Hi, guys. With the advent of the new poll and with over 700 posts, it is time to give you a shiny new thread! The old thread can be found here, if you want to brush up on what's been going on.

hp6 has very kindly written a summary of the arguments presented thus far in previous threads and I would respectfully request that EVERYONE, particularly newcomers, take the time to read this before replying because otherwise, you run the risk of your post being ignored because you're just re-hashing things that have been said before. No one wants to be ignored, and I don't think it's asking too much to just read this rather than four previous threads

Happy debating!!

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Theory For Harry being a Horcrux 1

When Voldemort turned on Harry after murdering Lily, the Avada Kedevra that he sent to Harry rebounded on himself, destroying his body. This cataclysmic event of the Destruction of Lord Voldemort’s Body released magic, the essence of life force, and power into the air in an explosion. This expulsion of energy leveled the house but left Harry seemingly unharmed. My main premise of my theory is that in times of extreme stress the wizard will unintentionally produce a spell that will outwardly portray their emotions... just like we saw in PoA with Harry and Aunt Marge.... with this in mind I believe that Voldemort’s deepest desire, his most powerful obsession, his driving force ....was his passion to find a way for him to be Immortal. Considering he was going to consummate the creation of his Horcruxes, it is very likely that was in the foremost of his mind. Ok with this said I believe that when the release of magic from his body occurred it portrayed his need for self-preservation, his need for immortality, but focusing the magic to the creation of a horcrux. This would explain the unknown events of that night, as well as why Voldemort was trying to kill Harry in the first 5 books.. he didn't know he was Horcrux...



Theory For Harry Being A Horcrux 2


Voldemort hears the prophecy and knows he must kill Harry (or Neville) but chooses Harry. He shows up at Godric’s Hollow intending to make his 7th horcrux, his plan is to put his soul in Harry’s dead body. He kills James and Lily. He sets up his horcrux, by performing the spell, intentionally aiming for Harry, because with Harry’s murder the soul will be split and enter Harry’s dead body. He sends the Avada Kedevra at Harry, but it rebounds off of Lilly’s love protection, and kills Voldemort instead. Voldemort’s horcruxes act like an anchor, and keep his soul in this world, instead of allowing it to enter the after life. Voldemort's death is the murder that lets the split soul free. The soul reaches its intended target (Harry), only Harry isn’t dead. The Love Protection allows the soul to enter Harry because the soul is dormant and poses no threat to Harry. In books 1-4 Voldemort is trying to kill Harry, not knowing he is a horcrux. But in Ootp Voldemort possesses Harry at the ministry, and finds another piece of his soul is in Harry. In Half Blood Prince Voldemort is trying to figure out how to kill Harry without destroying the horcrux, so he goes after Dumbledore instead of Harry.



Theory For Harry Being a Horcrux 3

I really do think Harry is a horcrux. What else could produce such strong likenesses and the ability to see into each others minds as Harry and Voldemort do? The magical bond and bridge between them has been mentioned and talked about between Harry and Dumbledore, but it has never been named! What other sort of magic could cause this? A horcrux is indeed putting part of yourself into something else. Voldemort had given Harry some of his powers (and maybe more) that night when he came to kill Harry, and as in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets at the end, Harry confirms with Dumbledore, "So, Voldemort transferred a bit of himself into me?" Dumbledore replies by saying yes, and saying that it was not intentional, he was sure. Now, many say, how could such a powerful wizard like Voldemort do something like that unintentionally? Well, even Dumbledore says he thinks Voldemort did it unintentionally. Why had Voldemort become so weak that night after he tried to kill Harry? It's because he already had most of his horcruxes made, and we know that horcruxes are a horrible, soul-splitting thing. Voldemort had possibly already made all of the horcruxes he intended to make, knowing that if he did more, it could make him feeble. Know one knows why Voldemort lost his powers that night, and why Harry and Voldemort have a sort of magical bond between each other, and I think that a horcrux explains that all. But one more thing caught my eye as I re-read the Order of the Phoenix for the third time: A tear streaked down Dumbledore's face when he was finally telling Harry about the prophecy. I strongly think this is because Dumbledore is the sole person who knows that Harry is a horcrux, and thus knowing that he will soon have to devastatingly tell Harry he is a horcrux, bringing Harry to the terrible reality that he will have to destroy himself after destroying the rest of the horcruxes (including Voldemort himself) if Harry is determined to finish off Lord Voldemort. J.K. Rowling does however have a knack for surprising her readers, and she very well may introduce a new way of extracting a horcrux out of a human without killing that human, but this may indeed be a bit of a big thing to suddenly introduce in the very last book of the series.

Theory for Harry being a Horcrux 4
To fully understand this theory you should first read the theory on what Long Live the Weasle King! believes a soul to be in the world JK Rowling has created. It may be found HERE.

We know Voldemort planned to create a Horcrux with the death of Harry. The author tells us so through her character Dumbledore, and she tells us to accept this character's theories as fact through her character Lupin. I believe a Horcrux must be created by preparing an object to accept the "soul-energy" one is planning on transferring to it. Inanimate objects do not have souls, so it seems reasonable to me that one must prepare the object through various magical means beforehand in order for it to hold this "energy". Part of the reason I believe this is because Slughorn says the creation of a Horcrux is complicated. If it were as simple as killing someone then waving your wand and saying a word (the extent of most spells) then it is not exactly complicated.

Now, living creatures are already capable of holding soul energy because they have souls of their own. They have "lifeforce" which can be harnessed and used by various creatures in the HP universe, viz. Papermort and Dementors and such. This would help to explain why Voldemort would use Nagini in the first place, because he was in a vastly weakened state, not to mention a hurry, so he was not able to prepare an object to accept his "bit of self". Living objects, however, make imperfect vessels for laundry reasons. Namely, they have a soul and consciousness of their own which may lead them to act contrary to your wishes unless you are able to dominate them, which V attempts to do. Also, they tend to grow old, die, and decompose. I doubt dust retains its horcrux abilities.

Now, keep all that in mind as we examine the topic at hand. Knowing that Voldemort was planning on creating his final horcrux that night with the most significant murder of all, that of the one person with the power to defeat him, we can surmise that he had some object prepared and on his person to accept the "bit of himself" which would be torn from him when he committed this murder.

Things did not go according to plan, however.

When he attempted to kill Harry the Avada Kedavara curse "rebounded" (that is the exact word used on several occasions in the books) upon him, leaving Harry with but a cut on his forehead whilst completely destroying Voldemort's body. One of the main arguments against Harry being a Horcrux is that Voldemort then never had time to "cast the spell" which would create a Horcrux. However, that assumes the spell must be cast after the fact. We know that one is capable of choosing which murder creates the rip which allows a piece of the soul to be transfered to another object. It is my contention that Voldemort chose, at the time he cast the spell intended to murder Harry, to transfer the bit of soul which would be torn free from the main. When the spell rebounded it struck Voldemort, taking a human life, and causing a bit of soul to be torn free. It then traveled back along the magical conduit created by the spell connecting Harry's forehead to Voldemort's exploding body.

As Harry did not have an object capable of containing "soul-energy" it went to the only place left for it to reside. Harry himself.


Theory Against Harry being a Horcrux 1

Voldemort using the Avada Kedevra on Harry caused the love charm to react and blocked the curse (but did not deflect it, the curse never went near Harry so it wasn't deflected but was blocked). The curse having been blocked, does not know what to do, is unable to break through the love charm and has no direction to go (there was a barrier that kept the curse from even exiting the wand and kept it from going towards Harry). The curse needed to exit so it tried to go in the opposite direction of the barrier, towards Voldemort. Voldemort being immortal, cannot die and the horcruxes are at work preventing Voldemort from dieing. So now there is another barrier around Voldemort that prevents the curse from hitting him too. Now the poor Avada Kedevra being stuck between two barriers is so confused. The spell just plain goes nuts and it completely destroys Voldemort’s body. The destruction causes bits of Voldemort flying everywhere. It sends the soul away from the area, and the ability to speak parsletongue and the other abilities that Voldemort has/had went and hit everything around the room. Harry, also being in the room is hit by some of the powers and consumes it. The scar I believe was a dead piece of Voldemort’s clothing or something that was not destroyed and flew straight at Harry, hitting him in the head. The piece of debris on Harry's head was destroyed just by touching Harry but left a scar from the injury. Explaining how Harry got Voldemort’s powers, but not soul.

The connections with Voldemort. I believe that Harry received the talent of Legilimency that Voldemort had as well. Harry did not know how to use it and was using it unconsciously. Being then the two greatest Legilimens in the world would obviously allow long distance Legilimency but only with each other and no one else at those distances. I have some evidence that Harry could be a great Legilimens: In philosopher's stone, Voldemort tried tempting Harry to give him the stone and join him. But Harry saw through the lie and said "NEVER!" then Voldemort decided to kill Harry instead and that story goes on and on. But the fact that Harry saw through the lie. Voldemort had an excellent way of getting people to do what he wants. In the memory of Slughorn in the half-blood prince, Voldemort uses his excellent lying skills to get what he wants. So for Harry seeing through the lie means more then just being stubborn.

Explanation for the Soul Tearing 1

The soul becomes corrupt as more and more evil acts occur and that the tearing or removing of soul pieces is a process of getting rid of the clean/pure parts, making the original soul eventually completely evil.

Spiritual Touch Theory 1

This is based on the belief that there is spiritual touch and physical touch, so if Voldemort’s soul did enter Harry’s body the two souls would have touched and Harry would have known. This comes from the fact that when a ghost walks through a person they feel an unpleasant cold shiver.


Spiritual Touch Theory 2

The soul is kept in a separate world, so when Voldemort’s soul entered Harry’s body the two never had any contact, which explains why Harry does not know he is a horcrux.

Horcrux Possession Theory 1

All horcruxes have a mind of there own and they want to possess a living body. Ginny Weasley was being possessed by the horcrux in the diary. Albus Dumbledore’s hand was turned black because the horcrux in the ring attempted to take control of him. This makes Harry being a Horcrux impossible because the soul in him would attempt to possess him, and try to kill him like Tom Riddle tried to kill Ginny Weasley in the Chamber of Secrets.

Horcrux Possession Theory 2

The diary was a special horcrux and because the diary could communicate with the outside world it was able to possess Ginny. Other horcruxes can not possess people. In the Chamber Tom Riddle was trying to come back as himself and not possess Ginny, he was feeding off her life force, and that is why she was dying.

Horcrux Creation Theory 1

The spell is cast before you commit the murder, this gives your split soul the directions it needs to get into your predestinated horcrux. This also explains why ministry aurors who have murdered do not have split souls in random objects.

Horcrux Creation Theory 2

The spell is said after the murder is committed, the murder tears the soul, and the horcrux spell splits the soul and allows it to enter your desired object.

Horcrux Creation 3

This is a combination of theories 1 and 2. The horcrux spell can be said before the murder takes place, giving your soon to be split soul directions (like map quest) to you desired object, or you can perform the spell after the murder, splitting the soul and directing it to your object of choice.

Voldemort' Death Theories
These are links to threads that discuss the different possibilities of Voldemort's death.

The Phantom Death Theory
The Imprint Theory

**If you have been actively following this discussion and something needs to be added, deleted from these summaries, please PM me, and I will edit them in.

I don't think Harry is a horcrux. For one, as passerby mentioned in Theory 4, the house was blown to smithereens. This couldn't be a result of the Avada Kedavra curse, because in Ootp, the Ministry of Magic fountain was destroyed because it was hit once or several times with the curse . If Voldemort wanted to make Harry a horcrux after killing him, it wouldn't have been easy, because Harry being a baby, so tiny and fragile, would have been blown to bits : the turning Harry into a horcrux theory has a loophole . Also, even if a bit of Voldemort's soul was "poured" into Harry , that means that Harry would have had amazing casting ability in spells. Remember, not all powers are in speaking (Parseltongue), sleeping (visions Harry has), etc, but in spell casting ability, and Harry can't exactly be compared evenly to Hermione in classes, as Riddle did very well in school .

Im not understanding what you are saying here. The Avada Kedavra never touched Harry because of his mother's sacrifice. Also, a side note, the Avada Kedavra is only used for the murder, giving the necessary tear in the soul for the later process of Horcrux making. You must also remember, that the effects of the Avada Kedavra are different on non-living objects then on living things. With a living thing, it wipes all life from it, leaving no marks. But with an inanimate object, it destroys it. So the fact that Baby Harry was no "blown to bits" doesnt prove anything.



I also disagree with that. I believe some of the powers of Lord Voldemort were transferred to Harry in the botched accidental Horcrux making. I also think that Horcruxes, in nature, are dormant, and would not cause Harry to be better at spells like Tom Riddle. I do believe, however, that some traits were transferred during the link between them due to the fact that magic was released from the destruction of Voldemort's body. These exposed traits, like the ability to speak Parseltongue, were transferred along with the dormant Horcrux that night.

~Albus

I dont think harry is a horcrux, mainy due to theory 4 saying.

Now, keep all that in mind as we examine the topic at hand. Knowing that Voldemort was planning on creating his final horcrux that night with the most significant murder of all, that of the one person with the power to defeat him, we can surmise that he had some object prepared and on his person to accept the "bit of himself" which would be torn from him when he committed this murder.[quote]

I think he had the object with him, but when he was destroyed it was left behind either as a horcrux made form voldemorts death or not as a horcrux at all. I also think that when haryy goes to godrics hollow he will find the said item, either buried with his parents or somwhere else in the villlage.

Dumbledore also says voldemort was going to use harrys death to make the final horcrux, if he had killed harry why would he use harrys body as a horcrux, and not somthing of bigger imprtance to himself.

I'm tempted by the idea that LV had the object with him and that it was grabbed up by someone as things went wrong or shortly afterward. The problem with this is that the whole house was destroyed, we are told. The only thing left supposedly is Harry. So either Harry is that horcrux, or the horcrux object was pulverized with everything else.

It would be interesting if LV had a horcrux with him (one he had already made) or if somehow he had already begun enchanting some object with receiving or protecting spells, such that that accounts for part of the force of the magical blast.

What if there is a limit on the number of horcruxes you can have, which no one really knows because no one besides LV has tried it. What if LV was ripped from his body because he was in the process of horcruxing when the AK backfired, and having exceeded his limit of soul-parts, the consequence was his being turned into a soul that could achieve no more by way of a body than that weird fetal thing for which we have yet to have an explanation. Maybe he assumed that form because his last horcrux, unbeknownst to himself, was in the baby he was trying to kill to make the last one? Maybe it would make sense that his physical form would be somehow less than the last horcrux he made; the least human you can be would be fetal I suppose.

There is a third possibility I guess in that the item, having been charmed with protection spells and the like survived the blast that destroyed the rest of the house and because the rest of the house was completely destroyed nobody thought to look for anything of interest; Hagrid wouldn't have looked for it since his orders from Dumbledore were to retrieve Harry and take him to Dumbledore in Surrey so he was unlikely to hang around searching through the rubble looking for items of interest. Besides he was unlikely to know what to look for anyway, for a start not even Dumbledore really knew about the horcruxes back then; he may have suspected but he didn't know for sure until Harry's second year.



I doubt there's a given limit other than that which the person looking to create sets themselves. After all, there must have been plenty of dark witches/wizards before Voldemort and yet none of them ever created more than a single horcrux; surely this means something? If it's that bad to create a single horcrux then I doubt that there would be any need for further magical boundaries that limit the number of soul pieces a person can create; it would just be down to how evil they were and how willing they were to mutilate their own soul beyond human evil.



This isn't exactly true, while Hermione might pick up the techniques and ability to cast spells faster than Harry does it is evident that Harry is an incredibly talented wizard, he managed to do enough magic in his first two years to thwart Voldemort twice, learnt to cast a corpeal patronus in his thirs, won the Triwizard Tournament as well as escaping Voldemort and beating him to causing Priori Incantatum in his fourth, gained access to the department of mysteries aided in the capture of several Death Eaters and thwarted Voldemort once more in his plains to obtain the prophecy as well as secretly teaching others how to perform a lot of the magic he has learnt thus far to his fellow students, both older and younger in his fifth and helped Dumbledore through the cave on the hunt for a horcrux and fought Death Eaters in Hogwarts in his sixth year so while Hermione may have a natural ability for spell casting, Harry is more than capable of doing the same magic as Hermione and more often than not in much more stressful situations than Hermione has had to cast in so I think that Harry is at least equal to if not better than both Hermione and Tom Riddle.

There is some things I have discrepancies with here. First off, the house was not completely destroyed. In the book, Hagrid says "house was almost destroyed..." leaving the possibility for other artifacts to survive, even though I stand firmly that Harry was made into a Horcrux that night, unintentionally of course. We must remember that Voldemort's wand survived, and someone had to retrieve it, so if a wand could survive, I think something else could have as well.

On the second part of your paragraph, about Hagrid's orders. Hagrid had a full 24 hours nearly before having to be at Privet Drive. Where did he go? I speculate some Order of the Phoenix safe house in Wales because of the flight pattern he took to get to Surrey. So Hagrid would have had time, but the conflict there would have been endangering Harry any more than needed.



I had to select that quote in that manner, I apologize, but there were no periods to mark sentences, so I may be in the middle of one! Anyway, I disagree completely with your last statement. Harry may be better at the practical application of Magic in fighting, but he has so far not surmounted that of the Dark Lord. Each time he has escaped the Dark Lord on chance and luck, and bravery on his part.... not really magical prowess. The three most powerful wizards in the world, in my opinion, (in order) Dumbledore, Lord Voldemort and Severus Snape. We see from Harry's fight with Snape that he had no chance. Snape just overpowered him magically with ease. So to say he is better than Lord Voldemort is inaccurate.

~Albus

Albus, I chopped up your post to the things I wanted to respond to, as I havent taught myself how to do that multiple quote thingie....anyhow:

About the house: You're right, maybe we are overblowing the destruction of the house. Some things did survive the blast.

About Hagrid's 24 hours: I'm curious about your possible reaction to a point I posted on another thread, which is this: when Hagrid takes Harry to the Leaky Cauldron on their way to Diagon Alley in PS, the barkeep says to Harry, "Welcome back, Mr Potter, welcome back". That strikes me as odd--maybe Hagrid brought Harry to the LC for something that day after the blast. It's possible the comment just means 'welcome back to the wizarding world' but that's not how other people greet him there--they all are just blown away by meeting this famous person. So if he was at the LC eleven years earlier, for what? DD would surely have wanted to examine the child, would he not? He does not do so at Privet Drive, so my suspicion is that he does it there at LC, as well as whatever other charm sealing he may do upon detecting Harry's protection.

About Harry's magic: Harry lacks certain magical skills and so is not as great a wizard in that sense as someone like DD, LV or SS. But his bravery, I would assert, IS part of his magic. Harry has magical abilities that are not a function of training but of heart. So maybe it's apples and oranges, but in some senses he already IS greater than LV.

Hmmm, perhaps... Dumbledore would have needed to place his charms and spells on his as he said he did, but at the scene is Privet Drive we do not see that. I've read your other thread I believe, and maybe I even posted in it, but I still think that Hagrid must have ended up in Wales somehow to have crossed Bristol on his way to Little Whinging.

But it all comes back to one thing. Is Harry a Horcrux? What does it hold in store for him if he is? Was He a Horcrux and it has since been, unknowingly, removed? I would think that if Harry was a Horcrux, then something may be prevalent in the taking of his blood for Voldemort's resurrection. This may explain Dumbledore's Gleam of Triumph, and it may not. The thing I see against this "being a horcrux but isnt anymore" theory is one question... Why? Why would JKR not tell us anything until Book 7 that Harry was a Horcrux before, but isnt one now because of what happened 3 books earlier. It would be a pointless piece of information.

I am still convinced that the Avada Kedavra performed on Harry opened a split second link between him and the Dark Lord. In this time, as the curse rebounded, Voldemort's body was destroyed, ripping his soul from his body, as well as creating an unintentional Horcrux through the use of the uncontrolled release of Magic from his destruction. So along the path between him and Harry traveled a Horcrux, powers, and a mental link. Whether or not Harry needs to die to save the Wizarding world is still unknown to me though.

~Albus

You guys should really drop by the thread I started on this issue. Tom has, but Dr. Jude has yet to. I'd be interested to see what you guys thought of the current discussion. Perhaps you could liven it up a bit!



Exactly. If Harry was ever a horcrux, then he has to still be one now. It just doesn't make sense otherwise. No reason to include it. It doesn't provide us with anything profitable.

I don't know on the "gleam of triumpth"/taking blood issue. I still think that is something different. I don't know what, for the life of me, that could be, but I think it has to be something different than the horcrux thing. I don't see how taking Harry's blood would have done anything other than perhaps strengthening him like Nagini's venom does (assuming that Voldemort gained power from drinking Nagini's venom because she is a horcrux). I guess I must be missing the connection.

-Fish

The one thing that Harry having been a Horcrux but no longer being one would do narratively is pare down the search for the remaining ones, assuming that search will indeed be important in book 7. Having said that, I doubt that the gleam of triumph would allude to DD seeing that a horcrux had been eliminated, since he would indeed have corrected Harry's "admirable summary" of the list of horcruxes. So if Harry is de-horcruxed it is without DD's knowledge. And that does seem unreasonable, tho DD says nothing about the de-horcruxed locket he has with him all the way back from the cave, so....(assuming the absence of magical protections would have been obvious to him).

So I think it's reasonable to say its an either or--either he never was or he still is. I am still unclear why DD would either not know or choose not to correct Harry's tragically erroneous list. Or, the list is not erroneous, and the "something of Gryffendor's" is in fact Harry himself, and DD says nothing because DD often says nothing. That just doesnt fit with the urgency of the trip to the cave, tho....You'd think he'd be a little more anxious to share critical information knowing that danger lies ahead at the cave as well as in the castle (cuz I dont think for a minute that DD was unaware that DE's were on the premises--I cannot believe that him summoning Harry at that moment that the DE's had gotten through was an accident).

Something just occurred to me--some posit that DD has already been to the cave and takes Harry as some kind of tutorial. Playing with that idea, could RAB have left the note in between DD's visits? That would explain how RAB got through the enchantments that DD has to puzzle out, and would explain the fact that RAB says to LV, I wanted you to know it was I who discovered your secret and took the real horcrux, as in, I took it rather than DD--he watched/tracked DD to the cave. That could mean either that DD was there some time ago, or that RAB was "facing death" more recently than we surmised. Which would mean either that it's not Regulus or that Regulus was not dead when he supposedly got dead. Hmm...off topic, tho.....

For some reason, if Harry is a Horcrux, and Dumbledore knew.. I dont think he would tell him right then. Harry is just learning that he has to destroy these horcruxes in order to vanquish the Dark Lord and most likely would not react well to the knowledge that he himself is an obstacle that needs ridding of before Lord Voldemort can be gone. There are other ways that Harry can find out that he is a horcrux, besides Dumbledore telling him at that time. I have a feeling that the Sorting Hat will come into play in the Seventh Book, and it will tell Harry that it had seen the soul-piece (horcrux) within Harry all those years ago, and that is part of the reason he wanted to put him in Slytherin.



Yes, I had this theory long ago when some members contested the reason why Dumbledore would risk Harry's life in such a way if he knew the events that were about to unfold. I suggested the tutorial cave visit. A crash course on the kinds of magic Lord Voldemort is most likely to use when guarding his Horcruxes. We learn in the 5th book that practicing magic is important, and theories wont get you very far, which is why Dumbledore's Army is created... to practice spells. Dumbledore, naturally, would have realized that he could have talked to Harry for ages, and he still wouldnt have that hands on experience he would need... So Dumbledore gave it to him.



On a side note, you mentioned before on a different thread that you were not sure how to do the multiple quote thing yet.. well I do it this way.
1. highlight and copy the text you want to quote from the person's post.
2. paste into your post.
3. highlight the text again with the cursor
4. click on the button in the Post Toolbar that looks like a dialogue box. It will wrap the text in quote tags that look like this.



Which will then look like this:




But I am extremely off topic now!!

~Albus

That would be WAy to predictable if he was... JKR is a brilliant author... she'll like to keep us on our toes...

And what are your opinions on RAB? Regulus Black is jumping from the pages of the books at us, saying he is RAB, and everyone believes that. JK Rowling is creative, I will agree, and she can deliver such a circumstance with grace and fluidity, and suspense, which is what we need for Book 7.

~Albus

Well, that would only be true if Voldemort made Harry a horcrux on purpose, knew it, and didn't make another one. The problem with this is that Voldemort wouldn't have attempted to kill Harry (unless killing Harry won't destroy the horcrux...). The fact that Voldemort tried to kill Harry says to me that either Harry became a horcrux on accident or isn't one at all.

-Fish

Yeah, that would make sense. Then there must be something else in reference to the Gleam of Triumph.... and Dumbledore is not evil, just get that out of the way... erm.. perhaps the use of Harry's blood in his resurrection somehow weakens him when Harry turns 17 and the charm that protects him wears off.. who knows.

I posted this in the Time thread that Pumpkinjuice created and it sort of fits here:

Love is what binds them all, and Lord Voldemort has forsaken his hold on it (love) and thus should be cast out..... after all, he is unnatural. Im not familiar with Milton, though I would like to read Paradise Lost.... but with the last two words of your post... "Non Serviam"... Are you suggesting that there is a relationship, in positions/characteristics/role between God and Satan and Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort? It would match up indeed. But what would that mean, if JKR follows the general pattern for the series? Harry would be the Saviour, of course, and he would sacrifice himself for the good of the Wizarding Community, travel to the "Hell" of sorts of the Wizarding World then return again.... That would match the Theory that Harry and Voldemort would go through the Veil and there Lord Voldemort would stay, in the Land of the Dead... How Harry would return, I dont know.. But this is straying into a whole different line of thought..

~Albus

Albus, you asked:



[thanks for telling me how to quote like that, btw]

I guess I was not explicitly making that connection, but it is intriguing. I was more saying that LV was saying "no" to love in general, to the obligations that reality imposes on its beings. But since he is a character it makes sense to pair him with other characters in the metaphor. I dont know that I would want to go all that way in the 'savior' model, but then again that model is itself an embodiment of many traditions of hero literature, including perhaps even the resurrection motif.

Fish, you said of my suggestion about Harry being a horcrux helping speed the narrative along:


but I'm either not getting something or I just disagree--why would Harry have to be an intentional horcrux? Harry discovering that he is a horcrux however he got that way eliminates a long search for some other object.

Albus said,


I do see your point more clearly here....maybe it would be a good idea not to tell Harry that he himself will have to be destroyed. Except in that conversation Harry seems (and has all along seemed) perfectly willing to invite his own death if it meant the good end. Maybe DD could not himself bring himself to ask Harry to invite this. But since I do like the idea of the sorting hat coming to have this role, I am tempted to go with the idea that DD didnt know. That would mean that DD can only sense protections and not horcruxes per se. Hmmm....

And since the rest of your post deals with having postulated the idea of the cave as a tutorial, I am reminded that I am about to go do one....so, bye for now.

Ok, we have been working on the assumption that there are 6 horcruxes (plus the piece of soul within Voldemort himself, making 7 pieces of soul total). Dumbledore reached this conclusion from what Tom Riddle said, and we can take it for granted that Dumbledore is right and that voldemort desires to split his soul into 7 pieces. There is no limit (as far as we know) to how many pieces a soul can be split into. However, a soul has never been split into more than two before. There has never been a need.

Voldemort planned on creating 6 horcruxes in order to split his soul into 7 pieces. Before that fateful halloween night, Voldemort had 5. let's go through them:

1) the diary (most likely Voldemort's first horcrux)
2) the ring (most likely the second)
3) the locket
4) the cup (3 and 4 were probobly next, because he obtained these objects before he disappeared)
5) the something of griffindor's or ravenclaw's

Voldemort went to Harry's to create horcrux 6 out of Harry's death. We do not know what Voldemort intended to use for the 6th horcrux, but there must have been something he intended to use. We will call this "the mystery object." Since we don't know the way that a horcrux is made, we can't say whether voldemort brought the mystery object to godric's hollow or if he had it somewhere else and planned on going there later. It could also be that Harry's dead corpse was the intended horcrux, in which case Voldemort intended on creating the horcrux either immediately before or immediately after killing Harry (depending on how a horcrux is made). That all goes into the theories of how Harry could accidentally be made a horcrux.

At any rate, Voldemort went with the intent of creating a horcrux, his final (6th) one. His attempt at creating a horcrux failed and he was turned into a "less-than-spirit." What happened to the mystery object depends on the issues I stated previously. For years, Voldemort waited to be revived, but finally, thanks to wormtail, he was able to return to a rudementary body. At that point Voldemort was not aware that his attempt to make a horcrux had succeeded (given it did). So, as far as Voldemort knew, he only had 5 horcruxes. So, he used the death of the caretaker to create a horcrux in Nagini.

If Voldemort was not aware of the horcrux being made, then he would want to make another one in nagini. If he was aware, then he would not make another one in nagini, but he also would not have attempted to kill Harry in books 1 and 4. Harry being a horcrux (whether or not it was destroyed in book 4) would not decrease the number of horcruxes Harry is looking for unless Voldemort knew that Harry was a horcrux, which complicates the "harry is a horcrux" theory significantly. I'd say it's safe to assume that Harry is still looking for two magically-protected horcruxes, plus Nagini and the lost locket, and that Harry as a horcrux, if he is a horcrux at all, is an additional, accidental, 7th horcrux and 8th piece of soul.

-Fish

This is a toughy. I'm not 100% sure about my opinion yet. I'm kind of sitting on the fence.

It would be smart to have Harry as a horcrux because then (obviously) Harry would have to die in order to kill Voldomort. But then who would kill Voldomort? It would kind of ruin the story if somone other than Harry killed Voldy.

Also, if Harry were a horcrux, why would Voldy be trying to kill him? Would that not make him lose a part of his own soul making himself for vulnerable to death?

So yeah, I guess I'm kinda leaning towards the fact that Harry's probably not a horcrux but I can't be sure yet. I don't have a definate opinion.

They both could die simultaneously by plunging into the Veil. Harry could fight Voldemort for a huge amount of time before he would even begin to make progress in winning over him. Perhaps Harry will just throw the wand to the side, and tackle Voldemort right into the Veil!!



Voldemort should have anchored his soul to this very question, because then he would surely never die... hehe

Making Harry a Horcrux intentionally would be extremely stupid of Voldemort, and many do not believe he did. The most common consensus is that Harry was made a Horcrux unintentionally and therefore Voldemort doesnt know about it, hence his attempted murders of Harry.

~Albus

I think that it is possible that Harry is himself a Horcrux,
because Harry seems to have some of Voldys powers and can se Voldys thought...
but im not sure because, why would Voldy make a Horcrux he couldnt really moniter the safety of??????
umless it was an accident that Harry became a Horcrux...
ARGH!!!! im comfused!!!!

No way man your theories are as off the mark as Snape kissing harry
Firstly harry is NOT a horcrux nor is he a puppet of LV
HORCRUX creation theory---i thought horcruxes were the the things where the part of a soul was kept safe .
it is said that the person who wants to make the horcrux must hold it in his hand while killing the other ****. this way the ripped soul travels into the object where it can be kept safe

Well, about the creation of horcruxes that is one theory, but we don't know that is true. It isn't said in the books anywhere. You say you don't agree with this theory. Do you have any other reasons other than simply "you're wrong?" We'd love to discuss your thoughts with you.

-Fish

I agree with Fish here, I would like to see more evidence and more explanation from those who oppose the argument that Harry is a Horcrux.

I do not think that anyone has ever said that Harry was a puppet of Lord Voldemort, and if they did, then they are on their own with that theory.

Horcruxes are the division of the soul which is then placed into an external object to act as an anchor to guard the soul in the body from mortal death. You see, if the entire soul is not present, one cannot die by normal means.

As for your belief on the creation of Horcruxes, it is a theory. It was never stated in canon, and I believe I disproved the necessity of having the object at the time of the murder in the last thread. I proved, IMO, that Horcruxes can be made months after the murders took place. I'll dig my explanation up if someone wants to contest it.

~Albus

Albus, you cheeky monkey!

Fish, thanks for that clarification, yes, I see your point about the number seven not being an actual constraint on the horcruxes, and hence it not having any good role in the narrative for it to work out that Harry used to be one but isnt anymore (unless she's got something up her sleeve....). Or, unless the upper limit of horcruxes IS seven, and LV didnt find that out until recently.

Albus, you said

I mostly agree with this, unless LV were really taken by the idea that the human horcrux Harry would have to kill itself in order to fulfill its end of the prophecy (killing LV) as LV interpreted it. It would be a sick twist he might enjoy. And since it would defeat the logic of the prophecy (Harry would NOT be able to be the one to kill him), he might have found some glee in this. He might even have been willing to risk that piece of soul to make this twisted point. In fact, maybe we are underestimating LV's reading of prophecies--maybe he too does know that a prophecy is only fulfilled through actions of choice, and what he is trying to destroy in building a horcrux into Harry is the morale and motivation of those who might think they could defeat him. Just an hypothesis....

I forgot that I used to support that idea, and Im glad you thought to bring it up. Voldemort, in his mind, thinks that death is the worst possible outcome, and therefore would never imagine that someone would take their own life to destroy his. He may have intended Harry to be the Horcrux, but then why try to kill him? That is the major question that blocks the idea of a intentional creation of a horcrux within Harry. I do however, like the idea of Voldemort creating a Horcrux out of the one who is prophecized to kill him... his mind would make sense of it.

~Albus

My stab at this 'horcruxian' theory of Harry the Horcrux would be to emphasize that point at the end of my post, that "what he is trying to destroy in building a horcrux into Harry is the morale and motivation of those who might think they could defeat him." I think he would assume that the resolve of his enemies would be pretty firm, and that the Horcrux Harry would be sacrificed or sacrifice himself eventually in the attempt to defeat him. So LV may already think of Harry as expendable soul. So, coming and killing him first when he rejoins the wizarding world would really be a blow to the morale and mindset of the other side. "See, even your 'chosen one' couldnt defeat me". My gut tells me there are probably statements in canon that might rule this out, that I am forgetting right now, but the other side of my gut thinks LV is sick and misguided enough to do this. He risked a piece of soul in the diary, so why not make a grand statement with this one? One thing against this is that in making two pieces of soul that are at risk, and one that is not only at risk but INTENDED to be destroyed, what sense does that make of his suspicion of the power of a seven-part soul? Unless he is planning on creating horcruxes to always keep the number at seven despite any destruction.

One thing that we need to make clear is that Voldemort may have never used the Killing Curse on Harry. He specifically says that he could not Touch Harry. Second, I noticed what was said about Voldemort's wand. What happend to it. Voldemort had to be to weak to have it. Wormtail was a rat and all of the other follower's thought Voldemort was dead. His wand has played an important role since the Philosopher's Stone. Could the brother of Harry's wand be a Horcrux instead of Harry??...

I meant not only his attempted murder during the actual timeline of the series, but his attempted murder of Harry right then and there at Godric's Hollow. Why make him a Horcrux then kill him immediately when nobody else, save for Dumbledore and Snape, knew of the Prophecy? What morale would be lost if the Wizarding Community wok eup on November 1st to find an entire family murdered by Voldemort? It would have caused more distress, but this kind of thing had been happening for 11 years. But, in the end, I still agree that such a statement would be made by Voldemort making his enemy a Horcrux. I agree with you on that matter.



It specifically says in canon that Voldemort used the killing curse on Harry. Not only has every other character stated his survival of it, but Voldemort himself speaks of the rebounded curse that destroyed him, when he returns in the Graveyard. That is one my favorite scenes!

~Albus

That has convinced me as I remember Dumbledore saying that Voldemort gave some of his powers to Harry and the prophesy also says that the Chosen One would be marked as the Dark Lords equal.

Thanks for correcting me, I forgot about that scene.

Oh yeah, so that pretty much vanquishes that idea.....duh!.....it's been a long day and my office is hot...lol.

So now I just have to decide between not-a-horcrux and unintentional-horcrux. I'm about 50/50 at this point. Unintentional horcrux places more burdens on book seven, getting all this explained without the great explainer being around. But maybe that will be Hermoine's new role, to be the explainer.

I truly beleive that Harry is a horcrux. The funny thing is that right after I finished reading HBP for the 1st time, I came up with this theory and I had not previosly seen it anywhere. So, this really convinced me that I was correct. Okay, this is the theory that I think is right:

LV is out to kill all of the people who love harry (focus on the word 'love') so that when he finally cenfronts Harry face to face he has nothing stopping him from killing H. I think that after Harry destroys all of the Horcruxes in the DH except for himself and LV real soul, he realizes that he will have to commit suicide and goes to the "DEATHLY HALLOWS" to formally make himself a ghost when he dies so that he can continue defeating all of LV's followers.


Does anyone agree??????

Mine is similar except that I think Wormtail will finish LV off, since he owes a debt to Harry.

Ghost can't kill people or defeat them, I believe. So, to be blunt, that's not ever going to happen. And people only become ghost because they are afraid of death or some sort, but Harry most assurdley isn't which knocks that as an option. Also, he would want to see his parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore again in the afterlife if one truly exists in the wizarding world.



Wormtail....hmmm, I don't think so. He's a wuss! He lacks courage, brains, and a moral compass to ever do the right thing and go against the Dark Lord, the biggest bullie on the playground. However, he does owe Harry a debt, so he could do something significant and helpful, but not anything that great.

Wormtail is a problem. On the one hand, he's a snivelling coward. On the other, he was clever enough to lay low as a rat for years gathering information, and then to find LV and nurse him to at least fetal stage; he ratted out the Potters, killed about a dozen muggles to fake his own death, wantonly killed Cedric, killed Bertha Jorkins, cut off his own hand for LV, and is now camped out with Snape. So, we have no evidence of a moral compass, but some evidence of brains and at least gumption if not courage.

So can Wormtail be reasonably expected to fulfill the debt to Harry? it is hard to imagine with his resume. The question is what this resume amounts to. What on earth is the deal with him? Wouldnt it be funny if Pettigrew had become the inadvertent horcrux? (I believe that's been ruled out somehow but forget the argument).... It would be interesting if Wormtail were to take a horcrux out of Harry somehow and transfer it to himself (or have it be done)--he could console himself that he was taking a bit of his master's soul for protection, but then get himself killed.

You can't exactly do that can you? Taking the soul out of an object to place it into another. Of course, there is no evidence against it, but I was under the impression that once a soul was in an object, it was there for good, until destroyed by another wizard. If Harry is an horcrux, then I see no other way of destroying the soul within him, but to kill himself.

Oh, and wormtail courageous? Hahaha. His fear overpowers his bravery. As for smart. I suppose, since he had enough sense (not good though) to trade his friend's lives for his own.

There is no evidence either way. You would want the soul to be permanent enough so that others could not remove it, but you would also want it versatile enough so that you yourself, or those learned in the darkest of dark arts, could remove it if necessary and switch the items used, perhaps for a better trophy, or something a little less conspicuous.



That is a huge mistake. Peter has more... erm.. courage, if you want to call it that, than we think. He learned how to become an animagus ( a difficult task ) under the nose of Albus Dumbledore, he ran around with a werewolf once a month, betrayed the Potters, faced Sirius with a plan and blew up an an entire street, along with something like 13 other people, hid as a rat for 12 years, returned to the Dark Lord, carried out multiple tasks for him including capturing Bertha Jorkins and providing Voldemort with a rudimentary body until he aids him in his final resurrection. Peter is an accomplished wizard, and will come to his senses I am sure. We liken him to a coward for betraying the Potters under the fear of the Dark Lord, and yes, it was a cowardly thing... to betray ones friends. But the power the Dark Lord had was nothing compared to friendship in his eyes. Pettigrew watched Lily and James, Frank and Alice defy the Dark Lord three times apiece, and watched the Order evade Voldemort for nearly 16 months after the Prophecy. The ONLY reason the Potter's were found and killed was because of Peter. If Peter really wanted to be good at that point, he could have relinquished his role as Secret Keeper and went into hiding with them. Voldemort would never have known if Albus Dumbledore was made Secret Keeper, as he naturally would have when protecting a defecting Death Eater. I feel we will see some heroic act by Wormtail in the end, and Harry's life debt that is owed to him will be paid in full, and this may or may not involve the Horcrux within him.

~Albus

Albus, glad we see Pettigrew in the same light. I am uncertain about a heroic act in the end coming from him on Harry's side, and yet it's odd, isnt it, the absence of much interaction or description of mutual significance there is between Harry and Wormtail in, for example, the graveyard scene, or in much of Harry's thinking process afterwards. That narrative suppression betokens, for me, an explosion of this very issue in the last book.

What I am wondering right now and don't have a lot of time to research is what exactly is the extent of what we do know about the nature of the relationship between Pettigrew and Snape? Here are two huge mysteries, Harry/PP and Harry/SS, both of which involve the time of the marauders at Hogwarts, both of which are involved in the fulfillment of the prophecy through LV's actions (Snape and PP both "told" in their ways), and which have converged in the presence of PP at SS's house at the beginning of HBP. If this info has been systematically unpacked somewhere on the boards and you know where, let me know!

It's interesting that Mr. Underestimated is living with Mr. I Am Impressive.

heyy!!!

I totally support this theory!!!

I think that this would explain harry's unlikely connection to voldemort *shudder* and why harry's wand is the same feather and all!!!

It would also mean harry got his parsle-tounge ability because harry has voldemort's soul inside him!!!

this could also be why the sorting hat initially wanted to put him in slytheryn and why harry has that certain empathy towards voldemort and why he often shares his thoughts!!!

COOL!!!





slightly confuzing but!!!

From what I believe, Souls do not carry powers. They are just an imprint or reflection of the person about their character traits but not necessarily carrying them. If Harry can inherit parseltoungue from Voldemort through the soul as an horcrux, then he could have also inherited many other things such as a strong desire for immortality. But he hasn't. I'm not sure how exacty he would have recieved Voldemort's powers, but I don't think it was from that.



The horcrux (if one really exists within him) possibly could have played a role in the sorting hat considering Harry to be in Slytherin, but I mainly think that that happened because he actually possesses qualities that Slytherin holds such as determination, talent, and a thirst to prove himself.

Okay i definitly say no. no way. I have read all the theories and all of that but i will never be convinced. As if the obvious isnt enough to prove harry is a horcrux there is still the fact that voldy had NO time to make him seeing as it would be impossible to maek it on accident because it is such powerful dark magic.

Ok guys, let's really think about this.
Voldemort was planning on making his last horcrux after killing Harry.
Voldemort didn't kill Harry because the curse rebounded and reverted him to a mere spirit like creature.
During his time in the forest voldemort didn't have a wand and couldn't have created a horcrux
As part of Quirrell, he didn't have a wand and didn't kill another human during his time as a head.
The only other time he was near Harry was after he regained his body and he planned to make the last horcrux after finishing him off once and for all
But he didn't and harry got away.
IN the fifth book he didn't kill any one in the dept of mysteries so he couldn't have made Harry a horcrux while possessing him (not to mention dumby was there)
so all in all,
Harry isn't a horcrux because voldy didn't have an opportunity that was favorable to creating a horcrux.
Second, if he would have made harry a horcrux, he wouldn't be trying to finish him off every possible second so...
Harry is not a horcrux!

Voldemort has killed many times, tearing his soul over and over... he would not need an additional kill to provide the necessary tear to proceed in splitting his soul. I believe a Horcrux was made accidentally, and my theory in creation theory number one on the first post on the first page.



again... this is more theory that he didnt kill anyone. We are never told that he hasnt killed anyone, and frankly it doesnt matter if he did. His soul has been torn many times by killing in the past, and he has killed many more times than he has Horcruxes. For instance, he killed Lily and James on the night of his own demise, providing two fresh tears.



We do not know what conditions are favorable since we know little about Horcruxes in general. All we have is theory, so a theory that a horcrux couldnt be made accidentally is just as probably as the opposing argument.



Again, if it was made accidentally, and unintentionally, Voldemort would not have known it was made, and therefore would have no problem killing him. I believe that if Voldemort knew Harry was a Horcrux, and there was no way to remove the Horcrux without destroying it, Voldemort would indeed opt to destroy the one with the power to vanquish him by sacrificing 1/7th of his soul, or perhaps 1/8th if he found out of the Horcrux in Harry after completing his initial 6 Horcruxes, plus the body-bound piece he possesses.

~Albus

So to me this problematizes the whole horcrux search--it is conceivable that once he experienced becoming vapormort, LV decided to just horcrux away, creating an indefinite number of soul-anchors to hedge his bets. In that case, the search for the horcruxes is potentially really indefinite. I suppose we are meant to think of him as really constrained (in tha narrative sense) by the idea of seven pieces of soul, which the accidental Harry horcrux might have unwittingly extended to eight if LV made up the "missing" one he thought he needed. Just seems like the total could be 7, 8, or 20, unless I'm missing something. So if the search is to be important, do we need to believe that, indeed, LV really decided to stop at 7 pieces?

I think that the focus of weather or not harry is a horcrux needs to be upon defining what conditions are favorable for such dark magic. I think that there is a lot of truth to the argument that Harry and voldemort share a special connection, but if Harry is not a favorable vessel and his body cannot sustain such dark magic then the argument is all for not. Now it is my contention that because the process of making a horcrux is so dark and even involves the evil of murder and soul-splitting, the object of which the soul is projected upon must be dark. There are solid examples of this slytherins locket and other materials were all given dark properties, because they have no true nature of thier own. Now Nagini is another case in point here, dumbledore said nagini was a less effective horcrux because she was a living thing. The only reason she was probably used is because as a serpant she has a naturally dark nature and LV was in a hurry. Now keep all of this in mind when you consider the fact that Harry as a human is way more complex of a creature, thus an even worse horcrux. Not to mention the fact that harry has no dark nature of his own. Thus Harry must be a completely horrible horcrux.

Another thing that I find particularly convincing is the idea that the love spell that was cast by lily potter would have blocked any and all spells by LV including one to make a horcrux. Evidence for this is found in HPSS where voldemort is unable to even touch him, let alone make a horcrux from him.

Finally all of the theories saying that harry is a horcrux rely on the idea that he was going to make a horcrux when he killed Harry. Well as he never did kill Harry his soul was never split to form the horcrux that he went there to create.

Honestly, Albus Dumbledore, I don't think a person could make a horcrux unintentionally even if that person has killed so many times that it becomes routine.
killing is not an innocent act and it isn't easy. Killing tears the soul everytime, yes. But one has to intentionally use that bad energy from killing and put the part torn into an object.
Harry isn't an object. He is a person that is almost immune to evil and dark acts. He has never had the slightest feeling to want to be evil or like voldemort. He has always abhorred him.
A body with Voldemort's soul in it would be evil. It would be likely to want to do evil acts because voldemor, after all is evil.
Harry wouldn't be able to love sirius or ginny or dumby. As we see in the books he loves all of them enough to want to save them even if it is at a risk to himself.
Harry is pure and a slice of evil couldn't co exist with purity and love. especially if it is voldy evil.

If I understood you correctly then you are saying that the horcrux needs to be made at the time of the murder? I disagree, and so does the text. Tom Riddle created his first Horcrux months after his first killings.



Harry is a living creature which we are told are able to bear a soul and become a horcrux. Harry is not immune to darks acts and evil seeing as he inherited dark powers from Voldemort minutes after his mother's sacrifice was created when she died.



not if the nature of the horcrux is to be dormant so as to evade detection, to fullfill its task of cheating death.

~Albus

The denial of Harry being a horcrux based on an appeal to purity is tenuous. I dont think JKR portrays a pure Harry, nor would we want him to be pure. That doesnt mean he could not be resistant to horcruxing for other reasons, but purity is not such a reason unto itself, I dont think.

The notion that horcruxes require very deliberate dark magic as opposed to inadvertent dark magic is an interesting point and I cant wait to read Albus's thoughts about this....nice idea.

I believe the possibility of Harry as a Horcrux is incredibly valid. If you think about it, it would accomplish what JK wanted in the series. Harry would understand that to save the world from Voldemort, he would have to sacrifice himself, therefore becoming the ultimate hero of the books, and can join his family and Sirius on the other side of the veil. Also, if he's a horcrux, then JK can have him die at the end and that would make it so that no one could pick up the series after she's finished with it. Harry as a Horcrux makes too much sense not to be valid, plus he's in Gryffindor and is obviously incredibly important to the Wizarding world, not to mention the personification of what a Gryffindor should stand for, courage and intelligence. Someone who is brave enough to stand up to anything for the good of the world at large. The reasons for outweigh the reasons against in my opinion.

But how could a piece of soul that is evil reside inside the body of a boy who is full of that force called love? Remember that Voldemort could not posses Harry at the end of the Order of the Phoenix because Harry thought that it would be better to die because he would see Sirius again and his heart filled with emotion and Voldemort fled. Voldemort did not know that Harry was gonna be in Gryffindor at the time of the killing of his parents. Harry was also not important to the Wizarding world at that moment cause nobody knew, least of all Voldemort, that Harry was gonna survive and that the dark lord would be defeated.