I do agree that there could indeed be more to the usage of the cloak than merely storing it for Harry.

Question for you: in CoS how did Dobby find out all the information he knows about Harry?
Dobby lived in the house of the Malfoys. There is no possible way anyone in that household spoke of Harry's power or goodness. How did Dobby come to believe Harry is powerful and good? Yes, he did not die as a baby and Voldemort was temporarily vanquished, but Harry being good as a person?

Do the house elves camp together in the summers? (joking)

here i must agree that spelling is important but i must also say that i have only scanned the data given by other users and after reading the data fully i hope to compile a large report

Well, jokes aside, Dobby does make it clear that elves have contact with one another when he talks to Harry while still in Lucius's service--he comments on Harry's general status among elves, plural, not just himself. So there must be some medium of communication. Perhaps Dobby confers with the elves that he is sent off to meet when Lucius takes him somewhere, as he did at Hogwarts that day. Why, by the way, did Lucius have Dobby in tow? Maybe elves do just meet up in the street when their pompous owners are doing things with them along for carrying things or something.

So, if Dobby knows something of the person of Harry Potter, either Dobby has heard it from some other elf, or overheard other people talking while in the presence of Lucius (like at the Ministry, for example). But who would these people be? Either Arabella Figg, who's been watching Harry during the Dursley years, or someone involved in the events of Harry's first year at Hogwarts. Or, from the elves at Hogwarts themselves.

Harry was partially uncovered when the train moved. Tonks could see part of him, I believe.



I like this and see your point about the cloak being used to hide something other than DD.

When I was reading HP Lexicon about timeline of the Marauders in school to see when Snapes worst memory and the really bad practicle joke were I discovered something else that might lend to Regulus' hideout.

1977 Sirius had gotten his own place after graduation with the money his uncle left him. What happened to this place? We don't hear ANYTHING about it after do we?

1979 Regulus is supposedly tortured and murdered.

1981 Late in the year Sirius is sent to Azkaban.

Could it have been hidden and Regulus be there? The cloak could have given him some freedom. Sirius could have been trying to teach him to become an animagus but got set up before much was accomplished.


As far as the quote by JKR referencing only James and his deat, the cloak was James' and not Lily's she had little to do with it. Just as James' death had little to do with giving Lily protection.

Here's a thought to ponder: The things that Harry has from James tend to lead him into mischief. The cloak and the map.

.

I dont see any mention of this--only that he rolled onto his side when the train lurched. Tonks says nothing about his having been exposed.

I'd like to think Sirius was teaching Regulus to be an animagus. Would he have made up what he said to Harry as a cover for what really happened?

I do not want to discount any Sirius hiding Regulus line of conjecture, but I must insert the fact I see Sirius as an emotionally, immature man. Dumbledore describes him as far too clever to let Snape goad him, yet it happens. He threatens to attack Snape for calling him a coward with Harry in the middle of them. Such a juvenile response.

I don't think Sirius cares for anyone in his family, he turned his back on them and adopted the Potters. I don't think his choice of allegiance ever swayed again.

...but I'd like to be shown otherwise! I like Sirius.

I just checked HBP, the train lurched and Harry rolled over onto his side, thus looking under the seat instead of at the ceiling. It is probable some part of him was then out from under the cloak, but it does not say that specifically. So....

Why not tell us directly Tonks could see his foot or something. It doesn't say that, rather it is inconclusive.

I agree with this, and JKR has said as much. Sirius went to Azkaban very soon after he was out on his own--he didnt really have time to grow up much (then again, neither did James and Lily). Sirius is in the same position as Kreacher, ironically: stuck in Azkaban with dementors and criminals on their way to insane, while K is stuck in the house with Lady Black and then her screaming portrait.

As to the letting Snape goad him, I keep going back and forth on it. He really is clever as DD says, but there is evidence that Snape goads him. The question, though, is whether Snape's getting to Sirius is about what Snape SAYS to Sirius about Sirius, or about their history. Snape in part gets to Sirius because of what he does to Harry, and that's how that confrontation with Harry in the middle began: Sirius warning Snape not to bug Harry. I think Sirius hates the fact that Snape will be spending teaching time with the only person Sirius has in his life, really, at this point. Snape is still Snivellus to Sirius. I do think Sirius is strong enough for him. Other forces are at work, though.

As to teaching Regulus, I do think I concur with you. I'd like to think he'd teach Regulus, but doubt that he did. I dont think he ever came around on his family, including his younger brother. It's really remarkable how little he says about his brother. Maybe he is as jealous as Aunt Petunia was of Lily, despite what he SAYS about rejecting his family wholesale; I think someone said that above.....Sirius left in part out of jealousy, not just ideology.

Ohhhh...that's interesting you would flip the jealousy card.

Let's take jealousy and run with it for a moment.

Snape is jealous of the positions Sirius has held, still does actually even through the Veil:

1. He was/is James' best friend;
2. He is good-looking, by all accounts, taller, bigger and stronger than Snape. We are told Harry recognizes how much taller and larger Sirius is to Snape in number 12, when Sirius warns him, as you recalled, not to use Occlumency to harass Harry;
3. He is a pureblood, even if he turned his back on his family, he cannot run from who he was born to be;
4. He is wealthy...and cares not. Chooses to live on rats hiding in a cave for a small, elusive window of opportunity to be with Harry for even a moment;
5. He is popular and smart and known for both.

Snape is none of the above with the exception of smart, yet I speculate he may have once wished to be all of them.

Or still does, which makes him quite dangerous, if he still longs to be seen in this manner.

Using the jealousy card, how can we infer more about the hate relationship going on with Snape, James and Sirius? We have Lily, yes; we have the Lupin episode; we have even Lupin telling Harry that Snape was no innocent victim....what else happened between them?
There must be more. Could Regulus be a part of it? Could Snape have been so close to Regulus, been the brother Sirius was not and did that burn Sirius, even if he denounced the entire pureblood mania???

There has to be a deeper knife in the chest here than what we have so far.

Oh, ummm, and someone, somewhere knows something about the cloak.

Yes....we do have that memory that Harry glimpses of Snape trying to mount a broomstick and being, I think, laughed at or at least watched. Somewhere it is mentioned that he envied James' quidditch play. Interesting, Snape and the broomstick is like Ron and his broomstick, practicing in secret. Snape in James' shadow, Ron in Harry's and Fred's and George's. Snape and McGonagall's competition over quidditch seems to imply quite a commitment to it on Snape's part--yet there is nothing remotely athletic about him, nor "sporting".

I was about to say, except when he duels Lockhart and knocks him on his ****. But then that makes me think, why was Snape so hateful of Lockhart? Because he is a total fraud who enjoys reknown. Like James, perhaps, but James is no fraud. No, I think Lockhart has the misfortune of being the anti-LV: the fraud he can blast until he can blast LV.



Maybe there is more going on. But if we take Slughorn's comment about the power of obsessive love, maybe the Lily issue IS enough to back up alot of Snape's animus. The things I remember Snape mentions about James are:
Rule-breaking; the rules did not apply to him, like they dont to Harry.
Arrogance.
Attacking Snape when Snape is outnumbered.

I could see this being the list Lily had against James until she fell for him. Snape may have just stuck to it, thinking Lily could be saved from James.

Where exactly did Lupin say that, by the way? I'd like to relook at it....

Could Snape have had a brother-like relationship with anyone? It would explain Sirius, but is it consistent with Snape? Maybe...the young Snape, who cared for Lily.


Yeah, I suspect there is. I'm feeling rather blank on whether we could puzzle it out given only what we know.

It's interesting that in the worst memory scene, Snape stays buried in that test paper for ages. Wormtail sits delightedly laughing at James playing with the snitch, and Snape ambles along behind the group seemingly absorbed in a test paper. Was he not absorbed in the test paper, but just tracking the foursome? Was he waiting for an opportunity to confer with Pettigrew? Was he hoping for a confrontation? He does draw his wand first, doesn't he?

Starts on OOTP 669, Career Advice. Although I cannot find the direct quote where Lupin said Snape was not just an innocent victim, so that has to be in HBP somewhere. I just know it is there somewhere and I'll find it.

Someone (is it Dumbledore?) compares James and Snape - to - Harry and Draco. Immediate dislike and just develops deeper. I will accept that at face value, but the history deepened and there is something more, either that or we just have three totally immature boys in powers of position. One dead, one behind the Veil not properly dead and one on the run. How fitting.

There is more here, I just don't know if we'll find it in the books or we just have to wait. The jealousy card is a major motivator for current behaviour.

HBP begins on 332, doesn't have the innocent victim quote, though. I swear I've read that verbatim. Still looking...

Was it in the movie? Was it DD that said Snape was not innocent? I seem to remember something too.

I said in the Puppet Master Theory that Regulus and Snape were working together as a subvertive team against LV.

Regulus was younger than Sirius. Snape was younger than Lucius but Lucius befriended Snape and brought him into the DEs (I am assuming). Did Snape bring Regulus in, they became disillusioned early on and worked against LV. Then when Regulus was discovered, they contacted DD, faked Regulus' death and used the cloak while he hid from the world.

I too think y'all are right about Sirius and Regulus. Sirius is emotionally still an 17 year old. He has emotional problems. JKR said that he wanted to be Harry's 'mate' (transfered his brotherly affection for James onto Harry) and Harry wanted a father figure. Regulus was the family favorite so Sirius would have had resentment towards him.

My take on Sirius' conversation with Harry about R was that S had little regard for his brother, kind of like DD talking about his. They are not worthy of the speaker.

Cris

Wait, you think DD has little regard for his brother? I totally don't see that--he knows instantly from Aberforth that the DE's are there while Tom applies for the job with DD. He tells Harry that Aberforth rightly cares not a whit for what people say about him after the goat episode. All he says is that he's not sure Aberforth can read. But is that disregard? Is there something I'm forgetting?

About goats and hogs, by the way: I was investigating the "Auntie Muriel" angle on the goblin-made tiara that folks think may be significant. Turns out the name Muriel is the name of the goat in Animal Farm--she is the one who has more sense about how to deal with the humans, but is somehow discounted in the story. If I remember right, she provides important counsel to the "hog" who is in charge. I was trying to remember if JKR ever said anything about Orwell being a writer she admired. Muriel and the Hogs Head may be tributes, along with some other animal references. I couldnt find any other relevant literary tie in for the name Muriel. The day I read that, I was particularly taken with the way the subservient species in HP might need to rise up and demand rights from the humans, and may in fact be doing so between books--those goblins with their wand-rights activism, being courted by LV at the time when the wand-maker is missing....the elves being subconsciously perhaps politicized by Dobby's autonomy and Winky's alcoholism....the werewolves torn between Lupin and Greyback perhaps....the vampires...well, who knows...

Not to change the subject back to the cloak...okay to do just that, I was remembering how the players described the state of the wizarding world prior to the bodily demise of Voldemort: extremely, violent chaos. People were tortured, black-mailed, threatened, killed, missing, etc. - seems entirely plausible that Regulus could have gone missing without a detectable trace during that period.

Granted, word had it he was killed by Voldemort or on his orders, but if Snape was tasked with killing Regulus, would he be required to submit Voldemort evidence, such as his head? Doubtful. Voldemort would expect unwavering loyalty and accept the deed was done as ordered on Snape's word. Of course, Regulus no longer shows up, so that is proof.

So, Snape doesn't kill him, this is Snape's first turning point in his loyalties. Instead he runs to Dumbledore and begs him to hide him.

As I have speculated, Dumbledore askes James to surrender his invisibility cloak when he goes into hiding in Godric's Hollow, thus preventing James from leaving the house undetected and foolishly going after Voldemort on his own. Dumbledore has this cloak now, but I don't see how I can connect the cloak to Regulus on the timeline. Regulus was allegedly dead about the time Harry was born, not when the attack fell. I did toss out Lupin way back when as a hider of Regulus, being he is a werewolf and goes missing each month anyway. Not to mention that Lupin is the ONLY member of the Order to escape both the fight in the DoM and on the tower UNHARMED. Much more powerful a wizard than he is portrayed to be. Yet, whatever would he do with Regulus unless he hid him in the werewolf community. I don't know if Lupin has ever bitten a human, I don't want to think he has, but living with them now, how could he hide amongst them and not show he is one at heart?

Either someone can fill my gaps or this is for the trashbin altogether.

Stimulating....a couple of thoughts...

1. Something has changed between James' previous bold defiance of LV and the hiding--the prophecy. So it is possible James would be persuaded that he cannot be out there as usual. I'm thinking James, a father, might be more cautious given that LV will be after his family and Harry is last in his line.

2. So I'm thinking James was using his cloak up until the time of the actual hiding, which was only a week before the attack. Using it to hide Harry. DD's note says it was "time it was returned to you" which to me reads like it has been Harry's before, not just James's.

3. James and Lily take Harry into hiding in GH. At this time, either at DD's suggestion or his own, James gives DD the cloak because the family is already hidden in principle. Why give DD the cloak?
a. to use for someone else who needed to be hidden, like Neville or Regulus.
b. to make arrangements for Harry's protection in the event of James and Lily's demise at the house, just as they clearly made arrangements for Harry's financial well-being by giving DD the key to the Gringotts vault. (Tho, if they were in hiding, they needed to give someone else this key to continue to access their funds, so it's possible the money was not so much earmarked for Harry as given an outside accessor, Hagrid, for James and Lily's spending needs.)

4. It is truly interesting that Regulus dies around the time of Harry's birth, Snape's hearing the prophecy and having told LV. Regulus and Snape seem to have bolted LV's service at roughly the same time. That means that Regulus was snatching the horcrux somewhere shortly before this time or during this time. I'm thinking he did it while still in service to LV, when he'd have time that he knew he would not have while being hunted for having bolted. What had Regulus been asked to do that predates Harry's birth and would have caused him to rethink his devotion? If Regulus is like Draco, as JKR has said, maybe Regulus was tasked at that time with getting rid of DD. He is killed for having left the DE less than a year after graduating Hogwarts. Narcissa mentions that more neither LV nor anyone else has been able to "succeed" at the task set to Draco. Perhaps Regulus failed as a student, had a little chat with DD just like Draco, went off for a few months fake service to LV during which time he grabbed up the horcrux(es), officially left LV's service after ratting out his half-blood status to others (Snape, especially, the closest to him in age) and then "dies" (maybe--or goes into fake-death-protective custody).

5. Regulus may have gone a little stir-crazy, like his older brother, and needed to be given the cloak for safe movement after a year, when the cloak became available because of the FC.

ok, my brain just fizzled so I'll stop....

Well, if Regulus is alive and NOT under the DotLD, then the house would not go to Harry. Number 12 would not go to Harry, because it would not have gone to Sirius in the first place, but to Regulus. Thus, if Regulus is alive, he must be comatose or in some sort of suspendend animation. Right?

I wondered when I first joined Veritaserum, if Regulus had been given a lousy task in the same manner as Draco: to kill Sirius. Bad blood aside, not many brothers would want to kill their own. That was what I suspect tipped the scales for Regulus to begin with. Show your loyalty to me and kill your brother, Sirius! ....whoa! Brakes on --- eyes wide open for Regulus.

It is interesting Orion died the same year as Regulus. Perhaps Regulus went back home to Dad and confessed what Voldemort requested of him: kill Sirius. Would they? Again, I don't think so. Something changed for the entire Black family, too, not just Regulus. So, in theory this fits well.

Yes, the returned to you line in the note does seem to imply it was once used for Harry, too. Or used by Harry, even if others used it for him. We still have the squeaking step at the Dursley's House, which has been mentioned too many times to be insignificant.

Ohhhh! What if Regulus was tasked to kill Sirius...and then Snape was tasked to kill Regulus?!

I wasnt implying that Regulus was definitely alive now, only that he had been. Indeed, Snape may have been tasked to kill him and had. Hard to say. But I do agree that for Regulus to be alive now, something has to finesse the inheritance of Grimauld/Kreacher.

So you dont think maybe Regulus was tasked with killing DD, making a tighter parallel with Draco?

I do think the idea of being asked to kill his brother would have bugged the family, but why would he have been given this task? Just to eliminate Order members? Perhaps.....Others were indeed taken out viciously at the time, as you note.

Just cant shake the idea that LV has gone after DD before, and others have been asked too--others that Narcissa would be able to know about so as to make that unguarded/corrected statement in front of Snape. But Snape seems to not know himself what she is referencing, so he appears to not have been in the "multiple attempts to kill DD" loop. Or was he....

It certainly would stand to reason that Voldemort's task for Draco would not have been Voldemort's first attempt at removing Dumbledore. It is plausible that Regulus could have been tasked with that, too. But think about why we believe Draco was tasked with killing Dumbledore: to punish Lucius. I do not believe that Voldemort ever had any faith a kid would vanquish (to use the prophecy word) Dumbledore. Rather, I suspect Voldemort figured Draco would die in his task...just as Narcissa feared! What better way to punish a father than by killing his son.

So, I don't know if a younger Voldemort at the height of his powers would have tasked a young Regulus with killing Dumbledore.

Remember that Sirius said the following, " No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the Wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having purebloods in charge. They weren't alone either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colors, who thought he had the right idea about things...They got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first."

Sirius was talking of his parents to Harry. I think it is important to bear in mind the implication that Orion had a change of faith behind Voldemort, too.

Yet again you all took off without me! I will try to catch up.

"Sirius' brother, Regulus, only managed a few days as far as I can remember" Lupin in HBP chapt 6

So what ever he did (horcrux) happened immediatly before they went after him.

Does anyone have the direct quote about what happened to him? I haven't been able to find it. Is it Lupin that says the DEs went after him, torutured him and killed him?

I, too think it is interesting that the Blacks had a change of heart when he 'showed his true colors' Was this when Regulus came to them and said "Mom! Dad! You'll never guess what the DL is doing and what he wants me to do!!!...." Was the predicament their favored son was now in kill Orion? Did Orion die in his place?

Sirren, excellent point about the magical will. The house would be Regulus' if he was dead at the time Sirius' died, UNLESS his parents were in on some kind of fake death and did something to the will to erase Regulus and not take him off the tapestry.



pumpkinjuice, I like this idea. It would fit with the phrasing.


What, exactly, was he prepared to do? Is this just a reference to killing lots of wizards or was there something else. Something huge and nasty?

Just to clarify a few of my opinions or inferences from the readings.
Godric's Hollow was not a place they moved to to hide. It is the Potter family residence that was hidden by the Fidelius Charm. They 'went into hiding' magically, at home.

Snape and Regulus were working together.

LV was so arrogant that he probably didn't think he had to kill DD, just yet. LV had power and things were going his way. The Resistance was feeble, not much of a threat, just an annoyance - like the resistance to Hitler?

Cris

Seems to me he could have grabbed the horcrux during any bit of the period BEFORE he took off. In fact it would make more sense to do that first, then quit to give himself time. Or am I missing something in the timeline? He had a full year post-Hogwarts before he was "killed".


This is possible, and likely, tho it is never clearly stated. It would make sense, tho, that James would be wherever his money let him be.

That's a good point--but it raises the question of whether Regulus was tasked to kill DD just because his parents had ceased supporting LV already. From Sirius's comment about his parents approval of Regulus "at first" it sounds like they withdrew before he did, though perhaps shortly before. Fair to say they all were appalled at where LV wanted to take things. But the situations may in fact be exactly parallel. People tend to repeat strategies. Punish Regulus by sending him after DD. Punish Draco by sending him after DD. DD offers Draco sanctuary, insinuating a familiarity with doing such for people in the past. And the fact that JKR had that bit ("not if you are already dead") added (supposedly) in the American edition just calls all the more attention to it, on all kinds of levels.

Plus, if LV was not himself going after DD effectively even at the height of his (LV) powers, what better than throw Regulus at it? This raises the interesting question of whether DD had ever 'extinguished' any DE's for real. DD says HE thinks LV thinks Draco would die in the attempt. Hmmm...

pumpkinjuice, now that is a seductive parallel!

I have to agree with you seeing the Black's withdrawing their support prior to the "death" of Regulus. That does fit better, and it makes a bit more sense as to how things may have played out back then.

I don't think that Voldemort would have had much blackmail (no pun intended) leverage against the Black family, but to use a son? Their favored son? Oh yessss indeed.

I like the parallel with Dumbledore, too. Perfect fit. It also explains why Dumbledore was neither too concerned nor shocked at Draco's task.

following the DD using children to punish parents: I agree that it could be a 'theme' with LV. I think that he would have had Regulus go after his brother though. It would test loyalty more that DD. It would cause more damaged to the family also and hopefully asure family loyalty through fear.

We are at the last book. The story line can't have too much back story because of the length of the book. JKR has to wrap up a lot of loose ends. Another complicated story line would be counter productive.

The low down on book 7 and it's needs can be found here

KISS is what I am going for. It even negates some of my ideas.

The cloak was used for something simple. If DD was orchestrating all of this he took the cloak from James to keep him form doing something to jeopardize the plan, knowing that Harry would be ok and having no idea that the Pottres would die.

We talked about using the cloak for good and how James did not due this. He used it for personal gain. DD knew that James would have no second thoughts about using the cloak to hide Harry and probably had already. That was probably the meaning in the note about gaving it back to Harry, (was the pumkinjuice's comment? ).

Events unfolded as we know them. DD had the cloak until Harry could use it. He couldn't use it at the Dursley's but at Hogwarts, where is official and unofficial educations began, it was a very usefull tool.

It can't get much simpler than that can it? I don't think that the Potter's or DD suspected they would die DDs great mistake was not figuring on this and inadvertently (sp?) setting them up to die.

He then, later, set up Sirius to die under similar circumstances. He does make cataclysmic mistakes. He does have regrets however the greater good has to be paramount to all. Collateral damage in inevitable.

Cris

How do you see DD setting Sirius up to die? By asking him to hide? I'm missing something.....

JKR can have a lot of time in DH for backstory if the horcrux hunt is shortened by the fact that Regulus has already grabbed most of the outstanding ones.

Killing Sirius would test loyalty more than killing DD, but we do have the comment by Narcissa to square with whatever the facts are--that LV--that no one--has been able to accomplish the task set to Draco. So it seems textually efficient if this had been Regulus's job, but it's true enough that it could have been anyone's.

I keep thinking about James.....I still don't think I'd call nipping food a "personal gain" use of the cloak. Food is always fair game, even important, in the books, and the elves seem happy to oblige. I'm trying to think together--maybe for nought--the fact that DD has the cloak at the time of James's death, and the fact that there is no witness to James's death visually. Some have speculated that the absence of James's death as an image in the film is signficant, but it can mean no more than that Harry was in the other room. LV says James died "straight-backed and proud". Sounds like he just stood there, chin out, letting it happen. No mention of a wand. Tho LV says this to Harry in the context of their impending duel, so maybe it was in fact more of a battle than we see. James was pretty good at hexing, and had excellent reflexes (snitch scene). But LV just out-wands him? Even Harry is quick enough to allow PI to take effect between the wands. It really suggests a willing death, to think the quick James just died straightbacked after telling Lily (excellent charm-worker) to "take Harry and run". After both of them defied/escaped LV three times already. It doesnt add up, and I cannot but think the cloak is implicated.

Prophecy made sometime after the pregnancy of Lily and Alice, on a cold night, so either in winter or spring. James and Lily stay out and about, Harry is born, and they spend a year after that still out and about before they go into hiding. A year without hiding....despite a deatheater overhearing the prophecy. No, a year without hiding BECAUSE a death eater heard the prophecy. A year of using the cloak to protect Harry while they waited for LV to make his move. They went into hiding because, perhaps, he HAD NOT made his move, and the FC with Peter as secret keeper (Peter, the lamo-marauder?) was a chess move to make LV act. Perhaps Sirius just played into a plan already underway by backing out of the role. Perhaps James' own suggestion that (hypothetically) Sirius too go into hiding. hmmm

I see DD thinking, like Harry did, that if he had not sent Sirius into hiding, and had told everything to Harry, that Sirius would still be alive.

Ooohh does that go to DD not telling the Potters or someone else, perhaps your Sirius idea, everything and causing the deaths?

Why didn't he have Sirius 'die' like he offered Draco? Or was this it? You disappear and have to stay holed up like a mouse in a wolves den? Hide or die?


OK, you drew me in with the chess move thing....

I seems to me that making the Horcruxes easy is anticlimactic (sp?)

The food with James = there was nothing but a personal desire. It was not anything for drunken elves or hiding characters.

I hate to admit that I watched it and did stop after a while but I watched Charmed, a US TV show about 3 witches, the Charmed Ones, who could NOT use their magic for personal gain. If they did things would go wrong in a hurry. They used their power to save 'innocents' from 'evil'.

I guess that's were I got the personal gain idea about the cloak. If - hang on *mind furriously trying to work with kid distrctions*.....

Could DD have known that that particular family would produce someone to stop Slytherins Heir? Could the cloak have been a 'test'? The whole personal gain thing? James did not pass the test so the cloak was removed - using whatever excuse. When Harry came along he was given a chance and passed the test, using the cloak to help others and gain information not for food and play.

Here I go making it more complicated.....

Cris

Complicated is good, KISS aside. The world is a very complicated place. Light is both wave and particle, and all that.....



BTW, I noticed a little something that subtly helps underscore our HBP book-idea, that Harry got the book and Snape moved over to DADA in part so that Harry could learn in potions: First, in his first potions lesson after the Worst Memory fiasco in Snape's office in OOTP, Harry discovered that he did a pretty good job of making a potion when Snape was not breathing down his neck and taunting him (Snape was pretending he didn't exist). Kind of a foreshadowing of the next year. Then, next scene when he's talking to MM about career advice, MM is telling him about how Snape refuses any student with less than an outstanding OWL exam in potions, she says, "....so," and is INTERRUPTED by Umbridge. On the interruption principle of JKR writing hints, this little bit of info seems to allude to something. Two potions-related bits pointing to his 6th year experience in the course of an hour or so. Interesting.

I see your point about Sirius....DD's withholding information may be a bad habit. Hmmm...It would be a shame if that's how James and Lily went.

OK, big idea just hit me, on the death of James and Lily and Harry's protection in its relation to something like the puppet-master idea:
1. LV says in the graveyard that he had been foolish to not anticipate the ancient magic that protected Harry when Lily sacrificed herself.
2. DD knows more about Love magic than LV could ever forget. So, we can infer that DD knew that a sacrifice confers some kind of protection of untouchability.
3. LV says in the graveyard that his existence proves that one of his "experiments" had worked, and as you pointed out (or was it Sirren?), that means he could not be sure before he was "killed" that he would nonetheless really be immortal. His test of the theory had succeeded.
4. DD said that no one had ever survived an AK before; this does not mean that no one had received some kind of protection as a result of a sacrifice. This means Lily's death could have been a calculated risk to confer some kind of protection (untouchable by LV) on Harry, until such time as he was ready to wield the prophecied power against LV. DD knew love magic, LV implied that protection can be expected, therefore DD must have known something could be achieved through such a sacrifice. It could buy the chosen one time, at the very least.
5. Hence DD jumping in to seal the protection charm--why would he be sealing something he didnt know something about? He DID know something before the fact, then. Maybe not the full implications, but something. And his spell, whatever it was, finished the deal.

So, is the cloak somehow implicated in the reason there is a time-lag between the attack and the delivery of Harry to Privet Drive, in terms of whether this time-lag has something to do with DD's foreknowledge of the conferral of protection over Harry? DD sends Hagrid right away, but they don't show up for almost a whole day. I've speculated in the past that DD had already met Harry and Hagrid to seal the charm on Harry's end, possibly with Petunia present. Her needing the cloak for this protection-sealing process (getting there, or whatever) would make sense, but I dont know....

Ah, perhaps the answer is a hybrid between your suspicion and mine--DD got the cloak beforehand so that nothing would mess up the protection he was hoping to engineer to buy the Order enough time to let the chosen one grow up and fight. Thats why DD and Hagrid always knew LV would be back one day. It was just a stall tactic. DD knew--because of Snape, and possibly Regulus too--that LV had made some experiments to protect himself from actual death. So DD bought himself and Harry some time. And maybe Hagrid was instructed to stall to make sure the coast was really clear when LV went vapormort just as DD expected he might.

The already having met Hagrid and Harry makes some sense. That would explain how Hagrid knows where DD will be.

If he met with Petunia under the cloak there must have been a memory charm because of the reactions when he showed up at their house to pick up Harry.

I have said all along the DdD told Hagrid to stay away for a while to make sure no one knew about Harry or the Dursleys and would try to get Harry there.

Could he have had Hagrid tell MM where DD would be so that she would be there watching for anything bad without actually worrying her with the plan?

Like Albus said on another thread, I'm getting tired of speculating without additional clues and can't wait for the book to come out.

If I had time to go over each book and cross reference everything (thats why I love HP Lexicon so much) I would like it more. But unfortunalty there is life and my family would greatly object.

I would love a computer version of the book so that I could do searches tht way!!!!

Cris

I get tired of it sometimes, not so much due to absence of more clues but just the fact that there's so much to factor in already and it takes so long. So, yes, I fantasize too about an e-book, but hasnt she said she's sort of against the idea? The first thing I would search, given my interests today, is the use of the long hyphen, which usually occurs where interruptions are. These do seem to be provocative clue moments, possibly at least, as someone has said on another thread somewhere. Doing this speculating is just like any other kind of research, only more fun. Pulling together fragments and configuring an hypothesis. I enjoy the brain-stimulating effect, even if 99% turns out incorrect given that these are inventive novels. But the brain stimulating effect can be tiring, too.

That's possible--maybe that is part of what he means privately by saying he would trust Hagrid with his life--Hagrid telling MM was not Hagrid revealing a secret he should not, but revealing what DD wanted him to reveal, and no more. hmm....

I was just thinking, the one-day delay may have been to set up Arabella Figg as watcher over Harry. Has she always lived there? Does MM blend in with cats already present, or do we not hear anything about any other cats on scene? I cant recall, and thats the one book not in my reach right now....

Not only do we have the mystery of the one day delay, the specifics of WHY Dumbledore had the cloak before James died, we still have the mystery concerning the letters from Dumbledore to Petunia before Harry was deposited at number four Privet Drive.

Do they ALL intersect?

Yes, they must, they really must.....

Lets look at DD's pre-history with Petunia some more. Would the cloak have been in any way useful to that history for, say, the year since Harry's birth or even earlier?

Since I'd speculated elsewhere that DD has to have known that a life-sacrifice would confer some kind of protection (because LV says he was foolish not to see it would happen, because that ancient love magic just works that way). Knowing at least since the prophecy was made that such a sacrifice might be necessary, he might have been negotiating with Petunia for some time before the attack, getting the charm established that "taking Harry in" would fulfill, and preparing her for it. Persuading her, perhaps, that it would also protect her to have Harry present. If the Longbottoms were tortured for info, so would the Dursleys be.

Now, is Snape implicated here too? If he was the "awful boy" Lily brought home, can Snape have been involved in DD's back-story with Petunia, or are we sure Snape only came over to DD's side after the attack?

Interesting thought that: Lily brining Snape home, not James.

Snape would have known how to behave with muggles though. He probably woudl have toned down any magic and been semi accetable to Petunia. His looks an characteristics might have been objectionable.

James, on the other hand, was pureblood and would know how to behave around muggles. He would have had a hard time not using magic and would have probably gaucked and laughed at the way muggles did things. Petunia would have found this more objectionable. She would have called him a horrible boy due to his arrogance, attitude and lack of sensitivity.

Cris

I dunno, I thought James was said to be fairly charming tho arrogant (until his sixth year, when as Sirius tells Harry, James deflated his head a bit). I kind of felt that the "awful boy" comment sort of indicated that it was not James, since Petunia might be expected to refer to him as the eventual useless husband or something. But clearly JKR left if ambiguous so we'd have to wonder.

My gut says Snape, though. Lily did not hang with or tolerate James until sixth year when James stopped hexing people randomly (except for Snape), and I just had the impression the bring-home was before that. But even if it was after, would Petunia have called him an awful boy if it was post-deflation by James?

Even if James was no longer arrogant and was Charming, he still wouldn't have been good around muggles. Think about Ron. Not knowing anything about the way muggles do things....I still think a wizardphobic like Petunia would have thought him horrible.

Some people also don't like charming.

Cris

I'm back to basics again today...

the note said, "Your father left this in my possession....it is time it was returned to you."

Cant help but think this does mean that the cloak was already somehow Harry's before James died, either that or Harry just IS James, but I don't think that's how this will work.

Given that I am now thinking that Lily and James had already realized they might need to sacrifice themselves in order to confer a protection on Harry if LV came calling, I am thinking that the cloak might have been used to transport Harry to DD to seal the charm that began before the Potters went into hiding.

IF LV says he should have anticipated the protection Lily's sacrifice would confer, DD must have known about it. James and Lily go into hiding, knowing there is a traitor afoot, almost two years after the prophecy and only one week before the attack. The timing is fishy if not a trap.

They went into hiding to force LV's hand, knowing that if one of them sacrificed themselves Harry would be protected wherever Lily's blood was. Hence DD's having done letters to Petunia BEFORE leaving Harry on the doorstep. This protection was already in the cauldron bubbling before LV arrived that night, waiting for when he would--inevitably--arrive.

Possible?

Yes, very possible.

I will always believe that it was a set up to draw out LV. I don't think that DD intentionally set James and Lilly up to die. He knew Harry would be ok but didn't know what the complete outcome would be.

As said earlier, by you? They probably used the cloak to hide Harry when out and about. That's why the note said 'returned to you' because Harry used it, perhaps slept under it, as a, pardon the pun, 'security blanket'. (*audible groan* ouch that hurt).

James was asked to give it to DD so that he would not 'hide' Harry when LV came. Harry needed to come face to face with LV to be marked as his equal. If Harry was under the cloak this couldn't happen and LV would kill James and Lilly looking for him.

DD knew this and asked for the cloak.

What parent wouldn't do everything to protect his/her child. Even if they knew that Harry would be ,instinc t would make them protect him from LV. With out the cloak it was their selves that had to sheild Harry.

Wow, I feel absolute about that. No wishy washy feelings or reservations.

Cris

Well, not to create wishy washy feelings....well, yes, maybe to create them....

If LV can see through the cloak, what protection would it provide at the house that night?

I agree that it was probably used to bring Harry about, since LV does not patrol the streets himself--he seems to wait in hiding until provided with specifics of where he needs to be (i.e. wormtail ratting out the potters, the fight at the DoM, etc.). So the cloak would protect Harry from the DE, but not from LV. So that night, I don't think the cloak would have even been useful for the purpose of hiding Harry from LV, and I suspect DD probably knew that Tom was powerful enough to see through cloaks already.

So I think that night its absence served some other purpose.

OK, several people have said LV can see through a cloak. Where is it in the books. I don't remember this.

I always felt that people could sense people using the cloak but since they are so rare they don't suspect it (ie in the movies when Snape suspects Harry in the hallway - PoA I think - and the Minister in the upper room in the Hogs Head when Harry is listening there.), but DD and probably LV knew of the existance and knew what to feel or look for.

Cris

That's a good point. I read it somewhere that LV could see through invisibility cloaks just like Dumbledore, but what did the books say specifically? Moody can see through them with his magical eye, but can Dumbledore actually see through them or sense Harry's presense because of the "magical trace" of the invisibility cloak? Dumbledore can be invisible without one does that also allow him to see through them? I don't know, but I think I'll try and find examples in the books to prove or disprove the idea.

However, LV can definitely sense Harry now, so the cloak would most likely be useless to him, even if LV cannot see through it. However, that does not necessarily make it so the night of the attack.

I dont know what the canon source of the belief about LV is....someone needs to find it!

I'm kind of fixated tonite on the fact that Harry leaves the cloak in lots of places and it always seems to find its way back to him....makes me wonder if somehow Harry left it someplace in the past, in some time-loop he might have been going through...but he would remember that, I suppose. Unless someone else left it somewhere on some time-loop.

I think that is just DD and/or the elves looking out for him. I don't think there is anything deep and dark to it.

He is a kid and kids leave things everywhere. I have returned lots of things to my kids they have lost and they never knew it was lost....They think I'm psychic or something. Eyes in the back of my head and all. Nothing supernatural here. Just observant and a good mom I guess.

Cris

ha ha ha ha ha, Cris!! That is too funny. Kids have far too much going on to worry about whether or not their things are safely stored.

I have been wondering about more than the invisibility cloak, while unable to access Veritaserum (my man has a thing for online poker - we sure need two internet connections!), James and Lily died, thus beqeathing all their belongings to Harry; or one would presume that, anyway. The house is destroyed, but no-one takes Harry to see the land upon which it stood? All he gets is a pile of gold in Gringott's and an invisibility cloak left in Dumbledore's possession? The Potters had enough money for a rare, expensive cloak and nothing else??? Weird.

Sirius knows Harry for one year and gives him number 12 Grimmauld Place, all the contents AND Kreacher and Harry gets gold and a cloak from his parents? Something is wrong here.
I recognize that the house was allegedly destroyed, but as wealthy as the Potters seemed to be, they should have had more than a house.

That's interesting, you would think there might be other items....it's possible, since his care fell to DD with Sirius's arrest, that DD had instructions to withhold other items until Harry came of age. Hard to imagine why, unless Harry had to be kept clear of all mythology of his past in order to become the one he was to become, ala DD plan or something.

I suspect, tho, that like JKR's clearing off of James and Lily's parents because she needed them out of the way, she also needed the house out of the way, so Harry would be alone with little in the way of resources and history.

I keep thinking about that potential house elf, too. Harry gets the gold to survive at Hogwart's, gets the invisibility cloak from Dumbledore to learn about "stuff," but gets nothing else from his parents until he is 17?

Dumbledore is dead now. So, does Hagrid have control over anything else Harry might have inherited from James and Lily? Or, are you right, there is nothing else, because JKR just needed a clean slate for Harry? It is possible she did just wipe out the house to make it easier to write the story.

Yet, a baby sitting amidst all that rubble, found after the fact, is bizarre at best.

Yes, the whole scene is really bizarre.

A baby and the recognizable bodies of James and Lily (according to Sirius), amidst the ruins of a house that was completely destroyed, but nothing else? Did the destructive force destroy only inorganic things? Why was there no LV body? (OH--might LV have already been a regenerated LV, so the body that day went magical bye-bye?)

Sirius drives over on a motorcycle instead of apparating in such an emergency?

Hagrid luckily gets the motorbike, having convinced Sirius that DD's orders must be obeyed. How did Hagrid get there in the first place? I guess he apparates, but it's never said clearly that he can, is it?

Maybe there is another vault, one set up long ago in trust for Harry like any rich family might have.

The organic things surviving the blast would endorse the possibility, at least, of the elf.

Or,

WAHAHA!

It is part of the Puppet Master Theory!! As you said, DD is holding the things back to keep Harry clear of too much hatred and evil feelings. There has to be a balance. If he had more objects he might dwell on them. Living in the past too much is a bad thing. He has to focus on the future and completeting his taks.

Although I agree that it was a JKR clean slate thing and nothing else.

I find it mondo bizarro (sorry, I'm in a mood!) that once Harry found out his parents were not killed in a car crash, he didn't request to see where he'd lived with them and see their graves.

clean slate again?

I don't know about Hagrid apparating. He is not supposed to use magic. He used a boat to get to Harry on the island the Dursley's went to.

Perhaps apparating is very trackable and that is why Sirius didn't do it. and the motor bike isn't you say? Sirius was a very impetuous wizard. History shows he didn't think things through often.

complete aside: I did an anagram of Severus Half Blood Prince Snape and got:
'Unlovable arch-fiend oppresses'
Interesting huh?

Cris

Yeah, his lack of curiosity is remarkable...maybe he was just so stunned and turned around by the owls and the flight from them....and Harry is not used to asking for or demanding things, so it maybe didnt even occur to him to ask Hagrid to take him back there, what with all the magical shopping they had to do.

Quite a contrast to Tom Riddle saying "I knew I was special" and "TELL THE TRUTH!"

So if Hagrid did not apparate, how did he get to GH? In the movie of PS, he apparates out of Diagonalley, but I forget how they parted in the book.

Hopefully there is nothing imperative in the first two pages of SS, because my dog ate it.

There is something puzzling about Petunia's confession she knew Harry was a wizard: that Lily came home with frog spawn in the pocket and was turning teacups into rats (pg53).
If Lily's parents were muggles, Lily should have been busted for underage magic in a muggle house while on vacation. Why doesn't that happen?!

In the book Hagrid isn't shown to apparate. Hagrid gives Harry his ticket to the train he will ride back to the Dursley's house. Harry gets on the train and that's it.

I read in an interview where Rowling says that Petunia exaggerated a bit, she was pretty angry because her parents favoured Lily. Favoured because she could do magic and Petunia couldn't, hence her (Petunia's) hate against magic.

Thanks, Da Box, that would certainly explain it. I have not read that many interviews with JKR, but I'm still working on it!

Petunia's other comment about Lily meeting James and then them going off and getting married sort of leaves me feeling that Petunia might not have ever met James visiting at the home of their parents.

I would think James and Lily would have a big wedding with everyone in attendance from both familes. Anyone have any thoughts on that? If they had a big wedding, Dumbledore would have attended....and Petunia and Vernon could have seen him?

That's probably a stretch.

Well, Molly says she and Arthur married in a hurry because of LV, and things were only worse by the time Lily and James were hooked up. Hard to say what the marriage would have been like--especially if both sets of parents were at death's door, which apparently they were because they died between graduation and baby, I think.

I agree that it does not sound like Petunia ever met James.

JKR's comments about Petunia sound like one of her covers for 'I kind of goofed but can stretch the story to cover myself'. But maybe Petunia is just exaggerating--there is something inappropriately extreme about everything Dursley, even their ordinariness. Vernon's always popping a vein, Petunia is always shocked or horrified.

Petunia is neither a witch nor a squib, but there is more to petunia than meets the eye. Obviously we keep focusing on something magical for Petunia to be, but she doesn't appear to be that. So, looking at muggles, what could she be? Could she have inherited something from her parents for some reason?

Reading led me to believe Petunia was Lily's younger sister, yet it was suggested (pumpkinjuice) that she was the older sister. So, she would be the one to inherit an heirloom by being older, since it does not appear they have a living brother. Even though they are muggles, could they be related to someone that would have something of historic value to the war?

You can apparate under an invisibility cloak: Harry did it with Dumbledore. So, perhaps James apparated while under the cloak to visit Dumbledore during the week of his hiding from LV, then returned and simply forgot it? Thus, leaving it in Dumbledore's possession accidentally.

I don't know, the night at GH adds up less and less the more I reread about it.