I was just skimming through GoF again looking for another reference and I came upon the part where the fake Moody demonstrates the unforgiveable curses. He demonstrates the imperious curse on Harry. I wondered why he did that. I saw it as an opportunity for Harry to get used to the feel of that curse and to also practice resisting it. But it would seem to me to have harry learn to resist the imperious curse would be counterproductive to what the Fake Moody would want to do.
SO my question is why would Fake Moody have done this when it seems to have been an advantage for Harry to know about this and to learn a bit about how to defend against it.

One answer I had was that fake Moody did this as a disguised attempt to see how strong Harry is, to see if the rumors are true about his talents as a wizard and then to perhaps give that info to Voldie.

There may be another answer that is more obvious, but I am not seeing it now. Any thoughts?

I think that you're right about the fake Moody trying to see how strong he was. Either curiosity got the best of him, or maybe he needed to know for Voldemort or something... I have no clue. Good question.

You know, madamepomfrey, I'm going through GoF again myself right now and I've been sticking little post-its in the pages with things that I wanted to mention on these forums, and that point was one of them and you beat me to it!

Yep, I'd wondered exactly the same thing myself. I mean, it was definitely fake Moody, because the real Moody was replaced the night that his dustbins went haywire, right?

So why on earth would fake Moody (i.e Crouch) have taught everyone about the Unforgivables and how to resist them? Particularly Harry, the very person who posed the greatest risk to Voldemort.

I don't think that Crouch was in communication with Voldemort at any point because he seemed so concerned about asking Harry when he returned from the graveyard if Voldemort had forgiven the DE's who had deserted him. Which means that everything Crouch did as Moody, he did of his own volition.

So...why would he want Harry to learn to resist the Imperious curse?

Mmm.....maybe it's because, as you and Kreacher suggested, he just wanted to see how strong the great Harry Potter really is. If that was his purpose, then I'm sure he went away disappointed at his inability to place the Imperious on him....and he's only 15! If he can withstand an Imperius curse at 15 placed on him by a much more powerful wizard, that would have been quite a kick in the teeth for Crouch, wouldn't it? Not to mention Voldemort, if that information ever got back to him.

Maybe he just wanted to prove something to himself - that Harry wasn't so great after all...maybe he fancied himself as Voldemort's replacement or something and hoped that, by beating Harry into submission, that he would win respect and admiration from the existing DE's?

Or maybe he wanted to toughen Harry up a bit to make him more of a challenge? That would imply a certain level of respect for Harry on Crouch's part....he wouldn't want to make it too easy for himself, would he? You know...when he eventually fulfilled his plan of killing Harry....

Or maybe it's for another reason that we don't know of yet....

I guess we'll never know now. Not that Crouch is dead....maybe there's still a way to bring him back.....maybe if the Dementor who sucked his soul is killed? I think that's kind of a rough ending for anyone, you know....even Crouch....

Dana, I wonder if fake moody was in contact with Voldie. How else would he know to put Harry's name in the goblet. Voldie and wormtail had found out about the Triwizard Tourn. from Bertha Jorkins. I also sort of assumed that crouch jr knew about it as well, from his dad. Then I am not sure how, but somehow, crouch jr had to know that Voldemort could use this information to get to Harry somehow. If Voldie didn't know that Harry was in the Tournament, then he wouldn't have been able to plan the whole portkey thing at the end. Crouch jr had to know that just Killing Harry was not enough, but that Voldie wanted to use Harry to restore him back to full body. So I still think there must have been some sort of communication between them. Remember when crouch/moody took harry away after he got back from the graveyard? Crouch asked harry about Voldie and how he treated the other death eaters and I think He asked about whether Voldie was fully restored. It seemed to me at that time, that Crouch seemed to know about Voldie plans to some extent. I need to reread that part again.

If they were able to communcate somehow, then it is possible that crouch as moody was really using that demonstration as a way to test Harry. Or perhaps he thought that the unforgivable curses might be used by one of the champions against harry during the tournament and he wanted to make sure that Harry could resist the imperius curse so that he would have the best shot at winning. Obviously, Moody/crouch had to make sure that Harry would win, or the whole plan would go wrong.

I don't know if my questions about this will be answered in future books or if maybe I have stumbled upon a conundrum that JKR will just leave unexplained or if it might actually be a sort of "mistake" on her part. I tend to beileve that it is not a mistake, because there have been other times when I have thought maybe she made a mistake in the story,only to find out later that it was a clue to something else

I am at just at the first task, so I have a ways to go. I had intended to read it this time like I used to read assignments and highlight areas I wanted to research etc. But i so enjoy reading it, that for the most part I just read and don't bother with all of that.

I guess I think there are some inconsistencies as well. That was the word I wanted to use earlier instead of mistakes, but couldn't think of it then, so thanks, that describes it better.

Of course, it could be that JKR is just so clever that what appears to be an inconsistency is really something else all together.

yeah, I like that last idea that he was just doing his best to make sure the staff thought he was the real Moody.

hadn't thought of the crouch jr. toughening harry up for the third task before. so he could resist imperius if any of the other champions (or teachers) tried anything like that against him...

I am just re-reading the part in GoF when they discover the fake moody. In that chapter you learn that crouch Jr met with voldemort before he came to hogwarts disguised as Moody. So that would mean that they cooked up the whole Tri-wizard tournament thing aws away to get at harry at that point in time.

But I still don't know why fake Moody would have used the imperius curse on him unless it was a way to test his skill or as others have suggested to perhaps give him a chance to learn those curses so he could use them during the tournament. Though as I write that idea, I think that is probably not it since anyone who knows Harry would know that Harry would never use those sort of curses on anyone unless it was a life or death situation.

I need to finish that part of the book, maybe there are more clues there as to why moody showed and tested the imperius curse on Harry there.

Yeah perhaps he was just toughening up Harry so he could fight them and use them... Even though to fulfill the prophecy all Voldemort would have to do would be put the imperius curse on Harry and make him jump in front of a train. So in a way that fake Moody definately made Harry stronger. Interesting thoughts..

well, i finally re read the ending and Fake Moody and voldie and wormtail were working together to set up the whole thing. I had sort of forgotten that, sorry.

I still did not get a clear answer as to why he put harry under the imperius curse. I think for right now I will leave it as he did it to test his strength. Or maybe he just did it because he was acting out the part of Moody so well and thought this would be something that moody would do.

Or he did it to torment Harry a bit when he showed avada kedavra. Maybe there was a sadistic element to that. He wanted to show harry how his parents had died and how it was futile to resist it or face it. Also showing these curses, gave moody the chance to follow up with Neville and give him that book about underwater plants. While that plan didn't work well since Harry never looked at the book, crouch does say that is why he gave Neville that book.

Oh I just had another thought. Maybe it was just and excuse to give Crouch the chance to practice using those curses again. Since he had been under house arrest with his dad for so long, he was probably out of practice, so this gave him an opportunity to practice those spells without risking his identity being discovered. What do you think?

Yeah, I've just finished GoF too!! At last! Man, that's one long book....

Anywho.....

Yeah, Voldemort and Crouch Jr. were definitely working together. Sorry about that, I wasn't sure when I first posted, but Crouch does admit to it in the 'Veritaserum' chapter. Voldemort went to Crouch's house when he heard from Bertha Jorkins that his 'faithful servant' there would be able to help him get his body back.

Very good suggestions there though, madamepomfrey! The practise theory was particularly good - I'd never considered that. Rather than testing Harry, then, he could have been testing himself to see whether or not he still had the ability to do the curses effectively. It would have been a way of 'legally' using them...I'm not sure if the MoM has the capability of detecting the use of illegal curses... (I've been tainted by fanfics on that one....From the books themselves, it only looks as though the MoM can detect underage wizardry...if they could detect the illegal curses, all they'd have to do would be to wait for Voldy to use the Cruciatus curse on someone and they'd immediately have his location, wouldn't they?)....but if they do, then he could get away with it.

But your second idea was good too...Crouch was exceptionally manipulative and had everything planned out to the smallest detail and yes, the use of the curses definitely gave him the excuse he needed to be able to speak to Neville afterwards.

On the other hand though, Dumbledore asked him to teach the students about the Unforgivables, so I suppose part of the blame for that must rest with him. Of course, we only have fake Moody's word for it that DD knew....and DD is not omnipresent and all knowing, otherwise he would have had fake Moody's cards marked right from the moment he set foot in the castle.

I don't know...of all the possibilities that have been suggested though, at the moment, I think I'm more inclined to go for the 'Practise' theory over the others because that one makes the most sense - plus a touch of the 'Manipulation' theory.....Crouch wanted to test himself legally, as well as proving to himself that he could defeat Harry if he so chose, in addition to giving him the excuse he needed to get to Neville.

Incidentally, that was an extremely nasty, underhanded, vicious, cruel thing to do...using Neville like that. I think that behaviour like that is a far truer reflection of the very dark evil that Voldemort and his followers represent. AK is scary, yes, but the kind of mental cruelty and manipulation he is capable of - like the very worst and very cleverest of all villians in fiction - is far more scary, IMO. As someone (think it was DD) said in GoF, LV gift for spreading enmity and distrust among people is very great.....it's a subtler way of breaking people down than using all the Unforgivables together.

LV and his DE's are some truly scary, very dark characters.

Perhaps. I know that it has been said before that Crouch Jr was just trying to see how powerful Harry was.... something small... not too important or they would've thrown a lot more emphasis than what they did. It's just another of Harry's talents...

this may be one of those small details that JKR leaves loose and we never really know.

I do agree with you Dana, and others that the death eaters are scary and that using Neville like that was really sick, evil and twisted. It is interesting in the book that when it happens, before we know about moody, we see that as a kind thing. You know, the way he pulls Neville aside and compliments him about having a strength in Herbology. Poor Neville rarely gets anyone to pay attention to except to put him down. (even Professor McGonagall can be hard on Neville). So it seemed rather touching that Moody did this kindness for him after showing the curse that tortured his parents.

Then of course, at the end we see that it really wasn't a kindness at all and in fact was a manipulation of the worst kind.

I think that Neville will continue to emerge as a very important character. He is a great example of JKR's skill. First we are introduce to him as a small incidental character used what seems to be mostly for comic relief, and then by the end of Book 5 we see how crucial he is to the whole plot line. (actually, this itself would be a good thread, I wonder if one exists about Neville and his growning role yet) I wonder if the filmmakers know what is going to happen since when they cast these extra parts in the first movie and they were just small parts. I mean they would have to be sure that these kids would have the acting chops to handle it later on when their parts get bigger. I wonder if Matthew Lewis will still be used as Neville by the time we get to book 5 because I wonder if he will have the skill to develop that character.

I would think that casting these films, especially the kids, would have been a nightmare.

its been awhile since I visited this thread. I am now re-reading GoF (again) because I am reading it to my youngest child. When I read the whole fake moody and the imperius curse, I had another thought. First of all, I am still confused as to why he used it on harry. I believe that he first did it to perhaps assess Harry's ability to counteract the curse. But then he made Harry do it over and over again almost like training him to get better and better at counteracting it. So that confuses me a bit. I can understand why he would want to test him, but not why he would make him better at avoiding it.

The other thought I had was maybe he did on the other kids to see who would be the easiest to control for future use. If Voldemort could be supplied with a list of kids close to Harry that he could use the imperius curse on, then that would be interesting indeed! Something that I noticed this time around was a remark that Neville in particular, was bad a resisting the curse.

We already know that Fake Moody has manipulated Neville once (with the book about water plants) and now we know that Fake Moody knows that Neville couldn't resist imperius. I find that interesting.

I also think that there is a whole lot more to Neville that we don't know about. I think he may turn out to be a very key character. And even though he messes up a lot, I think his true character is strong and we saw the beginnings of that in OOtP and we will be seeing more in the next two books.

I agree that he was probably doing it to see how strong and resistant Harry was. Or maybe he was just doing it so that he looked like the Real Moody. I think that only JK knows and we won't know unless she tells us.

In GOF, page 688, Scholastic version, fake Moody said, "He told me he needed to place a faithfull servant at Hogwarts. A servant who would guide Harry Potter through the tournament without appearing to do so........Ensure he reached the triwizard cup. turn the cup into a portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master."

Then, on page 690, again scholastic version, "My master sent me word of my fathers escape." That tells me that Voldemort was in contact with fake Moody all the time everything was going on. However, on page 662, " You won't? said Voldemort quietly......You won't say no? Harry, ..........". Evidently fake Moody didn't tell Voldemort that Harry could throw off the imperious curse after all.

Why? Your guess is as good as mine. However fake moody performed the imperious curse on Harry in the first class of the year, so he could have told Voldemort at any time but evidently chose not to. Interesting to say the least.

Why did Barty teach Harry how to throw off tyhe imperius curse. For someone that came up with the geneous plan to get harry into the grave yard he was pretty dumb to do that. The imperious curse is one of the most powerful curses the Death Eaters use and it would be very useful when killng harry.

I never understood that either! I've been wondering for years now! How stupid of him, really. I mean, doesn't that help Harry defend himself from Voldemort, which is the opposite of what Crouch wanted? I mean, for someone who is supposedly Voldemort's #1 fan, he helped Harry a lot. He was also the one who gave Harry the dream of becoming an Auror. In fact, that was also bad for the death eaters, because they could've had once less auror on their tails! And one darn good one, also! Anyway, that almost makes it seem like Crouch was actually trying to prepare Harry for Voldemort. However, that doesn't make sense.

Good point. Why did Barty Crouch Jr. teach Harry the Imperius curse disguised as Mad Eye? By doing so he only helped in aiding Harry and making him a better wizard and also teaching him how to better defeat Voldy. Matbe why he did it is because he was disguised as Mad Eye and did not want to look suspicius to Dumbledore or anyone else. Since Mad Eye was selegated by Dumbledore to "watch out" for Harry then maybe Barty Jr had to "play the part" and be convincing about it...

Actually,he didn't help him at all!!.He introduced them to this curse(which, he is not supposed to do ),tried it on them(this also he is not supposed to do !) maybe to test Harry how strong he is or can he defend LV after he comes out of the maze.When he put the curse on HP,he just simply threw it off!He never actually helped him!He only praised for his ability to throw it off!!

He probably wasn't playin the part because showing those curses was forbiden by the minestry. I also beleive that dumbledore knew about using the spiders for the unforgiveable curses but i dont think he knew moody was putting the imperius curse on the students.



He actually tried it on him five times to make sure he could throw it off completely

That's a very interesting question! I think it's because he wanted to look as much as the real Moody as he could. By teaching Harry how to throw off the imperius curse, I'd didn't look as though he was a Dark Wizard.

But still, it's a benefit for Harry while Voldemort would be better off without Harry knowing how to throw off the imperius curse!

Personally, I think that it is because of two resons. One, he wanted to make EVERYONE believe that he was who he claimed to be. Barty Crouch JR had to make everyone believe without a reasonable doubt that he is Alastor Moody, right? And from what we can gather Moody is mad, gifted, but most of all paranoid. He showed the fourth years what the Unforgivable Curses were, and surprise suprise, Harry Potter seemed to be the only one that showed some resistance to it. Which leads me to my second point, curiosity. We know that he was in communication with Voldemort, so maybe he wanted to see how quickly he would be able to throw it off completely so he can tell Voldemort just what he should expect to be facing when Harry was to be sent to Riddle SR's graveyard to ressurect Voldie.

Don't forget, he also keeps telling his students to always keep their guard up, because he had to play on the part that he's a paranoid ex-Auror. He didn't really think he was doing a favour by teaching him to throw it off though. Don't forget, Harry was supposed to die in that graveyard, with or without being able to throw off the Imperius Curse.

If this in no way makes sense at all, I apologize. It is due to the lack of sleep I've gotten lately since my son's only getting better from his bronchiolitis, and I was in desperate need of Harry Potter fan theories.

Well I think what you have said makes perfect sense, yes, it would not matter whether or not Harry could throw off the Imperius curse if he wasn't going to be in a situation within which he would need to throw it off, if he was going to be killed at the conclusion of the tournament, it didn't matter.

Yes, I suppose Barty Crouch Jr. was simply attempting to convince everyone of his identity, although it was a little extreme. . . I would think Umbridge's approach would have been of increased suitability, having the students study from their text books, no practical lessons. . but then again. . as stated he was trying to convince those of his identity and the real Alastor I believe may have cast the curses upon the spiders however not upon the students. Would someone who approached their occupation with upmost seriousness implement the curses he had been fighting against? Would cursing a spider not be enough to display not only Moody's paranoia, but the reasoning behind his mantra, 'constant vigilance'?
Maybe Barty Crouch Jr. was itching to use an unforgivable curse if he hadn't been able to use one in a long time.
The most intelligent idea of his was definitely the Polyjuice in the hip flask.
Thank you for introducing this topic! Because I had been wondering about this choice of Crouch Jr.'s myself .

-Steph

I think it was because Voldermort wanted to know how strong Harry really was and how hard it would be to get him into the grave yard... I don't know just a thought...

That seems likely. After all, he couldn't have gotten to be the most feared wizard if he knew nothing about his enemies. He would probably send spies to analyze whoever he wanted to kill, then throw them off guard, or attack them when they were sleeping.

well i think it is because of two main reasons
one being that lv wanted harry to fight back he said pick up your wand and look at me when im talking to you after he hit him the frist time showing that he wanted him to fight there fore i thing lv wanted him to knwo how do this

two beign that if he did use it by chance that he would get in trouble and sent to prison meaning that harry would be less likey to be in lv way that way he could kill off more muggles...

just thougth oif another ...lord voly wants harry on his side kinda what better then your equal on your side why not teach the curse

just a thought
seachell

I assume it was because if he didn't do it, he would blow his cover. He was acting like the real Moody would. I guess that Dumbledore expects Moody to take extremes and live those extremes in his classroom. Maybe Crouch knew this and decided that it was best to teach Harry how to defend himself against the curse so Dumbledore or anyone else wouldn't be suspicious. Crouch probably researched how Moody lived his life too.

Hi, guys! We have a discussion like this going on in the Book 1-5 forum. As this one has generated a few resonses, I'm going to merge them together. Thanks for your thoughts and discussions. Please continue in the merged thread!

I think your right on target with Moody trying to see how strong/powerful Harry was. I think this event may have changed both Crouch Jr and Voldy’s perception of Harry.

I have posted a topic like this in the lounge before i realised this one was here. People seem to think that he was acting but he went a bit too far. Showing them the curses was acceptable but peforming the imperious curse on them was a bit far. I dont6 think dumbledore knew about that. I am utterly clueless about it. Either he was stupid, or craved the use of unforgiveable curses on poeple and had to use them like they were ciggerettes and he was addicted.

in my opion i dont beleive that dd knew he was teaching the curse ...for one it is forbinden so it wouldent be aloud to this even if he was trying to help harry fight off like i said before i thind lv wanted harry to fight back he told him to pick up his wand
seachell

so nobody has any thing else to say about the imperius curse and moddy im sure plenty of people have thoughts on this topic wat is up
seacehll

I will answer but first I want to remind you that double posting like you did is not allowed here.

I have no doubt that Dumbledore knew exactly what Moody was teaching. Dumbledore was far too wise not to know what was going on in the classrooms of his school. How many teachers was he supervising? I can not remember at the moment how many Owls there were but I believe it was between 10-13 subjects. It is an insult to Dumbledore to think he could not keep track of that many teachers in his school.

Since when has Dumbledore cared what the MoM thought? Dumbledore was more aware than any other what the students would be facing in the future. I have no doubt he approved of the fake Moody exposing the students to the unforgivable curses. What better way to prepare them for the return of Voldemort and his Death Eaters than to expose them directly to the unforgivables. Dumbledore may not of given direct approval for fake Moody teaching the curses. But I have no doubt he gave passive approval by not stopping it.

I agree with the fact that dumbledore knew what the fake moody was teaching but probably thought that he was doing that so the students can defend theirselves from voldemort. The other reason might be that crouch jr was stupid enough to teach harry the curse to defeat voldemort. The other way might be that voldemort himself told crouch jr to teach harry the curses because he wanted harry to face him and try to defeat him with the curses and then go to azkaban?(I know this one doesn't really makes sense.)I've been thinking about this too but all the theories I come up with do not really make sense to me

I think it's just who Crouch jr is. He is similar to Voldemort, He respects people who are powerful but doesn't feel sympathy for them.
I just remembered that he turned Malfoy into a ferret Maybe he thought Draco's dad was competition against him in favouritism to Voldie??

Who knows? Only JK ROWLING thats who!

you can double post after one week.

anyways i think Chroac did this to see if Harry was strong and how good he was at avioding the curse. From that imperious curse the imposter knew that harry was strong willed making it hard for him to change harry;s mind. I think Moody putting the curse on harry was related to him fixing the tournament