pumpkinjuice



yes i agree with you i do not believe LV would have strayed from the "seven" horcrux idea. with LV(the original that died in GH) counting as one...there would be (supposed) six others. (ring, diary, locket, ?, ?, ?) one of the >?< is the soul piece that resides in LV now. so there are two others that LV had to create. he was short at the time he planned to kill harry. so lets just say that a bomerrang was the other. lol. so LV had to create another. DD said that LV more then likely planned to make his seventh with the death of harry(the one destined to kill him) LV didnt get too because he died! in trying to kill harry.



Pumpkinjuice...if i could give you the page number i could. but i recall DD saying that yes Nagini might be a substitute for a horcux due to lack of time and lack of another founder object. in that aspect i agree with you. however, it goes against all common since to put a soul piece inside a dead body. LV thought he was killing harry and AK curse is pretty quick. i thinkk that is too complicated and not consistent with the other books if LV put a soul piece in side harry in lighting fast speed relizing amazingly fast that his spell was now coming at him. its just doesnt seem probable. so i dont think harry is a horcux.

through DD and Slughorns memory we find that LV just liked the idea of 7 horcux's cause 7 is the magical number. i do not recall 7 of them having any other special significance other then LV liked the idea of it. (DD clears that up when he is talkin with harry about his Speculation that there are seven)

Orome, IF Harry is a horcrux it is by accident. I was saying LV MEANT to make a horcrux that NIGHT, WITH Harry's death as the killing, but using an object from one of the founders as the horcrux container itself. What I was saying is that that object did not get to become a horcrux, and that leaves the question, WHAT OBJECT AND WHERE IS IT?

My other point was that Harry, if a horcrux, is an extra and unintentional horcrux, which may have voided any additional magical protection that the number of 7 soul-bits was giving LV.

yes if LV was to make harry's death his seventh horcrux does that mean he already had a recepticle? if he did where is it? what was it? on the hary bein a horcrux by accident i dont agree with. i remember reading a post and in the books. a soul wants to be whole. so unless LV did the ritual to send the sixth torn piece to harry in the split second before he died harry isnt a horcrux. its not coherent for it to be accident. to me...it seems to improbbale and a little to "out there" for LV to do the rituals and dicide to put the piece inside harry in the split Seconds before he died. plus u have to ask ur self y wud he do something that rash...especially if he knew that he had other horcurxs waitin on him?

pumpkinjuice

u did get me thinking....
if LV had a founders object ready to be used after killin harry where did it go. seeing it seems like Nagini is a horcrux does that mean he doesnt have that object anymore. did DD take it? or if he does still have it why didnt he use it...why did use Nagini? or did he use both seing how he used a horcux already he decided to catch back up and thave a total of seven again...equalling a overall total of eight. so if he did have it did he use when he reguevenated and also use Nagini. if so what was it?

[quote name='Albus Dumbledore' date='Mar 1 2007, 12:33 AM' post='335199']
Hmm Voldemort would not know he is missing a bit of his soul for he cannot see it.. its not something that is tangible enough to know its gone. Plus, he says it was pain beyond pain as he was ripped from his body.. might a piece of his soul gone missing then in all the turmoil? I think so.

To be devils advocate,

1. if he could not feel a bit of missing soul how would he know if he actually tore a piece to
make a horocrux in the first place. Is there a tell on an object that saws hay I am a horocrux

2. it has been argued that he found out there was a piece of soul in Harry when he tried to possess him at the MoM. Again if it is not tangible enough to notice it being gone how would one notice it being there?

I will agree that the horocrux is dormant, but what activates it. A virus will look for a host to live in, most our fragile and can withstand exposure for a short period of time. The horcrux lays dormaint until it is awakened by?

For the Diary being a unique horocrux. I agree and disagree, Lv had planned to use the diary to open the chamber all along. I doubt he understood the effect it would have on a living person. So the fact that one had to interact with it in away that one uses a diary, and it just happens that this one wrote back, and in doing do feeded off the writters soul. It layed dormant utiil Ginny awoke it, then it started to feed of her.

So my argument on the piece of soul in the ring I feel has merit. Please correct me if I am mistaken but I do not recall DD saying he destroyed the horocrux before putting the ring on his finger. So what does one do with a ring, they put it on there finger. Placing the ring on his finger would then awaken the piece of soul inside.

DD did what he had to do, remeber that to this point we do not know if Snape has any knowledge of the horocruxes, therefore I am assuming that he does not, what is DD going to tell him when he goes for help, hay I got a piece of Voldemort soul crawiling up my arm, what can you do about it. Snape is well versed in dark arts and I again am assuming that he would have known what to do. What intrest me is that when Snape talked to Bella he commented on DD getting injuried in his battle with LV at the MoM. Is he flat out lying to Bella or is he just relaying what he was told by DD of his injury?

Anyway just a couple thoughts

why would harry be a horacrux

I really don't think that Harry is a horcrux. I mean because there is this really complicated situation that would ruin the books maybe. I'm confused about it but here it goes: if Harry was a horcrux, then wouldn't he have to kill himself first? I mean in order to stop Voldemort from dying and going into Harry himself because Harry was a horcrux. It sounds very confusing, but I think that I've made a good point,feel free to correct me.



*Sirius*

I don't really think ANYONE here is pointing to Harry being a horcrux K_the death eater & preorderedbook7!

Important points i get are that firstly cause of the rebound of the AK and all, Voldy couldn't use one of HARRY'S OBJECTS to make horcrux as he wanted to cause of Harry being destined to be his downfall and all.
So voldy's soul (if he tore it off at all.... cause not all murders lead to horcrux making otherwise most death eaters would have horcruxes! ) didn't have anywhere to go ...... Cause Voldy didn't put it into anything and also he vanished!

I wonder: Could it be the "In essence divided" ??

Pumpkinjuice, I apologize for not responding to your post before... I could have sworn it wasn't there. Anyway, on to the question of dormancy:

It's a simple answer really and I will I could be a little less blunt but; I disagree with everything about the minimal activeness and all the life-force/essence stuff. We know Horcruxes go against the nature of the soul and the soul is already in an unnatural state.. so why not complete dormancy? Why is there a need to have minimal activeness in something merely serves to anchor the main soul to the earth? Being active in any sense would serve absolutely no purpose save for the possible revealing of the objects/persons true nature of being a Horcrux.. which we know is foolish because Horcruxes are to remain hidden. So why the need at all for even the minimal amount of activity? I just cant see it.

Again with the Diary... yes the Diary became active and attempted to take over Ginny.. but why would every Horcrux do that? It would be foolish. Again, I point you all to my Rogue Horcrux theory I posted in a couple posts above. It better explains my view on the Diary. F.lamanna, I completely disagree with the statement you made about Tom Riddle understanding the effects of the Diary. The Diary was meant to be used as both Horcrux and Weapon (opening chamber) and is very special. and I believe that Tom Riddle knew full well what the effects were going to be... whether or not he planned on the rogue nature of it.. I do not know.



Excuse me, I have been pointing at this for 8 months today and I believe my theories are just as strong as your theories against the topic. I also find it very rude of you to make such claims in a discussion setting.

K_the death eater, sadly what we think will ruin the book is not taken into account in the evidence against this theory. Many people, including myself, said that JKR would never kill off Dumbledore because he was a fan-favorite and was essential to the plot.. guess what happened last book? I think that JKR is a good enough writer to pull off something like this and I do not think it would ruin the books.

~Albus

I hope that I'm not repeating anything anyone aready stated cause I did not have time to read all of the posts. I refused to believe that Harry was a Horcrux at first but, I just finished reading POA for like the 100th time and I found something odd. Fudge says that he did not know why the dementors would try to kiss an inocent boy. Well the book doesn't say anything about the dementors trying to kiss Black or Hermione by the lake, only HARRY. I believe that this is because they could sense Voldemort's soul in Harry. Far fetched but what do you guys think?

You know.. that is very very interesting. I had heard something before about this and didnt think too much of this.. but I find it very very intriguing at the moment. We all know that the Dementors probably helped scour the world (perfect really, since Muggles cant see them) to look for Lord Voldemort and we know that once they get orders they don't back down... we saw that with Barty Crouch Jr... So is it possible that the Dementors, which then were loyal to the Ministry, could have sensed the soul of Voldemort lying dormant inside of Harry? I think its possible.

On a side note, in a similar line of inquiry, I was thinking about the Sorting Hat. I wonder if it saw Voldemort inside of Harry and that is why it wanted to put him in Slytherin. I believe that Harry may visit the Sorting Hat once more and that it will tell him a lot of things he did not know. Perhaps the Hat told Dumbledore, and Dumbledore decided to keep it from Harry to protect him from the truth as long as he could.

~Albus

ok i dont think he is and here is my simplest reasoning in the matter. voldemorts main goal is to kill harry...so if he kills harry hed be destroying his own horcrux and that really doesnt seem like something voldemort would be stupid enough to do. there are other reasons but thats the most obvious one...

Yeah the most obvious clue is often the most redundant. You see Voldemort would not attempt to kill Harry as Horcrux because in all probability Voldemort probably didnt know. Most theories that stand the test of debate usually involve a lack of knowledge on Harry being a Horcrux on Voldemort's part. If you read the first post on the first page you will see how Harry can be a horcrux without Voldemort knowing. They are quite convincing if you get your own desire for Harry not dying out of the mix.

~Albus

Albus, my point about dormancy is a metaphysical one. Soul is soul is soul is soul. If soul is active, soul is active, wherever it is and regardless of whether it has been torn from the rest of some individual's soul. My reluctance to concede dormancy is an appeal to the concept of the essence of a soul being fundamentally different from the essence of material/organic things. That is, if this is the kind of view of souls that JKR is giving us, and it does seem to be. But like I said, this may be splitting hairs, in the sense that a soul piece functioning as hurcrux, even if not fully "dormant" in the organic sense (since it does not share its essential properties with organic things), may indeed be for all intents and purposes undetectable. In retaining some sense of the minimal activity of being the identifiable soul of the owner of the horcrux, I am not asserting that a horcrux is little homuncular personality lurking in a locket, ring, or snake.

However, since we do not know that utter dormancy can pertain to a horcrux, and we don't know if there is (as there may be) an important difference between a horcrux in a living thing and a horcrux in a locket, I think there are very good reasons to suspect that the presence of a horcrux in Harry would be somewhat in evidence.

One bit of evidence for this, and forgive me if your very early postings addressed this, as I cannot remember the answer, is the following: DD says the reason he suspects that Nagini may have become LV's last (intentional) horcrux is because of the "degree of control" he has over Nagini, or words to that effect. This seems to indicate that he thinks that a horcrux in a living thing DOES represent a different set of possibilities as to levels of activity of horcrux-in-receptacle (such that LV would have exceptional control over Nagini, even for a parselmouth). And, we know that DD has thought long and hard about LV's connection with Harry such that he assigned Snape to teach him Occlumancy to shut down some of the channels. This seems to suggest that DD thinks there is a special kind of connection between a horcrux and its owner/maker that is different from the connection that Harry and LV have. This may be because he thinks a horcrux could not have been made of Harry accidentally (and mayb he's wrong about this); or it may be because the kind of connection he sees with Nagini bears special signs of the kind of active connection an owner has with its (therefore active) horcrux in a living thing, signs that are absent in Harry.

So, if there are signs of an active connection between LV and Nagini that give LV some kind of control in Nagini, doesn't that suggest activity in the horcrux? Or do you think DD is meaning, without at all saying so, that LV has put some other special charms on Nagini to give him (LV) control over his living horcrux object?

Excellent explanation Pumpkinjuice on your thinkings of the nature of dormancy.. er lack thereof in the soul.. it was convincing if I adopt the same metaphysical views of the soul. I believe, however, that the soul changes drastically when torn and encased in a Horcrux, so my belief on dormancy still stands strong.

I believe that we have reached yet another one of the HP's series plateaus in regard to theory. I believe that the soul is changed and becomes dormant, and have evidence to suggest that, and you believe that the soul is the same state at all times, no matter where it is... and you have convincing evidence as well. For now all we can do is merely note the two as theories and work from there.

Now onto Nagini. I do remember that Nagini was explained by Dumbledore as being a candidate for a horcrux due to the level of control over her by Voldemort. I believe this can be taken two ways:

• the first choice is the choice to put forth, that Voldemort has control of Nagini on a higher level because of the Horcrux he placed inside of her
• the second choice is my belief on the topic, that Voldemort was able to put the Horcrux in her because of his level of control over her.. before the horcrux

The second choice, as said, is my view. I believe that Dumbledore's words about the control was Voldemort reasoning for making her a Horcrux. Voldemort keeps her close and she does his bidding so he knows she would have been a suitable host for his soul.

~Albus

I agree Albus, that we are lacking some important information to know more about souls and horcruxes, to say nothing of the more fundamental and normal relationship of souls and bodies, in the HP series. There are times when the thinking in the series seems absolutely dualistic (souls and bodies are absolutely two separate and essentially different kinds of things). There are other times when it seems like she is not at all buying into this difference, but offering a very different way of seeing the relative existence of minds and bodies, one which implies a need to change our thinking about bodies so that they can be seen to function a lot more like minds (in being flexible as to form, in being able to change radically, in not being bound by mundane "physical laws" as are articulated in muggle physics.

Your notion of how LV has control over Nagini is ingenious. I'm not convinced, but it nicely renders your theory consistent with the narrative. Putting the control before the horcrux does solve the problem I pointed out.

As to a soul changing radically when torn from its original: I find this intriguing, but here's my thinking on the matter....and I admit its a bit of a philosophical/moral argument for why I want to see it the way I do:
The soul when it murders sunders itself, whether or not it makes a horcrux. This we know. Does this make it any less a soul per se? It seems to be a better moral lesson if the soul is just as much a soul in its nature, while being mutilated and made deformed, rather than becoming something or somewhat OTHER than it originally was. Again, this may be hair-splitting. It does seem that LV changes over to something more snake-looking than human (at least in the face), and that DD says that his soul is damaged while his mind and powers remain intact. That could mean his soul is no longer soul-ish, or at least not as soul-ish as it was. And yet, if it is not, that seems to make a mockery of calling him "evil". For him to be "evil" means he is still a human soul, and a human soul that is accountable for that soul's actions. So I'm not inclined to think his soul, either the bits still in him or the ones he's torn off, get to be "off the moral hook" so to speak in that they are no longer the soul that is accountable for its actions and self-mutilation. If LV is evil, his soul bits are still what they were before he mutilated himself. Otherwise he's not more morally responsible for his actions than are the lethifolds that float around consuming people in their sleep (I finally read FB this weekend while I had no internet access, lol!).

The action of making Nagini a horocrux would have had to have been out of desperation to complete his magic goal of the number seven. Nagini is living, thus subject to mortality. Nagini as living, also has a finite lifespan. I read online that a Burmese Python can live 20+ years, which is not saying much for Voldemort's horocrux.

Is Nagini a magical snake with an extended lifespan?

Putting a piece of soul into an animal would be different than putting it into a human though wouldn't it? Humans have a higher level of intellingence than let's say a snake. Animals act more on instinct and human have a choice and are able to chose what to do. My pet dog is loyal and I'm sure if she had a piece of me in her she would be even more so. What I am trying to say that it would be hard to make a comparison between Nagini and Harry being Horcruxes because Harry can chose. We have seen Harry fight and struggle with his piece of Voldemort's soul throughout the series. Harry's choices are the key to supressing his bit of Voldemort's soul. ( Hope you guys understand what I an trying to say).

Here is my theory on souls radically changing forms. Let's look at the second law of thermdynamics (I know this sounds wierd already). This law states that when energy is changed from one form to another it will always have less useable energy than it started with. Using the soul as the energy source and the act of splitting the soul and transferring it into an object as the concept of changing forms then the soul would become less active or even dormant especially when there is another intact soul present that is overshadowing it. I hope y'all get want I am trying to say, I'm feel like I am talking gibberish, must be the pressure of exams.

Hmm I like it. I like it alot. I think this may be another piece I might use in my argument for the dormancy of a soul in the horcrux. The soul is Harry, if not dormant, would be so far removed from energy that it would be basically dormant, atleast enough to go unnoticed in Harry's body. I believe that the soul would have to be dormant after such an energy release because it would need to survive the extreme conditions of love within him.

~Albus

Loony, I like the thermodynamics analogy, but again that all hinges on the legitimacy of analogies between physical things (that physical laws apply to) and souls (which physical laws may not apply to). Physical laws barely apply strictly to the physical world in the wizarding world, so its even harder to use them as analogies for the non-physical in either world.

Albus, that would still leave you on the hook, lol!

Yeah it is very hard to relate our worldly explanations for the things around us to the magical world of Harry Potter. Yet through adding our own flair, influenced by the magic of JKR's writing herself, I believe we can use our base knowledge of the physical explanation for things, and apply them to this mysterious, uncharted world of Magic. If we dont, then what do we have to work with? The ambiguous and deceptive words of JKR... and that is scary.

~Albus

My question is why is it necessary for the soul to be dormant if Harry is a horcrux? Does it absolutely negate the possibility? Absolutely not.

I understand that people hold the argument that Voldemort couldn't stand to be inside Harry and therefore an active piece of his soul would also be unable to be inside Harry.

Let's look at some evidence that possibly could explain an active piece of Voldemort's soul inside Harry.

-1. Harry, as stated by the sorting hat, holds several traits of the Slytherin house.

-2. Harry feels pain in his scar when Voldemort is near.

-3. Harry was able to perform occlumency on Voldemort (and vise versa over large distances) which is impossible for anyone else.

-4. Harry felt as if he was Nagini in all of his visions. He even felt emotions that Voldemort was feeling (happiness, anger, etc.)

-5. Harry felt urges to kill Dumbledore, to attack him, as if he was the snake once again and it was out of his control.

-6. Dumbledore speaks of great control that Voldemort has over Nagini (another purported horcrux)

-7. Dumbledore limits his contact with Harry for nearly an entire year, concerned about Harry's connection with Voldemort and what his presence might do to that connection.

All of these things, could possibly reflect a very active piece of soul. We should note that we cannot say for certain that Voldemort felt terrible pain while inside of Harry. It is Dumbledore's opinion (although he tends to be right, JKR makes us very aware through Dumbledore himself that he is capable of mistakes). There is a theory, that Voldemort left Harry so suddenly because it was at that point, perhaps as Harry was feeling strong emotion, that the presence of a piece of his soul became apparent to Voldemort. Remember that he was trying to taunt Dumbledore into killing Harry at that point. When he realized that a piece of his soul was also at risk, he would have understood that it was a dangerous thing that he was doing. From that point forward, Voldemort makes no more attempts on Harry's life. He even gives orders to leave the boy alone. Consider that for the entire series, Voldemort has been trying to kill Harry. After that night, he stops. By getting his death eaters into the castle, he has a golden opportunity to do exactly that. Why does he completely ignore Harry. The Death Eaters are clearly not looking for Harry, they are looking for Dumbledore. Draco isn't under orders to kill Harry. He is after Dumbledore. What changed? If someone could please explain that to me, I would be interested. Voldemort knows the prophesy. He knows that Dumbledore cannot kill him. It doesn't fit with the prophesy. Why does he change targets?

I personally believe that there is a big difference between the piece of soul and the full possession of Voldemort. I think that the fact that Harry does feel pain when Voldemort is near shows a conflict within the soul. The degree of conflict is simply not as great as that of a full possession of Voldemort in Harry.

I also believe that it is possible that the protection that Lilly provided may have been part of the reason that the soul piece entered Harry. It knew that the powers that the soul piece provided would be beneficial to Harry. Clearly something was allowed through that defense that night. We know this because Harry now has a scar and powers of Voldemort. Why wouldn't it makes sense that the source of those powers are a piece of Voldemort himself?
The prophecy states that Voldemort will mark him as an equal. A good way to do that is to put a piece of himself in Harry (unintentionally of course). The fact that Voldemort was unaware of that portion of the prophecy further explains how he was unaware of the horcrux in Harry. This is a long post touching on a lot of things. I hope I kept it somewhat coherent.

All of these points that you made make complete sense, vulturemort and they are reasons that I've been fighting with myself. But then I always take into consideration the fact that why would Voldomort be trying to kill Harry if he was a horcrux? It makes no sense! I can't wait until the book comes out and we'll finally figure out which is fact and which is fiction.

If, in accord with what Vulturemort has outlined above, DD knew that Harry was at the very least powerfully connected to LV, and maybe even suspected that Harry was a horcrux, that could explain his strange behavior at the hearing at the beginning of OOTP. He defends Harry as if Harry is a mere posit in the law--completely impersonal, and without any conversation even after the hearing. Now, this is good legal strategy. But it may also be because the process of defending Harry reminds DD of something he did a long time ago such that Harry wound up being a horcrux.

What might Harry's hearing remind DD about? That he himself may have been the reason Tom Riddle was left at the orphanage--and that has led to Riddle's obsession with his heritage and his genocidal sociopathy. He is, perhaps, the reason no one intervened in Riddle's early life, having perhaps convinced the underage magic committee to leave him in the orphanage for better observation. Riddle was doing magic even as a child, and doing so with INTENTION and purpose and CONTROL. To observe this, he may have been intentionally isolated from the magical community at DD's recommendation (his isolation among muggles would keep his controlled magic from being confused with that of mature wizards, and hence more observable). He thus developed into the sociopath we know.

Harry's underage magic hearing may remind DD of a disturbing history. He is once again lending his efforts to the preservation of LV in Harry, just as he lent his efforts to the creation of LV back when. And his own conflicted motives at this point were things, he does admit at the end of OOTP, LV was able to exploit that year.

This is just an hypothesis.

Dumbledore's behavior was not limited to the trial only. If you recall, he avoided Harry for nearly the entire year. This was part of the reason that Harry was so grumpy throughout the entire 5th book. Sorry if this is a short post, but there isn't much more to say about this.

Since the begining of the 4th book I think DD had a strong suspecion of the connection between the LV and Harry. In his office at the end of book , DD explains to Harry, he did not want LV to know how much he cared for Harry. By isolating Harry he felt that he was protecting him. That is also why he had Snape teaching him occlamacy so that Harry would be able to shut LV out of his mind. What makes me wonder is if Harry is a Horocrux, would occlumacy actual work. If it were to be part of LV soul that connects them would that not allow LV an unlockable backdoor into Harry's mind and thought and visa versa.

Yes, DD's behavior is not limited to the trial, I was just saying that it is a particular impetus to his withdrawal from Harry early in the summer. In fact, it may shed light on another motive of leaving Harry alone--if Harry feels isolated, it may actually make LV think he is all the more like him. Harry's abandonment would agitate LV via their connection, since it is a familiar feeling.

Interesting, the only time DD communicates to Harry is via Phineus Nigellus, the headmaster most likely to have been like LV.

My gut is telling me lately that even if Harry is a horcrux, he may not have to die. That he will be able to live, finally, when LV no longer survives (i.e. exists in virtue of his horcruxes...It may be that LV was only able to regenerate BECAUSE he had horcruxes, and is not fully alive right now. LV may already in some sense be dead, but needs to be finished off).

Does anyone know, relative to this issue of Harry's potential demise, when the DD forward to FB and QA was supposed to have been written? And when Harry is supposed to have coughed up his copy of FB for reproduction?

No - harry is not a horcrux, if he has the imprint of a soul in him, why would Voldemort want to kill him??

I wish I would have thought of that. Why hasn't anyone mentioned it before? Frankee Baby, please read the first page of this thread. It will address your question about why Voldemort would try to kill Harry.

I would also like to take note that the poll is beginning to move in the yes, maybe direction (even with the people who simply come in to say that Harry cannot be a horcrux because Voldemort was trying to kill him)

I am not sold on Harry being a horocrux. The arguments for are very compelling.

The idea hsd come to me, what was the gleam in DDs eye. Is it possible that if Harry was a horocrux, that the gleam is that LV already used him to restore himself the night he came back in the graveyard. By using Harry's blood he used that piece of soul.

DD has more knowledge of the horocrux then he has shared, also he has kept an eye on LV since the day he invited him to Hogwarts. He has suspected the use of horocruxes and until he got Slughorns memory he did not know how many would be out there. If he suspected all along and feared that Harry was one, then would that gleam in his eye mean that with LV rebirth he no longer suspects Harry.

We are still in the dark on how one creates the horocrux aside from having to murder, we also do not have any knowledge of how to use the horocrux, it allowsthe creater of one to stay anchoored to the earth but how would it be used to regenerate the body or be placed back in the body.

flammana, I used to think the horcruxes were maybe primarily for the purposes of regenerating oneself. Granted, they need not be used for such, but in keeping someone anchored to the world they certainly suggest themselves as means for that "unkilled" bit of the original to come back to life.

If, however, Harry's horcrux was used in the regeneration, was that somehow hidden in the spell Wormtail was using?


Renewing and reviving, those are things that living things can do for one another in different ways. But resurrection--that's different. And the word itself is loaded. That's bringing someone back from the dead. I wonder what difference the words I've put in italics make--the first two are neutral, the last involves FORCE. FORCE yields RESURRECTION. Hmmm...

Does the spell go this way because the horcrux in the enemy is being used for the resurrection? This would imply that LV knew already that Harry was a horcrux to be thus used.

Or it could mean that LV just had a separate spell that would resurrect him just by using his enemy's blood, but unwittingly de-horcruxed Harry in spilling the protected blood of Harry.

Or maybe it means that by using the protected blood, he was resurrecting himself in a particularly vulnerable form?

We know DD had some other reason (that we dont know yet) for not killing LV in the MoM scene--the reason he gave LV was not the real one. DD did know about horcruxes in general at that point, and so he knew he could not kill LV yet. All he didnt know was how many. Did he know Harry still/ever was one? JKR links DD not killing LV in MoM to the words of the prophecy. The part Snape did not hear includes the words, "either must die at the hands of the other" and "he will have powers that the Dark Lord knows not".

Did Harrys blood, including the protection, commingled with the powers LV gave him and maybe under the influence of the horcrux within, somehow amount to a weapon against himself that LV took in with Harry's blood?

PUMPKINJUICE, VULTUREMORT you two are absolutely brilliant. I will admit, I voted "No" on the poll, but am now totally sold. But I do have a question.

In HBP Dumbledore speculates to Harry about the horcruxes that Voldemort has made and how many there were and what they could be. He also mentions that Voldemort went to Lily and James house to perform his last murder (in the sense of casting the spell for his horcrux). Now was this the plan before or after he heard the prophecy, or the part that was relayed to him? What I'm saying is, if Dumbledore is correct in his assumptions, after he heard the prophecy, did Voldemort decide to use the death of Harry Potter to make his last horcrux, and so in failing to kill the child, unknowingly make Harry the horcux? Is that what the two of you are saying?

I suppose it would be a great help if we knew what prompted a 17 year old Tom Riddle to ask Professor Slughorn what horcruxes were in the first place. How had he discovered what they were. Of course we knew that 17 year old Tom had some thoughts as to what a horcrux was otherwise why would he ask? Also, how did Slughorn come to know what they were and why did he tell him. Also, is that the reason why Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters would be wanting him? But that's off topic. Any answers to my question in the previous paragraph?

Well, yes but the thinking on this really traces back to AlbusDumbledore's posts about the accidental-horcrux-making that made Harry a horcrux. Harry was inadvertently made a horcrux; LV only intended to kill him, then make some object a horcrux. See Albus's post at the head of the thread.

Since Albus's original theory, some of us have embellished. I've wondered if somehow baby Harry might have actively sucked in a free-floating piece of soul (released in the explosive force of LV's destruction, on Albus's theory). This would make him (tho a baby) an agent in his own destiny. Then we started wondering about what object the Potters might have had/stolen that LV wanted (which may have been why they defied/escaped him three times) and what happened to it when LV was killed. I thought maybe they had had a Gryffendor object.



On some thread I've speculated that Slughorn not only told Tom some general things about horcruxes, but how to make them. Otherwise the depths of his guilt dont make a whole lot of sense. My thought was that Tom altered his memory that night, leaving in only enough to implicate and frighten Slughorn (i.e. so he could be blackmailed), but not enough so that Tom would be known to be making horcruxes for certain. I think he knew Slughorn would know, if anyone at Hogwarts at the time would know about horcruxes, and might have information he could extract, which i think he did. Tom could have overheard people muttering about Slughorn's interest in dark things--he had good information, as Slughorn himself points out. As to Tom's original knowledge of them, I suppose they are written of in books that are available in Knockturn alley. Only one Hogwarts book mentions them, and that alone might have sent him looking. But who knows what else Tom may have found in that castle. The RoR coughs up all kinds of DADA books because the DA 'needed' them. Maybe books on horcruxes could appear?

Hmm...I wonder if we have stumbled onto a clue about the books at Snape's house.....

But anyhow, I do think this connection with the actuality of the horcruxes is the reason Slughorn was in hiding. And I think DD knew it, and decided to leverage Slughorn's fear into a stint at safe Hogwarts by dangling Harry, the victim of Slughorn's mistake, in front of him.

Im beginning to fall for that theory about Slughorn, Pumpkinjuice. I do not think that he altered the memory that he ended up giving Harry, but I believe there may be another memory to prove that he indeed taught Tom Riddle how to create a Horcrux.

The actions of Horace Slughorn are very, very peculiar. What have we ever heard of him? If he was such an influential person, why have we never heard atleast a mention of him before.. and if we have.. by all means point me in the right direction. You see, I believe Slughorn may have made too much a display of himself after the fall of Voldemort...too much that when word reached him that the Dark Lord may still be alive.. he probably drifted into the background. When Voldemort rises again in GoF, I wonder what Slughorn felt like...I wouldnt be surprised to ever find out he was the victim of a botched suicide attempt. He must have been scared beyond all measure when the Dark Lord ressurected himself, for he, Horace Slughorn, had aided the continued existance of the most evil wizard of all time. No matter what his reasonings were, the topic of the Horcrux.. let alone Horcrux creation.. was frowned upon and in this circumstance would most likely meet many hostile threats. That is the reason I, and seemingly Pumpkinjuice, think that Horace Slughorn is the catalyst to all this Horcrux business.

~Albus

woohoo, welcome aboard the Slughorn express, Albus!

Actually, I'm not happy about what appears to be his centrality to all this, as I really don't like his character. He's kind of a hyper-competent Gilderoy Lockhart (who seems, interestingly, to be getting his memory back....).

I do think that once LV rose at the end of GoF (so two years ago) he started his "in hiding" shtick, going from muggle house to muggle house, faking his death every time the DE came calling (he was on his "last jar" of dragon blood). DD appears to at least have gotten word to him at some point, may even have confronted him for the original (altered) memory (DD says he "coerced" that memory from Slughorn), tho that could have happened after he got to Hogwarts. He has clearly heard from DD recently, tho, given the exchange at the beginning of HBP. Why? Because DD has been on the horcrux hunt and needed to know when it started and Slughorn was Tom's head of house.

My hypothesis is that DD may have informants in the dragon blood market, since he is the expert on its uses (tho dragon parts are available enough for people to make clothing and Hagrid to buy a steak for his eye injury); but DD must have many many ways of tracking people, including the order members who are otherwise unoccupied, like Lupin.

Slughorn's demeanor in the scene in McGonagall's office needs to be unpacked. I think it means something that will tell us a bit about his place in this.

Since he knows about horcruxes, and Harry (with Ron and Hermoine) are the only other official knowers of this, Harry will doubtless seek him out for more info. He may be able to tell Harry some things that will help him determine what happens if living things become horcruxes (bc of what DD said about Nagini) and that might clue Harry in about his own status.

The other variable with access to such information is Snape--not about horcruxes necessarily but about LV and whether he recognized himself in Harry when he tried to possess him in MoM. So Snape's status in DH will be important in possibly establishing this bit of info.

I was wondering if the books at Snape's house were the kinds of books in which this information might be found--this stuff has to be written down somewhere.

Hmm I wonder what all this means for Harry. Slughorn seemed mightyeffected by Harry's taunts about his dead mother. I wonder if Slughorn played a side role in her death. If Slughorn was the one who taught Tom about the Horcruxes, would he still be called upon for questioning in the future? Or would that reveal that he actually made them? I do not think that Slughorn was at Godric's Hollow.. but perhaps the news of the making of Horcruxes by LV was made aware to him last night. Could Slughorn have known that LV was about to make his last Horcrux from the death of Harry, and Slughorn fearing his own life and that of his former students, could he have plead for Lily, deeming Harry dead for sure? Is that why Lord Voldemort gave her so many chances to live?

~Albus

Yes, his affect in regard to Lily is profound. The level of his guilt made me think he was at Godric's Hollow, witness (cloaked, hidden somewhere perhaps) to what happened. What makes you think he was not there?
James' screaming out to Lily, "Its him, take Harry and run" has always sounded like coded speech to me. Run? Run where? From LV? It seems it could have been a warning to someone else to do something else (hence my house-elf theory).
Slughorn could have disapparated to DD to inform him of what was happening, either during or after the attack. Slughorn could have been made to watch the whole thing, having been found out by LV. The idea of his being there stemmed from his incessant references to keeping up with former students. Lily having been his favorite, I cannot imagine he didn't try to keep up with her. Lily may even have been tasked by DD with learning about Tom's past from Slughorn, or Lily may have been hiding Slughorn from LV.
It's interesting that Slughorn retired the year James and Lily died.
It has struck me that the house being wrecked may have been Slughorn's first staging of a wrecked house scene, resting Harry atop the remains safely, out of guilt.

Slughorn is definitely a candidate for being the reason Lily was given opportunities to not die that night. LV calling her a "foolish girl" may reference the fact that Slughorn has pleaded for his "favorite student".

I think that harry is a horcrux by the following points:

1.voldermort can enter harry's mind whenever he wants
2.harry was given the pheonix feather wand by olliver which is same as vodermortl
3.sorting hat was confused to sort harry in gryffindor or slytherin
4.harry can speak and understand parseltoungue
5.harry has a scar on his forehead which may be the mark of a horcrux

I think voldermort accidently created harry as a horcrux by killing james and lilly .His intentions was to kill harry and create his seventh horcrux.harry did not died but instead became a horcrux

Welcome aboard EvilLupin, Welcome aboard!

Your points are solid enough that they can be seen as evidence to the transmission of a piece of Voldemort's soul into his body.



I don't know really, he just isnt my prime candidate for being under the cloak, if anyone was under there at all. I believe he may have visited that night, but I do not think he was there during the killing, nor do I believe he staged the destruction of the house. The destruction of the house has always been something I accredited to the demise of Voldemort.. and this is crucial to my view on the series; the explosive release of magic.

~Albus

There has to be more to Slug then we know. He has a history with DD that has not been revealed that goes back to the fall of Grindewald. We also have the scene where DD and Slug work as a team put the house back together.

I thought that Slughorn was hiding from the DE's because until HBP, if we take the view the LV has not confided with any of his DE about the horocrux, that Slug was the only living wizard with knowledge of Tom's desire to create horocruxes.

I also take that the modified memory he gave DD was his attempt to hide this information, not just from DD but also from anyone else with the ability and desire to look. So not only is he a highly talented Potions Master, but like Malfoy, has many connections with in the wizarding world that would have been and asset to LV but he was also the one with the knowledge. Could this have been a card Slug played with LV, Slug would have become an informant of even become a DE in return for sparing Lily's life.

Also, Slug allready gave up both the post of Potions and Head of Slytherine when he retired. Which was before the Prophecy was given, so was Snape interviewing for both positions that night at the Hogshead?

So it would seem that Slughorn has done that house manuever before. Dumbledore didnt seem the slightest surprised at the state of the home, and he even went as far as poking the recliner. There is some history there, indeed.



Precisely, with the Return of Lord Voldemort, his enemies will be searching far and wide to find out how he survived Godric's Hollow, and how he continues to live. Slughorn would be a invaluable tool to the enemies of the Dark Lord. Yet, I dont think Voldemort was looking for him, the main reason being that Slughorn is still alive and free. I doubt that Slughorn could hide from Voldemort if Voldemort really wanted him.



No, Slughorn likes to have connections, but would not become an informant for someone... it goes against his personality, and I do not believe he would have been a Death Eater.



Hmm I cant find any evidence at the moment to suggest when he retired.

~Albus

The Lexicon lists his retirement as after the 1980-81 school year, and I've been going with that tho I cannot remember where in the books that is established--I remember hearing it but not where in HBP. So he retires, conveniently, just months before the Potters are killed. Just as LV is on his way to his magically seventh horcrux, I would surmise. Something maybe spooked him about that process? Something about the accomplishment of the seven, presuming LV kept him in the loop for leverage?

OMG--just as the Unbreakable Vow requires another party to effect the charm, could the Horcrux spell require another party to make the charm between soul-owner and soul-receptacle? (I wonder if that has anything to do with how LV regenerates himself, using Wormtail, in GoF).
If it does, was Slughorn making these things with LV?

Could he no longer countenance being at Hogwarts once the job was about to be complete, for some reason? Some reason that explains his real guilt? Yes, this explains Lily getting the chance to live--mercy from the Lord, for his lacky Slughorn. Slughorn and Wormtail have names that parallel one another--bug/bodypart, bug/bodypart.

Succinct analogy!

That would fit perfectly into speculation that someone, Slughorn, was an active participant in his creation of Horocruxes.

Not to mention the PM I just sent you wondering what in the world Slughorn wanted acromantula venom for ... and the uses of it. Antidote? Protection? Magical shield? Anti dying potion?

Hmmm. Dumbledore insists that Voldemort likes to work alone, thus having no reliance upon another. What if he had no choice but to rely on another to make his horocruxes? Slughorn is a drinker...what if Regulus tossed back a few with him and he spilled his guts during a binge and doesn't remember?

If another person is required, was Slughorn with Voldemort when the Potters were attacked? Or could he have been awaiting Voldemort's return, which never came?

Hmm I found the body part analogy to be very compelling when I was first exposed to it, and it still is compelling.

As for the acromantula venom.. I thought he said you can get alot of money for it in the wizarding black market. Something like multiple gallons a pint, perhaps? I dont remember. But that is why he wanted it I believe.

I just dont see Slughorn as entering the servitude of Lord Voldemort as a Death Eater.. I can see him being forced to do something to spare his life, but never willingingly serving the Dark Lord.

But then again, if he is so important, Voldemort would be hotter on his heels.

~Albus

I agree, but in this he is like the snivelling, self-preserving Pettigrew, only more established in life. Pettigrew seems no real ideologue, but he does much in service of LV out of fear. Maybe Slughorn did too?

I'm wondering , having just read the "Can you split your soul into 7 parts" thread, if it is possible that LV was destroyed by the rebounding curse because you CANNOT have a seven part soul. Did Slughorn retire because he knew what was coming for LV? that he would be safe to enjoy his leisure, and then got nervous when LV was back in body? (this came up on another thread, or in conversation, that Slughorn was enjoying his early retirement but then wound up in hiding when LV was back. Which means he believed he was back. Which means he had good info to that effect (DD) ).

Did Slughorn suspect that 7 parts would violate some deeper magical principle of love? (see that other thread for the original idea of this...). If so, did DD also know this? He thinks LV wanted six horcruxes and would not stop at five. LV may never have realized what happened, that may be what DD knows and he doesn't. LV thinks it was Lily's magical sacrifice that annihilated him by protecting Harry--but can we trust his judgment about this? He does not understand love, so why should we take his word for what must have happened?

Does DD ever really say that Lily's sacrifice is definitely what made the curse rebound? He may know it protected Harry without ever asserting it killed LV bodily. Can any one give a quick answer on this?

This would not do in the explosive magic idea, in fact it may support it by underlining why the AK was so explosively powerful--it was a soul doing itself in, breaking a cosmic law in the commission of another murder for the sake of a soul-splitting. LV's intentions behind the AK may have modified the quality of the AK, since we know you "have to mean it". Maybe you can mean several different things by it/with it.

Well, both Voldemort and Dumbledore say that the Charm cast by Lily's death is the event that rebounded the curse. Voldemort says it in the Graveyard in GoF, saying that he admits to an oversight on his part, that his own curse was deflected back upon him. Dumbledore then backs that claim up in OotP when he talks to Harry.

As for the seven part soul.. I do think one is able to make one. Dumbledore seems to think you can, so thats good enough for me.

~Albus

Well, my point was that we maybe shouldnt take LV's word for it in the graveyard--what does he know about that magic of love? Nothing. And while DD says Lily's love protected Harry, does he technically say that that is why the curse rebounded? Or, even if he did, it need not be the ONLY reason it rebounded.

And it is completely consistent to say that DD thought LV would make a 7 part soul, and to recognize that doing so would be disastrous. It could be that DD realizes that the regenerated LV is not counting as a soul anymore. So he has six horcruxes, but that's it. What's left is a functional, soulless being, made out of rage (his spell) and a violation of all that is meaningful. Harry may not have to do the act; maybe this is why DD is letting the prophecy play out--it will make LV vulnerable without entailing Harry doing an unforgivable curse.

One thing that supports this is something JKR said--that DD's guesses are never far from the mark, and that Harry knows--or thinks he knows--what he must do now, which is detroy the horcruxes and then go after LV. But maybe all he has to do is destroy the horcruxes? This would change the algebra of the end-game.

And Harry sacrificing himself as the last horcrux may institute some other magical miracle by which he could survive. But that is mostly wishful thinking at this point.

Hmm I dont think its only wishful thinking. Self-sacrifice has traditionally held alot of redemptive qualities. JKR may view Harry's giving of his own life as worthy of the greatest magic. The only problem with this is defining why Harry's sacrifice would be different than all of the other self-sacrifices in the wizarding world. Read my Official DH theories thread pinned at the top of this forum.. I explain alot in my first post.

~Albus

1. If Harry is a Horocrux and has to sacrifice himself -
2. If Harry is not a Horocrux and has to sacrifice himself -
3. If Snape turns out to be a two-timing, lying, cheating, scheming, black-hearted, good-for-nothing traitor-

-OR- Harry dies because someone postulated that he is a horocrux so no-one can write an eighth book about him -

I am going to burn all my books in a campfire.

ermm huh? Im sure JKR will pull of the theory that Harry is a Horcrux with purpose and finesse... its JKR, c'mon. I think, no matter the end, that we will all love the 7th book. There may be parts we dont like, but I feel that we will appreciate what she has given us and we will be talking about the seventh book for quite sometime.

And.. also.. Harry is a Horcrux.

~Albus

Sorry, venting seemed imperative at that moment.

...and it all boils down to do we trust Albus Dumbledore or not? If not, all is lost. I am all for the trust factor.

(please don't flay me I know it is a short post)