Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: THE question: What was Sirius' fate?
Veritaserum Forums > Books > Order of the Phoenix > The Department of Mysteries
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Ems
I was so upset when I read she had killed Sirius off. sad.gif Still am! :cry:
But I have a tiny ray of hope that in some way or form Sirius will be able to contact Harry in a future book.
Poor Moony, he is the last of the marauders! (Wormtail doesn't count because he is a traitor!!! :twisted: )
I hope we here more about the marauders in the future books.
Emily :wink:
Mimbletonia
I think that Sirius is dead. I'd love to believe that he's alive somewhere, in a different reality, but I doubt that.

I'm reading the fifth book again right now and I like it a lot better this time. Sure, it's darker and Harry whines a lot, but I would too if I were him. I don't think Rowling lost her touch at all. I just hope that Harry grows up a bit for the 6th book and isn't such a prat.

About the mirror. I think I read on her website that the fact that Harry didn't use it in the fifth book was significant, and that it will be important later. So, maybe that gives us some hope.
aparecium
well they said he fell through the veil [whatever it amy be called] but they didnt say he's dead did they? Maybe he is..after writing the book J.K Rowling did say " I've killed a character". It was sad.. I cried a little [honestly] but..it's not very clear..and like i mentioned before: I don't favour the fifth book like the third. I love the prisoner of azkaban.
Guest
AWWW...I really liked PoA too...actually it's my favorite...anyway, I do think that Sirius and Harry do communicate later on. He may not come back, but I have a strong feeling that Harry and Sirius speak again.
ashleigh07
POA is MY fave book so far too!! smile.gif

Yeah I'm quite sure that Sirius is dead. As I've mentioned in my previous post, I think the veil is like a portal to the world of the dead. Kind of thing. And when you go through it, you can't come back.

BUT yeah I do think Sirius may not come back (like Gandalf in LOTR) but I reckon there will be some way for Harry to communicate with him.

Or at least, I hope anyway...for Harry's sake!!
Ems
Yeah me too. Sirius we miss you! Please make contact! sad.gif I really want to see how Remus will react. Because he didn't really have a chance to in Ootp.
ashleigh07
Yeah fingers crossed eh?!

I'm sure Lupin was just as devastated as Harry, I mean, that was his best friend. Crikey, first James then Sirius!! sad.gif

Lupin's probably gonna take over the father-type figure since he's now the only person Harry can turn to...besides Dumbledore, of course.

Go Lupin!! smile.gif
Wednesday_Adams
You know what would be interesting? If when a person falls through the veil they suddenly inhabit some random person's body, while that random person's soul goes into the world that lies behind the veil. Very interesting.

My own signature makes me cry... isn't that weird?
blink.gif
Weasley Is My King x3
So many people have said this already, but Jo has NOT lost her touch. It was a very emotional book. Harry had just fought off Voldemort for the fourth time single-handedly, and no one believed him. He knows now that Voldemort has the same protection as he does, and can you imagine how that must feel? Knowing that you must either be a murderer or a victim? That's a huge weight to bear for a fifteen year old. Jo needed to add all his feelings, he was angry, sad, and confused all at once. He didn't even know what he wanted anymore. He was getting annoyed with Ron and Hermione always fighting with eachother, and I think in a way he was jealous of them because they have a normal life, they don't have to worry about Voldemort wanted to kill them. No one believed that Voldemort was back, and he was also angry about that. So many things were running through his mind. And then the whole thing with Cho. There were so many things going on, the book wasn't thrown together. That's how it was supposed to be. OotP wasn't my favourite book, GoF was. I'm so anxious to read HBP, I think it will be amazing. Jo hasn't disappointed me yet.

Back on topic....The veil. As much as I want to believe that Sirius is alive and well, just somewhere else beyond sight, I can't. The more I think about it, the more I try and find a way for it to be possible, the more I believe that he really is dead. Some of you have come up with great theories that are believeable. But no, I don't think that Harry will communicate with him through the mirror, he broke it. And Sirius (as far as we know) didn't have his with him. If the spell didn't kill Sirius, then falling through the veil did. It wasn't Avada Kedavra, Harry would have noticed that spell, having seen it in his dreams many times, and many other times face-to-face with Voldemort. But falling through the veil is what killed Sirius, I believe. I'm not 100% sure, only Jo knows the truth about the veil, but I'm 99% sure that he's dead. There's going to be a lot more about Sirius's, shall I say, death in the next two books. I've read OotP many times and I've focused very hard on the Department of Mysteries chapter. And when Harry and Luna hear the voices, I believe it is indeed voices of the dead. Yes, the DEAD. Not of those alive. If they were alive, chances are, they would be able to exit the veil as they entered. Also, I think that the reason Lupin held Harry back was because he knew that Sirius could not be helped, and he didn't want to risk the chance of Harry falling through the veil as Sirius did. Lupin does not know the mysteries of the veil, as do none of us. But, by the end of the series Jo will have uncovered every mystery we are wondering about. Everything will be explained. There will be no more questions. I also think that Lupin will be Harry's next father figure, either him or Mr. Weasley. ((Wow, this post is becoming quite long. But alas, I am almost done!)) Lupin is his father's last best friend left. The last marauder. As someone else said, Peter Pettigrew doesn't count. But I think that him owing his life to Harry will play some sort of role. I don't know what, but I think it will be something. Oh, and I don't remember who, or even if it was on this thread, but people were talking about the silver hand Voldemort granted Wormtail in GoF. That means nothing to Lupin. It matters none. Jo said so herself in an interview. Nor does Mark Evans. Just had to get that out of the way! Hee hee hee. I think I am finally done. Sorry about the ridiculously long post, I had four pages of comments to write about.

But I do have one question that's been irking me. It's a bit off subject, but I'm sure you'll all forgive me.. happy.gif What will happen to Sirius's house, and Kreacher? Anyone have any thoughts?

Yes, and I did cry when Sirius died, and I continue to cry everytime I read OotP again. *cries some more just thinking about it*
ashleigh07
Great stuff there WeasleyIsMyKing, but you know what, everything you've said have actually already been discussed earlier on in this thread!! laugh.gif You've basically mentioned all our points in a nutshell!!

QUOTE
So many people have said this already, but Jo has NOT lost her touch. It was a very emotional book. Harry had just fought off Voldemort for the fourth time single-handedly, and no one believed him. He knows now that Voldemort has the same protection as he does, and can you imagine how that must feel? Knowing that you must either be a murderer or a victim? That's a huge weight to bear for a fifteen year old. Jo needed to add all his feelings, he was angry, sad, and confused all at once. He didn't even know what he wanted anymore. He was getting annoyed with Ron and Hermione always fighting with eachother, and I think in a way he was jealous of them because they have a normal life, they don't have to worry about Voldemort wanted to kill them. No one believed that Voldemort was back, and he was also angry about that. So many things were running through his mind. And then the whole thing with Cho. There were so many things going on


Even though POA is my favorite book of the series thus far I have to agree with you - OotP is every bit the masterpiece as all the rest, possibly the best book considering the amount of stuff that was going on. Her storytelling in the book was nothing short of brilliance, conveying to us the main plots, interweaving the sub-plots and connecting them all together seamlessly. Genius. JKR is a legend!! smile.gif

I've always said that I can't even begin to imagine what it must feel like being Harry. It must royally suck being him eh?! He has definitely gone through more trials, turmoil and loss than your average teenager. Some people say that he was such a prat in OotP with his constant shouting and losing his temper, but *I* think he was perfectly in place to do so. Sadly, no one, even Ron and Hermione will ever be able to fully understand and know what it must like to live his life.

Ok now on to the Veil. Yes the Veil was the thing that killed Sirius, not a curse. least of all Avada Kedavra. Bellatrix performed a hex (possibly a Stunning one) that knocked him off the platform which made him fall into the Veil. *sob*

I have mentioned this in an earlier post; my understanding of the Veil is that it is some sort of portal/gateway to death. Anyone who walks through it (or in Sirius' case, falls through it) is dead. And yes Weasley, those voices that Harry and Luna (Neville too?) heard were from the "other side", if you get what I mean. That's why Lupin stopped Harry from going after Sirius. I reckon he knew perfectly well what that Veil was and what was the predicament for someone who goes through it. And that's why he said to Harry that Sirius was gone and that there was nothing that could be done.

So Sirius is DEFINITELY dead. *My* theory is that (well I hope, anyway) Harry will learn more of this "Land of the Dead" beyond the Veil in the next book and learn of a way to communicate with Sirius. The most obvious way would be using the mirror, but as many have said it's broken, but hey, maybe it could be fixed? Well if the mirror is unfixable, then it'll be some other medium. But yeah, I really do hope this is not the last we've heard from Sirius and that Harry will get to speak to him again, and hopefully get some closure.

I totally think Lupin will "take over" Sirius' role and be more like a father-figure to Harry from now on. smile.gif After all, he is the closest to family now, being the last of the Marauders and one of James' best friends.

Yeah I *do* have a sneaking suspicion that Pettigrew owing Harry his life will come to play by the end of the series. I reckon he would sacrifice himself at the end before Voldemort and Harry will be spared. But then again...I have a weird hunch that JKR might just kill off Harry... unsure.gif Anything is possible with that woman!!

Grimmauld Place will continue to be headquarters for the Order and Kreacher can't possibly be set free coz he knows too much.

Kreacher
I think that Sirius is really dead. I also think that maybe Harry will be able to contact him again to get some closure about his death. Maybe he'll come across something sort of like the Mirror of Erised. But as sad as it was when Sirius died, and as much as I wish he could come back, I really don't think it'll happen.
realveela
hi everybody well me and my mom think that sirus didn't really die of if he did he is going to come back somehow so don't fret guy he can't be gone he was kinda a main charactor so he can't be totally gone mabye he is hiding ph34r.gif
brkn promises x
i really liked sirius, but i think he is dead. but i think i remeber somewhere that the mirror is important, or that sirius will help harry in some way. i wonder... huh.gif
ashleigh07
That's what we've been discussing earlier on in this thread.

Sad to say, I'm very sure Sirius is *sob* dead, doubt JKR will make him do a Gandalf. BUT like I said, we've been discussing previously the possibility of the mirror OR some other medium (if the mirror is unfixable) as a communication device that will allow Harry to contact Sirius beyong the Veil.

I reckon the Veil is some kinda portal/gateway to the land of the dead, and that Harry will learn how to use *communication device* to get in touch with Sirius in the next book. Well that's what I hope anyways. I just feel Harry needs some closure...
xsiriusxdenialx
I believe ashleigh07 has a point. I really do not want to believe Sirius is dead. Honestly, I still have a hard time believeing he's dead now because how could someone kill off such a great character? I don't know, but I suppose we'll find out.

If Sirius really is dead (which I'm starting to think he is unsure.gif), Harry will probably find someway to contact him...and then there's what Luna said at the end of Book 5. She said that it wasn't like they'll never see the people behind the veil again...they're just lurking out of sight. I really hope so...and like ashleigh07 said...I think we ALL need an explanation as to why Sirius died (if he did...*sirius denial still*).
SeyƩne
I do not think Sirius is dead. Whoever said that Bellatrix had just stunned him was right. It was just a stunning spell. And if the DoM has a veil in it that kills people who fall through, dont you think it would be much better guarded than it was?

I totally believe that Sirius is alive. We just dont know where he is yet, though I'm postive JK will hint at it in HBP, like she hints at everything else. Matter of fact, come to think of it, the answer might lie on her site itself, though I havent seen any other clues to the book on the web.

Me, I'm in Sirius-Denile, like most people. I really liked Padfoot and would be overjoyed if he came back. After reading OotP, I wrote a 109 page fanfic about everything Harry went through, sort of my own little 6th book. In it, Harry is mortified about his losing Sirius and the only thing for him to do is give up. However, I will NOT lose hope and make Harry die. Thats just anti-climactical. Sirius has to come back and give Harry a sense of belonging, or peace, inner strength....He was a sorce of joy in Harry's life, and I do not think JK would take that away without filling the void once again.
ashleigh07
QUOTE
I do not think Sirius is dead. Whoever said that Bellatrix had just stunned him was right. It was just a stunning spell. And if the DoM has a veil in it that kills people who fall through, dont you think it would be much better guarded than it was?


No I reckon Sirius *is* dead but this won't be the last time we'll be hearing from him. Yes Bellatrix stunned him but it was the Veil that killed him.

What we've been discussing here is the possibility of the Veil being a portal/gateway to death. That's why Lupin stopped Harry from getting to Sirius. All Harry needed to do was walk through the Veil and he'd meet the same fate as Sirius.

The Unspeakabales were meant to be the only wizards and witches allowed to be in the DoM, not the magical public, and certainly not a bunch of 15 year olds!! We saw how many weird gadgets and gizmos there are in the DoM, I don't see it as that unbelievable that there is a doorway to death located there.

Sirius not dead but lurking somewhere hidden does not make sense because JKR said that she was going to be killing off a character in OotP. And I remember there was an interview somewhere where she spoke of killing off Sirius and being very upset about it.
prongs25
the one thing that bugs me is that lestrange didn't use the Avada Kadavra to kill Sirius. (Harry would have known and would have imediatly registered Sirius's death.) and he does hear noises on the other side, and i don't think dead people talk. maybe the veil is like a prison, or the death penalty. maybe your body separated from soul, and waits to be restored.

and the idea of harry using his anger to produce more powerful spells is a good idea. maybe JKR just needs Sirius's "death" to give harry more power. maybe once voldemort is gone, Sirius will come back, harry needing no more anger to fuel his spells.

god, i hope so. please JKR, bring him back!
ashleigh07
QUOTE
the one thing that bugs me is that lestrange didn't use the Avada Kadavra to kill Sirius. (Harry would have known and would have imediatly registered Sirius's death.) and he does hear noises on the other side, and i don't think dead people talk. maybe the veil is like a prison, or the death penalty. maybe your body separated from soul, and waits to be restored.


Hmmm that's a pretty good point there, prongs25!! Never thought of it that way, good one there mate!!

Yeah it would have been heaps easier on Harry (and for us even) if Bellatrix had usen Avada Kedavra...then we'd know for sure that he was dead.

But well, that's JKR for you!! It's obvious then, that there is more to this!!

Ooooh I can't wait for HBP!!
Naz
i think that it was sirius's time to die. it was destiny! i didnt want him to though, but jk put it there to show harry that he doesnt know death. what i mean is, he thought he knew what death meant when his parents died. but the reality is that no one can know death.
ashleigh07
Good point there, dansgurl01.

A lot of people have said that they can't believe JKR could kill off Sirius and that she shouldn't have and all that.

I keep saying, JKR herself said in an interview that she was very upset to have to kill him off, that she actually cried when she wrote that chapter. But obviously, she HAD to kill him. There definitely is a reason behind this, which we have yet to find out, which I'm SURE she will reveal to us when she sees fit.

She knows best after all eh?!

I do not think it was Sirius' time to go, I felt that he still had some things to "tie up". I felt bad that he couldn't spend more time with Harry. I felt bad that he had to leave the world with the entire magical community thinking he was a crazed murderer.

But I do agree with you dansgurl01, that the most likely reason was because Harry was to learn the meaning and true pain of death. Of course, it's so incredibly unfair for Harry to have to lose the closest thing he had to family, especially since he's experienced so much loss at such a young age.

As I said, I'm sure JKR has her reasons which she will reveal to us...when the time is right....
Naz
i just thought of something...i dont know if it is possible or ont, but here it goes: why dont they use the time turner to get back sirius?
ashleigh07
Hmm.

Yeah that's a good one dansgurl01, and I believe it is possible, BUT Hermione returned the Time Turner to McGonnagal at the end of their 3rd year. And I remember her mentioning that Time Turners are really exclusive objects that can't be gotten easily...McGonnagal had to write all kinds of letters to the Ministry assuring them that Hermione was only going to be using it for classes.

I know a lot of fans out there are really hoping that JKR will bring him back to life by revealing that he was never really dead or allowing him to return as a ghost. I think those of youse who are hoping this, need to get over it and move on.

Now don't get me wrong, I love Sirius to bits and was devastated when he fell through the Veil. I just think y'all should trust that JKR knows best (she did create this entire magical world, after all rolleyes.gif ) and belive that she has a reason for everything. And I do strongly believe that Sirius' death was for a reason and holds a lot of significance.

One of them I think was mentioned a little earlier, and that is for Harry to really learn and know what it feels like to experience death. Yeah he's gone through a lot of loss, which is totally unfair as it is, but hey, since when is life fair?

His parents died, but that wasn't learning about death coz he was still a baby and never knew his parents. When Cedric died, yeah he felt some guilt about it but he was never close to Cedric, so that wouldn't have made much of an impact.

But Sirius...Sirius was the closest to family he ever had. He was starting to see Sirius as a father figure, a brother, a best friend. And to take that away from him... sad.gif

So I'm pretty sure Sirius is dead. Like I said, even JKR was interviewed about having to kill off his character. But as we've been discussing in this thread, I'm really hoping that it is not the last we'll hear from him. I really hope that Harry will somehow learn to contact Sirius beyond the Veil. Now this doesn't mean Sirius is coming back to life, mind... When I say I reckon we'll hear from Sirius again in the next book, what I mean is Harry will be able to speak to Sirius who is now beyond that Veil which I'm guessing is some portal to death.

Well that's my two cents anyway. tongue.gif
Naz
QUOTE
BUT Hermione returned the Time Turner to McGonnagal at the end of their 3rd year. And I remember her mentioning that Time Turners are really exclusive objects that can't be gotten easily...McGonnagal had to write all kinds of letters to the Ministry assuring them that Hermione was only going to be using it for classes.



so the ministry has the time turner...but arent they going to join dumbledores side now? now that they know voldemort is back? if dumbledore asked for it, surley they would give it to him.
ashleigh07
Yeah I suppose so...but like I said, I really don't think JKR will bring Sirius back from the dead. I think it's Sirius' fate, that was his role in the series. It's sad I know, but yeah, that's what I think.

Oh but who knows? This is JKR we're talking about!! tongue.gif
Naz
lol exactly. i dont think that sirius is going to come back either...but i am just trying to expand my thinking! lol
Louise
Can I share something with you guys that occured to me last night while I was enjoying my nice long soak in a lovely hot bubble bath and reading OotP again......

I know this is going to sound extreme, but if you bear with me, I'll provide my reasons for my thoughts so here goes....

I think that possibly Sirius has become a Dementor.

There's a few reasons for it -

1. In PoA, Lupin describes Dementors in quite a lot of detail. We know that people haven't seen their faces - only those who have suffered the Dementors Kiss, and they're not fit to talk about it. We know that they have rotten flesh and that they stink like something died. Well, maybe something did.... wink.gif

2. Everyone behaved very strangely about Sirius' 'death'. Lupin didn't finish what he was going to say....'He can't come back, Harry because he's d......'......Harry cut him off. We're all assuming that he was going to say 'died', but he could equally have said, 'demented'? And what about Nick's reaction? He said that Sirius, '[.....] would have....gone on.' What's that supposed to mean? Gone on where? Why can't he come back? Why does no-one really seem to know what's happened? Although I do think that Lupin knew a bit more than he was letting on, but anyway....

3. Lupin, in PoA said something that I found very interesting. 'They don't feel things like normal humans do.' We all know how carefully JKR chooses her words, so..'normal humans'? So Dementors are not normal humans then? Ergo, something has happened to them. Are they the shadows of beings left behind after someone passes through The Veil?

4. In a lot of ways, Sirius' death seemed so pointless and cruel, especially after everything the guy had gone through. But maybe JKR found it a bit easier to do because what DD effectively did that night when he authorised Hermione to use the Time Turner was to buy Sirius and Harry two years together that they might not necessarily have had. Maybe it was always Sirius' destiny to have the Dementors Kiss, but DD effectively 'delayed' it for a while. JKR found it easier to kill him off because his death will mean something....so what will it mean? How can Sirius be of use to the Order now?

5. We don't actually know what happens to someone after they've had the Dementors Kiss. We've never seen them, they've never been described. So what if Dementors themselves are people who have had their souls sucked? Wouldn't that make sense? Condemned for eternity, a bit like the Pirates in POTC, to constantly crave what they can never have again? Human feelings, emotions....a soul....

Maybe the veil is a more mechanical means of separating body from soul - they were studying the mechanisms of the Dementors Kiss, how it works, what happens to the soul afterwards. But Sirius was alive when he went through it, he still had his soul....

Throughout the books, I think it's clear that JKR has been arranging the pieces on the chessboard for the final battle, setting up 'rejects' from each group:-

Lupin - The werewolves and other dark creatures.
Dobby - The House Elves
Firenze - The Centaurs
The Goblins - (not specific yet, but maybe in the next book - I'm convinced that there will be a goblin rebellion.)
Grawp - The giants.

All these people were rejects from their own kind....something about them was different.

So what would be a huge advantage to the Order? If someone became a Dementor but still retained some touch of their humanity? Some part that could be reached....someone that could pull the Dementors onto DD's side...someone who's death is important to the upcoming books....someone like Sirius.

What do you reckon?

(Just don't call me nuts.....tell me something I don't know... tongue.gif )

kreacher_the_house_elf
Sirius a dementor... you're nuts... No not really it seems a really good viable idea. Harry has such a connection with the whole dementor and resisting them idea which made up a lot of the emotional plot in PoA.

There has to be something behind the veil. Perhaps they are the spirits of people who became dementors. I still think that the veil is some sort of purgatory.. But this is about Sirius. It has excellent merits. I wouldn't be too surprised...
ashleigh07
mellow.gif huh.gif blink.gif

You're a nutter Dana!! Ooopss wasn't supposed to say that...couldn't help myself!! tongue.gif

Ok ok jokes aside...having read through your lengthy post, your theories *do* seem valid and make sense, BUT I still doubt that Sirius has become a dementor. Sorry mate...

QUOTE
1. In PoA, Lupin describes Dementors in quite a lot of detail. We know that people haven't seen their faces - only those who have suffered the Dementors Kiss, and they're not fit to talk about it.


Actually Dana, we *have* been told how their faces look like. Harry has seen them. This is towards the end of PoA when he conjures that really powerful Patronus.

QUOTE
He could feel them watching him, hear their rattling breath like an evil wind around him.  The nearest Dementor seemed to be considering him  Then it raised both its rotting hands - and lowered its hood.
Where there should have been eyes, there was only, thin, grey, scabbed skin, stretched blankly over empty sockets.  But there was a mouth...a gaping, shapeless hole, sucking the air with the sound of a death-rattle.


We also catch a glimpse of a Dementor's face in the movie. There is a close-up of one, if you remember, sucking Harry's soul before he falls off his broom and plunges downwards. I reckon it was that description above that Cuaron used to create that Dementor's face.

QUOTE
2. Everyone behaved very strangely about Sirius' 'death'. Why can't he come back? Why does no-one really seem to know what's happened? Although I do think that Lupin knew a bit more than he was letting on


It is a fair point that we can't really tell for sure when Lupin stopped at "d..." he was going to say "dead". I *do* agree that Lupin definitely knows more that he's letting on, but I reckon at that point in time, it was just too painful for he himself to say, and also he didn't think Harry was ready to hear it. I mean, he was still in shock and all, y'know. As for Nearly Headless Nick, I think it's the same thing. I guess coming back as ghosts could be trickier than it seems, and perhaps he was explaining it to Harry the simplest way he knew how.

QUOTE
3. So Dementors are not normal humans then? Ergo, something has happened to them. Are they the shadows of beings left behind after someone passes through The Veil?


This is a VERY interesting point. I never thought to think any more about that "normal human beings" quote till you mentioned it. Well spotted, mate!! wink.gif I have wondered what Dementors are exactly. But I always waved it aside figuring they're just one of the many "types" of magical beings there are in JKR's world. But yeah they could very well be shadows of beings left behind. Like maybe the "righteous" can return as ghosts, but the "unworthy" have a less pleasant fate awaiting them, that is they have to return as Dementors.

QUOTE
4. Sirius' death seemed so pointless and cruel, especially after everything the guy had gone through.  what DD effectively did that night when he authorised Hermione to use the Time Turner was to buy Sirius and Harry two years together that they might not necessarily have had. Maybe it was always Sirius' destiny to have the Dementors Kiss, but DD effectively 'delayed' it for a while. JKR found it easier to kill him off because his death will mean something....so what will it mean? How can Sirius be of use to the Order now?


Well life isn't fair is it? Look at Harry, I'd never even dream of living a day in his shoes, after all he's been through, and will likely go through. I liked the way you put it, about buying Harry time with his godfather which he may not have necessarily had. Such a warm comforting feeling knowing Harry had been given that chance to know family... happy.gif I've said before that I felt Sirius' destiny was to die...as cruel as it sounds. I felt that JKR wanted Harry to learn the true meaning of death; the mourning after and finally reaching the acceptance of what has happened. Yes he had experienced death before, but he never knew his parents, he was only a baby, and he was never close to Cedric to truly feel the pain of having lost someone. But Sirius, I think there was a quote from DD in OotP, saying that Harry had begun to see Sirius as a brother, even a father-figure. And being the closest to family he ever had, taking that away from him would crush him. As to what Sirius' death will mean, well that's why I'm really looking forward to reading HBP. I really believe that this is not the last we've heard from Sirius and that Harry will find some way to contact him beyond the Veil. I just feel there are some loose ends needed to be tied, Harry (and us) need some closure behind his death.

QUOTE
5. We don't actually know what happens to someone after they've had the Dementors Kiss. We've never seen them, they've never been described. So what if Dementors themselves are people who have had their souls sucked? Condemned for eternity, to constantly crave what they can never have again?


Totally possible. As I said earlier, I've always wondered what Dementors are exactly. They seem a lot like creatures, but there's some part of them that seems almost human too. I'm sure we'll be enlightened a little more about them in future books since we know that Voldemort has gotten them to rally with him.

QUOTE
Throughout the books, I think it's clear that JKR has been arranging the pieces on the chessboard for the final battle, setting up 'rejects' from each group.  If someone became a Dementor but still retained some touch of their humanity? Some part that could be reached....someone that could pull the Dementors onto DD's side...someone who's death is important to the upcoming books....someone like Sirius.


Yes I *have* noticed what JKR did, having a representative from each minority to lead the final battle, and I think it's really brilliant. And assuming your theory that Sirius has become a Dementor, it would make perfect sense because, he'd kinda be a half-Dementor and that would be his role in the Order, to play spy and lure the Dementors over to the other side.

However, I still really doubt that Sirius has become a Dementor. I guess the reason behind it is, I've never liked Dementors, as Lupin said, "they're among the foulest creatures that have walked this earth". I think they're absolutely awful!! I'd feel really devastated if that's the fate that has come to rest on Sirius, he doesn't deserve that. Even if he's just a half-Dementor. Reminds me a lot of Resident Evil 2, if you've seen the movie. But if really, in the big picture, that is what it takes to aid the final battle, then I guess it's for the better.

Oh well, as I've always said, JKR thrives in being unpredictable so I never put anything past her. Your theories are valid Dana, and they could very well be what is to come. All we can do is speculate for now...

Man, that was long!! Haven't posted such a long post in ages!! laugh.gif


Naz
dont worry dana, i dont think that you are nuts!! actually your theory is very believable. i mean, maybe DD knew that something like this would happen? maybe he thought that if sirius was a "dementer" maybe he would be able to get other dementers to be on the orders side??
Louise
Phew!!! Aw, you guys!!! I was really afraid that everyone would think that I'd finally completely lost it!! (All that head-banging on your keyboard'll give ya some queer ideas, you know... tongue.gif )

I totally take on board everything you guys have said and I agree that there are...er...slight holes in the overall thing, but then JKR thrives on unpredicatability and after the idea occured to me, everything seemed to slip into place and sound at least reasonable, but there are some areas that don't quite fit. I appreciate that, and I guess you're right, Ash, about the fact that we have seen the Dementors' faces....I'd forgotten about that bit.

But even so, the fleshless appearance, the hollow eye sockets, thin scabbed skin, the smell of rotting flesh...all that could kind of fit with them being dead, cursed people. I don't want to get too graphic here, with this being a family site and all, but as I think everyone knows now I'm studying Forensics at university so I've seen my fair share of crime photographs and videos and sometimes, when there is advanced decomposition, the mouth does take on a very open, 'pulled back' kind of expression that could fit very well with the appearance of the Dementors' mouths as described by JKR.

The other thing I didn't like about the theory was the fact that I didn't really like the idea of Sirius becoming one of the 'foulest things to walk the earth'.....I agree with you there too, Ash. But I kind of allowed for that in saying that Sirius was alive at the time he passed through the Veil, so he wouldn't be exactly the same as a tradtional Dementor. More of a half, pseudo-dementor. Perhaps he will have the ability, after the war, to 'free' the dementors from their torment, releasing their lost souls that they might move on freely to the afterlife so there is still the possibility that Sirius will move on to be with Lily and James again, once his purpose has been fulfilled, you know? There is no reuniting a body with its soul once they have been separated which is why he can never come back...the best that can be hoped for is that one day, Sirius' soul will find release. Because I agree, too, that Sirius was never meant to live very long. I've said before how I think of him as one of those really bright stars....they burn too bright to be able to last very long...some people are just not meant to be here for long either....they have some other purpose.

But I also agree that life isn't fair and JKR has said many times how strongly she feels about death being arbitrary and how much she would like to bring that aspect into her books. That being said though, I don't think it's her place to teach life-morals to her readers and I don't think she's that arrogant to believe that's what she's doing, which is the reason why I really believe that there was purpose to her introducing the mirror....some way that Harry, at least, could get some kind of closure by being able to say goodbye. After all, death may very be arbitrary, but in reality, people usually have a graveside to visit, photographs and videos to remember their loved one by....Harry has none of that. How are you supposed to deal with the mechanics and practicalities of grief when there is not even a support network in place?

But if death wasn't really death in our definition.....then......maybe....just maybe.... wink.gif
Bandoth
I have to disagree on the "you can't reunite souls with bodies" thing. Voldy did it didn't he? But he somehow bound his soul to the physical plane now didn't he? So there are ways of bringing souls back to their bodies but the soul has to be here already. I do agree that death can mean something else. It is one of the least described words in the dictionary in my oppinion because those who have died can't tell us what it's like.
Fergy71
I dn't know if Sirius is dead or not, but I know that JKRowling is gonna do something big bout it: maybe she really killed Sirius n he'll never came back or maybe she made him survive n he'll have a happy ending with harry or god knows who. But I think JKR didn't had to kill him, I could harly hold my tears why I was reading...*sigh*
Ryanve
JKR has told everyone that sirius death has some meaning in the next books. My first thought of why she "killed" sirius was to perhaps stop the search for him because they were of course in the minitry of magic, but then this thoery seemed plain so ive abandoned it. I do however think Dana might have a point, i was thinking how do Dementors get made? do two of them get married and make a baby dementor? i dont think they do. Dana might have a fair point im certainly looking at it as being plausible, that they are created from the lifeless body of one that has just been kissed, and also one more thing does anyone have any opinions one what happened to the imposter moody or Mr crouch's son? he got kissed but where did he go? i was thinking perhaps that when voldemort came back he could tell the dementor that kissed him to give him his soul back and he would be fixed again, perhaps this would explain the reason the dementor rushed in their and kissed him without being told to.
lolo2008
I am almost positive that Sirius is dead (because it really upset JKR to kill him off) but I am also positive that we will be hearing more from him. I think that the Veil is the gateway between life and death, but there must be someway the mirror is going to come in handy or that Harry will get in contact with him.

QUOTE
"Yes it was rather horrible," said Luna conversationally. "I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?"
"Er--isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly.
She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?"
"You mean..."
"In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them."
They looked at each other. Luna was smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna beleived so many extraordinary things...yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too....


I found this quote to be pertaining greatly to this subject and I belive it forshadows a reunition with Sirius.
Missing_Snuffles
I am just hoping that it will turn out somewhat like a cartoon I read somewhere.(I think it may have been on Veritaserum actually,if this is the site that holds a comic contest)
Lupin hides Sirius in a rubbish bin and makes sure he doesnt come back until book 6 or 7.

Ooh! More thought! blink.gif In book 6, someone is going to be killed off, right? Well,sadly,what if Sirius is alive in some rubbish bin and he gets found and killed? Just a silly thought...highly impossible.
MistressofMagic
I believe Sirius isn't going to come back... *a thousand Sirius fans attack her* He had his place in the books, and he still does. Harry needs to get over the fact of Sirius dying to accomplish his goals through the book, so Sirius will never leave us...
*woah I'm sounding like some grown up or something blink.gif *

I read that comic! Yep, it's here on Veritaserum! Even though I like the 1st place 1 better... ish Ron looks cyoote! tongue.gif
Missing_Snuffles
QUOTE
I think that possibly Sirius has become a Dementor.


I had been thinking about this Dana.I even went to the extremety of going through the whole 'D' section of the dictionary looking for other possible words before I realized that is was over 20 years old and would be no help.

But Dumbledore says repeatedly in the second to last chapter that it is his fault the Sirius died. I don't think that Dumbledore would right out lie to Harry about the death of his god-father.Except that maybe it was another thing like Dumbledore waiting so long to tell him about why Voldemort wanted to kill him.Maybe he is telling him this as a comfort to what the truth is,if it does turn out to be something like you suggested.

And P.S. to Dana,
Sorry about being cheeky.We got off on the wrong foot and I would like to apologize. unsure.gif
Louise
Aw, that's okay...don't worry about it... wink.gif I admit I got a bit over-defensive...I'm not usually so snappish, but I had my reasons at the time that were nothing to do with you personally, more to do with issues I've dealt with on the forums before.... smile.gif

Anywho, water under the bridge, eh? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
But Dumbledore says repeatedly in the second to last chapter that it is his fault the Sirius died. I don't think that Dumbledore would right out lie to Harry about the death of his god-father.Except that maybe it was another thing like Dumbledore waiting so long to tell him about why Voldemort wanted to kill him.Maybe he is telling him this as a comfort to what the truth is,if it does turn out to be something like you suggested.


Yes, you're right about Dumbledore saying those things, but I suppose you could put that down to him being slightly condescending to Harry in presuming that to tell him the whole truth might either have been considered too much for Harry to deal with at the time or that he wouldn't understand anyway. Perhaps Dumbledore was trying to explain it to Harry in some way that made sense - putting the situation into a context that Harry could understand and deal with. To all intents and purposes Sirius is dead, that's how Harry must think of him. Death is final and there is nothing that can be done to change it.

If Sirius has become a Dementor, then that is a parallel situation - there is no coming back, it can't be changed; the Sirius he knew is gone forever.

That's not to say that communication isn't possible though, maybe that's what the mirror might be used for. I mentioned some theories back in the summer about that in the 'Mirror Sirius gave to Harry' thread in the book 6 & 7 discussion forum....I thought that maybe the mirror has captured 'essences' of Sirius and James that might act as like a recorder that can play back scenarios or conversations that might have taken place between the two whilst they were at Hogwarts. That would still allow for us as readers to view new Marauder scenes whist also serving as a kind of 'communication tool' for Harry, do you know what I mean?

That last bit was slightly off topic, perhaps, but I just wanted to leave a small shred of light in what was otherwise a pretty dark and hopeless post!! tongue.gif

Remus Lupin
J.K.Rowling KILLED Sirius
The Rising Darkness
Well, here is what I think. Do you guys remember how 'powerful' James Potter and Sirius Black were? Professor McGonagall herself said that they were the two brightest students in the school. And everyone says that Harry is as bright, and didn't Voldemort give Harry some of his powers? And combined with James's brightness and Voldemorts power...shouldn't Harry become one of the most powerful wizards, maybe even stronger than Dumbledore? And if any of you are familiar with Star Wars, the main character Anakin became more powerful because of the hate he had inside of him, and didn't Neo from the Matrix become more powerful when he knew what he had to do? And Harry still doesn't know what he is exactly meant to do. Just a thought....

As to Sirius's fate....I don't belive he is dead. JKR might have said he is so that non of the story would be revealed, and i believe she would 'deceive us' about that information because she knows in the end we will appreciate it....so I don't think he'll come back, but I don't think he is dead....if that makes sense
ilikecheese
ive got a question how do some ppl that are dead become the paintings on the walls that still act as if they are still there?

because if that is still possible i would think that he may become a painting or a ghost to teach DADA
redbutterfly
hi,

ive been here for quite some time and i really want to have a lot of friends here. laugh.gif and i really want to be a part of your forum. thanks

MOD EDIT : Firstly welcome to the forums!! Please take the time to read the rules before posting. There is an introduction thread in the Lounge section to introduce yourself. Only post if you have something to say that is relevant to the topic.
redbutterfly
I don't think sirius is dead. he may show up at book 7 or at the last chapter of book 6. i hope so..... laugh.gif

MOD EDIT : No double posts. Please read the rules.
SiriusLupin
Unfortunately, I believe Sirius is dead, but I do think that Harry will communicate with Sirius via a portrait. A portrait, I believe, is a reflection of a person's emotional state, knowledge, and personality at the moment when the portrait is made. For example, if Dumbledore had a portrait made when he was 5 he would not act like the Albus that we all know and love; he would act like the 5 year-old version of himself in the portrait.

I think we are going to be seeing a much meaner, tougher Harry in the last two books and will be far more powerful, partially because of Sirius's death.
The Rising Darkness
I agree with SiriusLupin. I think we have only seen a fraction of Harry's power, and that now Sirius is dead, it will urge him to do excellent. Just like in Star Wars Episode 2 (for all those familiar with this reference) when Anakin's mom was killed, he desired more power to stop it from ever happening again, and as those who follow that series all know, he got more of it than anyone imagined.
Suzi
The way I interpretated the "dying" of Sirius was just that. Him being my favorite character from the books, I decided I was going to go a long with a few of my close friends and "boycott" the Harry Potter books... but I didn't, I've read the fifth book at least eight times after the first which was a truely dissapointing experience for me. I as slightly dissapointed in how Winey Harry had become, but eventually, I realized that maybe there is a reason behind it - even though it's slightly annoying. Sirius fell through the veil of the dead, I beleive. It was afterall a veil in "The Death Room" in the department of mysteries. I belive that the veil represents a kind of... Purgetory(sp?) persay.. As (Nearly Headless) Nick had said, a Witch or Wizard decides weather or not they're going go become a ghost by "rooting" their spirits to the earth. I beleive that the Portriats just show the person as they were. Pictures do not get older, nor do they die. It did seem though, that there were no portriats anywhere of Sirius so I do not beleive that Harry will be able to contact him that way, and Sirius did not bring his mirror through the veil when he died - and Harry smashed his so-- it doesn't seem like they would be able to talk that way. But, there is always the Muarders Map. Rember in Third year, when The writing from Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs showed up.. Maybe that still had a direct mental link to the group - maybe.. If so, maybe Harry would get to talk to Sirius that way -- and Maybe James too. I'm not sure, just a randomly odd though.

I'm sorry if this post made no sense whatsoever, it's just how my brain works. ;D Thanks for reading.
SiriusLupin
I love the idea of the Marauder's map being able to Communicate with Sirius. ohmy.gif

I think it makes a lot of sense. Sirius maybe jcould interact with Harry onc e Harry states his name.

I think that it would be just like JK to introduce such an important plot point as being just a "piece of parchment that insults the holder" as Luping so eloquently put it. I think that if you state your name the paper may communicate with you in addition to being a map. biggrin.gif

Great thinking

cool.gif You are one hot tamale
chaseme
i think (not really, jsut a possibility) that sirius is still alive.... but faked his death.... maybe is and always has been loyal to voldemort.... and he had tricked everyone and he really is a spy....

not a really great thing to happen.. but it would certianly be a huge twist to the plot
Padma Patil
I've always thought that Sirius is still alive and that he is just trapped somewhere behind the veil.
It is almost a given that he will be mentioned in later books, however, I do not think he will be coming back.

I do like the idea of Sirius being able to talk to Harry through the Mauraders Map. That would be really neat. smile.gif

I do think that Harry will become stronger and a better wizard because of this though.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.