It's TEAMWORK. It's NOT the result of a single person, but a result of TEAMWORK. It's nothing shippy here. So this SHOULDN'T be considered a shipping proof.

Not exactly the warmest of greetings. She tells what she is doing there, and tells him:

Hermione continues as if nothing is wrong, telling how she got there on the Knight Bus, and about Umbridge and Dumbledore and then says:

Phew! Now that's the SECOND long passage I bothered to quote for you all on two consecutive days. I hope you appreciate it . This time, to keep from being ignored, I will state my views of it now, lol.

Alright. Let's start at the beginning. Hermione shows up out of nowhere, when she's supposed to be skiing with her parents. He is shocked, and surprised. (The book actually uses the words "slight shock" to describe Harry's reaction to someone knocking on his door)

Then, Hermione speaks (keep in mind, this is the girl he's supposedly subconsciously in love with) and he answers her, "What are you doing here?"

Basically, he opened the door not because it was Hermione, but because it was someone he did not expect. Had he been happy to see Hermione, he probably would have spoken more than those five rather rude words to her in the time which they spent in Buckbeaks room, or perhaps on the way down to Harry's room, as Hermione was not leaving much room for him to squeeze into the conversation at that time.

If you are saying that meekly submitting to her will and following her without a word is showing some sort of soul mate connection, then I'm rushing to get some holy water and garlic as soon as I'm done reading your post. Because if that's how soulmates respond to each other, then I don't EVER want to find mine!

Let me paint you another scenario.

Ron's dad gets bit by a "dirty great snake" the day before Christmas Holidays are to begin. Hermione, knowing all the Weasleys quite well, and one, (perhaps two, with Ginny, but we don't know enough about their interactions to say. I believe it is safe to assume that Ginny is Hermione's best GIRLfriend) are her best friends from school. Rather than spend a pointless break sliding down a mountain on sticks (something she really doesn't like to do anyway) she decides to spend it with the Weasleys in their time of need. Just as Harry did. (Though, Harry was sort of forced into it by Dumbledore, but that's beside the point.)

Upon reaching Number 12, she sees Ron and Ginny, but asks, "Where's Harry?" because it is not like Harry to be far from Ron when there is not some reason for them to be seperated. Such as taking showers, I'd imagine. (Has anyone else noticed that Harry never took a bath until midway through GoF? He hasn't taken one since, either. . . Dirty little bugger!)

"Um. . . I don't know. He's been spending alot of time alone, lately," says Ron, avoiding Hermione's eyes.
"What he means is that he's been hiding from us since we got back from visiting Dad in the hospital," says Ginny, with a piercing sidelong look at her brother.
Ron turned a bit pink, but still wouldn't look up from his shoes.
"Whatever for?"
"Well," sighed Ron, now gazing intently at a motheaten hole in the carpet. "He reckons it was him bit dad. He thinks he was the snake."
"That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Where is he?" Hermione demands briskly.

Being the problem solver that she is, she naturally wants to get to the bottom of this. Seeks out Harry, and tricks him into coming down for an Intervention.

If you will note, in the passage I quoted, everything Hermione says, only makes Harry angrier. It was not until Ginny's comments (not because they came from Ginny necissarily, infact Harry gets even MORE upset after her first comment) that Harry heard something he wanted to hear. That he felt a lightening of the heart. Even AFTER that, he discards what Hermione said about his visions of Voldemort imediately. Don't see any sign of hidden feelings there. It is my argument, that if Harry was harboring ANY romantic feelings for Hermione whatsoever, than he would have felt that lightening of the heart as soon as he heard her voice. Something which simply DID NOT HAPPEN. So if you are suggesting that the subtext of this passage is pointing to Harry having feelings for Hermione, I'd have to say that you are wrong.

A case could be made for Hermione having feelings for Harry, because she abandoned her trip with her parents to spend Christmas with him. But the question remains. . . Was she coming for him, Ron, or the Weasleys as a whole? We already knew that Harry was spending the holidays with the Weasleys, yet Hermione was set to go on her trip alone anyway. As it states in the section which I quoted, a section all of you can find in your own books if you believe I was less than truthful, or the paragraphs I omitted contained something important to your case, Ron and Ginny only told Hermione about Harry's situation AFTER she arrived.

(As a matter of fact, I omitted previous paragraphs that were important to mine, as they showed Harry was shocked that the visitor at the door which he heard was there to see HIM, and he probably would have opened it even had he not heard Hermione's voice just to find out who it was, but that last bit is just my opinion.)

No, wait. It only says they told her all about it. It could have been in a post. So that does not prove my point alone. What proves my point *sigh* is one of the paragraphs which I omitted. It is right after Harrys shock at seeing Ron and Ginny. pg 498 (and a wee bit of) 499

And I will NEVER again skip a paragraph in a quote! (Only pages

This makes it clear that Hermione came because of Mr. Weasley, and not Harry. What I stated before is only supporting evidence. (but it was VERY good supporting evidence, and if I had not realized there was DIRECT evidence, I think it would have stood on its own

Ah, Valentine's Day! It makes you see love so clearly . . . Or, in my case, lack of it. (but I did give a beautiful young lady a flower today, and got her number! Yay me! I hope you're all rooting for me, cause if I had a girlfriend, chances are I wouldn't have so much time to point out little tidbits of Harry Potter to you in an attempt to ruin your fondest desires? Of course, that is not why I do it, but to try to point out the truth.)

Time will tell if it is MY truth, or JK Rowlings.
Though, Time won't tell me anything.

(Sorry about the length, all. But since there was a misreading of information going on, I felt the need to clarrify what the book says. Subtext and all. If you do not agree with my analysis then that is fine. Show the H/Hr side of this passage, but I think I already debunked it. That's up to you all to decide.)

pg. 295 - 299 OotP, Scholastic, hb, ed.

Well? What is the H/Hr slant of that passage?

Oh, Exir . . . Just wondering where that quote came from? Because, it sounds alot like what JK said about one of her girlfriends saying she liked Lucious Malfoy, because he was handsome, and how she didn't understand why some women always went for "the bad boys." If it was about H/Hr/R, then that may be something to consider. Which is why, for it to be an argument, you must post more of the interview in which she said it, otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. (Sorry.) JK is very careful never to give out information on future books in her interviews. The only thing I have ever seen her say about the ships is, "You'll just have to figure it out for yourself, now won't you? I think I've given quite alot of clues on that subject." (Not an EXACT quote, but it is exactly what she meant. (and the "I've given quite alot of clues on that subject" part IS an exact quote.))

Hiya snoopy and welcome to the forums! Don't worry too much about that format...it didn't really work out and I'm not going to jump on anyone for not sticking to it so long as things are kept nice and respectful here, which they seem to be right now...at last....*yay!*

At least you've bothered to read the rules first, so that makes you just fine in my book... Well done...I just wish all members would...it would make the mods' lives so much easier...**sigh**

Okay then, carry on!!

First of all,thank you exir,dana_scully and long live the weasel king!I feel at home already And no by 'you' I was referring to R/hr shippers in general.And as for the h/hr ship,I believe harry's lack of interest in hermione upto now was because of his crush on cho.Now that the crush is over,he'll start noticing the girls around him.I'm a h/hr shipper but I don't mind harry getting together with ginny or luna or anyone for that matter,because I'm a hp fan because of the plots,suspense,etc.And not romance,though I value it quite a lot.

True,I agree with that.I believe ron has something for hermione,whether crush or true love,only time will tell.However,I don't see any specific situation where hermione's feelings are specifically outlined towards ron.

When I first got hooked onto the hp books,it was after watching the movies.And naturally,I started of as a r/hr shipper.Then I began to read the books and after reading all of them published so far,I really saw the h/hr bond developing into more than friendship.I feel the h/hr interactions are full of understanding,respect,care,etc.And the way hermione cares deeply for harry,I see her really having something for him.You know,the way she takes interest in his quidditch matches,the firebolt incident,believing and helping him during GOF,the DA,interview with rita skeeter,etc. made me believe her feelings for harry are pouring out.

Yes,romance is not what makes the books.And we have different points of view on who hermione will hook up with.I would be interesting in knowing what people with neutral views on shipping matters think.

I don't know many people around here,but I would be interested in reading a few good essays-of my ship and others.

I may be wrong,but it's what I felt.And let me try to explain the passage-

Ok,so the situation is like this.Hermione has always seen ron overshadowed by his brothers be it percy,charlie,bill,or the twins.She hasn't seen him stand up to any of them before.For instance,when ron was made prefect,fred and george ridicule him.There again hermione stands up for him but he is the one who tells her to 'drop it'.Next,when hermione tries to stop fred and george from advertising their products,ron hides and does not help her.Now the difference here is ron not only stands upto his brother but also gives a very strong reaction.Hermione is heartened to see itand thus rewards him for his courage.That's my take on the issue.

I can't say anything either,though I believe hermione spending that time with harry itself is an indicator of her feelings for him.

But when has jkr made anything so obvious?I mean she has made some things obvious and they turn out to be red herrings.Taking the books at face value was what we did in GOF with the imposter moody.I think we need to think deeper,and realize that there is a world of difference between the surface and the bottom.

This may count in favour of r/hr.It may constitute good story-telling,but jkr has always been different,hasn't she? Only she knows what lies ahead for us

True,no disagreement here.

He isn't in love with her right now.The only girl he thinks about now is cho.She's his only crush.He hasn't gotten over her yet.

Agreed,he opened the door beause it was hermione,someone whom he did not expect.But the thing is how come he left the room,when he had been locked up there for two days if I'm not wrong?I mean it could have been some thing like this-
"Hermione what are you doing here?"
".........
and then hermione could have told him about lighting the fire in their room and the sandwiches.
And then harry could have said something like I don't feel like it,you go on ahead.
But instead he chose to go on with her and not remain locked up.And isn't it significant that jkr got hermione to remove harry from the room and not ginny?If it was as easy as that,why din't ginny even try to get him out of the room?What was the point of waiting for hermione.Instead jo could so easily have given ginny a nice private conversation with harry about being possessed by voldie and then have her comfort him.What was the necessity of bringing hermione into the picture and give her the role of bringing harry out?That certainly seems significant to me.

again,why did he meekly submit to her?He could have remained locked up for two more days,instead of quietly going out with hermione.Or else he could have gone out of the room two days before,why wait for hermione?I'm not saying that he waited for hermione or something but if he was finally going to submit,why not to ron?why only to hermione?just because she was unexpected?I don't think so

True again.That's the main purpose of hermione's visit.Yet,she first chooses to visit harry as soon as she arrives.We know that from the fact that there's snow in hermione's hair and she is all pink from skiing.Now again,if the main purpose of hermione's visit is arthur,then why did she visit harry first instead of comforting the weasleys?why did she discuss about harry the first thing she did after coming to grimmauld place?That is another of those instances where hermione's first priority is harry and taking care of him

I'll disagree.The first thing that should have been on her mind was talking about arthur and comforting the weasleys.How can harry be in a bigger problem than arthur to worry about him first rather do the primary job?And then again if hermione asks about harry first,then she's seriously mad about him.And also how did she 'trick' him into coming?Also notice that harry is 'surprised' to see ron and ginny in the room meaning he fancied a private chat with hermione.

I'm using this post to hint hermione having feelings for harry and her worth to him.And who did the organizing of the whole group?wasn't it hermione?and then again harry is too occupied with cho to notice hermione or ginny.

Read my above posts for reply to hermione's purpose of coming and all that.
P.S-great post though!,and thanks for the encouragement

But when has jkr made anything so obvious?I mean she has made some things obvious and they turn out to be red herrings.Taking the books at face value was what we did in GOF with the imposter moody.I think we need to think deeper,and realize that there is a world of difference between the surface and the bottom.

Ron and Hermione being the classic "dispise each other on first sight, falling passionately in love" romantic theme may not be a twist worthy of Jane Austin, as you say, but it's not as childish as some may think.This may count in favour of r/hr.It may constitute good story-telling,but jkr has always been different,hasn't she? Only she knows what lies ahead for us.

All right, that was what you actually said in your first post, so I will answer that before doing your second one.

The biggest weakness in your argument is that you say, after reading the books, "I really saw the h/hr bond developing into more than friendship.I feel the h/hr interactions are full of understanding,respect,care,etc.And the way hermione cares deeply for harry,I see her really having something for him." But then never showed any indicators in the text of what made you believe that Hermione felt romantically toward Harry. Also, you say "the h/hr bond developing between them" which implies that Harry is recipricating these feelings, which simply is not so. If you believe it to be, please show proof. I've found that this is something that is hard for any H/Hr shipper to do, because even when they find the instances in the text which they were thinking about, they realize that it wasn't quite as they recalled, and they can see that it could be taken as no more than an act of platonic friendship.

Also, "understanding,respect,care,etc." While I see that their relationship does include this, I also see that it includes boredom and aggravation on the part of Harry when he spends time alone with Hermione untempered by Ron's influence. Mostly during the time when he and Ron are estranged. The time which H/Hr shippers believe to be a point for their case. Also, when he refuses to help Hermione knit elf clothes in OotP. The passage and Harry's thoughts and reactions are very telling as to his feelings for Hermione. pg. 278 OotP, Scholastic, hb, ed.

This quote is taken slightly out of context, so I will clarrify. It is when the Gryffindors are throwing Ron a party for being made Keeper. Hermione forcing herself to stay, even though Harry finds her asleep in a chair, shows that she did not want to hurt Ron's feelings by leaving. (which she flat out says) Something any friend would do for another, so nothing shippy there. (though it does make a nice patch for the "they still hate each other" hole Harmony tried to make) Her lack of enthusiasm for the party is for her lack of enthusiasm for the source of the celebration. Hermione has given her opinions on Quidditch on numorous occassions. (Yet another point of contention between her and Ron. Though, Harry isn't too chuffed on it either.)

Now for the quote itself. We all know that Hermione is obsessed with House Elf Liberation, lol. Infact, through the entire fifth book, making clothes and spending time in the library are pretty much her sole activites during free time. It is obviously something she is very passionate about, and Harry KNOWs she is passionate about. So what does he do? He brushes her off as nicely as he is able (though, his abillties leave something to be desired) turns his back on her, and goes to bed.

Hermione's disappointment. This could be taken two ways. (As all H/Hr proofs can.) 1. Hermione is disappointed because Harry did not want to spend time alone with her. 2. Hermione is disappointed that Harry does not share her enthusiasm for SPEW. Actually there's a third. Both. Anyway you cut it, though, Harry did not want to spend time with her.

"understanding,respect,care,etc." the relationship between Ron and Hermione includes these as well. Except, of course, for the "understanding" bit, because they would not argue with each other if they agreed with all of their views. However, the other conotations of "understanding" are sympathy and support, and I DO see that between Ron and Hermione, at least when they can agree on the best course of action. Such as when Harry is avoiding everyone in OotP, and they (along with Ginny) help each other to convince him he is being foolish. There are other instances as well. If you would like me to find them, I will. If they were easy to find in relation to the overall plot, I would quote them now, but until proven otherwise, I will opperate under the assumption that everyone has seen at least some of these instances, and will understand what I'm talking about. The above example fits this one as well.

Who else has noticed that 90% of the R/Hr arguments are about Harry's best course of action? They argue about Harry meeting Draco for the "Midnight Duel", they argue about Snape being after the sorcerers stone, they argue about the flying car (after the fact), they argue about the firebolt, (which is also the reason Hermione gives Harry a broom servicing kit on his next birthday) they argue about Harry putting his name in the Goblet (though, these are arguments which occur "behind the scenes" as it were) they argue about Harry procrastinating with the egg, they argue about how Harry and Ron are choosing dates to the Ball, and all of these are just things I reeled off from the top of my head! Just after getting to school they are constantly arguing about what Harry should do, and he gets so sick of it, he tells them off. Afterward, their arguments decrease drastically.

Let me also add, that it is not always Ron who starts these arguments. Hermione starts them over Ron's opinions just as often as he does hers. The rest of their arguments seem to stem from Hermione's annoyance that Ron doesn't seem to take anything seriously, and Ron's annoyance at Hermione's constant lecturing. Infact, any time Hermione starts to lecture Ron at all, he flares up instantly.

What is most interesting, however, is that Ron STOPS doing this. When Hermione is pestering Harry ALL DAY about breaking into Umbridges office, Ron does not argue with her. He allows her to try to convince Harry without sticking up for him. Understanding, respecting, and caring for her opinion.

Also, I do not think it is possible for someone to read the books without having an opinion of some sort of relationship involving Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Whether it is between them, or with three completely different people. Infact, come to think of it, in the DoM, there WERE three other people. Neville, Luna, and Ginny. Perhaps ALL of this is just a smokescreen, and Neville and Hermione will pair, Luna and Ron will pair, and Ginny and Harry will pair. (Note, that unless JK was going to take the books into rather strange and taboo territory, it would not be possible for Harry and Ron to switch partners. lol)

It is impossible, because JK has OBVIOUSLY incorporated the element of Romance into the novels. If you are neutral, it only means you cannot see what she is trying to do. Infact, it is my opinion that anyone who IS neutral would be a R/Hr shipper, because that is the most obvious pairing in the book. It is what JK seems to be building toward. If they were neutral, it would mean they did not care to look deeper, and took the books at "face" value. When I first came on this site I was surprised that many people still considered the possibility of a H/Hr ship. Through the first three and a half books, there was no sign of romance between any of the three, infact, the only romance was Ginny's crush on Harry. Which disappointed me, because I thought JK was going to make Harry and Ginny get together later on, and at the time I thought Ginny was lame, and WANTED Harry and Hermione to start going out once they were old enough to think of such things. But, when JK started building this thing with Ron, I completely changed my views, because while it was something I hoped for, it did not seem like something that she was building toward.

You describe exactly the reason WHY Hermione felt that upsurge of emotion for Ron when he tore up Percy's letter. Bravo. Thanks. Can't argue with that at all. Don't want to.

Now your second post. This post upsets me much more than the last. Infact, it is exactly what made me so mad when PhoenixEffect did it the first time. I quoted that entire passage of the book, and then gave my opinion on it.

Whereas you, rather than making your own case of what the text means, deconstructed the case I made. I see that as a personal attack. I did not bother to type out word for word, punctuation, font and spelling, what the book said so that you could try to tear apart my argument. I did it so that you, and everyone else who comments on this page would have an easier time of making a case to support your belief on what that passage might entail. In the future, I would appreciate it if you did not do that. I will now read what you had to say and try to put it into a consice post as I did the last time, following my same rules.

True,no disagreement here. That is because He isn't in love with her right now.The only girl he thinks about now is cho.She's his only crush.He hasn't gotten over her yet.

I agree that he opened the door beause it was hermione,someone whom he did not expect.But the thing is how come he left the room,when he had been locked up there for two days if I'm not wrong?I mean it could have been some thing like this-
"Hermione what are you doing here?"
".........
and then hermione could have told him about lighting the fire in their room and the sandwiches.
And then harry could have said something like I don't feel like it,you go on ahead.
But instead he chose to go on with her and not remain locked up.And isn't it significant that jkr got hermione to remove harry from the room and not ginny?If it was as easy as that,why din't ginny even try to get him out of the room?What was the point of waiting for hermione.Instead jo could so easily have given ginny a nice private conversation with harry about being possessed by voldie and then have her comfort him.What was the necessity of bringing hermione into the picture and give her the role of bringing harry out?That certainly seems significant to me.

You say that Harry should have shown some sort of gladness that Hermione was there, rather than being completely rude, butagain,why did he meekly submit to her?He could have remained locked up for two more days,instead of quietly going out with hermione.Or else he could have gone out of the room two days before,why wait for hermione?I'm not saying that he waited for hermione or something but if he was finally going to submit,why not to ron?why only to hermione?just because she was unexpected?I don't think so

Yes, the main purpose of hermione's visit was because Mr. Weasley was in the hospital, Yet,she first chooses to visit harry as soon as she arrives.We know that from the fact that there's snow in hermione's hair and she is all pink from skiing.Now again,if the main purpose of hermione's visit is arthur,then why did she visit harry first instead of comforting the weasleys?why did she discuss about harry the first thing she did after coming to grimmauld place?That is another of those instances where hermione's first priority is harry and taking care of him. Whereas, The first thing that should have been on her mind was talking about arthur and comforting the weasleys.How can harry be in a bigger problem than arthur to worry about him first rather do the primary job?And then again if hermione asks about harry first,then she's seriously mad about him.And also how did she 'trick' him into coming?Also notice that harry is 'surprised' to see ron and ginny in the room meaning he fancied a private chat with hermione.

You say, "If you will note, in the passage I quoted, everything Hermione says, only makes Harry angrier." I'm using this post to hint hermione having feelings for harry and her worth to him, not to show Harry's feelings for her. And who did the organizing of the whole group?wasn't it hermione?and then again harry is too occupied with cho to notice hermione or ginny.

Read my above posts for reply to hermione's purpose of coming and all that.
P.S-great post though!,and thanks for the encouragement

The first thing I would like to discuss, is the important of context, and perhaps display the reason why someone chopping my work into pieces enrages me so. The following is taken directly from your last post. I will indicate when I am making my own arguments again.

I'll disagree.The first thing that should have been on her mind was talking about arthur and comforting the weasleys.How can harry be in a bigger problem than arthur to worry about him first rather do the primary job?And then again if hermione asks about harry first,then she's seriously mad about him.And also how did she 'trick' him into coming?Also notice that harry is 'surprised' to see ron and ginny in the room meaning he fancied a private chat with hermione.

AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

LOL! It's alright, I'm calm now.

If you read my passage carefully, you will note this section:
Upon reaching Number 12, she sees Ron and Ginny, but asks, "Where's Harry?" because it is not like Harry to be far from Ron when there is not some reason for them to be seperated. Such as taking showers, I'd imagine.

(I cut out my humorous anticdote about Harry's hygene, but you didn't address that anyway. Very disappointing. It's not easy thinking of this stuff you know! You could have given me a "lol" or at least a "he he"!)

Which shows that I too believe Hermione's first thought was for Harry, for the reasons which I stated.

Your response to this quote:
I'll disagree.The first thing that should have been on her mind was talking about arthur and comforting the weasleys.How can harry be in a bigger problem than arthur to worry about him first rather do the primary job?And then again if hermione asks about harry first,then she's seriously mad about him.And also how did she 'trick' him into coming?Also notice that harry is 'surprised' to see ron and ginny in the room meaning he fancied a private chat with hermione.

To me, this makes it seem as if I did not believe that Hermione's first thought was for Harry at all. When, infact, I stated that it was. Now, let me explain my angry outburst, and the LOL! afterwards.

It was because, upon reading this segment, EVEN I thought that I had not made that point, and believed you had cut Hermione's dialogue where I said, "Where's Harry?" In order to make it seem that way. So I went back to my original post, intending to quote all of what I said, and give you a strong tongue lashing for cutting that part out of my argument to make it suit your needs. Needless to say, I was surprised to find that it really was exactly as you quoted. Which calmed me down for a moment. I then became angry again, upon reading your response, and so did not cut all of that.

But then, I realized the fault was mine. I misread what you were trying to say, which is why I wrote, "It's okay, I'm calm now." lol. I misunderstood you because you quoted something from me, and began your reply with "I'll disagree." (note the period) Which made it seem as if you were disagreeing with the entire statement. I had no idea where you were coming from with all that about Mr. Weasley, until I put a comma in place of the period in my mind, and it read like this.

I'll disagree, the first thing that should have been on her mind was talking about arthur and comforting the Weasleys.

And it made perfect sense. LOL! (I'm laughing at myself here!) Which I believe is why the Mods don't allow chatspeak, and encourage capatalization, spacing, and use of punctuation. It really doesn't change your style much anyway.

Also, I really didn't understand what you meant in one particular section, so I am going to quote it in its entirety, and tell you what I took it to mean so that you can explain it to me better if I am wrong.

Agreed,He opened the door beause it was hermione,someone whom he did not expect.But the thing is how come he left the room,when he had been locked up there for two days if I'm not wrong?I mean it could have been some thing like this-
"Hermione what are you doing here?"
".........
and then hermione could have told him about lighting the fire in their room and the sandwiches.
And then harry could have said something like I don't feel like it,you go on ahead.
But instead he chose to go on with her and not remain locked up.And isn't it significant that jkr got hermione to remove harry from the room and not ginny?If it was as easy as that,why din't ginny even try to get him out of the room?What was the point of waiting for hermione.Instead jo could so easily have given ginny a nice private conversation with harry about being possessed by voldie and then have her comfort him.What was the necessity of bringing hermione into the picture and give her the role of bringing harry out?That certainly seems significant to me.

The part I don't understand is when you say, "it could have been some thing like this- "Hermione what are you doing here?"
".........

Because, well, yes, I guess it COULD have been like that. But it WASN'T. It was like this. "What are you doing here?"

Which makes a HUGE difference. Also, "and then hermione could have told him about lighting the fire in their room and the sandwiches."

She did do that. ???? I don't understand what your point is.

"And then harry could have said something like I don't feel like it,you go on ahead."

Ahhh, and now it all becomes clear. If I had wanted to be TRULY cruel, I could have left that last sentance out, and it would not have made sense to anyone.

Do you understand now about context, and interupting the flow of someone's argument? I understand that I was picking apart each sentance, and you were quoting each paragraph and making your comment. But I state points in one paragraph, show evidence in the next, and offer my interpretation in the last. Sometimes, my evidence is rather long, and so it takes more than one paragraph, but if you will note, during such times, I always come back around to my original point. This post of mine is an example:

http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=46173

Back to the topic though! Harry did leave the room, but I never quoted that section, it was the page before what I DID quote. Really shouldn't have to though, I only do that to make SURE everyone is reading the same thing, because people tend to make generalizations about their opinion without quoting even a sentance of what caused them to form that opinion, and if I quote only a section, they claim I'm cutting out the part that shows proof of their side, but STILL don't bother to quote it. It was beginning to annoy me, so I decided to just quote the entire section, without cutting out anything. I was hoping that when people formed their own arguments, they WOULD quote the sections to which they were referring, as it is easy to copy and paste, now that that segment of the book has been faithfully transcribed. Quotes people! They can only clarify your point! (As well as force you to reread that section, so you don't make hasty generalizations without noticing the passages in the book that are shortly about to be used against you! lol)

But anyway, Harry had been haunting other parts of the manor, but began moving further and further up as people kept trying to bother him. He also slept in his and Ron's room, but would try to go there only after Ron was asleep. Check it yourself, if you want. If you believe I am wrong, feel free to quote the entire section

Another point I'd like to clarify, which I did not the first time I addressed this issue, because I believed it to be apparent, is that Hermione knocked on the door and said, "Harry, I know you're in there. Will you please come out? I want to talk to you." When Harry opened the door, she was wearing winter gear, and flushed from the cold. She did not respond to his rude greeting, but bustled into the room, talking a mile a minute and tacked on the bit about going to Harry's room as there was food and fire. As Harry had already agreed to "please come out? I want to talk to you" by opening the door, I'd have to say he came out because Hermione wanted to talk to him.

Why exactly are we arguing this point again?

A friend wanted to talk to him, Harry agreed. Why wouldn't he talk to Ginny or Ron? and Why was he surprised to find Ginny and Ron waiting for him? were your next questions for me, so I'll try to answer them.

If you recall, Ginny and Ron both heard what he had on the Extendable Ears (henceforth known as EE's. lol) Hermione had not been there, so for one thing, he didn't think she knew what was depressing him. She never said, "I need to talk about YOUR feelings." I'm assuming the only reason he was willing to talk to her at all was because he thought she wanted to talk about something else. (Rather niave of him, as the only way she could have "know[n] you are in there" was if someone had told her he had been hiding and why.) Infact, when she did ask him, "how do you feel?" He tried to avoid the question, and snarled at her. Of course, this was AFTER he had found Ron and Ginny waiting for him.

So when I say Hermione "tricked" Harry into coming down . . . ^that is what I meant exactly. Furthermore, I have a question for you. Why did Hermione feel she needed Ginny and Ron's support? I'll tell you what I think. Because she knew exactly how Harry would react if she came in there talking about what was wrong with him, and then Harry would be angry with her, and avoid her too.

So yes, it was a trick. A trick made possible by how close Harry and Hermione are. She obviously knows his personality very well. I still don't see how it shows that Harry has feelings for her, or vice verse. I tried to point this out in another way when I originally addressed this, which you did not comment on. Harry did not feel any sort of "lightening of spirits" for Hermione's pressence alone. It was not until Ginny convinced him that he was not being possessed that he began to feel better, and he was not completely convinced he had not been the snake until Ron proved to him that he never left his bed.

Did Hermione plan all this? No, I don't think so. How could she in the space of time it takes for snow to melt? We know she did not know Harry's predicimant until AFTER reaching Grimmauld Place, so she couldn't have been planning it before hand. Ginny told Harry, "We wanted to talk to you Harry, but you've been avoiding us ever since we got back from the hospital-" Which means that she and Ron had both discussed the possibilities between them, and wanted to tell Harry what they thought, but couldn't.

So, what do I think this passage shows, in as few words as possible?

1. I think it shows that Harry does not feel any Romantic connection with Hermione.
2. Hermione understands her friends very well
3. Ron and Hermione CAN work together when they agree.
4. Ginny has a rather scathing wit
5. Ginny cares as much about Harry as Ron and Hermione
6. Harry is somewhat selfish and EXTREMELY selfcentered, as ALL 15 year old boys are. (I mean, he was completely rude to Hermione! Didn't even consider the fact that she had sacrificed her holiday to join the Weasleys in their time of need, and the first thing she did when getting there was try to help him!)

(Annoying, isn't it?

Anyway, I probably should have lengthened my little fan fiction section, but I did not realize someone would try to use it against me. I was trying to cut to the chase. I did not mean Hermione GREETED them with "Where's Harry?" Which is why I did not just put that on top of my dialogue, but explained my point in a paragraph.

Here's how I think it REALLY went, from start to finish.

"Hi guys!" Said Hermione, beaming widely, her cheeks still flushed from the cold, the snow caked thick on her hair.
"Hermione!" exclaimed Ron, rising to his feet, smiling back. "What are you doing here? I thought you were on holiday with your parents? Weren't you going to go sliding?" Ron could not contain a giggle at the mental image of people sliding down a mountain with sticks strapped to their feet.
"It's skiing. Honestly. You really should take Muggle Studies. I came as soon as I could. I'm so sorry about your dad! How is he?"
Ron sighed, his shoulders slumping. "He's alright now, but they won't let him leave the hospital."
"Oh no! Why not?"
"They think there was something in the snake's venom that keeps wounds from healing," Ginny chimed in. "None of the spells they know will work. They say its only a matter of time before they find the right one, and then he'll be as good as new."
"Oh! That's great!"
"Yeah," muttered Ron, "it's not him that's got the problem though."
"Yeah, it's Harry," said Ginny, just as darkly.
"Where is Harry?" Hermione asked, looking around the room as if expecting to find him lying on the floor between the beds.
"Um. . . I don't know. He's been spending alot of time alone, lately," says Ron, avoiding Hermione's eyes.
"What he means is that he's been hiding from us since we got back from visiting Dad in the hospital," says Ginny, with a piercing sidelong look at her brother.
Ron turned a bit pink, but still wouldn't look up from his shoes.
"Whatever for?"
"Well," sighed Ron, now gazing intently at a motheaten hole in the carpet. "He reckons it was him bit dad. He thinks he was the snake."
"That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!"
"I know," Ginny nodded enthusiastically. "I could tell him he wasn't possessed. After all, I'm the only one that has been."
"Yeah, and I know he didn't leave his bed, I saw him thrashing around a few minutes before I could wake him up!" interjected Ron.
"All right. You guys wait here. I'll get him to come down here, he should be surprised enough to see me that he'll come along alright-"
"I don't know. He's been avoiding everyone even Sirius," said Ron glummly.
"Hello, Hermione dear!" Everyone turned as Mrs. Weasley backed through the door with a plate of sandwiches. "I made these as soon as I heard the bell. Dumbledore told me you'd be along soon." Mrs. Weasley gave her a quick hug. "Thank you so much for coming. It will mean so much to Arthur!"
"It was no problem, Mrs. Weasley, honest. I just had to make sure he was allright."
"Thank you, dear." Mrs. Weasley wiped a tear from her eye and gave Hermione another hug, squeezing her tight. "But look at you! You must be freezing! You've still snow in your hair! All this bother, I just haven't been myself lately! My manners have all gone to rust with worry!" She pulled her wand from her apron and pointed it at the fireplace, which sprang to life with a merry crackle. "There. Now you sit down and warm yourself! And have a bite to eat too. You're too skinny! I've got some things to do in the kitchen, we'll be eating dinner soon. Those sandwitches should tide you over. I'll leave you all alone for now. We'll go visit Arthur soon, dear."
Mrs. Weasley blew out of the room as suddenly as she came.
"Where is he?" Hermione demands briskly.

As we were not privy to this conversation, we'll never know if it happened EXACTLY like that. But I think I covered all the points that we DO know, and as Harry said it took "a few minutes" before someone "hammered on his door" a conversation very like this one could have taken place. Infact, it MUST have taken place. I think you will find that all of that would only take a few minutes to say. All the descriptions of their actions (while they may take a few seconds to read) happen instantaneously, and even as they're speaking.

Dana,
Was that a jab to tell me to go read the rules? lol. Am I still breaking any?

I do believe that we've had this discussion before. That is the preferred format on these boards and so far you are the only one to complain about it. That's how debates go usually - someone makes a point, the other produces a counter argument and so forth until the mediator (or moderator) decides the points been done to death and moves it on. That's not always possible in forums because of their very nature, so the points have to be addressed in the way that snoopy did it. Don't take such personal offence over it. Okay, you don't like your arguments being chopped up, but that's the way it's done here, I'm afraid. You post whatever you like, but it's unfair of you to expect people to bend to your preferences - that's why we have the system in place that we do.

Yep, I did jump on double posting for very good reasons, and I shall do again...Snoopy, as Weasel King said, please use the edit button - I just think that people begin to panic if they don't get a reply straight away. Give it a couple of days before you panic guys - people do have lives outside of this place, plus there's a little thing called time zones, so give people a chance to reply before you go rupturing an artery over it, okay?

Secondly, let me state once and for all that it is HIGHLY unlikely that ANYONE on these boards could get away with editing their posts - especially if it refers to a particular argument - and get away with it. THE MODS ON THIS BOARD, BETWEEN US ALL, READ EVERY SINGLE WORD THAT'S POSTED, WHETHER OR NOT YOU SEE US REPLY, SO BE WARNED.

Speaking for myself at least, I have an excellent memory and I can pretty much pick it out straight away if someone has edited something, not to mention that I'm pretty sure, should a dispute over it arise, that Matthew could check to see who's been editing what. If I did catch anyone doing such a thing, their butts would be kicked off these boards faster than they could say Quidditch....I hope that's perfectly clear.

Come on now, I really do think that is getting a little oversensitive. Nothing is meant as a personal attack - no one can be responsible for the way that you react to something that's been said. I am quite sure that wasn't Snoopy's intention. That's the essence of debate...pointing out flaws in another's arguments and that may or may not be based on the text, but more on interpretations of it - all of which are subjective and if I let you guys argue about that, you'd still be here way beyond book seven.

Now then, give each other a big hug, remember that we're all on the same side here and just reign it in a little, okay?

lol . . . Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Dana,

The part about it that I don't like, is that they often misinterpret what I am saying, and I can see how they could do it by only reading that one paragraph before responding as I often make points in two or three, or even whole posts! At some point I may be saying something simply to show what I am leading up to. Also, that system puts people in the mindset of analyzing each paragraph, rather than reading through the entire thing first, going back and finding the arguments they don't agree with, or don't understand what I'm getting at, and responding to them. That is 90% of why I found that particular argument of PheonixEffect's so offensive. Because I could tell that they would read one paragraph, copy it, respond, and read another, etc. (The other 10% that I took offense at was that they actually were offensive. lol.)

Basically, they are not following the "point by point" format by simply copying one paragraph, as it generally takes me much more than just one paragraph to make a point, because each of my posts only makes ONE point, just from many different angles.

Which is why I have been telling everyone to just copy the one sentance that states the point they believe I am trying to make (because each point of my evidence HAS such a sentance) and respond to that. It will not only make the posts shorter, but will cause people to have to actually read the posts as intended, rather than taking each paragraph as an entire argument.

From now on I will go back and try to make the sentances to which I am referring bold. If people just copy those, it will make their posts shorter, it will make me happy, their job easier, and we can actually get down to showing some proof to back our opinions. It makes my task harder, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice in the name of debate! I will do anything I possibly can to help others make a stronger argument. Because only by debating a subject from many different angles, can we come to an understanding.

I don't think I made any new arguments in this statement, only asked for others to make theirs, so the stuff in Bold is already there.

Snape separated them because they were all talking about too each other. Nothing to do with the article. It was simply because they were all talking.

Otherwise the post was good and made sense so I congratulate Michelley pie on writing it.
Now,this is probably overanalysing and everything, and getting seriously too far into it, but this quote

I can't remember who wrote it but anyway. The fact is, they both are not necessarily having the time of there lives, because they are together. It may be simply because they happen to be on their first trip to Hogsmeade. They were, for the first time seeing the post office, and Zonkos and that lolly shop, whatever it's called, and drinking butterbeer, so that is what made them "have the time of there lives." Whereas when h/hr go to Hogsmede, they've already been there a few times so as have nothing to be overjoyed about. Also, Harry was in a pretty pathetic mood, to enjoy any of that month.

Also, quite a lot of people say, as their main argument, that, since Harry hasn’t shown any interest in Hermione as of yet, it is unlikely that they will make it as a couple. Except, the fact is, your saying harry has no chance of having a nice solid relationship with anyone. As he’s shown no attraction to either Ginny or Luna either. Of course, he could come across someone else completely, but I feel that it is kind of too late to build a solid relationship in just too years. Because that is what im hoping for, as long as Harry survives the seventh book, that he will be, at the end, in a nice solid, serious relationship with someone. So really, are you r/hr shippers out there saying, that since Harry has shown no attraction to Hermione yet, he is just about destined to be alone? That’s kind of sad, as I’m the sort of person that hates it when the hero is always the one that lives a depressing life all alone. My favourite character is always the hero.

Another thing I want to point out. As I was reading OotP again, and on page 602, I noticed something.

I’m not really sure about this scene, but it kind of gives me a feeling that Hermione is keeping tabs on Harry/Cho relationship. It’s a bit farfetched, but Hermione is smart enough to know that Harry’s relationship with Cho is not going so well at the moment, so why does she bring it up? I find it a bit weird. It’s like she wanted to here that grunt.

One last thing, just pointing out, that maybe the reason that Hermione doesn’t get seriously jealous of Harry and Cho ship, might be because she is clever enough to know that the relationship is only skin deep! She doesn’t need to get all in a hype about it, because she can see that it won’t last long. She’s not Ron remember.

lol anyway. going to much into it but couldn't help myself
Weaselking, sorry that no one is commenting/debating some of your work, but i don't think i can find too much wrong with it. Maybe some other time ill look at it properly.

Because it's boring, for one thing and completely unnecessary for another. Particular passages in the books, if they're huge, can be referred to. I'm presuming that most people actually have the books, seeing as how they're on this forum. Secondly, the point-by-point basis for arguments doesn't need huge passages to be quoted - just the last couple of sentences or something for references and maybe a link to that post so people can read more if they want to.

BTW, I hope that little quip about the mods wasn't meant to be a subtle dig because I'm really trying hard not to be biased here and, if y'all have read the earlier part of this thread, you'll see that I'm kind of touchy about that issue. If I did jump on R/Hr shippers at the beginning, then that's purely because they were the ones who were being the most aggressive and didn't read the rules before they started posting. This 'they' did this and 'they' did that business really ticked me off, quite frankly. There's a whole history surrounding this particular issue which you can read about in the Debate Vs Confrontation thread and the earlier part of the H/Hr thread (which effectively died at one point because so many R/Hr shippers were attacking that the H/Hr shippers stopped posting).

If anyone would like to accuse me of being biased, then I'd really appreciate it if you actually had the guts to PM me directly about it - or even do it publicly in the 'Debate Vs Confrontation' thread if you prefer, I'm perfectly prepared to discuss it and it's far less likely to get me rattled than subtle-as-sledgehammer jibes in this thread.

Now then, this really is it - I'm going to start losing my patience here if the discussions don't start getting back to the debate itself. I'm going to delete any posts that don't contribute to the actual debate that this thread was created for. If you'd like to continue this justification of style of posting argument, then do so in the Debate Vs Confrontation thread, okay?

pg. 683 Scholastic hb. ed.

I took this quote in a very different way than you. But then I wasn't looking for anything shippy when I read it, so probably missed out on that. It occurs during the chapter "Grawp" of OotP, before the match between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw where Ron finally shows his potential. (And Harry and Hermione miss it. lol) Luna Lovegood walks by with her flapping Eagle hat (rather than the roaring Lion she normally wears to Gryffindor matches) which causes Hermione to realize that Gryffindor will be playing Ravenclaw, and reminds her that Cho is the Ravenclaw Seeker. She knows Harry has a thing with her (and also that it is not going so well at this point) so she blurts it out.

Now, if she REALLY knew that Cho was going to be playing, then her sudden realization was feigned and she really was trying to gauge Harry's reaction to it. Otherwise, it was simply a statement, that she said before thinking, and they dropped the subject immediately afterward. Once again, it can be taken both ways.

Snoopy,
I don't expect the debate to move forward if people don't answer my posts. If you look back, you will notice that no one has. A few people have made points, and I was able to respond. Mostly, though, people have been disecting my points, trying to make them look weaker than they are, without making a case of their own. The only way to respond to that is to defend points I had already made. There is no reason to copy someone's entire post, especially when it is one or two posts up. It is far simpler to refer to those points you have questions or comments about, and make a strong case for why you see them in a different light. I've tried to show examples of that in my own posts. Here's one now.

That is exactly what I was trying to do. I was trying to get Bandoh back into the discussion. They responded to one of my arguments by saying that Hermione was lying about the letter she was writing to Krum. That it wasn't to Krum at all, and she was only using it as an excuse to hide her feelings from Harry. To which I responded, "if your only case is that JK is lying to us, then it is no case at all."

They have not left any arguments since. For which I can only assume A. that is the extent of their case. B. they are searching for others, or C. They really hate me, and are waiting for me to go away! lol.

I was trying to show that a case could be made for Hermione lying unnecissarily, which would turn one of my telling points into just another item that could be taken both ways. But I honestly believe that the letter was to Krum, and that Hermione was honestly trying to help Harry with his problems with Cho. I mean, she wouldn't let Ron see the letter, right? Big deal. How many of you allow others to read your personal correspondance to someone else? Especially when that person is jealous of the person to whom you're writing, and constantly ribbing you about being in love with "Vicky?"

*Shrug* Besides, Hermione was working on the letter before Harry ever even arrived. She couldn't have known anything was going to happen with Cho until she saw Harry's reaction, and the Weasel King! picked up on that first. (While Hermione was engrossed in her letter, by the way.)

I agree with the points you made to Esrb99. At least, Hermione is waiting for the guy to make the first move. It's something I've been saying all along. At this juncture, who do you think is more likely to move first? Ron, who JK has been gradually building his realization that he is in love with Hermione for a book and a half? Or Harry, who has yet to show a sign of interest in her on that level?

But I don't know about Harry and Ginny either. They have become closer since OotP, but there is still no romantic interest on Harry's part. While Hermione says Ginny gave up on him ages ago, there is one passage of the book that shows that she may still be harboring feelings for him.

But that is off topic, and I'll wait for Dana's permission before I go posting it.

By the way, Dana, I never thought of you as biased at all. I didn't even know what your views on the matter were. Trust me, if I did think so, I'd be shouting, "Blatant corruption!" from the rooftops. In the posts I had read from you on this Board, you always said you wouldn't get into it until it got nasty, or you'd keep your views to yourself for the time being. They offered no clues as to which way you were slanting. (and most of them were pretty funny.)

(Hope highlighting the main points of my arguments helps! I just can't seem to follow the listing format. It sort of ruins my style. I write like I talk in my head, and I don't list items in my head, but sort of work them out by debating myself! Sorry, that's the best I can do. Hmmmm.... I changed the color too, because it doesn't show up very well.)
(from now on, I'll be making the color gray. That shows up a bit too well! lol)

Even if harry finds any girl good-looking now,he will definitely keep that in mind,and choose the one who is pretty on the inside instead.

Weasel King,
You have a fair point when you say that hermione wasn't supposed to know something happened between harry/cho when she was writing the letter which she was doing even before harry arrived.But let me point out something else to you-

Hermione wasn't supposed to know,right?well then,how did she guess it correctly here?
Your take on this issue is something like this-Hermione din't know something happened between harry and cho,so how can she pretend to write a letter to make harry jealous?am I right?
Now let me give you my take on this issue-
Guessing from harry's absence,hermione realised it was something to do with cho.So she took up the letter to refrain from discussing their(harry/cho) relationship.Harry came back and she immediately guessedthe reason for his coming late.She busied herself with the letter even more.But then she realized that her take on the issue was important to the boys,so with a sigh,she began explaining.
Also,hermione was writing the letter before harry came,so why din't ron ask hermione about the letter then?this leads me to conclude that hermione busied herself with letter even more when harry came as it caught ron's attention then.And you said that ron realized the problem first.The thing is that ron merely asked harry the reason for his delay ,whereas hermione got onto the problem first.The cho kiss scene IMO was made to look pro-heron but it actually favours harmony.Hermione's interactions with cho are something that clearly point out her feelings for harry. And don't sudden differences in hermione's tones point out nervousness regarding harry/cho?

I don't see how Hermione pointing out that Cho may like him just as much as Harry likes her could be twisted into Hermione liking Harry. She says it in a friendly, almost teasing manner, "smiling slightly" as she says it. My proof that Hermione only sees Harry as a friend lies largely in the fact that she honestly tries to help Harry with Cho. An argument to which H/Hr shippers respond by saying she was hiding her feelings for Harry by looking at the "letter" even claiming that it wasn't a letter at all, but an excuse.

While I myself have made the case against me that Hermione sometimes lies unnecisarily, it seems she uses these lies only as a means of expiditing some situation. What I mean is, she lies when the truth would take too long to explain, and by lying she can achieve the same ends without causing any harm. It seems to me that H/Hr shippers want to paint Hermione as a habitual liar, who sneaks around and manipulates people. Something which I think only hurts your case.

As for why Ron didn't ask about the letter before. . . How would we know about it if he did? Everything important that JK wants us to know about has to happen in Harry's presence. This was another opportunity to point out Ron's jealousy of Viktor Krum. Also, the new tack he is taking in his relationship with Hermione. Rather than start teasing her about Viktor, he shuts up and sits in disgruntled silence. Knowing that at this point, starting a fight about Viktor can only hurt his chances.

(of course, I don't think Ron even realizes that he is in love with her yet.) Which would explain JK's comment. "he doesn't even realize what is happening to him yet. Typical boy." (not an exact quote, but that was the general idea.)

It was really farfetched. I just came across it and thought…hmmm. Possible maybe. Anyway.
I think we can guarantee that the letter Hermione was writing was definitely to krum. In anycase, I doubt we’ll ever find out otherwise. It is too trivial for JK to bother bringing up again.

ahh, i remember putting down something before about this. SOmething like, maybe Hermione is all positive about this relationship is because she knows that it won't continue and that the relationship is only skin deep. Maybe she's even pushing it because she's hoping that, the closer he gets with her, the more he realizes he dosn't really like her. It could be discribed in that passage,

pg 406, OotP, i can't be bothered putting in the whole passage so ill just sum it up here. Hermione asks him whether he's going to see her again, he says that he'll have to, because of the DA. Hermione points out that she actually meant, going on a date and then says that he'll have pleanty of opportunities to ask her. I sort of feel that she's pressuring him into it, maybe she's simply thinking, the quicker it starts, the sooner it finishes.

Now bringing up my own points.
I came up with something before and posted it, but for the life of me I can’t remember what happened to it. It is either that I’ve missed it, I put it in a different thread, or it was deleated because I was using netspeak. Anyway, if you have already read this point before, I apologise.
What I wanted to say was that in GoF, you notice that Ron wasn’t angry until he found out that it was Krum, that Hermione was going out with. Like, he found out that Hermione was already going with someone, but didn’t spark up at it until he saw it was krum!! You could say that it was because he couldn’t very well get angry at her for going with someone else, and he was bidding his time for the night, so that he could find out who it was, and then get angry, and say that there was something wrong with the guy. But then I always felt that Ron never really had any subtlety, and that he’d blurt it out without thinking.

Anyway, I feel that this point shows that, though Ron still likes Hermione, and is jealous that she’s going with someone else, maybe some of the anger was also directed at the fact that Hermione was going out with his idol. So that, under normal circumstances, Ron wouldn’t feel so passionately about it.

Alright, catch ya later.