QUOTE

Only one couple was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: He was laughing at her. \"Come on, you can do better than that!\" he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely in his chest The laughter had  not quite died form his face, but his eyes widened in shock. Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so.  He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore turned to the dais too. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall.  His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch... And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place.

This awful, awful, awful, purely awful quote from the book (which yes, I typed up *sigh*) gives us at least two years to contemplate the fate of Sirius. The quotes "as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch" and "as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place" will leave Harry Potter fans guessing as to what is behind the veil, and what Sirius' fate is for quite some time.

What is behind the veil, and what will happen to Sirius? Although it's for J.K. Rowling to decide, it's our job to guess!

Well I'm going to be predictable and say that I think he's still alive. However I don't think he'll be coming back. I also think that the mirror he gave Harry is connected to it in some way.

But I also had another thought. What if JKR only made Sirius fall through to make Harry really mad? If it had been Ron or Hermione it would have shocked him but Sirius was sort of like a substitute father for him so it would be like losing his father again but actually being able to feel the pain and hatred to all things evil. So I think in book 6 we will see more of Harry trying to become more powerful and to learn to put his anger into spells like Avada Kedavra but not those exact ones. Anyway I'll stop now before my head explodes with all this thinking.

Uh-oh.....I sense some heinously dumb plot arising........what if this is going to be like Star Wars? (Not that I think the Star Wars plot is dumb) "Don't fall to the dark side Harry......" That would so fit right in with Triad's theory.

It's really hard to keep from doing confusing and weird plots when everyone likes your work. I've tried it, and something dumb and over-plotted comes up. That's what I felt coming from her while I was reading the fifth book. To me, it wasn't even Harry Potter anymore. It was like she was making stuff up so that she could get the book out on time. I was really let-down.

While some may have thought that the fifth book did not live up to the standard set by the previous four, I loved every second of it (minus page 805)

I think that critics everywhere were way too harsh when rating it, because they wanted to be different, and they wanted to say that Harry Potter was bad...but it ended up so that they were all alike saying that "Rowling has lost her touch," "the story lacks meaning," etc.

Rowling's writing style is bound to change as she progresses with her books. Not only does she gain more writing experience, but the plot line will be no where near as light as Sorcerer's Stone; the books are obviously getting darker. And getting darker means a change in writing style.

I have no clue what happened to Sirius, or what really is behind the veil. Too many people think that Harry can just walk behind the veil, and go "Hey, Sirius, Mom, and Dad! Long time no see!" But Rowling doesn't tend to do things that are expected...

I don't think that people would expect Harry to see his parents behind there since they didn't fall through. As for book 5, I started reading it again a couple months ago and still haven't finished because it's kind of boring. It's mainly Harry feeling victimised and angry. It's really annoying. Sure her writings going to change but did it have to change that much? I agree with Mahwish that she just threw things in to finish the book.

Surely if siruis was meant to come back somehow through the veil then JKR would not of been so upset by killing off a character. Plus there is the chance of him being able to talk through the mirror but again why would JKR be so upset.
However Harry heard whispering so maybe these people went through the veil alive and are therefore alive on the other side. The mirror that went in with sirius could be a communication link?
So therefore sirius went in the veil dead, so is dead on the other side of the veil and will never speak to anyone again, hench JKR emotion when casting off the character.

Hey guys i was reading this topic then it remided me that in a chat Q and A one of the things she said was that siruis's death is really important for the next 2 books so that could mean where it happened the vail harrys anger about it anything revolving siruis death

That sounds cool. But I really want him to come back but if she said that then there's no hope. Poor Sirius, what will Harry do without you. I know the answer to that. He's going to work hard, become better than Hermione and kick Voldy's pale rear end.

Sorry that was me. Somehow I got logged out.

Me and my friends were talking about this... As far as we know, Bellatrix used a stunning spell on Sirius, not avada kedavra.... so my thought is that sirius is alive behind the veil, and stuck there....?

[quote]Me and my friends were talking about this... As far as we know, Bellatrix used a stunning spell on Sirius, not avada kedavra.... so my thought is that sirius is alive behind the veil, and stuck there....?[/quote]

I think this could be right.He can not be death he just felt behing the veil..

i dont think that sirius is alive, but i do think that harry might manage to somehow talk to him.

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I don't think that people would expect Harry to see his parents behind there since they didn't fall through.  As for book 5, I started reading it again a couple months ago and still haven't finished because it's kind of boring.  It's mainly Harry feeling victimised and angry.  It's really annoying.  Sure her writings going to change but did it have to change that much?  I agree with Mahwish that she just threw things in to finish the book.

[color=violet][/color] And you call yourself a fan? Read deep and see beyond the surface. Is it really Harry feeling those angry, victimized feelings or are they those of You-Know-Who? JKR's writing has so much depth that there is always a story inside the story. Enjoy each book for the special qualities and secrets that it reveals.

As for Sirius, He is undeniably dead. However, we have already seen ways of the dead communicating with the living. Look for Sirius to still provide Harry with guidance.

QUOTE

QUOTE I don't think that people would expect Harry to see his parents behind there since they didn't fall through.  As for book 5, I started reading it again a couple months ago and still haven't finished because it's kind of boring.  It's mainly Harry feeling victimised and angry.  It's really annoying.  Sure her writings going to change but did it have to change that much?  I agree with Mahwish that she just threw things in to finish the book. [color=violet][/color] And you call yourself a fan? Read deep and see beyond the surface. Is it really Harry feeling those angry, victimized feelings or are they those of You-Know-Who? JKR's writing has so much depth that there is always a story inside the story. Enjoy each book for the special qualities and secrets that it reveals. As for Sirius, He is undeniably dead. However, we have already seen ways of the dead communicating with the living. Look for Sirius to still provide Harry with guidance.

Being a fan doesn't mean that you have to enjoy every single word of the book.

Right now, I think it is IMPOSSIBLE to even fathom what JKR is telling us about the Veil. I remember reading it the first time and going 'WHAT THE?', and still after rereading it many times I'm still so lost.

What I can gather from the other characters' reactions, they all think Sirius is dead. When Lupin held Harry back, telling him it was too late, telling him Sirius was gone... It seems like that has to be the truth.

Whether JKR is trying to get the point across by having the others tell Harry Sirius is DEAD and there's nothing he can do or if she's just trying to lull us into this belief that he is, I don't know. It seems too easy for her to tell us he's dead, but it doesn't seem probable that he could be alive.

What we CAN get from Sirius seem to be death is that it will effect Harry tremendously! I think his godfather's death will keep him going, but I'm sure we'll run into some sort of connection or communication to Sirius.

Here's what I think. Some of us felt let down after reading the fifth book right? I know I did. I read it the first time, and it seemed like a jungle all about Harry feeling victimized, feeling angry toward his friends, feeling...well, just all about Harry's feelings, frankly. The book was complicated, there were a lot of questions that I didn't have answers for....all in all, it just seemed like a departure from the Harry Potter we knew. And I thought about that, and who Harry really was, what he was really like, what all his friends were like, and the overall plot of the books, for a long time. And then, a year later, I decided to pick up the book again, and it all fit. It was fantastic. I'm now convinced Rowling didn't just 'throw' things in to end the book. To me, these books are about good versus evil, about a boy whose parents were murdered, about someone who is facing the prospect of either killing Lord Voldemort, or dying himself at the hands of Voldemort. Look, we all know all the stuff he faced every year, at Hogwarts, at the Dursley's, everything that went on, escaping Voldemort four times....Rowling's right....this was Harry's year to crack a bit. Wouldn't you? Harry isn't some superman, I mean...what are we expecting? The reason he is alive is because Lily Potter died to save him. That's a plot that's worth something to me. These aren't silly little books about a pampered little prince...or about superman, or anything like that. All these times, escaping Voldemort, for all Harry's misgivings about his friends, his future, Dumbledore, etc....there has to be a time when he cracks for a bit isn't there? Rowling even said, that in the sixth book Harry is going to have to stop that to make himself useful, duh. I refer back to this quote to tell me the story of the books. It's why I read them, why I think they are second to Lord of the Rings.

"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."


So....sorry for the length, but it's important. There isn't any 'departure'. Nothing 'thrown in'. Just more maturity, that's all. He's not superman.

yeh that is true that harry cracked due to all of those things revolving around him.

I only hope that JK will do a great job on the next two and do the series justice. I know she will.

yeh, she will. i cant believe that their are only 2 books left!!

When the series ends....I know I'll have had the chance to read one of the truly great book series....ever. For sure. This is just a great story, all started in a small caffe, the first scribbles written by a poor author. Amazing. The whole Lord of the Rings/Hobbit series was started when Tolkien was supposed to be correcting students papers at Oxford, and, mind wandering, he wrote..."In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit." Remarkable isn't it?

wow, i would never be able to write anything that good. they are soo talented!!

Getting back to topic...

That veil, I believe, is the gateway to death. Dumbledore mentions that learned wizards study "the matter" in the Department of Mysteries. Remember that only Luna, Neville, and Harry, those that had seen someone die, could hear the voices beyond the veil. Just like seeing the thestrals. And Luna ended the book with, "They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." It makes you think that there's more to Luna than meets the eye.

So, Sirius has gone through the gateway, and has gone to the world of the dead, whatever that is. I think JKR left our imaginations to discover what happened there.

you're all over thinking this. It is probably something so simple you would never guess it or soemthing so twisted that you proabably tought it up but decided it didn't fit.

i think he was destined to die.

I don't know guys. As much as I hate to admit it, I think Sirius is definately dead. I mean, JKR didn't just send him through the veil, she saw off the possibility of him returning as a ghost through Harry's conversation with Nearly Headless Nick, plus he broke the mirror. It was as though she was saying, "Hey, he's not just dead, he's really really dead..deader than dead...definately not coming back in any way, shape or form"...you get the point!! I trust JKR completely though, and I'm sure she's looking at some big picture that Sirius' death was important to. He was always like one of those stars that burn too brightly, destined to burn out too soon, you know? After everything he'd been through...I suppose maybe his death will have more effect on Harry than his life ever would have. I'd just really like to see Harry lean more on Lupin for support now, I think he'll be a grounding influence that Harry is really going to need with so much bitterness and anger floating around in his head.

As for the veil itself (and slightly more on topic!!), I have read books that see the borders between the living and the death as a 'veil', and I'm sure there's something quite esoteric in it, particularly as Sirius was alive when he crossed it. Maybe there is still a way to communicate through it - Harry just has to find out how.

i think sirius is dead. as for becoming a ghost i think he might.

I also put this up in the Veil Thread...

This isn't my idea, so im not going to take credit for it (though i don't remember where i read it either), but its interesting nonetheless. Now, the interesting part is the voices of people that can be heard through the veil. I know it isn't likely, but what if they were trapped souls... The souls of the dementors and the ones they have performed the kiss on. What if when you step through the veil you somehow are transformed into a dementor. So then that would mean that Sirius is a Dementor, the one thing that Harry feared among all else (though not really since book 3 b/c he can cast the patronus). Wouldn't that be a trip? I know it isn't likely I re-read the fifth book not too long ago and when reading it I thought this less likely, but its an interesting theory anyway.

Ooh!! I like that one!! I never really thought about that before!! I suppose it would be a bit like that room in 'Beetlejuice' where they kept the souls of all the ghosts that had been exorcised. I guess the souls have to go somewhere, don't they? I mean, sucking all the nice things out of people should make the dementors better for it rather than turning them into the things they are, but it doesn't.

I'm sure JKR had a reason for putting Sirius through the veil rather than just having him die heroically saving Harry from the killing curse or something. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. It'd better be worth it though, after all this building up!!

Rowling is not stupid enough to kill off a main character with 2 sentences... look at cedrics death for gods sakes... she went on about it. I think it'll be like a gandalf thing, where everyone thinks hes dead when hes really not. I mean, look what luna says, "its not like we'll never see them again. You heard them, just behind the veil."

FORESHADOWING!!!!!

When does Luna say that?

And at LEAST Tolkien was nice enough to bring Gandalf back in the same book that he "killed him off"! I don't know, I sort of hope he comes back...The mirror has GOT to have something to do with a later connection between Harry & Sirius...she wouldn't put that in just so everyone can get mad at Harry for not using it.

Maybe she put the mirror in for a tradgic irony. I know I felt bad when he found it.... he broke the other mirror, so they would be useless.

I did too - I think Harry breaking the only method of contact that he could possibly still have with Sirius was even more depressing than his death itself! I know Harry was devestated and probably not thinking too clearly, but all the same his temper and frustration took over when he smashed that mirror. Why would he break something that meant so much to him? I dunno - it just seemed a bit stupid, that's all. Another thing of JKR's to hammer home the point that Sirius ain't ever coming back in any form!!

Incidentally, and slightly more on topic I suppose, I've found that book I was looking for about the veils - it's to do with the Qabalah. It's quite complicated though and I wouldn't want to go stepping on anyone's toes or offending people's religious beliefs by talking about it too much, but it is just a theory - I'm not saying its right or wrong or anything else! It's just that JKR might have read something along these lines herself which gave her the idea. What do you guys think? Do you want me to say a bit more about it here, or would you rather go take a look at some of the books for yourselves?

yeah, dont you think that harry could have slipped one of the mirrors in the veil and had contact with sirius.

Not if one was broken, but I suppose he could fix it. Maybe the mirror has some other significance that will become apparent in the next two books. If what I've read about the veil is true anyway, Sirius isn't going to need a mirror to contact anyone. Having attained a higher kind of existence, I'm sure they have their own methods of communication!!

I really do think that the mirror will play a significant role in the other books and I also believe that is more to the Veil than we know. I believe it will plat a big role later on in six or seven. We'll just have to wait and see.

okay JKR has said herself, the mirror is very important later on (somewhere on her site, cant remember exactly where). mi think sirius is definately dead, jk's not one to just bring characters back to life (besides voldemort, but that's different). also, i think the veil is definately like a gateway to death. still, as someone sadi before, cant remember who, i think it's of huge importance that sirius was only STUNNED when he fell thoruhg, bella didnt use the killing curse. how all that will ocme into play later, i have no idea

I completely agree with dana scully! He probably will have other means of communication... hopefully =

yeah i hope so too.

MOD EDIT: Due to the recent crackdown on short posts, serious consequences will be taken later.

[size=9]But why didn't Lupin let Harry go near the veil? Was it because Harry might dissapar if he went near?

i think that any one who goes behind the veil will dissappear forever. but where do they go?

this veil stuff is very confusing. i'm not sure if all of our questions will ever be answered , but as much as i hate to say it, i think sirius will never come back. i don't think it will happen

i think that lupin didnt want harry trying to go in the veil to save sirius.

Azkaban: I loved your post (ehm, you wrote many, didn't you? Well, the longest one). Right to the point, in my opinion.

Sirius is really, really dead, I think. Bringing him back, in a physical form like Tolkien did with Gandalf would be an awfully stupid thing to do; A total anti-climax, and I have my doubts that Rowling would ever even consider it. As for whether or nor Sirius will still be in contact with Harry or not, I don't know, but it can't be ruled out.

Even though I really, really didn't want Sirius to die, it wasn't such a stupid thing to do. His death will probably influence Harry's life more than Sirius could ever do alive..

[quote]Azkaban: I loved your post (ehm, you wrote many, didn't you? Well, the longest one). Right to the point, in my opinion.

Sirius is really, really dead, I think. Bringing him back, in a physical form like Tolkien did with Gandalf would be an awfully stupid thing to do; A total anti-climax, and I have my doubts that Rowling would ever even consider it. As for whether or nor Sirius will still be in contact with Harry or not, I don't know, but it can't be ruled out.

Even though I really, really didn't want Sirius to die, it wasn't such a stupid thing to do. His death will probably influence Harry's life more than Sirius could ever do alive..[/quote]

maybe harry will be more motivated to learn occu... that thing! I cant sell, ugh. But maybe he'll try harder to become an aurour now?

[size=9]Who has read Jo's Biography?(I bet all of you have). Well remember how she said that the death of her mother changed her and Harry's life. Well maybe she killed Sirius because he was the closest person to Harry, which helped her mold Harry's character into who he is. There has to be a VERY good reason why she "killed him off". I dunno but this is all too sad :cry:

i cried when Sirus died, i wish he didn't he was the only person Harry ever loved and the only person he cared about who was still alive

[size=9]Yea, I cried too when Sirius died. The page about Sirius's death in my copy of the OotP is tear-stained. Very depressing :cry:

how could that happen to such a good person

I know....I cried too...I feel so sorry for Harry...What is he going to do now? At least he has Lupin...but Sirius was his godfather...how could JKR let this happen and why??? I hope he's not dead...that he's just behind the veil, waiting for Harrry... :cry:

I didn't cry but I was devastated when he died. There were like so many theories and guessing games going on before the release of OotP but I think the majority of us in the HP community couldn't have been further off course. I, for one, did not see it coming. I didn't think at all that it was Sirius that JKR had chosen to be the character to die in OotP.

I felt extremely sad for Harry. He has never really had family around for him. Sirius was really the closest he ever got to family and now he's been taken away from him too.

In one of the other forum topics about who will die in the end, I mentioned that the two people I really hope will die is Umbridge (for being such a COW to everyone in OotP, she was such a horrible person!!)...and Bellatrix.

It's all her fault Sirius is dead. What's even more tragic is that it was actually not the curse that killed him. The spell got him off track and he tripped and fell into the veil. I reckon that the veil is some sort of portal to the "other world"...you know, the world of the dead. Something like that. That's why Lupin (I think) held Harry back when he tried to go after Sirius. He said something like Sirius is gone and there's nothing that can be done.

I really don't know whether JKR would bring Sirius back, not like how Gandalf was brought back in LOTR, but more of whether Harry would be able to communicate to him somehow someway. It would be nice though, don't you guys reckon? It'll definitely be quite the touching scene. Maybe there'll be some sort of device that allows people from the real world to get in touch with people from the "other world"??

How about that mirror Sirius gave Harry? Any significance?

Yeah even though Lupin's not family, he is the closest to it now. He was one of James' best friends. I think he'll be the person that Harry would turn to now. Go Lupin!! He's my fave character...

Btw, "just me" - I can't answer why JKR chose to kill off Sirius, but I can tell you that she did say that she was very upset by the decision. She cried when she wrote that chapter.