Sirren and I have been working on this for a while. Here is what we have come up with. I would like to come up with more supporting facts from the books but don't have time. Here is what we have. (Hope it's in the right place )

Let the fun begin!!!!!



DD knew the only way the prophecy would come true is if LV acted on it. He knew the prophecy had to play out once it was set in motion by LV. If it was stopped then nothing would stop LV. DD chose Harry to fulfill the prophecy once he knew it had been set in motion (not LV). He may not have known what the outcome would be (James and Lilly dying). But he knew that Harry would not die because of the Prophecy. He was there the night James and Lilly died.

Early 1980 DD hears prophecy. Snape, recently out of Hogworts, known DE hears ½ of it? Although DD does not believe in divination, per se he realizes that if Snape tells LV, LV could act on it and make it so. DD needs to come up with a contingency plan.

DD hires Sybil to keep her and the prophecy safe.
DD begins to research who the boy could be and develops a loose plan.



Snape goes to LV and they search for the likely candidate(s). LV knows that he doesn’t know the whole prophecy but figures if he kills the person as an infant it will be easy and the rest of the prophecy will be null and void.

Peter is a spy (according to the accusation hurled at him by Sirius, in PoA, ‘for several years’). He would have known about the Potters expecting a baby and told LV. Probably without thinking or knowing why LV wanted to know.

Alice Longbottom is a gifted Auror. She would have had to take some time off being pregnant so the DEs would have noticed and reported to LV.
(I’m sure LV would have had other ways to find out but these seem to be the easiest)

When they discover that Lilly Potter is one of the women about to have a baby and Snape realizes she is in danger he goes to DD to tell him what has happened and is about to happen.

1981 September (?) Severus Snape is hired by DD as Potions Master…This means he has told DD about telling LV about the prophecy and that LV will be coming for the Potters.
Snape also tells DD that Peter is a spy. (DD tells no one else).

PoA “The Marauder’s Map”

DD realizes that the problem is real.
Contacts James and sends them into hiding,
James gives the cloak to DD to give to the Longbottoms- speculation
I have been able to find nothing about the Longbottoms going into hiding. (I originally thought I had read that they had refused to hide and went hunting for DEs instead but can’t find that now.)
I maintain that DD chose Harry and therefore the Potters.
DD wanted to make sure he had control.
He picked the boy. The boy HE could control. He stood by while circumstances unfolded.
Snape and DD are now in this together.

DD recommends the Potters have a secret keeper and do the Fidelius charm. DD recommends himself knowing the Potters don’t want to endanger him or Hogwarts. They choose Sirius. Sirius figures that is a no brainer and LV will come looking for him first. He doesn’t want to be tortured into giving up the info so he recommends Peter, the least likely to be trusted, of the bunch. (Boy was he right).

Oct 24th ish: Peter becomes secret keeper for the Potters. He then tells LV. According to Peter it was tortured out of him-PoA shrieking shack. Since he didn’t tell LV that day perhaps he did try to keep it a secret but barely lasted a week.

LV thinks that DD knows which child and therefore goes after Harry.

Oct 31st LV goes after the Potters.
The Potters thought they were in hiding and would be safe with a secret keeper and all. Snape got wind of the attack (since he is a spy now) and warned DD.

PoA, chapter “The Marauder’s Map”






DD goes to GH and witnessed the massacre. He was unable to stop it because the prophecy had been set in motion and had to be fulfilled. He stood by while the Potters tried to stop LV and were killed.

HBP



He saw what happened, knew where LV went and could hypothesize over what saved Harry. He contacted Hagrid to get Harry and went off to discuss with Snape what happened. He also needed to prepare things for the rest of Harry’s life.

Hagrid met Sirius at GH after Sirius had gone looking for Peter and figured there was trouble. Sirius gave Hagrid his motorcycle. Since Hagrid had no other means of transportation he was not expected at the Dursley’s for a while. He took Harry for a ride. (We know how Hagrid loves Harry and he knew he wouldn’t see him for a while. Hagrid probably also felt close to Harry, they are both orphans. Hagrid lost his mother early in life too. ) DD wanted to make sure that Harry wasn’t there until he could get his protections in place. He also wanted to make sure no one was looking for Harry there.

He placed Harry with people who would not spoil him, as per what he said in the PS/SS when questioned by Professor McGonagall. He also knew that he needed to place Harry with Petunia because of the blood protection.

As stated in the beginning of PS/SS in the narrator’s voice Petunia wanted no reminders of her sister or her sister’s strange chosen world. She had not seen her in years and never talked about her. She resented Harry because he represented her sister, the world she came from and the inconvenience of having to raise him (a wizard) after Lilly’s death. She did not take DDs instructions to heart and treated him like a slave (or house elf ;-} ) because of that resentment.

DD took Harry from the time of school and controlled everything. He spoon-fed Harry with information, experiences, schooling, etc. to prepare him for the task at hand. He, himself, has said he held things back.

Harry, in SS/PS said he thought DD taught them just enough to get them through the task of stopping LV.

DD did fall pray to sentimentality and emotion and didn’t follow his plan to the T because he fell in love with Harry. Meaning he got attached. He is turning Harry into a killer and this bothers DD.

When Harry was ready, he cut ties and set the rest of his plan into action.

DD was the one who pointed out how alike LV and Harry were in their parentage. DD made sure that Harry had similar experiences in his life. He wanted to make sure that Harry could relate to LV and possibly feel sympathy and maybe empathy for him. These emotions and Harry’s capacity to love would be the only way he could beat LV.

Snape has the same parentage, had a horrible father, and a horrible childhood because of it. Why didn’t DD point all this out? It didn’t matter. It might have softened Harry to Snape. DD had to give Harry the information he needed to kill LV.

Why not have Harry trust Snape? Because they needed a spy and if anyone knew Snape was anything more or less than meets the eye his security would be compromised.

Why pick Harry and not Neville? Harry was more akin to LV. He had no relatives who could step in and ruin the plan.

There have been many strange and seemingly unconnected things that DD has told, shown or caused to happen to Harry. They will come together in HPDH to prove out that this has all been DDs plan from the beginning.

DD wants to make sure Harry knows about the “power the Dark Lord knows not...the power to vanquish the Dark Lord” If he’d left him on his own, in a wizarding family, Harry would not know the love, compassion, sympathy and empathy he will need to defeat the “Dark Lord”

heya thatsproffesortoyou--

i have read through the whole thing the only thing is that what id this all about...i dont really get what you mean.. i know it's all about what DD thought and stuff but what exactly do you want answes to???

xxx
hermione

ROFLOL

Well that's what I get for starting the idea on another thread. On the Invisibility Cloak thread we were talking about why DD had the cloak before James died.

We were talking about DDs delerious comments when he was drinking the potion in the cave and it sounding like he was at the Hollows the night Lilly and James died and did nothing.

We maintain that he was indeed there and let things happen because he chose Harry to fulfill the prophecy. He had a plan and orchestrated everything as soon as he knew LV was going to make the Prophecy come true.

DD caused everything to happen to Harry.

Cris

I like the idea professor. I think a few hundred posts might fine tune things a bit, but I like the general idea. If DD stood by while everything went down in GH, WOW!, pretty strong constitution on old dumbly. He wouldn't need the cloak obviously, but interesting him even being there. I think LV hedged his bets by sending the DE's to the Longbottoms and torturing them into the loony bin.

In the prophecy, those who had defied him thrice. Did the potters do this, did the longbottoms do this? Like to know a little more about that.

Well, I'll quit talking and wait for posts on this. Very interesting thought!

Good post/theory. I'll try to add some if I can, or debate against or for

I don't think what Dumbledore said in the cave can relate to what you said originally happened. After reading it again:



It sounds as if something has already happened, or maybe someone is being tortured in front of somebody and the person doesn't want that to happen. I can't really tell what is going on in that quote, to be honest, though. The way I see it, the only way it fits into your guys's theory is if he's lamenting about it afterwards and something else is taking place to cause him to start saying "Hurt me instead...kill me!" and all that. Sorry for the confusion, I'll think of something better later in that respect.

I do think there is a master plan or what have you, too. I don't think that Dumbledore was there to actually see Voldemort kill Lily and James and go after Harry. Just my opinion. He may have pulled the strings for certain things to happen but I can't imagine that he was there and did nothing, even if he wanted the prophecy to come true. However, even he says that the prophecy does not matter because it was merely a choice, or something like that. Voldemort chose to act on it. Had he not, then everything would be different but he'd still have Horcruxes. I would think that eventually Dumbledore would figure out he has Horcruxes and start to destroy them. I guess thats for another topic.

I like to think that he had been pulling the strings as puppet master so that all the events would come together to show that he was molding Harry into a Voldemort stopper, but I don't think its moral. It would mean that he allowed all the deaths, torment (mentally and physically), and a host of other evil things to ocurr just to shape the life of one person into stopping Voldemort. He could have done that without all the deaths, in fact, he could have done it on his own.

I suppose the prophecy did indeed set this off. The only way that Voldemort got weakened for some time was because he acted on it. I'll get more into that later, its kind of late here and I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this

El Barto: Yes, that was my original assumption, too.

In OOTP pg. 838 Dumbledore says this, "Do you see Harry? Do you see the flaw in my brilliant plan now? I had fallen into the trap I had foreseen, that I had told myself I could avoid, that I must avoid. ... I cared about you too much, I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects those fools who love to act. ... What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands."

It was this portion of dialogue that had me rethinking Dumbledore's role in Harry's life from the beginning. It was why I mentioned to =thatsprofessortoyou = that I suspected Dumbledore of orchestrating the events after the prophecy. The plan is old, the growth of love Dumbledore has for Harry is newer and he has stumbled in his resolution to carry the plan to fruition.

It is this plan that causes me to believe Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders to carry the plan forward without Dumbledore's feelings for Harry getting in the way. Snape has no love for Harry, just respect for Dumbledore: he will do what he needs to do without emotion interfering.

For me, looking at the series from this perspective, it all fit together quite nicely.

Bravo Sirren, thank you for gettin my back. i couldn't put it in the right words and it was your impetus of thought that set this whole thing going.

Well said

Interesting theory! I am glad someone else thinks this way about Dumbledore. Many people see this theory and say, "Oh, no, Dumbledore would never do that, he is not like that". Well, I say differently, lol, I think that Dumbledore would do this and I strongly believe that he may have. You guys did a good job at explaining the details.

In fact, I have a master theory on the "Official HPDH Theories" that says the very same thing, and it is located here.


Again, great job!!

~Albus

Very well thought out. I too have thought that Dumbledore has most certainly had his hand in the events surrounding the prophecy more then we have be told of to this point. Out of everything that we are told of Dumbledore, we are lead to believe that he is quite the mind. And I daresay that he felt that he could better orchestrate events then to let them unfold naturally. Or let me state that differently, he thought that if he were involved, the outcome could be much more desirable. I am not so sure that it even matters that Dumbledore didn't put much stock into prophecy, he knew that LV would. And therefore, he knew that one of the children and more than likely his family would not be safe until they were dead. So naturally, he felt that he should do something. As for him actually being at Godric Hollow the night that Lilly and James were murdered, I am not so sure. But I do like the idea of the Longbottoms having the cloak (where was Neville?...I know, off topic). Dumbledore would have chosen Harry for all of the reasons that have already been mentioned here, he doesn't have any family to get in the way, he is more like LV, etc.
So then his plan got a little muddled, he began to care for Harry, like a son, a close friend, and felt a great connection to him. So the "plan" that Siren referenced... the plan was to groom Harry into the perfect opponent, but he chose not to continue. He wanted Harry to be happy and content not knowing the truth, until he could hide it no longer. It was something that he had told himself that he could not do, Harry was supposed to know what he was up against. So we know by that quote alone that Dumbledore had a specific plan for Harry.
After Dumbledore realized that his plan did not work, it is then that he really begins to arm Harry for what he is up against.
I too believe that Dumbledore chose to die to allow Harry to continue. For as I have said all along, Harry must be alone when he faces LV, and Dumbledore just knew that he would be in the way, so to speak.
I hope that wasn't too confusing, hard to get it all out properly. But I agree. that's what's important.

thatsProfessortoyou great topic really, but have you been listening to metalica lately? lol ok so seriously i your theory does have a flaw tho, you said that DD didn't regard divination then why master something like that?
but i love the theory just that little problem

No, that's not a problem at all. Dumbledore didn't put much stock in Divination, but he's not the one who has to. He knew that LV would. The most important thing about the prophecy is that LV decided to act upon it. Had he not, then it would not have mattered. Dubledore knew that as soon as LV heard that there would be a threat to his power (and immortality for that matter) he would act to find the baby, and kill him when he was a baby, and thus attempt to rid himself of the problem, but actually set the wheels in motion for the rest of the prophecy. I hope that makes sense, it doesn't matter what Dumbledore thought, it matters what LV thought and then would do.

Oh wow. cnickelson, you just set another lightbulb off in my head.

Why didn't DD detain Snape and perform a memory charm on him to keep the profecy from being told and therefore acted on? It was that simple. He could have stopped it then. (of course then there would be no story. )

He let it happen. Perhaps he realized that the only way to rid the wizarding world of LV was to create this person...Harry.

This opens the theory up even more. I origionally thought DD didn't begin to really plan until after LV started acting on the Prophecy, however now I am thinking that from the very beginning he acted on it and set it in motion.

He let Snape go to LV.


Albus, if this is in you theory, I'm sorry I haven't had time to read it. It is on my too do list. Thank Heaven it is the weekend. After I sleep 10 or more hours I might be able to tackle it.

Cris

Ok so I like the theory that DD was at GH when the Potters were murdered. I also think that maybe there were a few DE's who somehow got the better of DD and thats where the above quotes come into play. I think he was being tortured, being made to watch LV attempt to kill Harry, and was left in an unconcious state once LV had been for want of a better word destroyed. I think DD then took James's cloak concealing himself to carry out the plan that he started to put into place for Harry's protection.

I do like this theory though Cris and Sirren (sorry don't know your name)

I really think that LV went alone. As soon as he got the info from Peter he impulsively took off to rid himself of this threat. Since he was going after an infant he perceived no threat. His ego wouldn't allow it.

If any DEs went with him then why were they 'looking' for him and tortured the Longbottoms? I think they went there because they thought that is where LV would have gone. Neville was more likely a threat to them because he is a pureblood. Harry was inferior and inconsequential because he is a half blood.

I thought Peter might have gone with him - LV dragging him along in case his info was incorrect- but now I think that Peter was in no shape to travel after LV got his information. (following along with how DD 'persuaded' people to give him memories )

I really think LV was alone.

We may not know the full meaning of DDs rantings until the book comes out, but I am still working on it.

Cris

I agree that LV would have gone alone, and Dumbledore would not have been tortured by death eaters. It just doesn't seem to fit. Why would we not know, wouldn't that be something that the Death Eater would be quite proud of? And why would he be spared when the Longbottms were tortured mad? It seems as though if they had Dumbledore at their mercy they would have done much worse, and it wouldn't be a secret. I used to think that the rantings were an effect of the potion, but now I am beginning to see how they fit into this context. I find it entirely possible that Dumbledore was there that night (invisible of course). Oh that's another thing, JKR has made it very well known that Dumbledore does not need the cloak to be invisible, so how would they find him if there were Death Eaters there?
I agree thatsprofessortoyou, I find it hard to believe that he would have taken Death Eaters with him. We have seen to this point that LV is a very independent and proud person, meaning that he would not think that he needed help from anyone, and would want to do it by himself. After all, he was killing a baby...what could go wrong? I am not sure about the Longbottoms. Do we have a time line for when they were tortured? I don't remember. I am split on the issue. I do think that it is possible that they had the cloak and had Neville hidden, as they to knew that he was in danger. But I am unsure if LV would have sent the Death Eaters there, after he had decided that Harry was the threat or not. I have two feeling about this. 1) If the puppet master theory is correct, it seems entirely probable that LV would have gone after the one that Dumbledore hid. Dumbledore is the only one that LV thought was even close to his intelligence. So if Dumbledore was hiding one and not the other, then it seems like a sure deal. 2) LV did think that he was the greatest thing since sliced bread, so if he was so brilliant to glean that Harry was the one to go, then there would be no need to fool with Neville.
But then again, if the Death Eaters just went to the Longbottoms to find LV because they thought that he would be there, why would they torture them once they learned that LV wasn't there. I was under the impression that they didn't really act on their own. But it is also safe to say that LV likes insurance policies (Horcruxes), so he may have sent them there just to be sure. And heck, if they had thrice defied him too, then he really ought to do something about them at some point anyway.
I guess I really need to know if the death of the potters and the tortchure of the Longbottoms were concurrent events before I can make any solid judgements about that one.

from HP-Lexicon timelines


It didn't happen the next day. They were lost and looking for their leader. Frank and Alice were Aurors and may have taken LV at some point or if he had gone there to kill their child they may have done something with him. Even if the Longbottoms had nothing to do with his disappearance they figured that if the Order or the Ministry had done something secret with LV the Longbottoms would know.

Not many knew what exactly happened that night. As a matter of fact only LV and DD knew what happened. Remember no one knows how LV was defeated by a baby.

Cris

Okay, I get it then, the Death Eaters were just desperate. That makes more sense then now that you have provided that timeline. Thank you.
Then in response to your earlier post, I totally agree with you there. He (Dumbledore) let it happen, he wanted it to happen. Perhaps that is why he was really so distraught when he tells Harry that his plan has gone astray. Dumbledore, not Snape is responsible for everything. Dumbledore let Snape go because he knew what would happen. Good thoughts. Totally makes sense.
I just had another thought. Could this perhaps be why there has been such a big deal made out of Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore? Will Harry learn this information and be expected to understand? That would be huge! That's why he's supposed to not hate Snape, kind of. Snape could have been stopped. Of course, why didn't I see it before.

There is no doubt that there wereno DE's putting DD under any spell, they would have killed him to put LV over the top as most powerful Wizard. I have a prob with DD being in GH in real time and not acting in any way. It would be awfully hard for him to watch this event live and not act. There was mention of a possible time turner which I like because he would actually see what happened without the complication of having to be there. Also don't youthink that LV and DD would be able to sense when the other was in their presence? I like the idea that the DE's would have gone to Longbottoms because that would have made more sense on the face of things - pureblood, aurors who probably would have thwarted LV at some point. The tortured the parents while waiting for LV and it just kind of went on too far.

The puppet master theory does seem to answer a lot of questions/rumors that puzzle us though. It would show that DD had a life plan in place and that knowing HP and loving him like a son, screwed those plans up. I like it!!

In retrospect, then, I would have to say that it does seem a little of a stretch, DD being set upon by DE's, I guess I was trying to find a reason for his rambling in the cave in HBP. But I don't have the problem with DD being in GH that night. I think that he thought that by forwarning Lily and James that enough would be done to protect themselves and Harry, and he was so intent on letting events run as per the prophecy that he was not in a position to defend tham. He had no choice at the time to stand back and let them be murdered. He could hardly have jumped out of the shadows at the eleventh hour if his plan had been to lead LV to Harry.

I always had a feeling at the back of my mind that DD had made a huge blunder where Harry was concerned, more than just not telling him about the prophecy.

BRAVO to =thatsprofessortoyou= for her wonderful follow-up!

No, I don't believe DD was bothered by DEs either. However, if the potion made the drinker revisit their worst memory, perhaps DD watching the massacre at the Potter's place, while standing by invisible, was his worst memory. Considering his age, that might be a stretch, yet maybe it was.

Awesome thought concerning Snape: he was caught, why not stop him, charm him, keep him, etc.? I never thought of that before. Fits well, too!

To add on after having my thought on Regulus (see Voldemort's Secret thread), I suspect DD let Snape go back to LV because LV had more people in his web that matter to the conclusion of the series, than it seems on the surface.

I guess its possible to look at this point (which will come up in a second) in two different ways.

The point or event which led Dumbledore to hide the Potters' but not the Longbottoms'.

In my opinion, it comes down to two things. Dumbledore either had inside knowledge that Voldemort was already tracking down the Potters' and cared less about the Longbottoms' (maybe because of thier similarities in magical blood or what have you), or Dumbledore hid them so that Voldemort would find them, which would be ironic.

About the Lestranges torturing the Longbottoms: They could have been desperate, but why torture for the whereabouts of your leader if he was supposed to have been dead. I agree that only Dumbledore and Voldemort actually know what happened behind the scenes (Voldemort finding out later of course), but I suspect several people knew that he was still alive. Reading each book before Voldemort's "rebirth" you'll find several people who say something like "...Voldemort is still out there...", or "His Death Eater's are in fear of him, they wouldn't want to disappoint him." You can find a lot of them in the Chapter succeeding the Quidditch World Cup in book 4. I won't post the quotes unless you can't find them though (don't have my book on me). Are you sure about the timeline, though?

-October 31, 1981: Potters' attacked, Voldemort's downfall
-November 1: Harry left on Durselys' doorstep early in the morning. Sirius tracks down Pettigrew.

November is right after October 31, and according to your timeline, the torture upon the Longbottom's ocurred between November and early 1982.

It is my belief that Snape actually heard the entire prophecy because when Trelawney came out of her trance she said she saw Snape. Dumbledore tells that Snape must have been waiting outside and when the prophecy was over, Aberforth brought Snape in for questioning. I think at that point, Trelawny was excused and escorted out by Aberforth and then Snape and Dumbledore discussed the course of action. Perhaps Dumbledore told Snape to tell half the prophecy to Voldemort to set the wheels in motion.

If I said he didn't plan anything then I'm sorry because I do believe he planned something. But I don't think Dumbledore wanted Lily and James to be killed. He wouldn't want anyone to be killed, of course. Maybe he told them what would happen or become of Voldemort and Harry if they were to die for the cause which is why they may have agreed. But then why hide them? Why allow them to hide? What if Dumbledore didn't want them hidden which is why he declined to be their secret keeper.

Like I said, I don't deny he didn't plan anything. I just don't think he or anyone in his position would actually go to Godric's Hollow and watch them die. I don't think anyone who knew ahead of time would hide out in a bush or go invisible and watch them die, you know? I think he just went to the Dursleys and waited for Hagrid to come, keeping watch on the home. For some strange reason he stayed out of the events he had forged and chose to be at the tail end of all things.

I think you're right about Snape hearing the entire thing, but I get the feeling that "discussing the course of action" would be too risky, because of the possibility of LV using legilimency on Snape. We know Snape is an accomplished occlumens, but I see LV as being a good enough Legilimens to overpower that. So, I think that Aberforth and DD detained Snape and DD modified his memory so that he only remembered the one half of the prophecy, not the entire thing. This would actually fit very well into the idea that DD orchestrated the entire situation, because that would manipulate the situation further to where he wanted it.

Obviously, if Snape overheard the entire thing and were to escape to LV to tell him, LV would not want to mark harry as his equal, and DD knew this.

DD played puppet master by modifying Snapes memory to manipulate LV into unknowingly marking harry as his equal.

WHen i think of DD playing puppet master, i think of this entire plan being hidden from EVERYONE. It would be too risky to put this kind of plan into action with other people knowing, so i feel that if snape did hear the entire thing, AND if DD really is playing puppet master, he would have modified snape's memory rather than discussing the plan with him.

In my opinion, I don't think Dumbledore would have modified his memory. Snape may have at that point already been a powerful enough legimens or occlumens (sp?) and they could have just stood and stared at each other having a wierd mind conversation. Just as likely, right? It could happen, not that I think it happened. But I agree with you, Snape's memory could have gotten modified.

What I mean by course of action is that Snape may have urgently wanted to tell Voldemort the prophecy, but Dumbledore detained him and told him what it could mean. Perhaps Snape was just in the Death Eaters for the sake of being there and could honestly care less about Voldemort. Maybe Dumbledore saw his troubled ways and attempted to coax him into being a spy. At this point, with his knowledge of the prophecy and what he was to do, Snape gave up half the prophecy to Voldemort (the first half).

If Snape hadn't heard the whole thing, would it be possible for Snape to go into his memory through a pensieve and go ahead of Snape in the memory to hear the whole thing (or is that a loophole?)?

Firstly, wasn't it Tom Riddle who pointed out the similarities between himself and Harry? Then afterwards, Harry relays this to DD? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'll have to check the book to clarify.

Anyway, what if the reasons DD acted the way he acted (choosing Harry as the "Chosen One, not giving Harry information when it should have been given, etc.) because of the prophecy? Maybe some underlying things of the prophecy have taken place - for example Harry's and LV's similarities - but moreso DD's part in all of this. Is it possible that because the prophecy was put into motion DD was made to act a certain way, and make certain decisions unconsciously?

I also really like the idea of a time turner. It would explain how DD was so sure when he told McGonagall what had happened. It would explain why JK has used the time turner in a previous book. I think that each book has an important theme and they will all be meshed together in the end so that we fully understand exactly what happened, when it happened and why it happened.

In response to the pensive question, I am inclined to believe that Snape could not go ahead of Snape (memory). It seems as though the memory follows only the person's actual recollection. I am basing this thought mostly on when Harry enters Snape's memory in OOTP. He deeply wanted to watch his father, but also had to keep Snape in sight. I don't know though, the more I think of it, how is it that Harry could hear their conversations and all when I am quite sure that was not something that Snape actually remembered. So I guess it may work. Interesting.
I do also like your thought about Dumbledore explaining the magnitude of the prophecy to Snape. Perhaps that is what Snape did that made Dumbledore trust him so much. he only told LV the first half of the prophecy. So how does that fit...meaning where does it go from here? Did that give Dumbledore more of an opportunity to set things the way that he wanted them?, did it buy him time?, did it simply throw LV off a bit?

I could've sworn I started a topic on Snape hearing the whole prophecy, and another one related to it, but I guess they were locked or something (that was about a year ago).

What I'm thinking is somewhat odd. Snape was there for a reason. He wasn't just casually walking around in Hogsmeade and suddenly decide to stop for a drink in the Hogshead Inn. And even then, how would he have known that Dumbledore was there to begin with if he and Trelawney were in a separate room?

My guess is that Snape was following him, and I think it may have been on Voldemort's orders. Why Snape though? I'll stop the speculation there because it goes into a lot of guesswork.

But if we go on that assumption, Snape had to return with something. Maybe that is how Voldemort trusts Snape as well. He either had to come back with Dumbledore's body (a parallel with Draco) or not return because of death or be killed (a parallel with Regulus). Maybe this is what Voldemort does with a lot of Death Eaters. So instead of returning with the death of Dumbledore, he returns with news of an even greater chance of being immortal and he acts on it (which we know is false since it will ultimately and hopefully lead to Voldemort's downfall).

But you may ask yourself why is it that Dumbledore told Harry that he and Harry are the only ones who have heard the entire prophecy? What if Snape heard everything but the tail end, which is exactly the same as the very beginning. He wouldn't be lying in that case, more like bending the truth I suppose.

azkaban's_escapee, I think Harry, Dumbledore, and Voldemort each pointed out the similarities between Voldemort and Harry at different times. Voldemort recounted this to Harry in the graveyard and then Dumbledore recounted it in the 5th book and make it more prevalent in the 6th book. Harry noticed these things too. So I guess it would be Voldemort who told Harry about their similarities first. Unless you're talking about Tom Riddle from the memory, then you're right!

DD said the one thing he wouldn't do was lie. So if he said that the only two people who heard the whole prophecy were him and Harry, then it has to be.

Perhaps Aberforth held Snape for DD to 'interogate'. They discussed it and DD persuaded Snape to change his allegence. Snape was probably disillusioned with LV because of his hipocrytical (sp?) views of bloodlines.

As I've said before, LV is a parallel to Hitler, Hitler had many devout followers who, after Hitler's true madness began to show, bacame disillusioned. Snape became unhappy with what he saw.

DD showed him the error of his ways. Snape is very intelligent, possibly as intelligent as DD (and what LV was until he started splitting himself and losing himself). Snape realized that he needed to help bring this cancer down.

They knew if LV heard the whole prophecy he would do nothing. He had to hear enough of the prophecy to make him complete it.

DD knew that he needed an inside man and Snape was the best option. He sent him back with part of the prophecy. Instructed to help LV figure it out and probably skewed it to the Potter's kid. DD knew that the baby would live because of the prophecy. He may have had no idea what would happen to the parents. HOWEVER, DD is smart and would have known that Lilly and James would have fought.

OOOHHH!!!! Snape was supposed to convince LV to spare the Potters (or at least Lilly- Snapes self interest) if they stepped aside to let him at the baby. Again, Snape and DD knew the baby would live. Maybe they should have let the Potters in on this, or they did but instinct wouldn't let them stand by......

Cris

Then if Dumbledore never lies then all of this is meaningless. He says that after the prophecy was given, they encountered somebody spying on them and they were thrown from the building. Nothing else could have happened. Otherwise he would neglect to add something in, such as 'somebody was spying on us, we had a chat, then I threw him from the building'. Nobody would do that after talking to somebody. So, in my opinion, either Dumbledore did indeed lie or was very rude to Snape and after talking to him threw him from the building.

Or we can say that Dumbeldore just bended the truth and didn't throw Snape from the building but just turned him loose. Or (sorry for all the 'ors') he had his brother do it to make it look convincing that Snape was still a Death Eater.

For both sides of a "Dumbledore lies" argument, the argument is somewhat weak. I know this post is sort of weak as well. But what do you think?

Do we know if DD knew that LV was Halfblood before what happened to the Potters. If not he may have actually set the trap for the Longbottems and that is why he said what he said in the cave he watched them being tortured. He may of found out LV was Halfblood after the Potters was killed.

El Barto, We know that DD omits lots of information, so I wouldn't say he lied about throwing Snape from the building. To make it look good for LV they would have had to do that. Remember that everything Snape has done to appear as a follower of LV has been a guise.

What I would like to know, and we probably wont know, is when did Snape master his Legilimens/Occlumens skills? Was it before this meeting with DD or after. Did DD teach him so that he could be safe as a spy or was it something Snape actively did on his own because LV was so good at it and Snape already had things to hide?

Cris

daz: yes Dumbledore was well aware of what LV's parentage was before he was even accepted to Hogwarts.
I don't think Snape was just casually walking around Hogsmeade, if I remember correctly Trelawny tells Harry that Snape was there for an interview with Dumbledore as well, perhaps that is true? (I don't remember if that is ever discounted, or if we are just supposed to not believe it)
But I do agree that Dumbledore has this habit of leaving things out, at least when it comes to Harry. It is entirely possible that he could have lied to Harry, or left out key points. THis would fit with him falling into the trap that he said that he must not fall into. If he cares to much for Harry, he would be reluctant to tell him the whole truth, such as, I am the real reason your parents are dead, etc. So I think that the Dumbledore lies argument could be valid. He did keep things from Harry that Harry may have found, er, disturbing. I am not sure that is the right word, but I think you get what I mean. And it is easily provable that Dumbledore has actively covered up things before. Such as in POA, it was he who told Harry and Hermione to ge back, and what to do (sort of) but then when he, Snape and Fudge come back into the hospital wing after the find that Black is gone, he takes the approach of plausible deniablility. He asked Madam Pomfrey if they had been in their beds the whole time, (and of course, she answered yes) and told Snape that the only way that it could have been done is if they learned to be in two places at once. So, he didn't really lie, but he sure made things seem other than the way that he knew that they were (muddled sentence). I think the point is, and you were correct, we cannot always take Dumbledore at his word and nothing more.

I found a seemingly innocuous quote when looking for something else that might help support what cnickelson and I have been trying to say.

PoA p. 285. [Harry has just told Snape that DD told him (Harry) about James saving Snapes life. It doesn't really matter]


This seemingly unimportant rant of Snapes speaks volumes to me. DD doesn't tell Harry everything. Whether he doesn't want mess up the plan, in the begining or upset Harry, later on, DD keeps details to himself.

Also, Snape is not happy with it and apparently disagrees. In his childhood Snape was never spared anything. He was not pampered or treated with respect and consideration. He doesn't think Harry should be either. Probably figures it will make him soft.

HOWEVER, Snape respects DD enough to follow along, for the most part. Snape does find ways of telling Harry some of the truths as Snape sees them, especially in regards to the Marauders.


Edited here with new stuff.
Before the prophecy was given, so earlier 1979, Snape and Regulus were working together. They realized the LV was just plain bad. They found out about the horcruxes and Regulus found the locket. He was killed because of his betrayal. Snape knows he can't do this on his own. He needs help.

He goes looking for DD and hears the prophecy, in the winter of 1979 or early 1980....The rest you know. He and DD talk and come up with a plan. He is thrown out of the Hogshead (or whatever) to make it appear that he was caught spying and he goes back to LV with 1/2 the prophecy to set things in motion.

This is why DD trusts Snape. Snape came to all of this independantly. He sought out DD for help.

Cris

That's brilliant!!!

Snape's tale of great remorse wasn't about Lily, maybe it was about Snape and how he had been deceived, used, manipulated by LV and his true intentions. Snape may have felt completely remorseful at being taken-in by LV in the first place.

The world is not split up into Death Eaters and good people (or something like that Sirius said) and Snape didn't want to be part of eradicating those that were not purebloods: he is not one either!

Maybe the remorse was that he felt immensely guilty over being duped. DD trusts Snape, because Snape IS LIVID he fell for LV's ideology at all.

He is NO coward, heck he is the bravest in the series, because he is flauting his defiance right in LV's face by playing both sides. That is amazing.

cnickelson, according to HP-Lexicon timeline Snape is not hired until 1981 or there abouts. Do you remember where Sybil says Snape was there for an interview?

I am working on additions and changes to the theory now and found that glaring inconsistancy.

Thanks
Cris

I just read that quote last night, and I too didn't think much of it until you put it into this context. So it would seem that Snape did have a hand in everything from the beginning. Wow, it all fits.
Brilliant, so in my estimation, since Snape was the only other one (probably) who knew about Dumbledore's plan, will he be the one to tell Harry? And of course Harry doesn't trust Snape. Interesting. Perhaps he will come across a memory in the pensive that confirms this to him.
This is perfect...That is why no one else would know why Dumbledore really trusts Snape. He wouldn't tell them that. That he worked with Snape to bring about the events in the prophecy. He wouldn't tell anyone...

To thatsprofessortoyou: It is in HBP right before Harry goes to meet Dumbledore when he tells him that he has found the Horcrus and Harry can go with him. Sorry, I do not remember the chapter, and I do not have a book with me at the moment. I will see if I can find it and get back to you.


It is from: The Seer Overheard

If I remember correctly, Snape was there to apply for a job at Voldemort's request to spy on Dumbledore.

If Snape and Regulus had already teamed up for the greater good, Snape was already on Dumbledore's side when the prophecy was spoken.

As I speculated earlier today, Snape's remorse could be due to the events surrounding the death of Regulus. I just wish I knew exactly when that occurred, not "some fifteen years ago" when Harry is fifteen.

It's gotta be related. Their dad was a Hogwarts headmaster and I don't think that was coincidental, more like pivotal.

I had a thought in the car. Snape still loved Lilly, that I will always hold to, he did not know the whole prophecy thing would kill Lilly until it played out so his regret was more being duped by LV and coming close to death, with his partner in sabotage (Regulus) was killed. But when his actions - as planned by himself and DD in telling LV the prophecy killed Lilly he had many reasons to hate Harry. Harry reminded him of James, whom he hated; and his (Snapes) hand in the death of Lilly whom he loved because her child, Harry had to be the Chosen one. So Snape knows he has to help the Chosen One but doesn't have to like him in the least.

I hope that came across ok. It seemed so profound in the car.

In that passage in HBP with Sybil and Harry she says "In my first interview with DD" Meaning there was another??!! So she was not hired and sent to Hogwarts immediatly??? She was contacted again after the magnitude of the plan and everything were realized??

OK so I just re read that and Sybil said that they were interrupted by Snape. So he did hear the whole Prophecy or she would not have seen him burst in - she would have been in the trance. She said he was looking for a job at the same time.

This doesn't fit with the HP-Lexicon timeline that I have been using to time out the theory. The prophecy was heard in late 1979 or early 1980. Snape was hired in 1981 according to the research and quotes.

I think that it didn't fit into the plan at that time. He had to go back and tell LV the 1/2 prophecy and begin the plan. He needed to stay there and find out as much about who would be the chosen one and what the plan was.....

Later it was better to bring Snape in as teacher. Why not DADA though?? If LV jinxed the job and he wanted Snape in the school as spy on DD why not lift the the jinx or counter it?

OOOHHHH!! Maybe it was DD who put the jinx on the job so that LV couldn't take it or send someone in to take it???


Cris

I like the theory but it does seem to make DD just too questionable a character. I guess I still prefer to see him as the one working tirelelssly to defeat Voldemort by any means, who was shaken by the death of his young friends the Potters and vowed to help their son defeat LV. Still, this theory would explain a lot.

That's just it he is using any means possible, he is shaken by the deaths, he was working tirelessly and he has vowed to help (or make) Harry defeat LV. It's all in a different light than we chose to see him.

He is not a kind grandfatherly type but a pure realist knowing what has to be done - until love gets involved that is.

Cris

No, no, no! It does fit. I was just rereading OOTP by the fire (it is snowing here); Prof. Umbridge is interviewing all the teachers, right? Well, Trelawney says she has been there for 16 years; Snape says 14! That is right on your timeline!

I missed that before. I could not recall when Snape got to Hogwarts as a teacher.

I am definitely not discounting Snape loved Lily, I just think there is more to it his great remorse story. I even specifically reread the part about Snape's Worst Memory looking for Regulus in the background of people, but found nothing other than people watching. I am still looking for .... something to bolster they were on the same side.

So the difference in time between the prophecy and when Snape was hired does fit perfectly, as well as Trewlany saying that she knew Snape was there, she would not have known if he had only overheard the first part. So why other than Dumbledore would Snape only tell LV the first part of the prophecy?
Perhaps Dumbledore had put the jinx on the job knowing full well that LV would attempt to control it. It would seem a very Dumbledore thing to do. Nothing lethal or anything that would be caused by having the job, but "unforseen circumstances" would happen. My only question to this would then be, why not lift them for Lupin. If Snape had not let slip the nature of his condition, he was perfect. Or perhaps he felt he should keep the protection in place at all times because anyone could have been put under the imperious curse. But if it was Dumbledore that put the jinx on the job, then he knew that Snape would not be with them by the end of the year (off topic, but it does signal that Dumbledore asked or knew that Snape would Kill him).
I tend to think that a reason Snape loathes Harry so much (besides his father, of course) is how "easy" things have been for him in Snape's eyes. Harry has been some what shielded from things by Dumbledore and others, while Snape has been a double agent all along. Through how hard he is on Harry during his occlumancy lessons, I think that Snape was trying to show Harry how hard that he has it, and in a way try and prove that he is too weak for the part. I am not sure if that really makes sense, but it seems right in my head.

No, I understand. Snape is jealous of Harry, He is jealous of how 'easy' Harry has had it. Snapes own childhood was so bad. His school life was not exactly fun and roses. He didn't really have anyone who wanted to mentor him or support him.

He learned everything on his own, is self taught. Harry is handed everything and has good friends and mentors. He is being trained and resisting a lot of it.

Harry also does not recognize Snape's abilities and this rankles with Snape. Especially since he is mostly self taught.

Snape is also a loner and Harry has really good friends and lots of supporters. This probably bothers Snape a lot. Kind of the silver spoon thing.

Your right, Snape probably thinks Harry is too soft and not worthy.

When Harry first meets Snape in SS, Snape refers to him as,"Harry Potter, our new...celebrity." Then, "Tut, tut,--- fame clearly isn't everything."

New celebrity? Is that referencing that in Snape's day, James was the old celebrity?

I was reading on closed threads this morning, and someone mentioned that Snape's Patronus was not revealed, because it would give too much away. That someone (I don't recall their login name) speculated that Snape was the heir of Gryffindor. Now, that doesn't make sense that he would be put in Slytherin, unless what is in your heart is the final determining factor.

What if Snape's Patronus is a Gryffin? What if Snape's childhood/family life molded him to be the loner he became? Could it be that Snape is the heir and he didn't learn it until he left Hogwarts and became a DE?

Say this is so, Harry comes to Hogwarts as the boy who survived and treated like a celebrity because of it. As a teenager Snape labeled himself the Half-Blood Prince; yes, his mom's maiden name was Prince, but what if the his self-title means more than that? Could he really be on LV's side if he is the heir of Gryffindor?

Far-fetched, I know. However, it could be another clue proving why he is loyal to DD, why he hates Harry so much, and why he is "NOT A COWARD!"

Cris, perhaps Snape NEVER was a DE; maybe he joined as DD's spy right from the beginning. In his role of duplicity, he never believed telling LV would instigate the death of Lily. If this is true, then his remorse would be a hundred fold, if he was on the good side and still managed to set the wheels in motion that killed Lily.

Sirren,
That might fit also. Snape wanted to prove to Lilly that he was worthy and joined DD in secret to help the Order, before James and Lilly got married.
He thought when she found out how brave he was and how skilled she would fall for him. Instead, while he was undercover she married James.

Snape would have need devastated but may have still had hope (Snape, hope ?) Since so many in the Order were dying. Or with the right word spoken to the right person, James could have been taken care of.

Then the prophecy happened. When he found out Lilly was pregnant and due in July he was probably devastated. He may have tried to spare Lilly his life in spilling the beans to LV (or more likely coming up with a good story about her). LV offered her her life but she refused. When Snape found this out it was double devastating. She was dead, he was doubly denied (she chose Harry over all and he didn't have a chance to win her over) and it was all his fault.

I still like the other way - where he comes up with the inside resistance independantly.

Cris

Just as a complete side note to what we have been discussing with Snape and his turn to the "good guys" and when that happened, do you think that if Snape loved Lily, and he attepted to explain his feelings to LV, so that he would not kill Lily, LV would have listened? He seems to have no compassion, so to spare someone whom is clearly in his way for another's compassion just doesn't seem to fit. I could be completely wrong on that account, but it just doesn't strike me as probable.
I am not sure that I would go as far as to say that Snape is the Heir of Gryffindor. While I too have heard that Snape's Patronus was not given because it would give too much away, I have a hard time with this one. There are a couple of reasons really, the first is that I was under the impression that a Patronus was more a reflection of your personal state at the time, and that is why Tonks' patronus had changed. The other is that I am not sure that if we know that Snape id the Heir of Gryffindor that much would change. That is to say, I do not know how the story would be affected in this way, unless it has got something to do with a Horcrux, maybe?
Perhaps his patronus is a phoenix. I think if that were known, we would all have a pretty darn good idea of whether he is good or bad.

I don't know about the importance of Snape's patronus. The number of times JKR has said he looks like a bat swooping about in his black billowing robes...that would be only fitting.

I just can't see him as the Heir. I could see DD as heir but he is dead now and that means the line would be dead (do you see Aberforth having children???) Harry is the most likely, or, hang on to your seats, Neville. Wouldn't that be too cool!!!

Cris

when James cursed Snape with Levicorpus everyone laughed and Lilly also almost started laughing. So I think that`s why Snape called her a muggle.

Why Snape hates Harry??
I think because they are so alike!! They both had difficult childhood. They both had been often misunderstood, they think the same about DADA, they both have enemys in school(JAmes and Malfoy), neither of them isn`t pureblood, and so one.
And to snape, idea that he is so alike to the son of the James whom he hated so much is certainly disgusting. And Harry just feels bad vibrations that are coming from Snape.


that would explain why LV didn`t want to kill Lilly in first place, unlike James.
But LV hates and despise love. Why would he listen to Snape?? Maybe LV had his own reasons!??


Is it really that matter who is the heir. Someone said that JKR said that it won`t be like grif.-sly. conflict all over again

What if LV gave Lily a chance and it had nothing to do with Snape? Perhaps LV sees women as weak, inferior and as only silly girls. Yes, he has Bellatrix in his DE, but she may be unique in her level of aggression. Perhaps LV told Lily to step aside, simply because he didn't feel the need to kill her, she was completely unimportant to his endeavor. When she did not, he was like, what the heck you wanna die okay I'll kill you, too. Whatever~

I keep thinking that LV attempting to spare her life is showing a clue, perhaps it is only showing that LV couldn't care about her, he only wanted James and Harry dead.

His mother was not strong enough to live for HIM, how could he possibly understand that Lily would die for Harry. His personal experience with his own mother is the direct cause for his underestimation of love as a shield.

But Lilly was a muggleborn and he think that mugglebons doesn˙t deserve to live.
And Harry became the Chosen One because of his mother(because of her he isn`t a pureblood and that`s why LV chose him over Nevill).



Yes, thats why he doesn`t understand love.