eclectic , dramatic and believes very easily in "mystical, off the wall things. So maybe DD played to that part of Trewlanys personality and made up some story that made her important to make her use the cloak i bet she would have bought it if it fed her ego.

I do not picture Dumbledore going to such trouble for Trewlaney. I think in fact (correct me if I am wrong) that DD told Harry that Trewlaney did not know that she had made the prophecy about Harry and (correct me if I am wrong again) I think he said that it would be ¨unwise to enlight her¨of such news.

I think that perhaps JK might have worded things as to make it confusing to all of us and keep us on our toes. Lets analyze her words for a second. she said that it was important that DD had the cloak ¨at the time of James death¨ and the note said ¨before¨. What if what JK meant was that it was important that DD already had James cloak at the time of his death and not ¨during¨james death which is highly stipulated. This I believe would make more sense and therefore the theories about members of the order doing some secret mission or wormtail hidding come more into play. Or maybe I just do not know what I am talking about Hope I did not confuse you guys or girls.

You left out the petunia-cloak theory, which I am rather fond of, and got quite a bit of play for a while earlier in the thread and in the previous one. You can click the link in my sig for a full explanation, but the short version is that Petunia was closer to her sister than we've seen and that petunia was under the cloak and witnessed the potters dying. It gives us a witness of the events of that night (which I think is important), spares us from any more tricky time-travel stuff, explains how Petunia was important, and explains the cloak.

-Fish

Hey Fish,
Ya know I didn't buy into the Petunia theory until I just re read you link. Maybe.

I do have a hard time with her reaction to Harry. If he was the last living remnant of my sister I would hold him precious and spoil him like my own. I would make sure he would need or want magic .

It would explain the importance of the cloak. It would not explain how DD got it before James' death though. At the time of yes, before no.

Petunia would have been scared to death and possibly physically ill. She didn't seem that way. If we follow the discussion we had about the conversation between her and Vernon about the strange things going on after LV disappeared then she was distracted and irritated but not openly distressed.

Perhaps there was a memory altering charm used on her?

She knew about owls but how did she know how to get one etc? Would DD have brought her to Hogwarts?

very interesting ideas.

Cris

I'm sorry savingharry!! The petunia theory is a huge one and i did forget it i guess its cause its been out of the discussion for the last couple pages but its an awesome theory nonetheless and i shouldn't have left it out.



I think you missed my point. DD wouldn't have told trewlamy about the prophecy because it would make her safer (as is stated in the books) and i never implied that he would have told her about the prophecy. What i'm saying is she had to be a target for the DE's or VL and needed protection so instead of telling her about the prophecy he tells her some story that plays to her personallity weaknesses and ego to make her use the cloak until she gets to hogwarts becuase if VL or a DE were to find her they could get into her moind and find out the rest of the prophecy, see that snape was lying, have more info then DD wanted them to have. So yes, i definitly think DD would go to that much trouble to protect trewlany. I mean he's kept her at hogwarts for over a decade even though he puts no stock in divination and she's basically a hack except the few times she gives actual prophecies which shes not even aware of. I don't even really like this theory that much but i believe that there had to have been some extra protection put on trewlany until she could get to hogwarts or else like i said before catastrophic things could''ve happened from trewlanys capture.

vandwnbytheriver: Thanks for explaining that I definitely did mis interpret what you meant I guess DD did need to protect Trewlaney but I am still very confused about JK wording. I guess I will find out when I read the final book.

Well, in response to that, I shall provide you with another link:

http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry308809

That's Petunia's reaction, and my interpretation of it. It seems to me to be entirely possible that she could be reacting in a way other than how Vernon is interpreting, because we can't take his persepective on her as being nessesarily accurate.

-Fish

Yeah, we had that discussion over there.

I concede that the interpretation is all in the deliverance and I may read it one way while it was intended another.

It's possible......

I was working from the assumption that the potter had an owl there. Or, perhaps James's mirror? Perhaps that's how that comes into play?

I don't know if Albus would bring her to hogwarts. No real need, really. Of course, we don't know what Petunia did all day, so who knows. Perhaps he wanted information. But that seems too difficult to work into what we know about the story.

-Fish

Wait a minute....someone remind me why everyone knew so quickly that LV was gone so as to be celebrating?

And why did James and Lily (according to Harry's memory, anyhow) not attempt any magic in response to LV's arrival? No counter-curses, no half-articulated expelliarmis, just lots of typical defensive verbiage--"Take Harry and RUN!" "No, not Harry, kill me".

Run? Kill me (when she knew that Harry was his ultimate target)? Did she not know the content of the prophecy so as to establish what LV's urgency was all about? But even if she didnt, why would she even try to reason with LV? Why no wand-work? I cannot help but think there is some connection between the cloak and the way things transpired that night. And DD having a history of correspondence with Petunia puts her right in the middle of things as to how DD knew what had happened so quickly, how she is party to a protection charm even tho she never sets eyes on DD in the part of the story we see, but more importantly right here, in terms of what was going on prior to that fateful night. Could Petunia have been party to something that purposely or accidentally deprived James and Lily of their magical abilities to protect themselves with wands? Did she negotiate a magic-less lifestyle for James and Lily in return for being willing to help DD keep tabs on them? Were James' and Lily's words indirect modes of communication to Petunia who was hiding under the cloak in some other part of the house (a way of saying 'it's happening')? I'm stumped....

My head is full of other things right now--can someone tell me if the timeline would have permitted Petunia to be absent from home during a decent chunk of Harry's missing time post-departure from GH? Seems quite likely, but for some reason I just got iffy on it. What I'm thinking is that she was perhaps apparated to the Leaky Cauldron (which is where I think Harry spent part of his day; if not there then somewhere in Diagon Alley) for the performance of the charm to protect Harry. She may have been apparated from GH by my hypothetical elf, under the cloak, then apparated back home before Vernon was any the wiser. I just don't think DD would have been able to complete the blood-tied charm in the absence of one of the participants (just as the unbreakable vow requires hand-holding).

Was James talking to Lilly or Petunia when he said "Take Harry and run!"?

I had assumed that they had tried some magic on LV but realized it was no use, could have been affraid a stray shot would hurt Harry or something.

But now, maybe they were using magic and the shout was to Petunia and not Lilly.

Pumpkinjuice, slow down. I really think the explainations will not be so complicated. IF Petunia was there she saw what happened, contacted DD, was removed, possibly memory charmed and put back at home.

[Yes she could have been missing from the house, Vernon was sleeping, but Dudley was a baby and we know how she treats him. Would she be away from him for that long?]

Hagrid took Harry, Sirius showed up, saw what happened and gave Hagrid his bike. Sirius went out to find Peter. Hagrid was probably told to stay away for a few hours to make sure no one went looking for him at the Dursleys.

The only one we really need to account for is DD. Where was he? As far as I know there was no account of his time.

Pumpkinjuice had a great question about how did everyone know about LV being gone so soon. It was all rumors, no one knew what had happened but everyone was sure LV was gone. How???

I had had a theory that Peter was there, however, he couldn't have told anyone because Sirius taunted him in PoA about the DEs in Azkaban wanting to get their hands on him becuase they thought it was his fault....If he had witnessed and gone and told people, they would have know he didn't have anything to do with it.

I asumed DD would have gone to the ministry to tell them and discuss what to do next, with the exception of Harry, however, now knowing his opinion of the ministry I doubt that. Perhaps he went to the Centaurs?

I know sorry.

The cloak. Still the other big mystery.

If Petunia was there and was using the cloak, then James would have had to give it to DD to go get her and give it to her to use (following JKRs clues). DD would have gotten it back from Petunia after the Potters died. So you could say that DD was given it by James before he died but it doesn't feel right .

I can understand the thing about not feeling right. Sometimes your gut is an important truth test, though not always!

I would say that I do not think that petunia would have been under the cloak going to the potters. If she was there, then she could merely have used the cloak which was already at the house. but, you are right. Petunia would have had to have given it back to dumbledore. Which means the two of them would have needed to have been face to face somewhere. This, of course, goes back to the 24 missing hours...

-Fish

I know that you probably already thought of that and dismiss, but I still think DD could have been there. It bothers me how DD could have been sure that LV isn`t death at the night of Potters death. He didn`t know about horcrux - correct me if I`m wrong but wasn`t he figured that out because of diary?
So why couldn`t he be there?
But, there is still the fact that DD can make himself invisible without cloak.


I thought of that too. I don`t think petunia would leave dudley alone for so long (not just petunia, I don`t think mother would have left her child and went somewhere) She would told Vernon where is she going for two reasons :
- she tells Vernon everything ( I think, in OotP when DD reminds Petunia that Harry has to stay with them, Vernon knows about Petunia`s deal with DD because when she said that Harry is staying he didn`t object.)
-what if something would happened to Dudley? she would said someone where to contact her!



I was just reading HBP and, when DD comes to Dursley`s house Vernon opens the door, DD enters but he doesn`t introduce himself. Then petunia comes out of kitchen and DD sais:
"Albus Dumbledore" and JKR comments that DD interduced himself because Vernon forgot to interduce him.After that he said Petunia that they communicate with letters before…..

I know it`s bit of the topic but what if Vernon meet D.D. before not Petunia.

I know there is probably a topic someplace about this but I haven't been able to find it (if one of you knows please post or pm the link).

Sirren and I have been PMing about DDs mutterings while drinking the potion in the cave. They sound suspiciously like he is reliving something terrible that he witnessed and or participated in.

"I don't want...Don't make me..."
..."don't like...want to stop..."
:no..."
"I don't want to ...Idon't want.... Let me go..."
"Make it stop, Make it stop"
Screams
"No, no, no, no I can't, I can't, don't make me. I don't want to..."
"It's all my fault, all my fault""Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..."DD began to cower as though invisible torturers surrounded him.
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."
fell forward screaming
"Please, Plsease, please, no more..."
"I want to die! I want to die! Make it stop, make it stop, I want to die!"
"KILL ME!"

At first I thought it was just hallucinations. In re reading it it could sound like DD was at the Hollow, possibly under the Imperius curse or bound in some way and made to watch.

I really don't like thinking of DD being so frightened and begging like that. LV was the one affraid of DD not the other way around. If DD had been actively there Things would have been very different between them.

Perhaps DD witnessed things and was powerless to stop them. That would have frightened him terribly. A wizard so great unable to use his magic. But why?

He wouldn't have needed the cloak but would James have known that? Maybe, there was supposed to be a sentry under the cloak that night. It was supposed to be Peter but he never showed to get the cloak (because he went straight to LV) DD knew something was wrong and he tried to warn them only to wittness what happened without being able to help.

The "I know I did wrong" part really bothers me though. That sounds more like a dream. Also being surrounded by torturers is strange. A circle of DEs? But not at the Potters......confused

Thoughts?

Yes it does sound like DD was made to watch Potterss death. And that would explain how he knew what happened that night, why LV isn`t death.
It almost looks like that he was the one who betrayed Potters, but thats crazy idea!!

MAybe DD had to give cloak to Peter, and trying to do so he figured out that peter is traitor - that why he instantly accepted idea that Sirius isn`t the one who betrayed harry`s parents and helped HArry and Hemione to rescue Sirius. He hurry to warn the Potters but it was to late (he saw their death but he couldn`t helped because LV made some protection shield around the house?! or something like that).
And for "I know I did wrong" maybe he meant that he had to be Potters Secret-Keeper. Maybe he thought that would make a difference ( I don have any good idea at the time about that).

Okay, I have not yet worked the cloak into the night of the attack. That part might click in the middle of the night forcing me to get out of bed to reread something else, which is making me crazy. ha!

Rereading the end of OOTP with the premuse DD was at the Potter's the night of LV's attack, it appears to me DD feels he failed Harry....again. Pg 844, last sentence,
"Harry looked up at him and saw a tear trickling down Dumbledore's face into his long silver beard."

DD speaks of falling into his own trap, one he had foreseen and told himself he must avoid.
Pg 838 he says,"I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your piece of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act."

I think DD's plan was in motion from the beginning, before the birth of Harry. It must have been DD's plan to keep the child being born safe, perhaps too Neville. I don't know. Taking into account DD's ramblings after drinking the poison in the cave, it seems to me DD's boggart must be people being tortured/hurt/killed, etc., and his worst memory was the night of the Potter's attack.

If DD was present, why he was unable to stop LV I cannot say. I do not believe DD was under the cloak, I am beginning to suspect the protection placed on the Potter's was insufficient and it was DD's protective magic spells, etc. DD feels he failed them then and failed Harry now by not telling him the truth. Although I don't think DD came fully clean with Harry before Snape killed him. DD still held information back from Harry, and that is what we will find in Deathly Hallows.

My theory is not rocket science, of course. But, for me, it is the only thing that makes sense...even with the open holes.

DD continues to tell LV that there are things far worse than death, why? Because DD is living proof of that. Death would almost be a release for a man of his wisdom and experience were he to be filled with guilt for his own failure. Especially on such a grand scale. Makes me sad for him all over again.

Perhaps James gave DD the cloak because DD knew LV was coming for Harry. DD was at their house before things went down with the cloak to flee with Harry. For unknown reasons events did not unfold as planned. DD has the cloak, LV and Death Eaters arrive, the fight ensues, DD is unable to leave with Harry (why? I dunno) and the Potter's die.
Hagrid comes into the house and takes Harry on Sirius's bike away from the carnage not knowing DD is there invisible. Yet, DD is there disabled under the cloak. That could explain how he knew what happened, that LV was defeated and reduced to (what is he called here) Vapormort. He saw the rebound of the AK curse off Harry.

All this unfolded and he was powerless for reasons unknown to stop it, alter it, change it ... but he did SEE it. He would then have been given the cloak before James' death and would thus still have possession of it after, too.

My theory might very well be the most farfetched of them all, and I was looking for simplicity. Hmmmph.

Looking at that passage, especially the language, with my head full of my thoughts from earlier this morning when I had been posting something about Aunt Petunia, it struck me: Of all the people we have met, that kind of speech fits best in the mouth of Aunt Petunia. How would DD be having her speech? Because it became his worst memory when he got her memory into a pensieve and took a spin in it.

Here's what I'm thinking: Aunt Petunia, as many have speculated, was there that night. She sees what's going on, and is put under the cruciatus curse or some other curse that forces her to watch what's happening, and starts begging LV in those words a few posts above. What do the words refer to? Aunt Petunia thinks it's all her fault that LV found them, perhaps--she could not know that Pettigrew had ratted out the Potters. She may have been coming toward the house with groceries or something, and LV happens to show up and see her going in. So she thinks its her fault that he finds them. The begging seems to be coming from a consciousness that does not face a challenge bravely--it comes from someone who would rather look away from difficult realities, someone more comfortable with denial than confrontation. But when she sees her sister is really about to be killed, she shows bravery--shows a willingness to put herself in Lily's place (this is why the charm by DD can work--Petunia does have the love in her).

Perhaps she had the cloak on at some point in the night, or had it over her but was tortured anyway (I imagine LV can see thru them). I'm still inclined to see her and an apparating elf as the means of getting the cloak to DD such that DD had both the cloak and the information about what had just happened; on this reading the main mystery is how or why she wound up leaving Harry there?

The other thing the words sound like, which someone mentioned on another thread, is a child begging for some torment to stop (like the kids LV tortured in the cave as a boy); but a child is unlikely to ask for someone to "kill me" instead of someone else.

OMG, could DD have been hit with the Petrificus Totalus by someone? Thinking he was invisible and safe but then got blindsided?

He had to watch the whole thing (like Harry had to watch DD die) being completely unable to lift a finger. Screaming out all those things in his head while it was going on.

The potion caused him to relive it and finally voice all his angst, frustration, pain etc.

I don't know about the DEs being there because they didn't know what had happened to LV. I think if anyone was there it was Peter, as I have said before. But then what is the comment about being surrounded by toruturers....

Great theory Sirren, it is growing on me.

Cris
Edited with a new thought.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sirren keeps putting these things in my head.


That WAS DD's plan. From the beginning. DUMBLEDORE chose the child. He set it up. He was there and let the Potters die so that the profecy could be completed and he could make sure that LV was destroyed by moulding the child and making sure that nothing corrupted him.

Harry was kept away from the wizzarding world so that he was not spoiled. Placed him with the Dursleys. Probably gave Petunia directions on how to raise him.

Brought him to Hogwarts when it was time and spoon fed him all the information, experiences, ideas, thoughts he would need to succeed.

He has made terrible mistakes and has had great regrets. His worst memory is having to stand by and watch good people, dear friends being sacrificed for the greater good.

Wowzers. The room is shaking. My foundations are shifting. I need to go think about this. I know it's but...

What if James gave DD the cloak earlier so he could use it to aid the Longbottoms? Nevilles parents were aurors so they could have been out searching for DE's. If it's Neville and his grandmother, maybe the cloak was there to hide them. I am thinking there was no one hiding under the cloak at the Potters, maybe it was the Longbottoms. From the prophecy it could have been either boy.

Thinking of the other theories, the Potters could have had a house elf who ended up with DD. There were no other relations - Sirius is NOT a relation. Elves can do some magic - Dobby sure pops in and out when he wants. They would be good have on your side, remember Lucius being blown off his feet by Dobby.

I think there is more to Petunia, but find it next to impossible she was at the Potters'. I just don't see her as the visiting witches and warlocks kind of gal. Also does anyone think she is leaving Vernon and Dudders (was he born yet?) alone for anything?

Trelawney would have been at Hogwarts wouldn't she? She gave the prophecy in Hogsmead and I thought that DD stashed her there after.

Hagrid, although unable to fight magicaly would never let himself be hidden when there was trouble around.

We all know that JKR said it wasn't Severus, and if DD already had it how could any one else have been under it? That timeline just won't work.

I believe that Harry will be the one to fight LV in the end, but could the prophecy still have something to do with Longbottom? Perhaps a lucky shot in the nick of time?

Cris:

I believe you might be very adeptly plugging the holes for me. What a simple concept!

OOTP Pg. 837, "Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine...An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. And yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it. I alone could prevent this, so I alone must be strong..."

He had come to love Harry deeply. However, it was not his fate to save Harry from Voldemort. No, Dumbledore's fate was to watch Harry meet Voldermort and let the events play out as they were meant to be.

Dumbledore just stacked Harry's deck with Aces the best he could. He kept him alive, he molded him, as you said, into the opposite of Voldermort. Of course he's proud! Harry is more than he could have hoped for. He even says it OOTP Pg. 839, "I never dreamed I would have such a person on my hands."

Dumbledore has been waiting for this for years. Of course he had James' cloak: he set them up.

As far as the Petunia theory, I was just rereading the beginning of PS trying to get info for my new theory when I found a few damaging lines.

p.2 Petunia hadn't met her sister for several years. Mrs. D. pretended she didn't have a sister.

Also it mentions that Petunia gets upset with the mention of Lilly before they died.

After reading those I am not swayed to think that Petunia was there out of sisterly love or any other reason unless coerced.

Here's a thought I had. The Dursley's had to have a secret keeper of sorts. Wouldn't the wizarding community want to find the boy that lived and lavish him with laud and honor? It wouldn't be so hard for them to find Harry but they didn't. No one seemed to know where he was. Could Dd have been that secret keeper?

Yes, Dumbledore had to be the secret keeper, if there was one. He was secret keeper for the Order and for 12 grimwald place. This is in the books somewhere...oh yes, it is in "Spinners End" when Snape tells Bellatrix he is not the secret keeper...you know how the enchantment works.

Petunia is important, but only because what she may have witnessed, I think. She may know Dumbledore was there that night..?

DD being the Dursley's secret keeper would explain a bit of what might be behind "remember my last" (in terms of it referring to previous communication).

I'm not myself comfortable with the Petunia-present-for-the-deaths theory; but in so far as the first chapter is kind of Vernon's take, can we take the descriptions of Petunia's relationship with Lily as utterly true/accurate? I'll have to take a look at those comments in context, and maybe look back at Fish's Petunia theory description in more detail.

This last exchange about DD makes me wonder--if he was there, and invisible, and did nothing, we are left with the burning question of why? Is it possible that the DD who was there was a DD who had gone back via time-turner to witness those events? Wouldnt DD have done so, really, to find out more about what on earth transpired that night? That crucial night where everything got going? He might have gone back there shortly after events transpired, or even years later. Either way, he would not be able to intervene without disrupting time-lines, and that would explain his inaction while present. It would still be terribly painful for him to watch his friends die, even tho it had already happened. I don't think Harry's incident with the Patronus that saved himself and Sirius stands alone as the time-turning plot element, and it does raise this general point about intervention vs. non-intervention.

My main hesitation about that speech being DD's is the words themselves--they are so childish. There's part of me that's more inclined to think he is drinking in other people's memories (the bowl is like a pensieve), or reliving memories of his much earlier life.

Je suis tres confusee.

The very beginning is not the POV of Vernon. It is third person about the Dursleys. The quotes are the narrators comments.

I'm very confused too. If DD orhestrated (sp?) this whole thing, chose and moulded Harry It changes my whole view of things.

Also, as Sirren pointed out to me, DD trusts Snape, has trusted Snape since Snape came to him when he discovered that Lilly was one of the people involved in the prophecy. Snape has been in on this all along too. That is why DD trusts him. This thing explains a lot. I am working on a 'formal' writeup. Give me a little longer....

I'm still trying to find out if the Longbottoms were in hiding too....

Cris

It does make sense that DD went back through a time turner or through someone's memory, since he did nothing to alter the events.
I don't think there is a secret keeper for the Dursleys, why? Muggles are pretty low on the importance list of most wizards and are pretty much misunderstood anyway. Who would have had any reason to think that Harry went to the Muggles?
I don't know about the idea of DD setting up the Potters to line up the future according to prophecy, it is something to think about tho.

Scenario:

Pick any maniacle mass murderer of the times. He has resistance. He hears that there is a child born to defeat him and he goes to find this child and kill him.

The child somehow stops him but disappears. This child has saved the world from WWIII. This child has ended oppression, ended, crime, ended murder.

What would we do? Would we leave no stone unturned looking for him? Would we not want to make him special? Would we not want to put this child on a pedestal, thank him etc?

They did not do it. They just accepted the fact that Harry had disappeared.

if there were a secret keeper, would spell work only on wizards or on muggles to? if on muggles to wouldn`t that be a big trouble for Dursleys?
in other hand if it works only on wizards, it would explain how Rufus Scrimgeour could`t visited Harry at Dursleys.

And about DD being in GH that night. I think he was there and he guilty conscience (maybe because he didn`t do anything, like he let somebody to die??? or something like that).
When DD speaks with Malfoy on the tower in HBP he sais that killing someone isn`t easy as innocents believe, like he speaks from expirience - like he blame himself for someones death.

I like the idea of DD going back to GH to witness the events via time turner that could eplain his reaction in the cave after drinking the potion. But what i like better is that they knew LV was coming contacted DD and DD came a runnin to GH the potters thought they had enough time to get Harry out of there. James gave DD the cloak DD made himself invisible and just as this is happeneing LV bursts in DD is in the other room James shouts "grab harry and leave" ( however he says it) to DD but LV gets to the room too fast Lilly knowing that DD would defend them and possibly die trying knew that it would be better for her to die then for DD to die since he was the "greatest wizard of their time" and sent that same spell that DD did on harry on the tower to DD in GH and DD had to watch the whole thing go down. But Lilly knew she would die and once she died the spell would be lifted off DD and then he could grab harry and apparate but something else happened lillys sacrifice saved Harry and DD stood in amazement as Harry was saved from the AK curse by love and thats why DD kne what happened that night. I don't know far fetched maybe???

sounds pretty good vandwnbytheriver, however

I'm still not abandoning my theory in progress but working with yours:

I don't think that J & L knew LV was coming, perhaps DD found out (through Snape?) that LV was on his way and came running. Who knew about the house except L & J and Peter, DD. Sirius and Hagrid went to Godrics Hollow after the destruction. Either they knew or once the house was destroyed the spell was gone.

DD didn't need the cloak to become invisible BUT perhaps he needed it for Harry.

I don't think Lilly would sacrifice herself for DD, Harry, yes, DD no. Throwing the Petrificus Totalus on him was a thought I had but she would do anything to save Harry. Why would she freeze DD. I would have taken Harry and let DD face LV, my POV as a mother.

Cris

Agreed Professor, Lilly is not going to sacrifice herself for DD, her only thought at that time was her child. DD didn'nt need a cloak, and if he were there in real time does anyone believe that he would have stood by or that the Potters would waste time saving or hiding DD? NOPE!, I don't think DD was there, and where ever he was he had James' cloak. I still think there had to be someone else that needed protection. If anyone has abetter thought than Nevile, possibly alone with Granny, I'd love to hear it.

I think DD or other Order members had to arrive quickly though, why leave the boy alive? Were the DE's so suprised? I can see wormtail splitting pretty quick, if it was only he and LV I guess that would make more sense, someone had to get LV out of there quick.

Like the thread, but DD couldn't have been there.

It is important to note that Sirius went to James' and Lily's cottage after checking on Peter in his hideout. Finding him gone WITHOUT a struggle. Sirius himself was going into hiding, too. Sirius figured out Peter was the traitor, but too late. He flew on the motorbike to the cottage too late. Hagrid showed up too, because they argued over who was going to take Harry. Funny, DD knew they were dead and sent Hagrid to get Harry. How did he know?

I'm sorry i meant that DD was supposed to use the cloak on Harry to get him out of there but LV arrived too early through his own magic DD was invisible without the cloak when VL came in. Sorry i guess i wasn't too clear cause alot of people commented on that.
I agree there are alot of holes in this theory but i do believe that lilly would sacrifice herself for DD she almost assuredly would not sacrifice Harry for DD but sacrificing herself for DD seems plausible because DD is and was such an important, powerful, almost savior like wizard. I know JK said that lilly couldn't have known that her sacrificing herself would give harry protection cause it had never happened before but what if that was her way of weasling out of the answer because DD knew of the magic and maybe even knew that LV was going to give lilly a chance (maybe ecause of the whole snape lilly theory and snape told DD, thats why he knew VL was coming and apparated or whatever to tell the potters) and they talked about the possiblity of if DD couldn't get Harry out in time the chance of the love spell was the only hope they had of saving Harry. I don't know i'm not even too sure about this theory but someone was there and it was someone important, connected to DD and possibly the order or else how could everyone in the order have known so fast?

I like to point out a few things about Dumbledore. He is omniscient to a lot of things but how he gets his information we are never told. The cloak perhaps is not as important but it is still significant. We know Petunia could not have been there because she had a baby of her own to take care of but yet has anyone ever noticed that she doesn't treat Harry nearly as horrible as Vernom. She also freaks and screams in the morning when she finds Harry on her door step. The narrator has Harry always getting on the wrong side of Uncle Vernom but we never see an ugly discussion between Harry and Petunia (well if you count her outburst in book 1). I believe the Durleys are in fact protected by the Fidelius Charm because for the reasons a few stated in previous posts(about wanting to glorify Harry) in fact this was DD main reason to put him in muggle care so he could take in what he was until he was ready (didn't want Harry to become big headed).

I think that DD was protecting the Longbottoms with the cloak and his mistake was not being there for the Potters.

Petuina could not have seen the death of James and Lily. I do not think that someone was wearing it that night because DD said that James had left it in my posession before he died. And James could not have given the cloak to DD the night he died. If they planned it all that is a good idea but it doesn't seem right. It is a mystery