Alright, so when we meet Harry he lives in the cabinet under the stairs and hasn't had a proper bedroom since his parents died (or at least not one that we know of). When the letters start coming he gets his own bedroom 9the smallest one, Dudley's second one). But what did they do when Harry was like 18 months old and stuff? Dump him in a crib/on the floor of the cupboard? I mean they wouldn't want to put him in his own bedroom and he couldn't dare be put with Dudley in case he infected him or something. Its not importent, just on of those little buggy things.

i think when harry was a baby they were nice to him they gave him a crib in there room or where dudley was only when he did not have to be fid in the middel night did they move him down to the cuprude

that would make sense, I just never thought that the Dursley's would want Harry (no matter what age) to mix with Dudley (in case he 'infected' him)

You know, little things like that kind of bug me too. I've often thought about Harry's early life.....

He was just over one year old when Lily and James were killed, which means that he might have just about been walking then, and definitely not potty-trained....which means that Petunia would have still had the whole high-chair-food throwing, nappy changing, teething thing to do...which requires an awful lot of patience and care. She would have had to pick him up when he fell over, wiped his runny noses, picked him up from school, taken him to the doctors when he got sick.....

Not to mention his glasses....I guess that means that, at some time, someone must have noticed that Harry wasn't able to see so well. Which meant a trip to the opticians.....Petunia cared enough about Harry to take him? To buy him glasses?

Mmm.....I dunno.....all things considered......I think it might be just a little short sighted of all us HP fans to so widely condemn Petunia......

As Sirius said, no one is wholly good......but neither is anyone wholly evil......

Yes, I always wondered about the glasses and the whole let me spoon food into your mouth and potty train and all. Even if Petunia cared enough to give Harry that what would Vernon say? Its just though little things that I spend hours thinking on.

Like you guys, these little things have come across my mind once or twice at one point in time too.

I've mentioned this before on another thread and I shall say it again here. I do not think Vernon and Petunia despise Harry as much as they make out to be. It's like Petunia hating her sister...she may not believe in magic, but Lily was family. I think the only reason why Petunia (and Vernon) make themselves out to be so anti-magic and anti-Harry's family was because they *do* think magic is a load of rubbish but from first hand experience (Lily) it had to be true, so they're choosing (or rather, trying) to live in denial of its existence. It's like hating boyband music, but you actually really love this one song from Backstreet Boys...however, that's such a contradiction and not to mention a bit embarassing, so every chance you get, you bash boybands and go on and on about how much you hate them. Did all that make any sense??

For me, the glasses are the biggest clue. Harry could have hardly gone to the optician by himself!! So obviously, Vernon and Petunia, as much as they always treat Harry as if he were a burden, still had it in their heart to bring Harry to get his eyes checked and to get him glasses.

Yes, Unless the glasses were an heirloom from his father? I doubt they would've survived. Something is telling me that the only thing stopping them from liking Harry as their own son is that. They're scared of him. They aren't completely the neighbour obsessed cretins that we see.

I never really thought of Petunia mothering him. Strange....

I guess it's possible but James must have worn them till he died so that rules it out. I never saw Petunia mothering Harry either; as I said, I reckon they don't hate Harry as much as they say but the dislike is definitely there. But as it seems quite unlikely for Harry to have gone and got the glasses on his own, there must be SOME care (even just a teensy bit) in them for them to bring him to the optometrist. Or maybe...they only finally agreed after much bugging from Harry and also thinking that his needing glasses added to his many "imperfections" (what with Dudley having perfect eyesight).

Yeah thats likely. Harry having glasses would just make him more imperfect.

Very Very good point!!!

But even finding out about his eyesight problem? That would have taken some sort of diagnosis.

I don't think that Harry's glasses were a hand-me-down from anyone - not even James! If they were prescription, the likelihood of Harry being able to see through them would have been zero!! No, someone definitely had to take him to the optician for a test...although he probably would have had the frames free of charge on the NHS, which all kids over here do. NHS frames are not exactly fashion statements, but they are free, as are the eye-tests, so it wouldn't have cost the Dursleys anything other than time and effort to take Harry to the opticians.

Whilst that kind of explains things, I think, it still doesn't really explain away the fact that the Dursleys still noticed and did make that effort....

And actions speak a lot louder than words......

What if it wasn't the Dursley's who noticed and make the effort? What if it's some teachers from school? I seems to remember several eye-tests being carried out by the NHS-like here when I was in primary school (7 - 12 years old)...just a thought...

Ooh....now there's a thought.....Mmm......actually, they did used to do that over here, but I don't think they do anymore. They used to have 'nit nurses' coming around too to check kids for head lice, hearing tests, dentists and things, but since the legislation has been tightened up about adult/child contact when the parents are not present, I'm not so sure that they do school visits anymore. I don't think they're allowed to have actual physical contact with kids anymore.

But seeing as how the back story would have taken place in the 80's when they were still doing the visits, then I guess....yeah.....it is possible the school nurse would have noticed.

That actually makes more sense, when you think about it.....

Aw, well....I guess I was just hoping that there might be some redeeming qualities within Petunia......I guess maybe not after all.....

It is still that they had a duty of care and they followed it through. I still think that Petunia has a few hidden loyalties. (But that could be my imagination taking over )

Maybe eh, who knows?

I mean, JKR said that there's not much more to Dudley and that in the next 2 books we will see hardly any of him but she didn't say anything about Petunia. And after what we know now from that Howler scene, there's definitely more to Petunia that JKR has yet to reveal to us.

Just because the Dursleys get him glasses doesn't necessarily mean they are showing any fondness towards Harry. Don't forget that Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia are all about image and the last thing they want to do is look bad in front of others. You don't want others telling you that your starving your child or anything and get taken away for child abuse (ehh I don't know the laws in England but I'm pretty sure that should happen). The manner in which they get him glasses like going to the optician may reveal a lot about who they are. For instance, if Harry was scared of having his eye checked but the Dursleys just stay in the waiting room because they don't want others to think he's his child. Does that sound like affection?

It's really sad thinking about how the rest of his infanthood was like! I can imagine Aunt Petunia taking a pacifier out of Harry's mouth and giving it to Dudley!

Woah, good theories. Poor Harry I feel really bad for him now. ashleigh's glass theory makes the most sense probably. Poor poor Harry....

I know, It is so sad!! I could just *pick Harry up and give him a hug*
There's still a lot more to Petunia... If Harry was taken away from them and they had no feeling for how important he is or special. They would have been Ok with it. I mean, the neighbours hardly know who he is. Even if he exists.

You know, all in all, if the neighbours knew that Harry was being locked in a cupboard under the stairs, then the Social Services would definitely have paid Vernon and Petunia a visit. I can tell you that without any doubt or hesitation because I've done a course on Child Protection laws in Britain. There is no doubt that the Dursley's treatment of Harry amounts to child abuse. Perhaps not actual physical abuse, but most definitely mental - one of the most serious kinds there are because the bruises don't show. Plus it's much harder to prove.

It strikes me that the Dursleys must be denser than lead to take the risk that Harry might one day have let it slip to someone, somewhere about the way he was being treated. I know that he was stoical in his attitudes there, but all the same, putting up with abuse because he thought he could handle it or didn't want to tell anyone out of fear of the repurcussions was just totally and completely unacceptable. The Dursleys should be in prison for what they've done!!!

Which is why I think, if they did take him to the opticians, then it most probably was mostly because they feared the reactions from Harry's school had they not had his eyes tested.

Also, they would have had to regularly take Harry, as a baby, to a clinic to see a Health Visitor who would also have taken note of any suspected abuse.

I think the Dursleys would have been aware of all this and the fact that, in some way, they would have been monitored and so would have been very careful about everything they said or did.

With Harry being magical and bearing all these points in mind, it's quite unsurprising to me now that Vernon and Petunia are as neurotic and paranoid as they are.

Yeah the Dursleys must have been really aware and cautionous with the law. Harry hasn't really told anyone about his...er..."summer life" or early childhood or whatever, right? I can just picture Mr. Weasley running up to the Dursleys once he finds out...

I have always wondered why Harry has never mentioned his cupboard to Ron or Hermione. But then again, it seems that none of the trio ever really talk about their home life. All I know about Hermione's parents is that they are dentists and they like to take Hermione on holidays a lot.

I am surprised that they never got caught for abusing him like that. But, then again thats how it goes.

Even Harry going around in Dudleys second hand clothes. Whilst that is not abuse. Imagine what the neighbours thought of the little scruffy kid that lived there? It's weird that no one ever mentioned anything about Harry.

Surely someone must realise that St Brutus' school for deliquents doesn't exist? Or are they all really unintelligent?

Well, I've always wondered about that myself to be honest, but I guess I let that one slide by. Purely because, in reality, I'm pretty sure someone within the local council/government would have noticed that Harry Potter is not currently attending a local comprehensive school, which is where he should be at that age.

I guess it's willing suspension of disbelief.....it's a magical world after all and I think that if you try to apply too much logic to it, you'll end up driving yourself nuts!

I guess it's just one of those things that we have to accept on face value because none of it really makes a whole lot of sense once you start dissecting it....

I know of quite a few people who couldn't stand Harry in OotP because of his tantrums and outbursts. And although, I do think at some points he was a bit of a prat, I think that overall, he had every reason to be the way he was in OotP.

I've always said that it must royally suck to be Harry. I don't even want to try and imagine what it's like to walk a day in his shoes. Honestly!! He has endure much suffering and loss so early in his life, he's definitely had to go through so much more than the average person his age.

And even what we've been discussing here, it's made me really think about this, about Harry and his life, and it's made me feel even sorrier for him. The poor kid.

I have always loved Harry.

I agree with the St Brutus thing. But what about the clothing thing. To their neighbours they are sending out very clear messages of what is going on.

Another thing about those *insert appropriate expletitive here* glasses. They were broken. Perhaps it was when Dudley first gave Harry 'the old one two' but I doubt it. There has to be a deeper reason. There has to be. Just a little thing...

Another reason why the Dursley had to be careful was because they would not only have to face with the Social Services people but also with Dumbledore. But then that makes you wonder, there had to be some way DD knew about this and he didn't stop it. Well, then again because of the letters he got a new bedroom and Moody sure does have fun threating them, so maybe he did do a little...

Yeah I think they fed him right and everything when he was little

I don't think so. Remember Harry in the first book. It said something like 'he never had as much food as he wanted. Dudley always took anything that Harry really wanted even if it made him sick.' that could be three things

1. JKR was showing us how horrible that Dudley can be and further emphasising it.
2. JKR was telling us that Harry was being maltreated.
3. Both.

Poor Harry...

Aw...**sniff** The more I think about poor Harry, the more upset I get!! That kid has had such a terrible life....I'll never understand why people thought his anger was irrational and over-the-top in OotP. Who among us can honestly say that we've nevr lost it out of frustration, rage and pain? How can you honestly expect a 15 year old boy to retain control over his emotions when that would be impossible for most adults who had experienced even one tenth of what Harry has been through?

That poor kid has taken everything life's thrown at him and still managed to hold onto his capacity for kindness, doing the right thing, caring about his friends....

I'm sorry, but I really think that people who criticise Harry's anger in OotP are just not truly in touch with his character and the essence of the books and are taking a far too simplified view of the stories. I have always loved Harry to bits and I'll continue to love him to bits. I just hope that one day, all that rage and pain will be worth it for him...I'll be in mourning for years if JKR ever killed him...even heroically......it would be just like losing....someone else.....all over again....

I agree. Even though I think it may be nice if someone bought him a pack of stressballs I for one know that if I went through everything Harry went through I would definatly get quite angry and frustrated at people. And now poor Harry has the prophecy, Sirius ::insert evil little 'D' word here:: and Bellatrix being on the lose. Then there is the everyday stresses of schoolwork, social life, and teachers not to mention if Harry gets a girlfriend....
Makes you want to give him a nice big 'ol hug now doesn't it.

Well, I identify with everytime that Harry has yelled, screamed, ranted and raved. Its a part of growing up..... I've done it plenty of times...

I love Harry.. I think that you would realise that he is my favourite character. Everything that you look at in more detail just makes me want to cry really badly.... So I suppose it isn't good for reading around other people....

Yeah about Harry's anger I think that the people who have a problem with Harry's anger obviously don't appreciate his life experiences and the toll that they would have on him.

I think that they would have cared for him when he was small nut now that Dudley is older they want to give him more attention. And excellent point about the glasses.

i wouldnt have thought they woul have been nice to him when he was young but the wouldnt have treated him like they did when he was 11. but as you said they wouldnt have let him near diddykins

Well, maybe they kept him in there room till he was 4? then they put a bed in that large (for a cupboard, it's pretty roomy) and he slep on a cot...

Yeah I’ve wondered all this too. Perhaps his glasses came from his father (his father did wear glasses right?) and his bedroom was probably in the cupboard. I mean he WAS small enough. Potty training? Hehe that’s funny.

Aunt Marge, apparently, always lobbied to have Harry shipped off to an orphanage. It is easy to put a crib in an under stairs cupboard also. Plenty of "parents" leave their kids in poopy diapers until the "parent" is darned good and ready to deal with them. Sometimes babies treated that way, become quite introspective, because their early attempts at communication (crying when hungry/ wet/ poopy) bring no response. I see the dursleys as always couching their care of Harry in terms of what would the neighbors think.

Neighbors notice poopy diapers, and severe diaper rashes from a lack of care. Neighbors notice that children don't get eyeglasses or hearing aids when they need them. Neighbors might not say anything, but Petunia and hubby would be "sensitive" to some of these possible criticisms. This sensitivity did not extend to "making the orphan feel like one of the family" however. They wanted the neighbors to know Harry was not theirs, but they stopped short of overt and wanton cruelty, or anything that might have sparked a call to the UK/ Surrey version of Child Protective Services.

I'd say that they were slightly nicer to him as a baby, as they were trying to squash the magic out of him. So i'd say they gave him a cheep cot to sleep in and shoved him in the cupboard under the stairs.

Anywho, maybe his glasses were his dad's one's? Dunno ... and toilet training? God that would be funny, i can see it now ...

Uncle vernon: Come on now Harry! Up here on the BIG toilet for BIG boys!

Lol! *Controls laughter* ok ... ok, so maybe they taught Dudley and left harry to teach himself? Geez, poor Harry!

About where he slept when he was only a baby...I think he was in the cupboard under the stairs,sleeping in a cardboard box or in a basket with the same blankets which he was wearing the night that dumbledore sent him to Privet Drive.
I can't believe that the Dursleys bought him glasses (perhaps,the cheapest ones).I think the glasses are from his father.

Well Uncle Vernon didn't take care of him. In OotP, Petunia gets a howler from Dumbledore that says, "REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA!" Remember? So, when Harry was a baby, that letter that Dumbledore placed with Harry when he left him on their doorstep was fresh in her mind, so she took care of him. I'm guessing she kept baby Harry in her room, and did all those motherly things until he got too old for it to be noticed by Uncle Vernon and Dudley. Deep down, I believe Aunt Petunia does love Harry, she has just been too scared to admit it because of Vernon and Dudley. When Harry leaves once and for all, she should give him a hug and confess that she really does like him.

yea...i thought about the glasses thing and this too....

i mean did they care? i think they would, because would you leave a baby alone? or a one year old, whatever... that would have some guilt on your conciense (sp?)....

I think they had him sleep in the cuboard under the staires. I think they must have let him out in the daytime though, but they probably didn't take care of him much. Like they might have just thrown a bottle on the floor for him!

I think they took care of him to make sure he at least survived, but I think once he started to talk or something, he was left alone! I mean, they didn't want DD to come turn them into toads or something! Also, I doubt that they were always with him, just made sure he was breathing, also made sure he could see properly, but as we noticed, the glasses were never fixed properly! Also, even if, at the age of one, Harry needed a crib or something, I mean do you think Dudley could still fit in one? I would think he would already be in a bed! Just Kidding! But really, I think they at least made sure he was kept alive so DD wouldn't turn up on their doorstep and do something to them!

*Breanna*

Ithink that Harry was, for the most part, left to fend for himself. They gave him food and clothes and shelter and glasses, but that was probably it. Man that must have been tough. I mean, when Harry was a little kid, he probably had his curiosity somewhat stiffened from the "DON'T ASK QUESTIONS!" rule. You all know how three year olds are. "What's this, why is that?" a million times. And imagine a little first grader trying to finish his math homework all by himself with no adult help And he probably really didn't excell in school at all, becasue, and for younger kids especially, parents (or aunts and uncles) are expected to be very involved in their child's education. At least, thats true in the US, I don't know about anywhere else.

So really, it's kind of amazing that nobody noticed how Harry was being treated. Do you think that the Dursleys would let Harry go on class field trips? Do you think that Vernon would come on to school for carrer day? (well, actually, he might have for Dudley). Or let him go to birthday parties or playdates? (assuming he was ever invited to any. Ahh, that's really sad). Oh, and just a wild thought, do you think that maybe Harry's upbringing was what partially caused him to not have any friends? (other than Dudley scaring people away). Who wants to be frineds with the kid who never says a word, who wears baggy clothes and has broken glasses? Wow, that's really, really depressing.

And I'm sure anyone who reads this has discovered that I love parenthesis. Sorry about that.

I think Harry definetly suffered from mental and emotional abuse and all that and theres a possibility of physical as well, a few clues in the books point to this.

Harry Potter Chamber of Secrets US Hardback edition pages 9-10;
Harry paid dearly for his moment of fun. As neither Dudley nor the hedge was in any way hurt, Aunt Petunia knew he hadn't really done magic, but he still had to duck as she aimed a heavy blow at his head with the soapy frying pan.



Harry Potter Prisoner of Akzaban US Hardback edition page 20
"You'll get the stuffing knocked out of you, won't you? roared Uncle Vernon, advancing on Harry with his fist raised. But Harry stood his ground.


and what I think is the most telling evidence
Harry Potter Half-Blood Prince US edition page 45
Harry ran down the stairs two at a time, coming to an abrupt halt several steps from the bottom, as long experience had taught him to remain out of arm's reach of his uncle whenever possible.

but even if Harry was physically abused Rowling probably decided not to go into detail because this is still a childrens book even though it is getting much darker it still remains a childrens book she couldnt very well give detal like in A Child Called It by Dave Pelzer.

Poor Harry

I think Vernon and Petunia's fear of Harry would have grown as he grew out of being a very tiny child into a quiet, somewhat self-sufficient (due to being in the same room as drama queen Dudley) child to whom strange things were happening with increasing frequency. The neighbors would be aware that there was a second child in the house, and so basic care would have been given. The glasses part is very interesting - and I agree with the person who said it would have to be a prescription to fit Harry's eyes. Also he could have developed the need to glasses later and been able to tell Petunia, and his teachers, that things looked funny - so maybe the teachers did help him get the glasses. I know people who need glasses all the time now but didn't start til they were about 9.
And then he would still be old enough to mention when they were getting too small, etc. What's more odd is that his prescription probably changed in seven years! and no one took him for an eye exam. I would have thought Molly Weaseley would have been all over that!!

I'm pretty sure they would of put him somewhere nice than when he grew up. The reason I think that is because the main reason they took basically no care of Harry was to please Dudley, who's always whining about Harry. Surely when he grew up to be spoiled and to speak he didn't want Harry around or got jealous or whatever, so I assume that's when they decjded he was old enough to be under the stairs.

I think they [Petunia and Vernon] might also of been less afraid of Harry as a baby, because I assume they knew that Harry wouldn't start doing magic till he was older. But I'm sure they were afraid anyway!

It's a really sad business if you think over it. I've always wondered who changed baby Harry's diapers? Because he was still a kid, a one year-old! Who fed him? Who dressed him? Petunia had to have done those things, at least till he was 3, poor thing. Then I suppose he had to grow and learn how ...
I don't think the Dursleys could have abused so badly of Harry; I reckon that he gained many, countless bumps, but not in a hard way, because they still feared him. And they, deep inside, had the hope of change him, maybe the blows were to make him change by force.
And, yes, you're right ... what about glasses? And medical exams? Perhaps the Dursleys took him to the doctors, but to a bad hospital, just to say the took him, and maybe the glasses were the cheapest ... but I can't understand why he never changed them. I mean, you grow! I'd to change my glasses, because they were too small, but you still can use them, though, because your face does not change that lot. And I hope Harry wasn't the allergical kind, because living in a closet full of dust and spiders ... And I suppose he never could have caught flues, not being outside, but that takes me to the point that the Dursleys abuse of him and made him doing horrible house holds ... who says they never made him going outside in the middle of winter, with those horrible clothes of Dudley? BUt then I think; it wouldn't have been convenient if they didn't want to take him to a doctor. If they have done it, then his bruises and his skinny body could have drew the doctor's attention and .. that wouldn't have been good.
But what happens with teachers? Didn't they notice, or care, about what happened to a boy who lived with a family like the Dursleys, when his own cousin wore the best, and he wore only old rags, when his own cousin was fat of food, and he was pure bones, when nobody ever showed interest for him, not even when he did something out of normal, like magic? Didn't anybody notice a poor boy's suffering, attending everyday to school with fear and dislike, and resignation, without friends?

And about the place he slept ... I think maybe his cradle was just in the living room, poor thing, I feel so bad for him ... As Petunia didn't care much and she already had a weeping kid to look after, I reckon she didn't care a baby's cry downstairs. And then I suppose they just let him under the stairs, because Harry didn't remember himslef being in another place, in SS.