I think DD or who ever fell of the tower(DD and Snape could have switched places) is not really dead but there is a enchantment done so who ever falls off gets a copy of the body done then the person just leaves. that could be very possible.

tell me what ya all think

Well besides the usual rant and rave about JK Rowling's release that Dumbledore in fact died on the tower that night. Im not quite sure why you call the Tower a Portkey though... a portkey is an object that when touched transports the person to a pre-determined location. This enchantment you are talking about would require someone to fall off the tower, slow down enough to survive the fall, create an exact replica of a corpse and still allow time for the person to walk away. This does not seem probable, and I hate to say it again.. but Dumbledore died. That, by no means, means that he is permanently dead. But there is certain guidelines that we need to follow post Aug 2nd. The two things we need to be aware of when we make theories about Dumbledore after his death are:

• he actually died
• mke sure his return is not "pulling a gandalf"

Other than that, the floor is yours with respect to other concrete canon facts and general probability of some of our more.. er.. elaborate theories.

~Albus

I don't think so, at least in my opinion. That would overly complicate the entire story that you'd have to go back and rethink every single death that ever ocurred and think "was there a body switch?". If that can happen, why not anything else? The tower itself couldn't be a portkey because there were numerous people on it who didn't disappear, and it would have to be activated, which it wasn't, and whoever activated it would also recieve the entire tower once the person arrives from wherever (the school).

And Dumbledore's portrait appeared in the headmasters' office. Rowling said that "he isn't pulling a Gandalf."

In the future remember to not post one liners.

Ok well I didn't put enough detail in there I ment there is a spot at the edge of the tower not the tower itself that when someone falls thorugh it, it takes you to somewhere else

Mod Edit: Short posts are not allowed.

You mean like some sort of vortex where once you pass it, it takes you somewhere? Like a disembodied or without-an-object-portkey? While that is interesting, I don't think it would happen. The person would fall through it, so how would they come back and place a fake body? Or do they fall through it and it makes a fake person in their likeness in their place while sending the real person to someplace else? So, to someone standing there watching it, it looks as if the person has gone nowhere?

Thats wierd, and, like I said, interesting! Unless I misunderstood again

I'll have to respectfully disagree, though, just my opinion.

-Dumbledore is dead (see portrait, Rowling's quotes, etc.)
-the enchantments would prevent this (unless it were an actaul portkey (see one of the last chapters of Order of the Phoenix)
-among other things

Like I said, besides the Dumbledore-is-dead issue, the rest is my opinion.

good point, I belave he is not dead though, he feel through the vortex an the enchatment made a copy of the body, so it would be so quick if anyone was watching it would not look any differnt.

Sadly, what we believe in this case is irrevelant. I, too, believed that Dumbledore had not died, as I explained above I think, but that hope has been wiped away. As I said before, JK Rowling confirmed that Dumbledore died that night. So that incontravertibly disproves your theory.

On a side note, I feel the creation of a vortex that happened to exist right at the moment Dumbledore fell off the tower, which also created a copy of a dead corpse to trick others, is too farfetched. If we had seen a similar incident or phenomena earlier in the books, than maybe it may be possible. But as far as we have seen, these "vortices" do not exist because they have never been mentioned before. For JKR to write something like that seems to much of a cop-out and more likely too random.

~Albus

Well I was not saying it was created that night, I think it was not a accendent that the dark mark was on the tower that it was, Snape telling them where to put it to make sure when they faked his death knew about the vortex or what ever it was. Also saying we have no logic in that it could be true well here is the logic, All through the stories we were constitly told that Hogworts had sercerts that not even DD knew of also certen enchantments so how could it be farfeched eh? it could have been created long ago as a prank to make it look like the person that fell off the tower died but really safe an sound at a secert place. So how could my therory be too farfeched eh? Just because I said it is that it huh DD? is that it seems no matter where I go you always post after me an try to stiffle me.

hmmm I suppose I must back out then if you are to defend the theory with the "It's magic" argument. One cannot argue against the aspect of a vortex being magically created when the defense for it that there is enchantments that nobody knows about. However, it is my belief that such a theory would be poor writing on JKR's fault, extremely and unsatisfyingly random, and simply.. farfetched, as I said before. But that is my opinion.



I post alot Serverus. It's as simple as that. I post alot in the threads I enjoy to write about. You seem to post in the same threads as I do, or even create threads that interest me (ex: Dumbledore). If I disagree with you on something, let it at that. I do not have a motive to go around "stifling" other members. I simply post my opinion. I'm sorry I portrayed myself otherwise to you.

~Albus

I actually agree with Albus on this (a rare occasion i might add.) The thing that we must realize is that JK herself pronounced that Dumbledore died that night. And that he will not "pull a gandalf". I also think that the vortex thing couldnt work because it would involve slowing time or something to get away and as we know all the timeturners were smashed.

True I agree with you, but why would it need time to slow down for the get away?

Severus Snape, calm down (and don't post one liners!) I don't think Albus Dumbledore (the poster) is hunting you down and trying to disprove your theories and other threads/topics. Perhaps, like he said, your theories interest him the most or he happens to be interested in similar things.

Just calm down guys, we're here for debating. We're all friends. If you have any questions or concerns, PM me or another head auror or wizengamot member.

It just, in my opinion, does seem a little out there. I respect your theory and it is really interesting. Can you cite another example where this form of magic could have come into play?

I can't find any more cites to prove my therory but thats whats good about theroies is that they can be proven to be wrong or to be right so I'm keeping with my story an ideas I never let anyone destory my therorys an if anyone has some queastions on any more of my therorys then pm me I'll send ya some more information but in all honisty, I'm mostlikey wrong on most of my ideas but I like to think I am thats what keeps me comming here.

You're right, we don't know whether we're right or wrong. You could be right, no doubt. I'm just trying to figure out if the properties of the magic, where if someone passes through something they disappear and something else replaces them, can work. What would be the ultimate goal? Why do this? Why trick everyone or a majority of the people? Why would a portrait still appear in the headmasters office and why did Rowling still say he is dead?

But I'm glad you don't let others, including me, make you back away from your theory. If that were the case then there wouldn't be much of a debate, it'd just be people posting their ideas then agreeing with the majority, which wouldn't be a debate or discussion but rather an agreeance (if thats a word).

Well a few hours ago I was reading a post by someone on here saying that J.K. Rowling jumps around her answers to the questions she gets asked she could always be lieing or not telling us all the truth. Rember writers do lie sometimes. But also somthing I just rember James an his friends where planing a trick on Snape I'm not sure what this trick was but maybe it was somthing to do with the tower it would explain how Snape would have known to place the Dark Mark there. But I don't know I'm going by my gut feeling.

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean that Snape would know to place the Dark Mark there over the Astronomy Tower? Wasn't it a Death Eater named Jugson or another one which placed it after Dumbledore had gone with Harry to the cave?

The trick Sirius was playing on Snape was to make him go into the Shreiking Shack to get attaked by Lupin, but James stopped him before it got out of hand (aka, dangerous or life threatening).

And I hear you on lying, she would have to if someone said something about the book which was true. She couldn't give it away

Ok so the trick as I do recall now was that, but Snape could have easly have told who ever it was where to put the Dark Mark if it was planed for Snape to fakely kill DD death rember the Avanda Kavada does not knock you off your feet it just makes u drop dead DD on the other hand Floated over the edge of the tower. So how do you explain that. Heh I got more in my bags of tricks

I only know of a few other instances where the killing curse's effects were actually seen. One is when it was described in Goblet of Fire and in later books about how the townspeople came upon the bodies of the Riddles. They appeared to have just died where they stood or sat. Same with Cedric as it is described that something heavy fell beside Harry.

I don't know where you're going with that, though. I've said, maybe not in this thread, that I think there is a plan (or was a plan). Not only does making Dumbledore fall off the tower make Harry get off the tower, because in all honesty he most likely would have stayed on the tower instead of going after Snape, but it also makes him out of reach of the Death Eaters. Snape said the killing curse rather than think of it within his head, which may make it possible for him to include some sort of lifting charm at the same time.

If not, well, he is a very powerful wizard, second tier actually. Below Voldemort and Dumbledore...somewhere in that area. I think with that much power there could an added emphasis and unleashment. We've seen this with Harry where he just unleashes all his anger and something odd happens. Perhaps Snape wanted to unleash all his anger because he didn't actually want to kill Dumbledore, but he had to, if its a plan. If it isn't, the same can still be said, only that he wanted to kill him.

If you're saying that Snape did this to lower Dumbledore through the vortex, then how do you explain that he still used the killing curse. In fact, how do you explain it even without Snape meaning to? We saw Dumbledore's portrait in the headmasters office, we saw Harry get out of the charm or whatever that Dumbledore placed on him which could only mean that he died or managed to some how take it off, somebody (literally...some body...) was placed in a coffin, among other things. If you don't believe me about the portrait, it says that there was a new portrait among the dead headmasters, or something to that extent.

I don't want this to turn into another, "is Dumbledore dead or not thread", though. Or another one about Snape's allegiance.

So...do you know of another instance where this magic was used? Don't you think it would be useful for someone else? What would be the point of putting it in that location, solely for Dumbeldore's use? Where would Dumbledore have ended up? How do you explain certain evidence that explains the contrary that he is dead? How do you explain Rowling's words that he's dead? How does this help Harry? How would Harry react when he finds out that Harry is still alive, according to your theory?

Well El Barto you make very great points, Rember there is always a point to somthing. Rember in the 4th book when Moody was explaining about the Killing Curse? Also when Harry him self tryed to use a Unfogivable Curse he could not do it because he didn't have the pure hate for someone. I beleave-not trying to go off topic but if it has to be done it has to be done-that Snape didn't have the pure hate for DD he didn't really want to kill DD but insted like you said used a lifting Charm to host him over the tower. For the Spell on Harry DD might not have put Harry on it Snape could have he could have been waiting outside the door hiding he can make himself invis-Snape was reported to be seen going up the stairs a little after the Death Eaters or so they think not for sure time laps Snape could have told them to wait for DD and Harry arrive then put Harry onto it, then sent Draco out then all the terrible things happend whether or not this is a possible theroy always think about it


~Servers Snape

I really do doubt that Snape and Dumbledore changed places. What I am getting at is that Harry saw it all happen. The two could not have switched places at all in such a short amount of time.

I also have to agree with other posters on this topic that there also wouldn't have been time even if they did switch to make a fake body at the foot of the tower and have the tower itself as a portkey. Its just too much to believe that this could have been done.

It is impossible for Snape to have placed Harry under the charm that kept him frozen. It was reported, like you said, that he was seen going up the steps after the Death Eaters did...but thats just the thing. Even before the Death Eaters arrived Harry was already frozen in position. While all this was happening, Snape was still in his room with Hermione and I think Luna guarding the door. Flitwick came and realized that the school was under attack, he went to tell Snape who knocked him out, then Snape told Hermione and Luna to check on Flitwick. Snape then went to the tower.

Flitwick could have only been warned about the battle outside by actually seeing and hearing it. Remember, in the third book, his room is way high up which is where Sirius was being held for the dementors (if it wasn't for Harry and Hermione). He could have looked out his window an saw what was happening then ran downstairs screaming bloody murder. But why does that matter? Harry could hear the fight, too. He heard someone yell that they put up some kind of barrier (I think that was Bill), and then later the Death Eaters finally arrived.

So, to sum it up:

-Harry and Dumbledore land on tower
-Harry frozen into position
-Draco disarms Dumbledore, conversation ensues
-Order and Death Eaters fight outside of the Astronomy Tower
-Flitwick see's this
-Goes to warn Snape, Snape knocks him out
-Snape arrives at the Astronomy Tower
-He kills Dumbledore and either lifts him off the tower or the force of his killing curse does it all
-He either falls down or goes through your vortex.

So you see it is impossible for Snape to have cast the charm on Harry. Sorry for the long explanation! The only way, though, which is far fetched in my opinion, is if Snape and Dumbledore had switched places using polyjuice. However, he and Harry were interacting for several hours previous. From leaving the headmasters' office to Hogsmeade to the cave and back again was more than one hour, which is how long the potion lasts. You can argue that it only lasted that long for Harry and Ron but it is next to impossible to determine because they each took different amounts of the potion but transformed back at the same time in book 2. And Dumbledore's demeanor throughout the events was nothing like Snape's, and vice versa. Why would Dumbledore kill someone? Because he would have had to have killed Snape (as Dumbledore) and make him fall off the tower. How does it all work?

Remember, Harry had the DA patrolling around that night. Snape would have been seen if he told Draco to wait on the tower then go all the way back to his room to later be intruded upon by Flitwick.

Sorry for these long explanations!

well El Barto agian you make good sense but I didn't explain enough,


here is how my theroy can be sumed up

-Death Eaters are waiting out side the tower door with Snape & Draco
-Harry DD arrive, Death Eaters put up Barrier,Draco goes out Snape freezes Harry knowing someone would really be killed if Harry was not held still.

-Draco does his lil speech

-Death Eaters come onto the tower do there lil thing

-then Snape comes out of the darkness he does his thing lifts Harry off the spell so he would think DD really died but insted goes through the Vortex.

thats my therory in cold Blood nothing much too it but it explains my theroy more.

But Snape was still in his office. The way I see it, if I were to go by your theory, is if Snape wound up freezing Harry and making it back to his office or bedroom without being seen by anybody. The reason I see it that way, from my last post, is because Hermione and Luna were keeping a look out by his room and a few others saw him coming from that general direction as well. He couldn't have been hiding on the tower or near it.

Ok let me try to explain it once more.


-Hermoine and Luna go to Snapes room, Flitwick comes in,

-Snape goes to tower, DD and Harry are not there yet.

-DD and Harry arrive Snape freezes Harry

-the rest happens.

thats is as simple as i can make it so maybe you can understand what I'm trying to tell you.

Maybe I wasn't clear, too

-Harry and Dumbledore land on tower
-Harry frozen into position
-Draco disarms Dumbledore, conversation ensues
-Order and Death Eaters fight outside of the Astronomy Tower
-Flitwick see's this
-Goes to warn Snape, Snape knocks him out
-Snape arrives at the Astronomy Tower
-He kills Dumbledore and either lifts him off the tower or the force of his killing curse does it all
-He either falls down or goes through your vortex.

Thats the sequence of events, or the ones that stand out. Yours contradicts the book. Harry was already frozen and Snape was still in his office when the fighting started. I say the fighting because thats what alerted Flitwick to run to Snape's office. Snape, from what we've read, was indeed in his room and quickly left after knocking him out. Hermione tells us this. Someone else in the hospital wing afterwards says they saw him crossing the lawn going towards the Astronomy Tower as they were fighting "We thought he was going to help us" to paraphrase Lupin or McGonnagal.

The fighting could also be heard on the tower, as Harry is described as fearful about people dying since Draco says somebody was killed (Bill, but he wasn't dead) because he stepped over the person.

Thats why I keep saying that the only way it makes sense is if Snape froze Harry then quickly ran back to his room without being seen. But you aren't going by what the book says happened. If it did, then Flitwick would never have been knocked out since Snape wouldn't have been there. Nobody would have seen Snape cross the lawn, so nobody would be able to place Snape on the scene except Harry (but as we know, many did place him on the scene only because they saw him cross the lawn during the battle).

Maybe you should go read the chapter again, no offense. Just to get a better handle on that aspect of the theory. But in the end, I don't know why we're debating who froze him. Dumbledore did. Harry realizes he did it and thats the only way Draco disarmed since he was concentrating on freezing Harry. Harry is relieved of this charm by his death.

Well I'm going to go re read this Topic, but rember the story is going by the prespective of abunch of people when they were in chaos. don't forget that.

Yes, there is that factor. Hermione and Luna weren't in the battle, at least to begin with. They were outside of Snape's office. They couldn't have made that part up because they weren't fatigued from the battle. The others had been in many battles (not the DA but the Order members). The Order members include Lupin (I believe he was there), Tonks, McGonnagal, among others (though I think thats it besides Bill). Lupin testified, or said, that he thought Snape was there to help them. Snape was described as crossing the lawn and where exactly he came from, while Harry tried to picture it. I think all this was told in the chapter after the Flight of the Prince. The others had the luck potion on their side so they didn't have to put up as much of a front as they would have if they didn't have it.

well As I have just noticed there is not much more to go on with the forum if anyone else has somthing too add just put it in but it pretty much as been draged all the way through the mud with this topic but I shall be comming back to it with my therory more justified.