At Dumbledore's Funeral, When the flames erupt up and form his tomb or whatnot, the book says something like Harry see's a phoenix fly from the smoke or so.

Anyways, my idea is that maybe when someone dies sometimes, they can become a phoenix.

It'd be neat.

Hmm, maybe. But JKR has said that Dumbledore is definately dead. . .But, i do think the pheonix was a bit odd, maybe it was just symbolic.

In OOTP when DD took off from his office, he and Fawkes disappeared in a ball of fire...... maybe the same happened there too!
Just my thoughts!

I think Fawkes did that to show his level of devotion to Dumbledore. If his master was going to die, so was he. Although he can come back, it still is a remarkable level of loyalty. Just my thoughts.

shibby20, I think, is on the right track. I think it would be really pointless if, all of the sudden, we get that people transform into phoenixes. Yes, I think that Fawkes was honoring DD, but I think it was more than that. I mean, ideas don't die. DD died, and his body is gone, but his spirit lives on forever. I think that was the representation of a phoenix. His ideas will be reborn with the next generation.

that is what i thought before. i was so sure that DD was an animagus and he turned into the pheonix... but then JKR said he was dead for real... i was sad
it was common knowledge that DD liked pheonixes. i think that the ceremony went the way it did because it was honoring his memory. people usually leave things the deceased liked at the funeral. DD liked pheonixes, so they simply honored that.

I like the idea, of this. Everyone wants Dumbledore to come back. Jut going back to what Krissy15, i watched an interview, and someone asked does Dumbledore return? and j.k rowling simply relpied
"Well he doesn't do a Gandalf"
does this mean that Dumbledore returns in some way, and could fawkes be the link. I know it slightly sways of the point.
But ye.....

i got the impression that Dumbleore WAS and animagus, but he turned into a cat? because minerva was a cat animagus, and i thought dumbledore was one too. i'm not sure, but i' pretty sure the pheonix won't be coming back to hogwarts, just based on what harry said. like after dumbledore died, the pheonix sang his lament in mourning of dumbledore, then left, and harry said he was sure now that he wouldn't reurn [ fawkes that is]. and as for the pheonix that flew out of dumbledore when he was put into that tomb, i think that it was just like the animal that most represented him. like almost his spirt was a pheonix, which is why he had fawkes inthe first place maybe? i dont know. but as for dumbledore not pulling a gandolf, i understand because he wasn't afraid of death, like he said in HPPS "to the organized mind, death is but the next great adventure". but i think that the only way Dumbledore is returning is with his portrait in the headmasters office.

Has it ever been mentioned that a person can only have one animagus i mean what if the cat is the animagus everyone knows about and the phoenix is like a secret you know like to throw everyone off guard!... i know i would be tough but with DD i guess anythings possible !

I guess that I took that a different way than most of you. A lot of HBP is about loyalty to Dumbledore. It is represented in countless ways, with Scrimgour, with Harry not telling McGonogall about where they had been, etc. And as we will all remember from COS, the phoenix is a symbol of loyalty. I think that in DH Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore will be tested, or at least it will still be a very prominent theme. I think that the phoenix that came out of the fire was a reminder to Harry to trust Dumbledore, to remain loyal.

cnickelson:
Yeah that awesum! hmm i never thought of it that way! that could be a possibility!!

But someone please answer:-

As some people thought, i, too, believed that Dumbledore was an animagus. However then i also thought like cnickelson, because there are many things that Harry still has to go through, so in case he looses his strength or something really bad happens, he'd have the phoenix to remember his mentor and recover himself. Maybe even Fawkes comes back, who knows.

Err, Akhilpotter: I was looking through Wikipedia and when i saw the deffinition of Animagus, it says the folowing:

In the Harry Potter books, an Animagus is a wizard or witch capable of turning into a particular animal and back at will.

Becoming an Animagus is extremely difficult, and the transformation can go horribly wrong. Animagi can assume only one animal form, and that form is not chosen by them. Rather, it reflects a witch or wizard's inner nature.[1] The series features several Animagi, most famously Professor McGonagall who spends much of the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone as a cat, and Sirius Black who is originally seen in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban is his black dog form.

While in animal form, Animagi retain all sensory perception and cognition; however, their mental capabilities and feelings are lessened when transformed, becoming more like the animal [2]. Thus, an animagus when transformed becomes the animal whose form is taken, but with the added advantage of retaining some human qualities. All Animagi are required to register themselves with the Ministry of Magic. Another wizard or witch can use his/her wand to force an Animagus to transform back to human form, producing a flash of blue-white light in the process [HP3]

So i hope this helps

Interesting. Well, I wonder why you thought of a cat. I would never think of DD's nature is cat formed. Cats are intelligent, and so is DD, but cats are different, and it takes a long time to gain their trust. Dumbledore believes the best in people, especially Snape, and he trusts him. DD is always trusting people. And cats, from my experience, like to keep to themselves more, which DD doesn't do. I'm more of a dog person.

Yes, I agree with Wikipedia! An animagus reflects on what type of person you are. James was a stag, brave and beautiful, and Petigrew was... a rat! Yes, it shows your personality, and one obviously doesn't have two personalities.

thanks mrsshinoda!! Yup that totally clears it! But um i too am wondering why i thought he was a cat?? Do you remember him transforming in any of the books??

Haha nice 1 classicalravenclawwriter!



Pettigrew yeah though i would rather see him dead or something or actually I'LL TAKE Ron's suggestion for Umbridge in the OOtP: Have him fed to a box of blast ended skrewts ! I HATE HIM! (so does everyone else when i come to think of it! )

I think that the phoniex was just a symbolic thing. I think that Dumbledore was truly fascinated by fawkes, that the phoniix was just a way of remebering him.

This is in responce to the fact of Dumbledore coming back to life. We know that JKR said that Dumbledore is dead for sure. We also know that Albus Dumbledore has a brother, Aberforth. We learned in book 2 that there is a potion (polyjuice) that can allow you to take on the shape of another person. Ok, let me finish. Let's say that R.A.B. is Aberforth Dumbledore (just a guess, A.R.A.B.D). Now the note in the fake locket says that he will be dead before Voldemort can get him. Aberforth could have taken the appearance of Albus, sent the real locket to Albus, and then died. Albus could have gone to the funeral with the appearance of Aberforth. It works because Dumbledore is dead, Aberforth that is.

~Filius~

The only problem with that theory is that Dumbledore would not be dead. Aberforth would be. I believe JKR's words were, he's not going to do a Gandalf (sp?). So if he were to reappear, that is what he would be doing. So no, I do think that Dumbledore is dead - dead. And if we want to stay current with the topic, think of Fawkes' Lament. Why would he sing his song of mourning for another? I could be wrong on this one, but the way that I understand it, Phoneixes are very intelligent creatures, and I don't think that Fawkes saw Dumbledore's body, or at least there was no mention of it. He just "felt" that he was gone.

Yeah but if you read the Lord of the Rings rather than watch the movie you know that Gandalf died. He was sent back to life as Gandalf the White. Dumbledore wouldn't be pulling a Gandalf because he never died. This theory is true to everything that JKR has said. Dumbledore did die but it wasn't Albus.

Now, on topic, Fawkes may just be nothing more than a symbol of loyalty. I have nothing else to say.

~Filius~

dumbledore is dead end of.!..but yes he will be back not by doin a gandalf but we will see him and hear advice that he will give throught the portrait in the heads office thats what jkr ment by sayin he is deffinalty dead but will be back!.. the only person i can see doin a reappearing act is sirus

But where is your evidence that Albus Dumbledore is dead. We know that it is possible for a person to take the appearance of another so there is still a possibility that Albus is alive. He may even know how to fool the portraits into believing he is dead so that his portrait will appear.

~Filius~

my evidence is because jkr said he is deffinatly dead she woodnt lie like that and then bring him back in all his glory it would just be cheesey + it woodnt help with the storyline dumbledore would be too much help for harry it would almost make defeating voldy easy and harry has to do it alone..he has to be dead the only thing he feared was the safty of the students and harry and we know he had no fear of death so he did what was nesscary to protect the people he cared for..he will make an appearence but just from the portrait or pensive not in full form

I agree with nearly everything you said there. Yes, it would be cheesy (unless it is written well) and yes he could be too much help. But I have to correct you on one statement, she never said that Albus Dumbledore is dead. She just said that Dumbledore was dead. If I said Potter is dead that doesn't make Harry the only possibility. I could mean his mom or dad or someone else with that name. The thing is that JKR saying that Dumbledore is dead is a perfect way to surprise readers. So, don't get so mad at me for my opinion and you probably are right about this one. I am just stating that this is a possible theory that I believe and that there is no evidence saying that it can't happen.

~Filius~

Very interesting theory! Well, I don't know if it's likely, because Polyjuice has been a major role in books three and four. It's a possibility, but honestly I don't think that DD would sacrifice his brother. Also, maybe; maybe the muttering of DD on the island with Harry was that Abeforth was him once and bad things happened? Idk for sure. Either way, it makes you think.

I don't know if this help any at all but i just wanted to post something that i saw on another site, mugglenet.com.



and i think we're off topic from what you were originally saying guys. DD being dead or not...that's another topic right?

WoW! Great post. That gets me thinking even harder than ever and also has me believing Albus to be a live even more. That would be sooooo great to see Albus again (he is my favorite character). Ahhhh!!!! Sorry, I am Waaaaaaaaaay of topic now.

Ok, no, I don't think that Dumbledore is an animagus. He is a law abiding person and would have his name registered.

~Filius~

Well i personally will take the suggestion about the phoenix being a reminder to harry that he must remain faithful to DD! and that DD would have registered himself to be an animagus (though i don't remember ever reading a list in which we read the name of the registered animagii.... though i remember Hermione mentioning it back in PoA) that, still assuming that the animagus form might be a secret .... weapon!

Don't have HBP at hand, was the phoenix described as in it's natural state, or "corporeal?" DD's patronus was a phoenix, and he also improved the spell to make it a messenger of sorts. One final message for someone not in attendance? Who and what? Just a thought!

Filius, I disagree with you on the charge that DD would be registered because he is a "law abiding person," if he is an animagus. After all, right in front of the Minister of Magic, at the time Fudge, he makes an illegal port key! I remember that section, where Fudge says, "See here, DD, you cannot do that in front of the Minister of Magic!" I just don't remember when that was... DD does what he thinks is right, illegal or otherwise.

akhilpotter, again, see above for my view on the registered thing. Also, if you mean secret weapon as a good disguise, I don't think so somehow. Phoenixes are rare, so if I saw one and was Voldy I would kill it, not that that would help! ;-) Either way, I think that since Voldy knows about Fawkes, CoS, he will not make such a mistake.

Acid Pop Seeker, I don't get your thought about the final message? Please elaborate for me, sorry! Or anyone else if you get it!

Maybe when someone dies, they become what they're most fond of... just my idea

That's a fascinating notion, what Dan said about JKR saying DD was giving her problems. It also maps with what she said somewhere on her site, about having "house elf problems" and the elves having to recognize that she's the author after all.

I'm for the idea that DD is "back" in one of a couple ways:

1. Via communication across the Veil--if anyone had studied in that room, it would have been him.
2. Via his real presence in Harry, and in Hagrid, and maybe in Snape. DD says the dead we have loved never truly leave us. I'm thinking there is something literally true about that, just as the pensieve shows all that a memory records despite how little we noticed at the time. We leave real impressions and traces of ourselves on one another.
3. Via some non-evil version of the spell LV used to regenerate himself--perhaps some accidental performance of magic involving Harry's blood, if 2 is true. But if that happens, it will be after the horcrux hunt is over, so that Harry will have shown his loyalty to DD by finishing the task he set him to. "I will only be gone when none here are loyal to me". What Harry showed at the cave was utter loyalty--DD knew his work was done and that Harry's heart could carry him the rest of the way.

I do not think the portrait will be the way he is back--portraits are two dimensional echoes of catch-phrases, not bona fide minds.

Yeah and the absence of any mention of the portrait after DD's 'demise' strikes me as unusual cause if i was Harry or any of the people at Hogwarts i would be the first one to go look in the Headmaster's room to check on a portrait!

Yet as far as we know, no a single reference was made!

I think Fawkes just died to honor dumbldore and to show sadness. I think even though phoenixe die then are reborn i think Fawkes made the decision to die and not be re-born.

DD's portrait does appear in his office, "slumbering" behind MM's desk. So, that seems to indicate that he died.

wizards can deffinatley not become a phoenix when they die, dumbledore was powerful but no amount of power can do that, it propably was fawkes dying and protection dumbledore that is more possible.

Yet as far as we know, no a single reference was made!

Pumkinjuice:

Yeah i checked that up later..... Sorry! I was sooooo relieved to read it!

Now atleast he isn't completely gone!

It just occurred to me that Phoenixes are reborn from the ashes and DDs' coffin went up in flames. maybe there was some ash left and DD could have been an animagus (of a phoenix) which means he could be reborn from the ashes. maybe harry's new put is DD in a different form. he could have been reincarnated!

yeah thats a pretty good idea HP4eva! BU the only flaw i see is that DD wasnt a phoenix when he died... so i wonder if he would still retain the phoenix's powers....

I don't think that all wizards can become phoenixes. I think the reason in my opinion that Harry saw a phoenix at DD's funeral was one because of Fawkes but also because I believe that DD did turn into a phoenix at his funeral. Phoenixes are very powerful creatures one of the most powerful in the magical world, and DD was the strongest wizard in the world for a significant time.

Just so you guys know, the Pheonix at the funeral was NOT Fawkes, the previous chapter precludes that possibility. It COULDN'T have been Fawkes. I'll explain why in just a minute.

Anyways, I also came up with the Pheonix idea soon after finishing HBP, just like the person who posted this thread. Here is my take on it. First, some key things that should be noted:

1. Dumbledore has a pet Pheonix, Fawkes.

2. Dumbledore's Patronus is a Pheonix.

3. Dumbledore is VERY old, yet up until near his end, he remained spry, youthful, and energetic. He was wise, but certainly not a tired old man. BUT, at the end of OotP and several times througout HBP, it was noted that he was starting to grow tired at last.


As I see it, Dumbledore is the very embodiment of a Pheonix. Now, if anybody has powerful secret abilities, it's Dumbledore. I can see no reason why he WOULDN'T be a Pheonix animagus.

So, with this idea, it could be possible that Dumbledore, who was finally growing tired near the end, was reborn from his tomb in his Pheonix form. As you know, Pheonix's do grow old and tired, and then die, but afterwards they are reborn. Fawkes did that in Chamber of Secrets. When Harry first saw Fawkes he looked very ugly, because he was on his last limbs. Then he burst into flames and was reborn, to eventually reach adulthood again. I feel that at the end, Dumbledore was getting to that same point of "final" exhaustion. When he died, the flames rose up as he was reborn as a Pheonix, and flew away.

But, for you skeptics who say it wasn't Dumbledore, it was Fawkes, just look back at the end of chapter 29, "The Pheonix Lament", from Half-Blood Prince.



____________________________________________________________
_____________

"Dunno," said Harry, lying back on his bed fully clothed and staring blankly upwards. He felt no curiousity at all about R.A.B. He doubted that he would ever feel curious again. As he lay there, he became suddenly aware that the grounds were silent. Fawkes had stopped singing.

And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left the school, had left the world...had left Harry.
____________________________________________________________
_____________


That line still makes me sad. But the point is, that little excerpt clearly states that Fawkes had left Hogwarts for good, and he was not coming back. Dumbledore's funeral wasn't until the following chapter, so it couldn't possibly have been Fawkes that encased Dumbledore's body in the tomb, could it? No, I believe that it was Dumbledore, giving his former life a proper goodbye and a proper burial before he left, finally free from the shackles of old age.

Whether he will remain a Pheonix forever or he can return to wizard form, I'm not sure (probably the former), but I'm pretty sure it was Dumbledore that ignited the table and created the tomb. I'm pretty sure he's still in the world of the living in some form, not just in the afterlife.



An alternative to the animagus theory is a theory using Harry's wand. It contains a Pheonix feather. Perhaps this could be used to revive or communicate with Dumbledore in some way...just as long as he doesn't "pull a Gandalf", this might actually be possible.

I agree ,wholeheartedly, with legendarylugi!

The phoenix was NOT Fawlkes, and DD is perfectly capable of becoming an animagus...
Don't forget that he was the Transfiguration teacher before he was Headmaster.

I agree with those who say that it was unlikely that he was registered, as someone said "a secret weapon would be good to hide." Also, when Hermione talks about looking at the registry at some point, she mentions McGonagall, not DD.

The only thing I don't agree with is the Harry's wand being a way to get him back... for several reasons. Funny thing you said "pull a Gandalf," legendarylugi, as JKR actually said that herself, only she said that "DD would not pull a Gandalf and come back." Also, she said that he was dead. He was not afraid of death, and would NEVER allow someone else to die in his stead even his somewhat goat-addled brother! I believe that he was already dying from the curse that shriveled his hand, that Snape "put a stopper in death" just long enough for him to get his affairs in order and teach Harry what he needed to know, and that he died a little earlier than had the curse taken it's toll, to save the lives of Snape and Draco. I do not see him coming back in the form that we know, but a phoenix is a wonderful way for him to return!

Glad to know someone agrees with me. And yes, Dumbledore wouldn't be registered. Whoever said that Dumbledore is a law abiding citizen is incorrect. He breaks the law all the time. He just does it in subtle ways. I bet if someone just came out and asked him "are you an Animagus?" he would tell them, but it's not exactly lieing to just not say anything. Of course, it's still illegal.

Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard in the world, and even if he's NOT an Animagus, he could become a Pheonix in other ways. As you said, he was the Transfiguration teacher before he was Headmaster (I'd forgotten that). And Transfiguration is the magic of changing one thing into another. That would certainly be a viable alternative to being an Animagus. Not to mention, it could also be knowledge that could help make it more easy for him to BECOME an Animagus. It shows a rather interesting parrallel to Professor Minerva McGonagal (I forget how to spell her name). She was the Transfiguration teacher, she is an Animagus, and now she's the Headmistress. That is an unusual parallel. Perhaps it was another of JKR's clues?

As for the "pulling a Gandalf" statement, that's WHY I said it. I said, as long as he DOESN'T pull a Gandalf, because Rowling said he wouldn't, using a Pheonix feather to communicate with him in some way doesn't seem impossible. I said revive OR communicate, communicate being the more likely one, since the other way would almost surely have him "pull a Gandalf", which won't happen.

I mean, the fact that the feather in Harry's wand comes from Dumbledore's pet Pheonix is bound to have some kind of previously unmentioned significance, isn't it? And I'm not just talking about the fact that his and Voldemort's wands are connected. I'm talking about the fact that they both came from Dumbledore's companion Fawkes, rather than some other creature. The magic in Harry's and Voldemort's wands could both have from from Quirrel's back hair, and it wouldn't make a difference as long as the wands got their magic from the exact same creature. There has to be some kind of significance to it coming from FAWKES.