Hello all!
I am very new to the sight... 5 days? But an untimely bout with unemployment, (Fudge did a number on the economy while in office!) and the release date of DH being announced, I find myself in a magical fever! You guys are great! One thing I have noticed is the personal level of this forum... let's remember, these are impersonal machines. Anyway. The topic is maybe the hottest since HBP. I love all of the evidence everyone is presenting, I am glued to everyone's every word! But I don't think Harry is a Horcrux. Magic seems to do what it is told, unless it's the AK attempted on Harry. We've seen spells hit statues, walls, "miss" essentially. This is what makes the scar confusing to me. It doesn't seem that any other spell, at any other time, has had unprdictable residual effects. And the use of the word "rebound" troubles me. By definition, it is the contact with something that sends it back, but did it contact Harry, or a protective "bubble" so to speak? And the big piece of evidence in my mind that Harry isn't, is in the HBP. In the cave Harry spells "Accio Horcrux!" and evokes no reaction from HIMSELF. Magic does as it is told!

You guys are great! Keep it coming!

I think that harry cannot be a horcrux. vdmt did not want to put his soul into harry. he wanted to kill him. unless it is a huge cover to pretend that he did all of that on purpose, i do not think harry could have ever been a horcrux.

Er, I don't think that Harry would have sucked in the soul. If he is to be an horcrux, I'm suppossing that it just slipped in somehow. It would be nice to hear more of what you think about that though.



Hello!!



Interesting question, but I think that it actually did contact Harry which left the scar. "That only comes from being touched by a terrible curse, a powerful on at that." Or something like that, I'm terribly bad at quoting without a book, but from that we can infer that Harry was touched by the curse yet it had no effect.

Okay albus im not saying i agree with you but i get your point. But what about the accident thing. How is it at all reasonable to think they could be made accidentally?? I just dont see how that would be plausible.

I know that this sounds pretty far fetched but it could be possible that he was trying to create a horcrux but that Harry wasn't supposed to be the horcrux. It could have been something else, but personally, I don't believe that. I am unsure that Harry is a horcrux but as I have said, Voldemort's wand is a possibility. Who knows???....Maybe Harry is a horcrux, or maybe he isn't. Those are the only two choices.

~Filius~

Thank you pumpkinjuice thats basically what i was trying to infer. Also just in my own defense i read all the proir posts (which takes a LONG time) in a thread before i began commenting in the thread i think everyone should at least make the effort to read the first 3 pages or so to know what argumetns mere proposed and to not have things repeated over and over so i agree with you on that as well. Just wanted to say thanks for articulating something i didn't explain very well
I really like the idea that Harry yelled accio horcrux and his body didn't respond so therefore he couldn't be a horcruxi think thats logical. But to play devils advocate it could've been becuase it was a;ready in his possesion so to speak so thats why he didn't react (although i don't buy that because i think his scar would have hurt or he would have felt some pull at least) also it could be becuase he was calling for a specific horcrux, the one that was housed in the basin. Just a thought but i think thats a really good catch. Also still not convinced of the dormancy of souls i think they must give off some kind of energy. Maybe DD didn't sense the diary because he thought he was sensing the Harry/VL connection. Also VL seems to hide his horcruxes and put enchantments around them so they can't be found if they were dormant then he could just leave them lying around because no one really knows about them besides slughorn, DD, and Harry and for all they know the horcrux could be anything its going to be something of significance but they have no idea what exactly the horcruxez could be. I know i kinda went around in circles but i hope it made some sense.

NO NO NO absolutley not. First, why would VD want to destroy one of his horocruxes in book 2,3,4,5. If he wanted 7 of them then why would he destroy the 7th. He would be weakening himself, he would be depriving himself of immortality, or close to it anywhay.

Ladybear the standing argument (which i don't support) as laid out by Albus in many prior posts is that Harry was accidentally made into a horcrux the night VL killed the potters and therefor didn't know he made Harry a horcrux until he possesed him in the MoM and thats why in the last book he didn't try to kill Harry because he had found out he accidentally made him a horcrux. Since i don't support this theory i'm not as knowledgeable and I don't want to misquote Albus or any other people who support that theory so i would suggest going back and reading the last 2 to 3 pages of posts there is lots of debate about that subject on those pages.

Harry cannot be a Horcrux. If he was, that would mean that Voldemorte would be hunting a piece of himself. That would be stupid. And, it was only Voldemorte's power that was transferred, not his soul. We are told in book six that for a Horcrux to be made, the caster has to kill someone, and then transfer the soul. Voldemorte neither killed the person in question, or cast the spell.

[quote]Harry cannot be a Horcrux. If he was, that would mean that Voldemorte would be hunting a piece of himself. That would be stupid. And, it was only Voldemorte's power that was transferred, not his soul. We are told in book six that for a Horcrux to be made, the caster has to kill someone, and then transfer the soul. Voldemorte neither killed the person in question, or cast the spell.[quote]

Ok i don't believe Harry is a horcrux either but as i just addressed in my post two before yours most people who believe harry is a horcrux believe it was done accidental i don't feel like typing all that again so it might be a good idea if you read some other posts about that topic they explain what you are adressing and are like a page behind this one.
Also VL didn't have to kill Harry to make the horcrux any kill would do and he had just killed lilly and james (and i'm not defending that Harry is a horcrux theory i'm not backing down )we all know that Vl likes to use significant deaths for his horcrux making but the assumptions people who believe the Harry is a horcrux is that VL accidentally sent out the horcrux into Harry and used the death of lilly or james since killing rips the soul and any soul rip can make a horcrux. Hope that clears stuff up for you though im not the best person to be explaining this since i'm on the opposite side of the fence but again i advise you go back and read the last 2 pages of posts and you'll have most of your questions at least addressed if not answered (even if you don't agree with them)

Whoa brain wave!!! Ok Harrys scar has always been described as "lightening bolt" shaped but has anyone else noticed that it looks like the side of a piece of paper when you jaggedly tear it in two. What if the whole "lightening bolt" shape is repeated over and over to throw us off and the scar is actually in the shape of a "tear". This is what i think this moght mean. VL either purposefully or accidentally sent his soul through liilys protective "bubble" and it entered harry but as i said before it couldn't live in their because of harrys innocence/goodness/love filled life/some residual lilly protection and was forced out therefore making a scar in the shape of a soul tear. The contact of VL's soul with Harrys essence/life force/soul etc left a connection between the two beccause the soul had inhabited his body for some amount of time and it also led to harry inherriting some of VL's traits.
Another idea i just had is what if harry tore something of his on accident because when the AK curse backfired it "killed VL" and since these circumstances are so rare they had never happened before it resulted in a scar the shape of a tear. I don't think Harrys sould could have been torn because he is supposed to be the embodiment of "what the dark lord knows not", love, so unless accidental soul tearing doesn't make you evil it wouldn't make sense. But doesn't the idea pf the shape of harrys scar resembling a jagged edge from a tear kinda make sense. I'm not sure yet what it implies but any thoughts or do you think i'm totally off base here?

It's an interesting hypothesis, vandownbytheriver, the "tear" idea.....But there's been so much focus and explicitness about its lightning shape in the books. In an interview or somewhere on her website JKR said that the scar is significant not so much for its shape but for its nature. That doesnt rule out some significance for the shape, but I'm more inclined to seek it out in the literal 'lightning' sense. Something maybe to do with what happened during prior incantatum when Harry's wand met LV's--Maybe by trying to kill his opposite--love--but in choosing this opposite as his nemesis, LV connected to baby Harry in something like a prior incantatum sense; the curse could not go through because it (which is a ray of green light) was repelled by another ray of green light, namely the love in Harry that he inherited from his mother in both eye-color and sacrifice. Maybe Harry just is that ray, if that makes sense. This would connect the significance of eye color (which we know will come in to the last book) to what happened that night. It's not a complete explanation, but its the direction I would go by doing what you are also doing--focusing on Harry in that scene, and not just LV and Lily as is usually the case.

Its in interesting perspective, Filius. I havent really considered anything that was present when LIly and James died a possible horcrux. I just find it difficult to believe a horcrux was made on accident. And even if he intended to make a horcrux that night he was making a horcrux when he cast the AK curse so I dont think it could happen

Unless he had help. And every day I am becoming more suspicious/convinced that he did have help, tho it was help he did not intend to have and did not know (and may still not know) he had. And that is Harry. I'm thinking that the torn bit of soul was, as I think Albus has conjectured, ripped from the rest of LV by the backfiring AK; and then, and here I think I am alone so far in thinking this....Harry, good, love-magicked Harry, Harry who DD says is more powerful than he can know, innocent baby-Harry sucked in the bit of soul with that magic, unintentionally but out of good's instinct to do what is helpful to good. And it would be helpful to good for a good person full of love to have possession of one of LV's precious soul-bits. What better leverage/power could anyone have over LV--kill me, kill a bit of yourself. On this killing point, it could be that simply killing a PERSON with a horcrux in them is enough to destroy them, if the bit of soul amalgamated with the rest of that person's soul (two and yet one?). Hence the powers transferred to Harry, etc.

This surmounts my major difficulty with the horcrux theory, which is the alleged dormancy of the soul bit (since here the soul gets to be active, but be dominated/corralled by all the good in Harry's intact soul), and the string of happenstance that has to fall into place if it is accidental. This way, LV is undone by what he always underestimates--the agency of love, love's natural, intrinsic impulse to act on behalf of concern for others (like Lily did, and which LV clearly didnt understand since he calls her a "foolish girl" for standing in the way).

This doesnt tell us the full implications of what it would mean for Harry to have been active in making himself the horcrux, except maybe that his life at its very beginning was an act of self-sacrifice/risk and THAT may be why Harry is allegedly so powerful. For him to be powerful in the sense of love magic, it seems like it would in part at least need to have been an act of his own agency that made him that way. This way, not only LV chose Harry as his equal, but Harry chose to take the challenge. And maybe it was even a sacrifice instigated by some young mercy for LV's soul; maybe Harry "did LV a solid" so to speak by sucking in the soul bit. Does LV owe Harry his life? Could THAT be what the prophecy really means, in part at least?

here is my two-cents (btw, i didn't read the whole thread, so if someone has already said this, i'm sorry and will give full credit to you for coming up with the idea):

i think harry was a horcrux, and when voldemort lost his powers, it was because he unintentionally put some of his soul into harry instead of whatever he was going to make the horcrux be. i think voldemort, during his long time in exile realizes this. this is the real reason voldemort insists on using harry to resurrect him in the fourth book. by taking harry's blood for the resurrection spell, voldemort was taking back his soul from harry's body; in essence, he was "cashing in" the horcrux. this would also explain that "look of triumph" in Dumbledore's eye in the fourth book, when harry tells him how voldemort got his body back. Dumbledore would of course be triumphant because he would realize that one of voldemort's horcruxes has been used up. this would also explain all of the qualities that harry and voldemort share: because harry had a piece of voldemort's soul, he grew up with a lot of voldemort's qualities.

alright, i know that's out there, but just wanted to see what you guys would think.

No, I don't think so. Even if they were dormant, it's not a very smart idea to leave pieces of your own soul lying around. Even if no one knew that it was an horcrux, they could be destroyed by accident. Also, the objects that hold Voldemort's souls have significance to him and are pretty valuable, for example Slytherin's Locket and Hufflepuff's cup, if they were just laying aound, any wizard would just steal it. So, overall, it's best to hide and protect the horcruxes. That way, they won't be destroyed, stolen, and you would always know where it was.



Just for the record, in the second book it wasn't the Voldemort trying to kill Harry, but his memory, so it doesn't really count because he wouldn't have known that Harry was a horcrux. In the third book, no Voldemort or memory was pesent. And in the fifth and sixth books, he told the Death Eaters not to harm Harry. So, he wasn't exactly always trying to kill Harry.



Interesting idea, but I actually find this to be more unlikely than the theory of Harry being an horcrux in the first place. How could this be more helpful for a good person full of love to have an evil soul of their enemy within them? To me, it puts them in more of a disadvantage because although he had the choice to step up to the challenge, now he no longer has the choice to live because he would have to die in order to make Voldemort mortal. So it's sort of like a lose and win-lose situation. Either you die, or you die and your enemy dies. How lovely! Me, as Voldemort, if ever faced with that situation, I would never think twice about being given the opportunity to kill the one with the powers I know not, even if that would play a large part in my demise. I would be contempt with defeating the Harry Potter after many years and avenging myself. But even then, I don't think that anyone has the strength to defeat Voldemort as a mere mortal wizard. Maybe they do, but right now, he just seems to powerful.

Hmm one cannot deny that the central theme over the entire septology is that Lord Voldemort wants to kill Harry. Since the Prophecy was discovered, Lord Voldemort has wanted Harry Potter dead. We would not have a story if Lord Voldemort did not want Harry dead, so I think it is safe to assume that he has indeed been trying to kill him the entire time. Many have asked a question that must have been proposed atleast 500 times: "Why would Lord Voldemort want to destroy one his own Horcruxes, it doesnt make sense!!" Well, as I must have said atleast the same amount of times is that it is very possible that Lord Voldemort did not know that Harry was the recieving end of an accidental Horcrux. That would explain the killling. See my posts to see my long, drawn out beliefs.

~Albus

Maybe I'm missing part of your meaning here, but it sounds like a perfect description of the actual situation of self-sacrifice that hero stories often involve, so I don't see how its a bad "lose-lose" since ones own sacrifice is the instrument of defeating the enemy of all. That's why soldiers throw themselves on grenades.
I would say it's helpful in the same way that anger and aggression are helpful to an ultimately kind and good person--they are fuel in the complex psychology of being human. Forceful impulses--even aggressive ones--from a fragment of a fragmented, damaged soul of LV, if coupled with the fullness of Harry's basically good nature, makes for a powerful figure. What I'm saying is that Harry's good can safely and productively incorporate the fragmentary elements of LV that are stored in him, making his good forceful in much the same way as natural aggression makes good people willing to sacrifice themselves for others, or to fight someone to protect their loved ones, or to be good athletes, or whatever. The world is not made up of good people and DeathEaters, it is full of people with mixed features. Harry has been given some very powerful mixed features from beyond himself, and his choices all his life have sculpted those features into the hero that he is, with some warts but fiercely kind.
And I do think its an eventual good to have leverage over your enemy by having his soul-anchor in your possession, even if it does require injury or death to dispose of it (given who THIS enemy is). Harry sucked it in not for his own good as much as for the good of all.

Oh, pumpkinjuice, when I posted that, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant, but now I do. At first, the idea did seem quite absurd, but now I see it to be surprisingly interesting. If the whole Harry is a horcrux thing is true (which I still don't fully support) then your idea is the way I would want it to be written out. Everything is about choices, and instead of it being an accident of Harry becoming an horcrux, he would have chose to be one, step up to the challenge as you say, and chose to sacrifice himself for the wizarding world. That would play right into his hero instincts and fit great within the story. I actually do like your idea pumpkinjuice (though I want to be clear to all that I don't support this theory). Kudos

And yes, Albus, Voldemort has always wanted Harry dead but he hasn't always tried to kill him. Know what I mean?

Im not quite sure i understand are you saying harry CHOSE to be a horcrux? If that is the case I dont understand because Harry was an infant when voldemort went to his house that night.

i have to disagree with the harry being a horcux theory because lv wants to murder harry and if harry has part of lv soul in him why would he want to destroy part of himself?

Mod Edit: Short posts aren't allowed. Make them longer or don't post at all. And surely you can come up with a better arguement then that!

Yes, I'm saying that in some fashion, infant Harry's inner nature made some effort to suck in that soul (hypothetically--this is, in the spirit of what UnknownLocket just said, IF he is to be a horcrux, it should be in this way). True, infants dont seem to exhibit much capacity for complex moral choice. But:
1. Infants are not blank, and do express needs, attachments, etc. that eventually fold into their mature moral identities.
2. Harry was already no ordinary infant. He was an infant that survived the AK curse, for whatever reasons. My notion is that the reasons have to do with some cross-section of what Harry already was by nature before the attack, and the effects of his mother's love-protection which is, we know, a "powerful magic" (I don't read such a description as meaning that it is simply a 'shield'; I think this love magic is more complex than that).
3. There may be something behind the "Lily's eyes" thing that is part of his capacity to act even at that age. Can it be a coincidence that the AK curse is the same color as the eyes in Harry's family? (there's a thread about that in the Library).
4. Some of the capacity for such effort may be a result of the curse itself--LV may have conferred on Harry an early capacity to act powerfully tho relatively unconsciously. So the "powers LV knows not" may have gotten going right away in virtue of LV marking him.
5. Harry's moral choices are heart-choices--an expression of his instinctual nature. I see no reason to assume that some real beginnings of that were not underway as he was an infant.

They are not blank, I agree but it takes years to fold into their mature moral identities. And Harry was one year old. Infants cry when they need something they, to put it that way, only care about themselves ( thats how it is), and I don`t believe JKR would change that.

If harry CHOSE to be a horcrux, wouldn`t that mean that he use magic and so somehow controld magic?
And wizard infants can not purposely use magic, that can not even older ones ( with exception of LV)

Pumpkinjuice i applaued you !!! You have given me the first theory involving Harry being a hrcrux that i can buy. I'm still not 100% convinced but this is the closest i've gotten to thinking Harry might be a Horcrux. I think its very well thought out and believeable and it takes care of the biggest problems i had with the Harry is a horcrux theory: 1. I don't believe soul pieces are dormant and your theory addresses that beatifully. 2. I couldn't buy that VL could accidentally send a horcrux directly into Harry but Harry sucking it in makes alot more sense to me becayse i believe that infant Harry was sentient to a degree it's very reasonable to assume that he could preform accidental magic even as an infant. There have been many instances in cannon that say that some magical born children exhibit signs of magic at a very young age. 3.I also believe that lilly's love sacrifice has more to it than just a protective "bubble". I think its possible that her love spell passed some degree of love capabilities to baby Harry and makes it logical to assume that he in turn would learn from his mothers sacrifice on some level and make a sacrifice himself. Inafants have the ability to bond with and recognize their mothers in the first 5 seconds i believe (it might be 5 minutes) of life. That shows they have some degree of awareness and i think its safe to assume that magic born babies may be more aware on some level. 4. No one has given at least in my opinion a good explination of how Harry inherrited some of VL's powers and also developed a link with him. If the soul pieces aren't dormant (which i still firmly believe) then it would make sense that if Harry sucked in a piece of VL's soul the soul had a place in Harry (something i've mentioned before but had no evidence to suppport) and lead to Harrys "dark" abilities and gave him power (possibly the power the dark lord knows not, which would also encompass love since Harry i'm assuming your saying sucked in the soul piece out of love and protection) but since Harry is inherently good he fought off his evil tendencies or powers and uses them for good instead. It could explain why the sorting hat wanted to put Harry in slytherin first but harry made the "choice" to not be evil or part of a group that exhibits evil tendancies. Everything in the HP books are about choices and i think your theory fits very well. Though i'm still not convinced though i'm geting there. I would by it more if Harry could remove the horcrux without dying, that would make more sense to me. Also i think this theory could lead creedance to what JK said about the scar being importent because of its nature or whatever(i'm paraphrasing here sorry) and it could support my theory that the scar is in the shape of a torn scar piece


unknown locket. In my post i had stated that LV would use things of importance to make his horcruxes but my point was he goes to exhorbenant measures to protect the places he keeps his horcruxes that if they were dormant he could just hide them or keep them in his lair or whatever i'm just saying he uses such strong magic to pprotect there location it makes sense that its because they are not dormant and he needs to hide them so no one can sense them. Thats not concrete proof he might just be doing that to just protect them in general but he seemed so cavalier about the diary and he underestimates peoples abilities to such a large degree that i think if the souls were dormant he wouldn't need such strong protection to hide their location. Does that make sense.

I also like the idea that someone mentioned (ican't remeber who sorry but when i do i'll givee you the credit) that maybe in the cemetary VL used the ritual or spell he preformed to etract the soul piece from Harry therefore restoring him to his real body instead of fetusmorte. He had to draw blood and i think that idea is valid maybe he needed to activate so to speak one of his horcruxes to regenerate himself to full power and thats the real reason he wanted Harry involved in the ritual. It would make sense that if Harry is or was a horcrux VL would have found out and if he was going to use a horcrux to revive himself he would use the one that would cause him the most harm, the one inside harry, and therefore remove that threat because Harry having a piece of VL's soul would be very detremental to VL. In which case i think that the reason that VL didn't want the DE's to kill Harry is because he wants to do it himself. Since he has removed the soul piece from Harry he now thinks he has the upperhand but he didn't want to resurface yet to build up fear to come up with a plan, to get DD out of the way and then his ultiate goal one he has been planning for 16 years could be completed, killing Harry. He wouldn't want anyone else to kill Harry for him, it's personal.
But anyway Pumpkinjuice your theaory its brilliant and fits very well. So kudos!!

Also on a side note i agree with Albus please read the prior posts in this thread at least enough so that the same arguments aren't being brought up and shot down daily for example "why would VL want to kill Harry if he were a horcrux?" That question has literally been answered like 10 times in just that last 5 or 6 pages. I'm semi new to this thread but i read all the posts before i posted (mostly to not look like an idiot) but also out of respect to people who have been depating these points for months.

XXwhatnow?XX do you have access to that quate i remeber something like that but i would really like to read the exact quote.
Also just because horcruxes don't attract attention doesn't mean their nature is inherently dormant. They could still carry traits, or have regenerative power. I think what JK meant is that Horcruxes are made without them having to flash geen or bounce around because they hold energy ect i'm brainfarting right now so my explinations aren't so eloquent at the moment (long night) and i still don't see how that is evidence against harry being a horcrux. We only have cannon on how a horcrux reacts in an inanimate object not in how it would react in a living being so we have no idea what things would happen if Harry was a horcrux we can only speculate and it seems logical to me that horcruxes would "act" or maybe have different capabilities (i have a word i want to use and its on the tips of my fingers but i can't for the life of me get it out!!!) in a living being.

Also i just thought what if in the prophecy where it refrences the dark lord marking harry as his equal its talking about making harry a horcrux. I don't know if thats been brought up before but that would make some semblence of sense because having a piece of VL's soul in him would make Harry marked as equal as is possible. And maybe VL doesn't know harry is a horcrux yet and the soul piece inside harry is the power the dark lord knows not, comb ined with harry's inherent love cababilities what if harrys goodness could change the piece of VLs soul that was inside of him. I'm speaking hypotheitically here cause i'm still on the fence as to whether Harry is a horcrux but Albus and Pumpkinjuice i'm starting to get your way of thinking and finding it more logical now.

Yes, I know what your saying, but I still think that Voldemort would have wanted to protect his horcruxes more. They are like priceless diamonds to him, and for things like that you don't just hide it underneath your bed, but instead you stash it within a safe which is then hidden somewhere in the house where it's almost impossible to locate. I don't think that it matters whether the horcruxes are dormant or not (though I believe they are). If they weren't, then surely Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard of time, would have sensed such a thing within Hogwarts and done something about it.



Voldemort only used Harry's blood because he was the one that made him into "Vapormort" in the first place and he also wanted to have Lily's sacrifice which runs through Harry's veins within him. Also, you can't use horcruxes to bring you back to life. If that was possible, then surely Voldemort wouldn't have waste 13 years just to use the horcrux that supposedly lies within Harry when there were 6 or 5 others right at his fingertips. Horcruxes only stopped Voldemort from dying but could not give him the body he needed.



I agree with you that Voldemort wants to personally kill Harry, but I'm not sure about the whole removing the soulpiece stuff. I'm still holding out that this theory is just that, a theory.

I don't think I've posted here already - but if I have and if I repeat myself then I'm sorry.

I'm not quite sure as to what my definate opinion is in this topic. I'm kind of sitting on the fence here. It would make sense to have him as a horcrux because then he would have to die heroically in order to kill Voldy. It would make for a bitter-sweet ending. But if Harry really was a horcrux, then why would Voldomort be trying to kill him? I understand the fact that he thinks he's all perfect and doesn't think that anybody but him is aware of the horcruxes but still. Surely he's not stupid enough to think that DD wouldn't know and not tell Harry. I'm not sure. There are soo many things to discuss on this topic, there are soo many supporting reasons that I have but I could go on for days so I'll just leave it here and if any of you want to build off of it, be my guest.

Bonjour Madamoiselle! Well, there is two options that I can give to appease your inquiries at the moment:

• Harry being a Horcrux was on accident, and Voldemort doesn't know about it.
• Harry being a Horcrux was an accident and Voldemort found out, but decided Harry was worth 1/7th of his soul rather than Voldemort's life as a whole.

These two things would satisfy the aspect of Voldemort wanting to kill him, while allowing Harry to be a Horcrux. For more theories on Harry being a Horcrux, visit the first post of this thread. (my theory is theory #1 )

~Albus

It would be impossible to list all of the reasons why yes, Harry is, definately, a horcrux

Mod Edit: How about you list them? It would make better conversation then what you've posted. And besides, short posts aren't allowed, so you may as well elaborate on your thougths.

unknownlocket you are completely right, though i never said that was the only reason he used harry's blood (it may have sounded like that though. Apologies ) and i agree those are the reasons he told his DE's and wormtail, and yes he wanted harry's blood to remove lilly's protection and for revenge, but i think that VL is very secretive about his horcruxes, it appears that none of the DE's even know exactly to what "lengths he has gone to defeat death" (paraphrase) so if none of the DE's knew about the specifics of the horcruxes or about them at all then he wouldn't have mentioned the fact that he also needed harry to regenerate himself by using his horcrux contained in Harry. We know that horcruxes are anchors to keep your soul piece in your body from passing on but we don't know for sure that you don't have to use a horcrux that you made to regenerate yourself, so to speak, when you are put in mortal danger or an attampt on your life is made. I believe that horcruxes have 2 purposes: to anchor the soul, and to use the energy of the stored soul in some ritual to give yourself "life" again. This is only speculation of course but i think it makes sense. Also the reason VL didn't use his horcruxes to regenerate himself when he was vapormorte for 13 years was because he had no body no wand and no friends. Then he possessed quirrell and i think he saw an opportunity to make himself even more immortal with the sorcerors stone and return himself back to his bodily form without having to "use up" one of his horcruxes. Again just an educated guess.


yes but you could say that for the flip side of the argument. I don't really understand your post are you just saying that there is no way Harry isn't a horcrux? Could you maybe list one of the impossible amounts of reasons why harry is a horcrux?

It is quite possible that Harry is a horcrux. When Voldemort killed Harry he may have been planning to make his final horcrux with the death of the wizard he chose to be his arch enemy. After Lily's ancient magic and Voldemorts downfall, the scar may have become a horcrux. So love may have help create Harry's horcrux and like his mother, Harry will have to sacrifice himself for Voldemort to be defeated. Therefore the scar must be a horcrux, and Harry's death will pave the way for a wizard with uncommon skill to kill Voldemort. Snape.

Oooh isn't this interesting. I have never seen so many newcomers come into the thread already believing Harry is a Horcrux. The past few days have been a dream come true. Though I doubt that we will ever surmount the 15 to 60 vote on the topic, but yet again I also hate statistics like that... they aren't completely truthful. I wonder how many newbies came on here, voted for "NO" and then posted something like "It would be stupid for Voldemort to try to kill Harry, he would be killing himself, and thats stupid".. then they are told the amazing revelation of the ways around this 'stupid idea'. So, I wonder if the poll is even accurate in that sense.

There are many reasons and means for Harry to be a Horcrux, the possibilities with magic are endless in this case because we know so little. What does the opposing side use for an arguement? The fact that they don't want it to happen and the ideas that this type of thing would be illogical in regards to magic and writing. The pro-Horcrux arguement, in my opinion, far out weighs the anti-Horcrux... I mean, the theories are endless as to what could have happened.

~Albus

Albus i agree with you thhat the poll is not very true at this point i had voted that HP was not a horcrux when i joined this thread after reading like 6 pages of posts but i now want to change to undecided and i think that the poll probably doesn't reflect the actual mood of the thread right now.

Also i was very firmly in the HP is not a horcrux group but because of the thoughtful and logical ideas you and pumpkin juice have proposed i'm now on the fence, i'm not completely convinced but i'm now having doubts.



Although i am now on the fence i don't think its fair to downplay the opposing sides arguments, just like you many of them including me have put great time and thought into our posts. And i don't think that the only arguments against HP being a horcrux are that we don't want it to happen. I have brought up many ideas that i think are logical and point to the fact that in JK's world HP would not be a horcrux. I still am not convinced that someone could accidentally send a soul piece (a very powerful piece of magic which we are led to believe takes lots of power and preparation) into a living being when that wasn't what he was (as we're led to believe) planning on putting the horcrux in in the first place. To me its much more logical that if he accidentally sent out his horcru in a fit of desperation and emotion it would go into whatever e prpared to hold it. Something he maybe brought with him to GH. Also since most of what we are doing is speculation how do we know that a soul piece can just enter something without prior prepartion. I mean this is a powerful, hard to work piece of magic and in my opinion you would have to prepare the thing you want to put your soul in to be ready to accept your soul. Harry had no prepartions made on him to be able to accept a soul piece. Thats one of the things i'm still having problems with along with the fact that if souls are dormant and Harry has one in him how did he almost get put in slytherin, speak parseltounge, have a link with VL etc. The theory i find the most logical is that baby Harry sucked in the soul piece subconsciously as a result of is mothers soul protection to helpprotect others. That would mean that Harry had the capacity for great love since he was an infant wic helps to explain why Harry would be able to defeat VL.

Albus everything we aredoing in this thread is making logical guesses or speculations from things we are told in the book. Anyone could be right or we could all be wrong. And yes there are endless possibilities on the side of Harry being a Horcrux but there are also endlesspossibilities to why he might not be.

I am not a person to knock down other people's opinions, but to me Harry could not be a horcrux. There are a few reasons why. The most obvious is why would Voldemort make Harry horcrux, he has been trying to kill him throughout the entire series. If Voldemeort killed Harry, he would be destroying one of his horcruxes. java script:emoticon(':blink:', 'smid_8')

Unless I missed something, I have not seen anyone propose this theory:

LV consciously used HP as a horcrux because he fears death.

Explanation:

Because LV fears death so and has no true understanding of love, he cannot envisage that HP would ever sacrifice himself.

Furthermore, he knows HP would have to kill himself *before* LV, himself, can finally be killed - or we revert back to the original scenario of LV's remnant spirit piece floating around (not living but to him, still better than death).

Remembering that LV is fiercely independent, he is not as cognisant of HP weakening him, sacrificing himself and getting someone else to finish the job (love angle comes into play here).

Edit: To cover the "why would LV kill HP" angle -> LV has many other horcruxes so would be perfectly capable of writing off HP as a lost cause. Although he may have originally under-estimated love and friendship as a possible mechanism of completing the task of killing him, LV is not stupid and could have readily reconsidered.

Edit^2: Am I imagining/mis-remembering things or did HP save Snape's life somehow?

Paul.

Albus, I too agree that the possibilities are endless with magic....the weird irony of all our speculation is that we apply logic/physics/common sense to come up with theories, and around the corner some new bit of magic might be waiting that circumvents all those logical conditions. I wish I had been around on the boards over the years before each new book came out, to see how these developments were absorbed, how they changed theories.

But I also agree with vandownbytheriver (thanks, vdbtr, for your compliment on my "sucking" theory!), who said:


I think that's a fairer representation of the "other" side of the horcrux argument. It is less detailed than your own pro-horcrux theory because almost by definition your theory has a higher burden of proof (which you have met, I think, about as well as it can be met in this magical world!).

But, having said that, your (Albus's) comment calls attention to a really important element here, which is the emotional disposition of the readers. Many many, including myself, do not want Harry to be a horcrux under any method of its creation; I'm not sure this is because I simply don't want him to have to die (and I'm not sure he would have to to get the horcrux out of him--again, we don't know what horcruxes in living things might entail), but because of a deep aesthetic resistance to the idea. Plus I think it will occupy so much of the story of the last book that it would preclude JKR spending adequate time on other things I want to hear a lot more about. Yes, I think that last is my real reason not to want him a horcrux--narrative space for other themes.

Which brings us around from the reader's emotions to JKR's emotions as writer--she has said that DH is now "her favorite" book she's written. How likely is the de-horcruxing of Harry to be a main theme that she would come to describe as her "favorite" novel? I really don't know. But these narrative issues do give me pause--there is so much more in the magical plotline that needs resolution that the dehorcruxing would just get in the way of, I think. I wonder what our hermeneuticist, Fish, would think about this.....

Ooh, I agree with you pumpkinjuice!



They're still around, some of them. Here are 21 pages on who the HBP could be, and there are some very interesting ideas! And what I find most solace in is the fact that Snape is so rarely mentioned! It just adds a really fun dimension of unpredictability to all our theorising!

But I have no problem with admitting that I think Harry shouldn't be a horcrux purely because I don't want him to be. It's just not because I don't want him to die really, because I would be fine with that.



Very well put. It doesn't feel right to me, and I can't help but think that if Jo has tried to bring one thing across, it's the power of an untarnished soul. That image just can't be as beautiful if Harry had an evil, foul bit of soul living in him. It's not so much a technical argument (it's not possible because this and this...), it's about the beauty of a pure and wholesome soul, and its ability to love.

The 'powers the Dark Lord knows not' is nothing but love, and Jo made absolutely sure we knew that. She didn't have Harry trained up as a duelling champion, which makes his ultimate victory even more dependant on being able to love in some way or other. He'd never win a proper duel against Voldemort, and she made Harry and the reader realise that very well. It's like she purposefully cut off all other possibilities - only a pure soul can love like Harry does, and that's his only advantage. Jo has made Harry's ability to love, not his magical talent, his means of defeating Voldemort.

So how come it's Harry? Let's assume he has a horcrux residing in him, and let's compare him with, say, Hermione.

Hermione is a kind girl who has never killed another person, and who cares about others (SPEW...). Harry is a kind boy who cares about others and who has also never killed anyone, but he has a piece of Voldemort residing in him. Which of them has the more wholesome being? I'd say Hermione, for obvious reasons. If a wholesome being is the key to the chosen one's power, why isn't Hermione in a better position to defeat Voldemort? Why did Jo make Harry the chosen one, when she so obviously tried to convey to us the power of a pure soul's ability to love within her world? The image of the chosen one is obviously meant to be that of an untarnished being.

If Harry had an evil piece of soul inside him, that image would be marred and polluted, and I'd think all this about pure souls versus the act of ultimate evil (i.e. by tarnishing one's soul by committing murder) was a pretty feeble kind of idea.

I was always a little afraid of this board because there are alot of people out there that seem to be experts on this question (and i am not one of those!) haha but i'll give it a shot...



i totally agree with you capricorn. however, there is the whole "fight fire with fire" thing that could solidify harry having a piece of voldemort in him... guess we wont truly know till book 7. anyways, i have read alot and the more i read posts, i am starting to believe harry does have a piece of voldemort in him... unfortunately...

i do not however think that harry IS voldemorts soul. like harrys soul died and voldemorts soul resides in his body. no, i dont like that theory one bit... for one, harry is capable of love. and, by the words of dumbledore, voldemort cannot love (no matter if he is whole or not. not one bit of him can love. not his hear, not his thoughts, not his pinky toe. nothing.)

but if he did have a piece of voldemort in him (his scar maybe? i dont know where it would be) it would definately explain the whole "transfer of powers thing." (speaking parsle tounge, being able to see in voldemorts mind, confusing the sorting hat, so on and so forth). there is an uncanny resemblance between harry and voldy. so that is why i believe that there is a piece of voldy in harry.

how can this have happened? by accident like most have said? some how voldy did wandless magic? i have not the slightest clue. however, i dont know who said it, but someone said that making a horcrux was the deepest feeling that voldy had at the time of death, and therefore did "wandless" magic and made his horcrux. i dont think that was what voldy was thinking though. I am pretty sure voldy was thinking "holy [edit]. I am about to die!!! NOOOOO!!!" haha or something like that... he did fear death above all else, and i am sure he was scared beyond imagination.

So, is harry a horcrux? i dont know, but there are alot of evidence that point to him being one. i believe that he could be one (personally i hope he is not! because of what capricorn said "The image of the chosen one is obviously meant to be that of an untarnished being.") it should be the pure vs the tainted. but then again, jkrowing could pull the fight fire with fire cliche on us...

Mod Edit: Hiya! The censors picked up a cuss word of some sort. Please be careful with them, as this is a family site. Thanks!

Capricorn, I'm glad you liked my post and that we agree on some of these possibilities and the aesthetic undesireability of same. But, I am not sure Harry is meant to be utterly untarnished in his soul. I don't know, to me the story is more interesting if Harry is just like everyone else in being a mix of good and bad, tho mostly good as a result of his choices (which, admittedly, are often instinctual). I think Harry is meant to have a basically good and loving nature, but that does not exclude the possible presence of genuinely evil-potential elements, or the actual evil-bits of a LV soul fragment. His being the Chosen One doesn't depend, in my mind, on his purity, but on LV having marked him, and his own choices having responded. LV's choices and Harry's choices are what make him the chosen one.

Having said that, it still doesnt aesthetically sit right with me for him to be one, in terms of the flow of the story. But JKR could write this aspect in a way that would persuade me otherwise, I guess!

Like your new avatar, by the way.

I concede, it isn't really as extreme as that. There must be something of Voldemort in Harry, and I suppose on a technical level, that 'sinks' my untarnished soul idea, but I don't think it's a black and white matter. You're right, our resistance is because of the aesthetics concerned. You said it better than I can...

However, I do believe that, by a lucky coincidence, Voldemort chose the boy who had more of the 'powers he knows not' than many others have. Harry is unusual in his ability to love. I've quoted it a lot, but in HBP near the end, Dumbledore asks Harry if he realises how very few wizards who would have been able to see what Harry saw in the Mirror of Erised. Dumbeldore says it was his ability to love that made him see his family. Voldemort had a hand in placing him in different circumstances, but Harry still chose love instead of bitterness and selfishness.

If, for argument's sake, Harry loved so strongly by choice (choice or nature - it's very closely related), then he is still capable of feeling such love and selflessness because of his pure soul. That is Dumbledore's explanation for why Voldemort could not endure to possess Harry, and as we know, and Jo confirmed, his guesses are never very wide of the mark. It is an important element in Harry's make-up (for lack of a better word), and that's why the idea of him being host to an evil piece of soul is ... blunt, somehow. In my opinion, anyway. I find the idea of a piece of soul much more frightening and intrusive into Harry's wholesomeness than a more mysterious, vague connection.

Erm, whatever. Aesthetics. That's the word.



Thanks!

Yes, I definitely agree with that. He does have a nature that is intrinsically well-oriented, despite what LV did, despite not having his parents around, despite losing people right and left, and despite the Dursleys.
It just occurred to me, unfortunately, that this might set him up as an interesting horcrux object--the other objects, particularly the things descended from the founders, have intrinsic powers even before LV starts horcruxing them. And Harry does too, as you've nicely pointed out. But his horcrux is, if it exists at all, unintentional (on LV's part, anyhow) and so may not contain any additional LV magic like he grafted onto the other ones. That means that only the object's original powers are in play, which might make for an interesting story-line/contrast with the destruction of the others. Maybe it means he can destroy it without being destroyed. It would really cheese me off, I think, if Harry has to destroy himself to get rid of that vile contagion, hero story or no.

Hmm I love to see my favorite topic so chock full of discussion!



Yes, I very much agree. It is of the kind of irony that JKR is most famous for The most innocent of things turn out to be deadly. (ex: the diary) Harry is, as you say, intrinsically good--- making him the prime candidate for such a dire fate. However, I don't think if JKR took this line of plot that you would get "cheesed off"... she would write it in a way that would satisfy us and in a way that would make sense.

I fear, however, that this discussion is forever going to go in circles (well, atleast until DH) unless we get some sort of clue or hint from JKR until then.

~Albus

I have never believed that HArry is a Horcux. Nor do I believe that his scar is either. Noone really knows why Voldy chose Harry on that fateful night, but when he did choose HArry he met his match. Other than Dumbledore I believe that Harry has proven himself to be much better at alot of things than Voldy is. Harry has defeated him like how many times? He is much more powerful than even Voldy himself had ever anticipated..HArry will best Voldy in the end. But remember some of Harry's blood pumps through Voldy's cold veins (the GoF) so maybe with a little bit of "The Chosen One" blood unning through him may help or hurt Voldy.

Hi DracosLady! We actually do know the reason Harry was chosen by Lord Voldemort. If you remember, in OotP, it was explained that Trelawney made a Prophecy which foretold the downfall of the Dark Lord by one who would be born as the Seventh Month dies. As we know, both Harry and Neville were born as the 7th month dies, but Voldemort chose Harry because he was a half-blood like himself.

~Albus

JKR has made it very clear that Dumbledore is usually right in his assumptions, she even stated so in an interview. Dumbledore had no suspicions that Harry was a horcrux or else he would have told Harry. There would be more clues, but he didn't, and there weren't. So, i am trusting Dumbledore and saying that the 7 horcruxes are what he thought, and that Harry is not a horcrux.

Albus, I should clarify that it wasnt so much Harry's innocence that sets him up as that his goodness and his love constitute intrinsic powers analogous to those of the other horcrux objects--my post didnt make that clear. I suspect you'd still agree....
I did say somewhere that JKR would probably write such a story-line to my satisfaction, so I concur with you there, it's just I would prefer that she had not.
Strange, it's somehow harder now knowing the book is "in the can" rather than being written, to anticipate how it will feel to read it.

Well, in my mind this would be proof as to why Harry is NOT a horcrux. If LV couldnt possess Harry due to his love, how could a piece of his soul be there too? I guess you could say its because the piece of soul is detached from LV..

I know JKR said that there wasnt much importance in the shape of Harry's scar, but it just kind of makes me think.. Its distinctively in the shape of a lightning bolt, and its representative of what he's been through in a lot of different ways. When i think of a lightning bolt, and a human i think of what happens when someone gets hit by a lightning bolt. The lightning goes in one part, but the person doesnt store the electrical the charge of the lightning.
It goes in one part and out the other, which might have happened with that piece of soul. What if it went into harry and exited, almost leaving him a "magical residue" or something, lingering affects of some of LV's abilities.

Its a little out there but I'm sure someone will find it interesting

Solitude2: that is a very succinct description of how I feel about Harry's absorbtion of Voldemort's inherent skills/powers. The AK curse may have coursed through Harry upon contact, but so did it exit, leaving Harry with residual talents of Voldemort, not a piece of him.

like Capricorn said it just wouldn't be rght.. Of course there is a connection between Harry and VOldemort through that scar but it's not a horcrux
It just wouldn't be right.
It be a very very weird twist though, and these theorys are great

I've always interpreted the books to be saying that Harry, as a baby, was not anything special. It was the events of that night (the gift of love imprinted on him by his mother as well as the gift of powers imprinted on him by Voldemort) that made him the special person that he is. I believe that Harry considers this at some point (although I can't recall the specific location). He thinks about how he and Neville could have easily switched places. It plays into the irony of the situation. Voldemort didn't hear the whole prophecy and unwittingly created his worst enemy by trying to kill Harry.

I agree that there are some obvious options for JKR to play up the purity of Harry while still making him a horcrux. I have always thought of Harry and Voldemort as opposite sides of the same coin. They have similar backgrounds, yet chose very opposite ends of the good/bad spectrum. By making Harry a horcrux, JKR has the opportunity to illustrate their differences more completely. Voldemort fears death. Harry doesn't. This would definitely come into play if Harry were a horcrux. Voldemort is selfish and would hurt anyone he could to protect himself. Harry is selfless and would do anything to protect the innocent. Once again, this would have obvious connections to Harry as a horcrux plotlines. Voldemort has a tarnished split soul that has been spread to who knows where. Harry has an intact soul that is pure (with a tagalong Voldemort chunk). Perhaps if Harry dies, the fact that his soul is intact will play into his ability to come back while Voldemort's damaged soul cannot return. Just because Harry has a piece of Voldemort inside him, it doesn't necessarily mean that the piece of soul has incorporated itself into Harry's pure soul does it?

I think it iz absolutely impossible for Harry to be a horcrux. My reasoning iz the fact that a piece of Voldemort's soul would be incredibly valuable to Voldemort, saying that do u really think Voldemort would want to destroy part of his soul? No!