Who is RAB? hmm... well I have thought about it, and Regulus Black is the only person i can think of that has the initials RAB. But I haven't read back any pages in this thread so I don't know if anyone else can up with anyone else... But my vote goes to Regulus on that one. I think that he was a devoted death eater at first, but then he found out the real truth and reason behind LV and secretly started working against him, but got caught and killed.
~snitch
Full Version: Who/What Is R.a.b.?- Thread 10
Are we actually going to find out who R.A.B. is though? As far as we know he was the only person that was working against Voldemort, and, presumably, he was killed. If it was Regulus, it is probably Harry will go back to Grimmauld Place and find the locket and everything. But, if it isn't Regulus, will we find out who?
I think the impression JKR has made in interviews is that we will find out, tho maybe she could throw us all a curve.
It's a good question, how much stuff is left in the house...we don't know really. But dont I recall there being hardware on doors and such that is snake-shaped? stuff unlikely to have been removed? Those would be more interesting candidates for having something behind them, on the analogy of the CoS having a snake on the pipes (hardware).
Let's speculate as to why the Blacks might have either Slytherin objects or things that respond to parseltongue without being Slytherin objects (is that possible? are only Slytherin-blood people parseltongue? Herpo the Foul was an ancient parselmouth, according to FB, with no Slytherin tie....)
1. It is possible, given all we have been ENDLESSLY reminded of in the series about the intermixing of family lines, that some Slytherin blood has crossed into the Black line, without manifesting it in every single member. Maybe Walburga didnt blast off people from the tapestry just for their ideas, but for lack of expression of an important family trait? Sirius informs us of her reasons for blasting, but Sirius has given us misinformation based on his own prejudices before. Or maybe only a few expressed parseltongue and Sirius just didnt know so didnt mention it.
2. It is most simple to think the Blacks bough Slytherin relics at Borgin and Bourkes, since they were a wealthy family. We know the shop liked to trade in such objects.
3. It is possible that some other bloodline issue besides Slytherin has given some Black or other the gift of parseltongue.
4. It is possible that powers were transferred to someone in the Blacks in the past, analogous to how they were passed to Harry, in an attack or something.
It's a good question, how much stuff is left in the house...we don't know really. But dont I recall there being hardware on doors and such that is snake-shaped? stuff unlikely to have been removed? Those would be more interesting candidates for having something behind them, on the analogy of the CoS having a snake on the pipes (hardware).
Let's speculate as to why the Blacks might have either Slytherin objects or things that respond to parseltongue without being Slytherin objects (is that possible? are only Slytherin-blood people parseltongue? Herpo the Foul was an ancient parselmouth, according to FB, with no Slytherin tie....)
1. It is possible, given all we have been ENDLESSLY reminded of in the series about the intermixing of family lines, that some Slytherin blood has crossed into the Black line, without manifesting it in every single member. Maybe Walburga didnt blast off people from the tapestry just for their ideas, but for lack of expression of an important family trait? Sirius informs us of her reasons for blasting, but Sirius has given us misinformation based on his own prejudices before. Or maybe only a few expressed parseltongue and Sirius just didnt know so didnt mention it.
2. It is most simple to think the Blacks bough Slytherin relics at Borgin and Bourkes, since they were a wealthy family. We know the shop liked to trade in such objects.
3. It is possible that some other bloodline issue besides Slytherin has given some Black or other the gift of parseltongue.
4. It is possible that powers were transferred to someone in the Blacks in the past, analogous to how they were passed to Harry, in an attack or something.
Certainly it is possible someone from the Slytherin line married someone from the Black line at some point. However, I think it important to note that JKR has given us difinitive information on the inbreeding nature of the true Slytherin line. Now, all descendents did not have to subscribe to this intermingling if you will, Merope didn't, but look what that coupling produced.
HBP pg 212: DD, "Marvolo...Morfin...Merope, were the last of the Gaunts, a very ancient Wizarding family noted for a vein of instability and violence that flourished though the generations due to their habit of marrying their own cousins."
Looking over the Black family tree again, I see no mention of a Gaunt, although there is one Crabbe, a Longbottom, James Potter's parents, Lucius Malfoy/Draco, a Crouch and a McMillian. Plus a few others.
Being that the Black family had apparently always had a preference for the Dark Arts, certainly someone or someones could be or have been a parseltongue. It is definitely a good thought to have Harry speak it in the House of Black and see what happens. Gosh knows it could lead to an avalanche of information. The Black family tree begins with Phineas Nigellus's generation, so we don't know to whom they were related prior. Interesting question. It is also important to note the seven members blasted off the tapestry all have muggle links, a marriage to a Weasley, ran away as was the case with Sirius, and his uncle, who gave support to Sirius in his runaway status. They all are given reasons for being blasted off the tapestry.
HBP pg 212: DD, "Marvolo...Morfin...Merope, were the last of the Gaunts, a very ancient Wizarding family noted for a vein of instability and violence that flourished though the generations due to their habit of marrying their own cousins."
Looking over the Black family tree again, I see no mention of a Gaunt, although there is one Crabbe, a Longbottom, James Potter's parents, Lucius Malfoy/Draco, a Crouch and a McMillian. Plus a few others.
Being that the Black family had apparently always had a preference for the Dark Arts, certainly someone or someones could be or have been a parseltongue. It is definitely a good thought to have Harry speak it in the House of Black and see what happens. Gosh knows it could lead to an avalanche of information. The Black family tree begins with Phineas Nigellus's generation, so we don't know to whom they were related prior. Interesting question. It is also important to note the seven members blasted off the tapestry all have muggle links, a marriage to a Weasley, ran away as was the case with Sirius, and his uncle, who gave support to Sirius in his runaway status. They all are given reasons for being blasted off the tapestry.
Well, maybe we have finally found the thing that relates a bit of history to the JKR books.
John of GAUNT was brother to Edward the "BLACK Prince".
Something before the Phineas Nigellus generation may have crossed the Black and Gaunt lines. Phineas Nigellus being the chattiest of portraits in DD's office (and Grimauld) might have something to tell us about what HE knows about the family history prior to the tapestry's record.
OMG OMG OMG.....
I was about to say it would be a PERFECT and delightful ending if it turns out that LV finds out in the end that he is NOT the "heir of Slytherin" -- or at least not the ONLY one.
Is THAT the secret RAB may have discovered? Not just the fact that LV is a half-blood, but that LV is not the only heir of Slytherin, that Regulus was himself the younger heir of Slytherin; would that heir-status, now that Regulus and Sirius are dead and Sirius has transferred his estate to Harry, pass now to Harry? The note would then imply that LV KNOWS he is not really the last Slytherin, and therefore knows he is acting on a falsehood.
IS HARRY NOW, by CHOICE (of James in making Sirius his godfather, of Sirius in willing Harry his estate), rather than blood, the HEIR OF SLYTHERIN??
Oh my, that would cheese LV.
It would also link the "secret" line of the message to the "hope that you are mortal" line--Regulus has come to see LV as not worth the preservation by horcruxes, as he is not the rightful heir of Slytherin but parades around as if he were. That would infuriate Regulus.
It is possible that the heir status would confer magically via Sirius's will, since the magic of mastery over Kreacher did so.
John of GAUNT was brother to Edward the "BLACK Prince".
Something before the Phineas Nigellus generation may have crossed the Black and Gaunt lines. Phineas Nigellus being the chattiest of portraits in DD's office (and Grimauld) might have something to tell us about what HE knows about the family history prior to the tapestry's record.
OMG OMG OMG.....
I was about to say it would be a PERFECT and delightful ending if it turns out that LV finds out in the end that he is NOT the "heir of Slytherin" -- or at least not the ONLY one.
Is THAT the secret RAB may have discovered? Not just the fact that LV is a half-blood, but that LV is not the only heir of Slytherin, that Regulus was himself the younger heir of Slytherin; would that heir-status, now that Regulus and Sirius are dead and Sirius has transferred his estate to Harry, pass now to Harry? The note would then imply that LV KNOWS he is not really the last Slytherin, and therefore knows he is acting on a falsehood.
IS HARRY NOW, by CHOICE (of James in making Sirius his godfather, of Sirius in willing Harry his estate), rather than blood, the HEIR OF SLYTHERIN??
Oh my, that would cheese LV.
It would also link the "secret" line of the message to the "hope that you are mortal" line--Regulus has come to see LV as not worth the preservation by horcruxes, as he is not the rightful heir of Slytherin but parades around as if he were. That would infuriate Regulus.
It is possible that the heir status would confer magically via Sirius's will, since the magic of mastery over Kreacher did so.
I also believe that RAB means Regulus Black.
The only object I can remember that has a snake on it was the Door Knocker on the front door of 12 Grimmauld place. Most of the other objects in the Black's house just have the "Black Chrest" on them from what I remember.
As for this theory "IS HARRY NOW, by CHOICE (of James in making Sirius his godfather, of Sirius in willing Harry his estate), rather than blood, the HEIR OF SLYTHERIN??"
I don't believe that would happen. I'm pretty sure that you can't just say you want someone to have your house and then become heir to something. That takes out the whole purpose of following "Blood line". And I think that JK made it quite clear that Voldy was and is indeed the final heir to Slytherin.
The only object I can remember that has a snake on it was the Door Knocker on the front door of 12 Grimmauld place. Most of the other objects in the Black's house just have the "Black Chrest" on them from what I remember.
As for this theory "IS HARRY NOW, by CHOICE (of James in making Sirius his godfather, of Sirius in willing Harry his estate), rather than blood, the HEIR OF SLYTHERIN??"
I don't believe that would happen. I'm pretty sure that you can't just say you want someone to have your house and then become heir to something. That takes out the whole purpose of following "Blood line". And I think that JK made it quite clear that Voldy was and is indeed the final heir to Slytherin.
I was going to say something but you guys just made me want to re-read OotP and HBP. I'll get back to you all in a few days!!!!!!
Thats a good point about JKR's comment on LV. I went to get the quote, which occurs as part of a response to the question of whether LV might really be Harry's father. She says "no no no no...you lot have been watching too much Star Wars, and doesnt everyone say to Harry that he looks just like his father. Then she says:
This may leave the door open to the Blacks being in the Slytherin line, depending on when DD said that to Harry. If in HBP, which is where I think the comment is, then the Blacks could be in the Slytherin line, because LV WOULD be the last "surviving descendent" of Slytherin. He is the last one alive and the last one in the bloodline. That doesnt mean that he did not live simultaneously at some earlier point with other Slytherin descendent. And it does not rule out heir-dom by inheritance. If the comment happens before Sirius dies, then I'm wrong about this.
Anyhow, her adding--"just to clarify" in relation to Harry suggests that she might be wording her response very carefully, just as she worded her prophecy carefully. And the animation/vehemence in her response arises from the claim that Harry might be LV's son, not the question of the Slytherin bloodline.
The "purpose of the bloodline" idea is also important, but I'm thinking that part of the point of the series is that blood-based thinking is not all its cracked up to be. There definitely are certain things that can only pass via blood, whether it's parselmouth or Lily's protection. But even in bloodlines, there are provisions for what happens to what pertains to that line in the event of there not being blood heirs. Hence Harry may be the official heir, tho not by blood. He is, for all intents and purposes, the Black heir, isn't he? The question is what else the Black heir might be.
QUOTE
And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.
This may leave the door open to the Blacks being in the Slytherin line, depending on when DD said that to Harry. If in HBP, which is where I think the comment is, then the Blacks could be in the Slytherin line, because LV WOULD be the last "surviving descendent" of Slytherin. He is the last one alive and the last one in the bloodline. That doesnt mean that he did not live simultaneously at some earlier point with other Slytherin descendent. And it does not rule out heir-dom by inheritance. If the comment happens before Sirius dies, then I'm wrong about this.
Anyhow, her adding--"just to clarify" in relation to Harry suggests that she might be wording her response very carefully, just as she worded her prophecy carefully. And the animation/vehemence in her response arises from the claim that Harry might be LV's son, not the question of the Slytherin bloodline.
The "purpose of the bloodline" idea is also important, but I'm thinking that part of the point of the series is that blood-based thinking is not all its cracked up to be. There definitely are certain things that can only pass via blood, whether it's parselmouth or Lily's protection. But even in bloodlines, there are provisions for what happens to what pertains to that line in the event of there not being blood heirs. Hence Harry may be the official heir, tho not by blood. He is, for all intents and purposes, the Black heir, isn't he? The question is what else the Black heir might be.
QUOTE
The "purpose of the bloodline" idea is also important, but I'm thinking that part of the point of the series is that blood-based thinking is not all its cracked up to be. There definitely are certain things that can only pass via blood, whether it's parselmouth or Lily's protection. But even in bloodlines, there are provisions for what happens to what pertains to that line in the event of there not being blood heirs. Hence Harry may be the official heir, tho not by blood. He is, for all intents and purposes, the Black heir, isn't he? The question is what else the Black heir might be.
If RAB is indeed dead (i believe he is) they yes, it is logical to say that harry is the black heir. we know that harry is not a slytherin heir because JKR said it herself, but harry being the black heir is very very possible.
as to the bloodlines, it is very important yes. but i dont think that parsle tongue is something passed on by blood. Salzaar was a parsel tongue before he founded the house of slytherin. he chose the snake to be the symbol because he was a parsle tongue. speaking parsle tongue is considered to be "dark magic" (which i think that either voldemort or salazaar or possibly even grindlewald was the reason for this. before their time i think that speaking to snakes was no more evil than the next thing. anyone could learn it. but now that it is dark magic, people dont want to learn it and that is why it is so rare to find. they dont want to be in that category as voldemort)
when harry goes back to grimauld i really really hope he speaks parsle tongue to activate something... it just seems like he has to! haha.
and for the cave part, i am pretty sure you had to speak parsle tongue to get through one of the doors... DD asked harry to do it didnt he? I will look for the quote tonight when i get home but i just know that in order to get to the locket, you had to know parsle tongue. Which means if RAB did go to the cave to get the locket, RAB must have known parsle tongue (again i dont think he had an accomplice... the letter is singular. you know the argument. THe only accomplice i could see is kreacher. which would make RAB regulus and i doubt a house elve would get the credit.)
i hope that made sense haha
If Charles Potter is James Potter's father, then Charles Potter is Harry Potter's grandfather; if this is true, then Harry Potter's grandmother is Dorea BLACK.
If the Black's are descendants of Salazar Slytherin, then Sirius, Regulus, James, Harry, Tonks and DRACO are all heirs. Too complex, I think.
Charles Potter is not a descendant of Salazar, but could indeed be a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. I think maybe that is where the heir part might come into play, even though I recollect JKR said Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor? Maybe Neville is...
Mexell we disputed that parseltongue was necessary for entrance to the cave yesterday. I reread the chapter just to see and it was not required. It was required at the Gaunt House when Harry viewed the memory with Dumbledore. I thought so, too, until I read it again.
If the Black's are descendants of Salazar Slytherin, then Sirius, Regulus, James, Harry, Tonks and DRACO are all heirs. Too complex, I think.
Charles Potter is not a descendant of Salazar, but could indeed be a descendent of Godric Gryffindor. I think maybe that is where the heir part might come into play, even though I recollect JKR said Harry is not the heir of Gryffindor? Maybe Neville is...
Mexell we disputed that parseltongue was necessary for entrance to the cave yesterday. I reread the chapter just to see and it was not required. It was required at the Gaunt House when Harry viewed the memory with Dumbledore. I thought so, too, until I read it again.
My point is that Harry may be the heir of Slytherin because of the choices that people in his life have made.
James CHOSE Sirius as godfather.
Sirius CHOSE Harry as his heir.
Originally my argument was this: the Gaunt and Black families may have crossed long ago. I think that would be neat because in real life history the brother of John of GAUNT is the BLACK Prince (edward). If the Gaunt and Black families crossed, and the only other Gaunt around is LV, then both LV and Harry are the heirs of Slytherin.(see below for more on why this intrigues me and may be intended in the books)
All of this is predicated on the difference between "descendent" and "heir". A descendent is necessarily by blood. An heir can be anybody.
Now, I want to add one more wrinkle to the argument:
LV CHOSE Harry as his nemesis.
Harry had some powers PASSED TO HIM from LV by his making that choice.
Sounds like inheritance, doesnt it? Inheritance without bloodline.
LV may have CHOSEN Harry to be the last 'Heir' of Slytherin, when Harry eventually defeats him.
But what all this will prove in the end is that being the descendent or the heir of anything is not all that meaningful. Thinking it was was LV's big mistake in life, like it was Hitler's.
More on the Gaunt/Black thing. The ring that Tom takes from Morfin has the "Peverell" family crest on it. Here is a paste of something I put up on the "Chess Theory" thread, which I snagged off some internet research, Wiki I think....--
This is why I started thinking about the connection of Slytherin and the Blacks several weeks ago.
Now I'm thinking that the Peverell line may be some OTHER bloodline LV is ALSO in, and that the ring was not Slytherin's at all. No matter--it establishes a connection between LV's line and the Black line, in history anyhow.
Closest name in the series I can think of to Peverell is Prewitt, and we already know that the Weasleys are twigs on the Black tree.....
If you google "Peverell Prewett" you will get some links, one to a discussion board in another site that postulates many interesting astronomical bits (including star-charts, like Harry and company are made to do) linking some of the names in play here. There is also a speculation that Regulus is Rufus Scrimgeour, but I am not prepared to believe that!
James CHOSE Sirius as godfather.
Sirius CHOSE Harry as his heir.
Originally my argument was this: the Gaunt and Black families may have crossed long ago. I think that would be neat because in real life history the brother of John of GAUNT is the BLACK Prince (edward). If the Gaunt and Black families crossed, and the only other Gaunt around is LV, then both LV and Harry are the heirs of Slytherin.(see below for more on why this intrigues me and may be intended in the books)
All of this is predicated on the difference between "descendent" and "heir". A descendent is necessarily by blood. An heir can be anybody.
Now, I want to add one more wrinkle to the argument:
LV CHOSE Harry as his nemesis.
Harry had some powers PASSED TO HIM from LV by his making that choice.
Sounds like inheritance, doesnt it? Inheritance without bloodline.
LV may have CHOSEN Harry to be the last 'Heir' of Slytherin, when Harry eventually defeats him.
But what all this will prove in the end is that being the descendent or the heir of anything is not all that meaningful. Thinking it was was LV's big mistake in life, like it was Hitler's.
More on the Gaunt/Black thing. The ring that Tom takes from Morfin has the "Peverell" family crest on it. Here is a paste of something I put up on the "Chess Theory" thread, which I snagged off some internet research, Wiki I think....--
QUOTE
The Peverells were the descendents of William Peverell, the illegitimate son of William the Conqueror. Peverell was given landed estates after the Battle of Hastings. The family is associated with Peak Castle in Derbyshire, though it was eventually lost by the Peverell family (through a mysterious poisoning) and eventually came into the ownership of the Royal Family in the time of Edward III. He gave it to his son, John of Gaunt, perhaps somehow connected to Tom Riddle's impoverished wizarding relatives, the Gaunts.
John of Gaunt had a brother, Edward Plantagenet, who was known as the Black Prince. Hmm, Black, royalty, sound familiar?
John of Gaunt had a brother, Edward Plantagenet, who was known as the Black Prince. Hmm, Black, royalty, sound familiar?
This is why I started thinking about the connection of Slytherin and the Blacks several weeks ago.
Now I'm thinking that the Peverell line may be some OTHER bloodline LV is ALSO in, and that the ring was not Slytherin's at all. No matter--it establishes a connection between LV's line and the Black line, in history anyhow.
Closest name in the series I can think of to Peverell is Prewitt, and we already know that the Weasleys are twigs on the Black tree.....
If you google "Peverell Prewett" you will get some links, one to a discussion board in another site that postulates many interesting astronomical bits (including star-charts, like Harry and company are made to do) linking some of the names in play here. There is also a speculation that Regulus is Rufus Scrimgeour, but I am not prepared to believe that!
Now, that would cheese ME.
lol
The prophecy states that Harry will have power the Dark Lord knows not.. and this comes in the prophecy BEFORE LV is to mark harry as his equal. I equate this to infer that Harry inherently has a power LV either does not/will not/ or cannot accept to be powerful. This having nothing to do with the skills passed to Harry as per the attack.
Do I stand alone in thinking the two lines concerning "powers" are not referring to the same definitions of power? One Harry has on his own, the other(s) being received (inherited good word!) from LV?
lol
The prophecy states that Harry will have power the Dark Lord knows not.. and this comes in the prophecy BEFORE LV is to mark harry as his equal. I equate this to infer that Harry inherently has a power LV either does not/will not/ or cannot accept to be powerful. This having nothing to do with the skills passed to Harry as per the attack.
Do I stand alone in thinking the two lines concerning "powers" are not referring to the same definitions of power? One Harry has on his own, the other(s) being received (inherited good word!) from LV?
ur completely right sirren. the power that harry has that LV knows not DD hints is harry's STRONG love. due to his dramatic history....etc etc etc. .. he loves and apprecitates things more. his parseltongue and other stuff he inherited...was gifted to him by LV
What is the point of this argument? How does Harry's relation to the Blacks or Slytherine shed light onto whom RAB is?
I am sure that I read somewhere that JKR shot down the idea of Harry being related to Voldemort.
Anyway, Harry is not the true heir to the Blacks, all Sirius did was will his possesions to him. If Sirius had not had a will then everything would have gone to Bellatrix, that was the hole point of DD bringing Kreacher along with him to the Dursley's.
I am sure that I read somewhere that JKR shot down the idea of Harry being related to Voldemort.
Anyway, Harry is not the true heir to the Blacks, all Sirius did was will his possesions to him. If Sirius had not had a will then everything would have gone to Bellatrix, that was the hole point of DD bringing Kreacher along with him to the Dursley's.
Actually, that's not quite what she said, but it amounts to the same thing:
So, she does clarify that Dumbledore is right about Voldemort being the only decendent of Slytherin. Meaning Sirius (who was alive at that time) wasn't. Meaning Harry is not an unbiological heir of slytherin, if the idea of "heir" could even be used that way, which I doubt.
QUOTE
Section: Rumours
Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description
No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.
Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of some description
No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.
So, she does clarify that Dumbledore is right about Voldemort being the only decendent of Slytherin. Meaning Sirius (who was alive at that time) wasn't. Meaning Harry is not an unbiological heir of slytherin, if the idea of "heir" could even be used that way, which I doubt.
f.lammana: My apologies if our conversation seemed to turn away from who R.A.B. is, we were still there, although only with each other.
We were pondering the secret RAB found out, which neither of us suspect to be the locket/horocrux exclusively, rather deeper that Voldemort is a half-blood and not a pureblood as he touts. Whereas Regulus was raised to believe his pureblood status, as well as the fact he is Black is near Wizard royalty. For Regulus to have discovered that Voldemort is a filthy half-blood, his father a muggle, would have disgusted Regulus.
Then how is Harry to discover the secrets of Regulus, pumpkinjuice offered speaking parseltongue in the House of Black to see what secrets the language opens. Harry inherited (if you will) the ability to be fluent in parseltongue from Voldemort; what if Regulus was a parseltongue, too?
A bit of a tangent to be sure.
We were pondering the secret RAB found out, which neither of us suspect to be the locket/horocrux exclusively, rather deeper that Voldemort is a half-blood and not a pureblood as he touts. Whereas Regulus was raised to believe his pureblood status, as well as the fact he is Black is near Wizard royalty. For Regulus to have discovered that Voldemort is a filthy half-blood, his father a muggle, would have disgusted Regulus.
Then how is Harry to discover the secrets of Regulus, pumpkinjuice offered speaking parseltongue in the House of Black to see what secrets the language opens. Harry inherited (if you will) the ability to be fluent in parseltongue from Voldemort; what if Regulus was a parseltongue, too?
A bit of a tangent to be sure.
I thought I had been clear but let me be more direct:
The idea of being Heir of Slytherin is a totally different question from whether Harry is RELATED to Voldemort.
"Heir" just means that someone is somehow entitled to the possessions/status of someone else. It has nothing intrinsically to do with blood--technically my dog could be my heir; however blood descendency has been used as a primary determinant of who inherits or is 'heir to' the possessions/status of those who die. So Fish, I think the notion of "heir" very much can be used the way I am suggesting.
My point was that JKR has been forcing the issue of blood and whether blood matters on us since the start of the series. In some ways blood matters (Lily's sacrifice, tho what that has to do with blood I have no idea), but in other ways it doesnt (LV's ideology which is premised on his own bad faith about his own heritage). The overwhelming point seems to be that choices matter more than blood, and the only reason Lily's sacrifice confers protection for Harry as long as he remains with his blood brethren is because she made that choice to sacrifice herself.
So the idea of being "heir" seems to be legitimately, in this series, removable from the notion of blood inheritance. Again, The idea of being Heir of Slytherin is a totally different question from whether Harry is RELATED to Voldemort. It seems like the more meaningful kind of inheritance is that conferred by choice, as opposed to the small-minded and genocidal notions of blood purity that motivate LV.
And Sirren has explained how we wound up on this tangent--it was all related to how we might find out something interesting in Harry's/Sirius's/Regulus's house (a house full of items with SNAKE images on them for no apparent reason than that they were in Slytherin house while at school....the presence of such objects would seem to indicate something more important that where they happened to live while in school).
Here is a fascinating link that shows how Regulus plays out in astronomy in ways that might link him to Lupin, and some other things......[url://http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=60]leaky lounge[/url]
Read through several of the posts on that forum for some fascinating information on the astronomy that may be at work in the naming/relationships in the Black family and beyond.
The idea of being Heir of Slytherin is a totally different question from whether Harry is RELATED to Voldemort.
"Heir" just means that someone is somehow entitled to the possessions/status of someone else. It has nothing intrinsically to do with blood--technically my dog could be my heir; however blood descendency has been used as a primary determinant of who inherits or is 'heir to' the possessions/status of those who die. So Fish, I think the notion of "heir" very much can be used the way I am suggesting.
My point was that JKR has been forcing the issue of blood and whether blood matters on us since the start of the series. In some ways blood matters (Lily's sacrifice, tho what that has to do with blood I have no idea), but in other ways it doesnt (LV's ideology which is premised on his own bad faith about his own heritage). The overwhelming point seems to be that choices matter more than blood, and the only reason Lily's sacrifice confers protection for Harry as long as he remains with his blood brethren is because she made that choice to sacrifice herself.
So the idea of being "heir" seems to be legitimately, in this series, removable from the notion of blood inheritance. Again, The idea of being Heir of Slytherin is a totally different question from whether Harry is RELATED to Voldemort. It seems like the more meaningful kind of inheritance is that conferred by choice, as opposed to the small-minded and genocidal notions of blood purity that motivate LV.
And Sirren has explained how we wound up on this tangent--it was all related to how we might find out something interesting in Harry's/Sirius's/Regulus's house (a house full of items with SNAKE images on them for no apparent reason than that they were in Slytherin house while at school....the presence of such objects would seem to indicate something more important that where they happened to live while in school).
Here is a fascinating link that shows how Regulus plays out in astronomy in ways that might link him to Lupin, and some other things......[url://http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=60]leaky lounge[/url]
Read through several of the posts on that forum for some fascinating information on the astronomy that may be at work in the naming/relationships in the Black family and beyond.
Yes, but didn't this theory require that Sirius be a decendent of Slytherin? My point was that Sirius couldn't be a decendent of slytherin, as Voldemort was the last surviving decendent, so that would mean that harry, by extension, couldn't be an heir of slytherin. I don't know on the dating of the post, though, so I guess it could have been posted after sirius's death...
Anyway, how does this tie back to RAB? I missed that part somewhere in the exchange, I think. I mean, yes, I get the tie to regulus, but what does this mean about Regulus being RAB? I don't see how such a plot line would be benefitial, honestly. Is this supposed to be the "secret" Regulus found out? How would that impact the story?
But still, I don't think that the idea of the "heir of slytherin" could be used this way, really. Voldemort hasn't "inhereted" anything from slytherin. He's inhereted his place, his role in the fight. That's how Voldemort is the heir. He was heir to "salezar slytherin's noble work," the heir to the cave and the basalisk. That's all that really means. It doesn't really lead us to anywhere very interesting to say that Harry has somehow become the heir of slytherin. Besides, wouldn't Voldemort still be heir as long as he is alive, even if heir meant something more important than that? Voldemort is a direct blood decendent. Harry is the Godson indirect decendent of Slytherin. Voldemort is a blood decendent. Anyway, I had the feeling that Rowling was using monarchy as a model. An inhereted heirship, as in heir to a throne. Such things could not be inhereted via it being left to you. The line would die if there were no blood descendents. It could be that Harry is such an heir by way of his link with voldemort whereby he inhereted his powers, of course. Perhaps the ability to speak parseltounge is an indication?
-Fish
Anyway, how does this tie back to RAB? I missed that part somewhere in the exchange, I think. I mean, yes, I get the tie to regulus, but what does this mean about Regulus being RAB? I don't see how such a plot line would be benefitial, honestly. Is this supposed to be the "secret" Regulus found out? How would that impact the story?
But still, I don't think that the idea of the "heir of slytherin" could be used this way, really. Voldemort hasn't "inhereted" anything from slytherin. He's inhereted his place, his role in the fight. That's how Voldemort is the heir. He was heir to "salezar slytherin's noble work," the heir to the cave and the basalisk. That's all that really means. It doesn't really lead us to anywhere very interesting to say that Harry has somehow become the heir of slytherin. Besides, wouldn't Voldemort still be heir as long as he is alive, even if heir meant something more important than that? Voldemort is a direct blood decendent. Harry is the Godson indirect decendent of Slytherin. Voldemort is a blood decendent. Anyway, I had the feeling that Rowling was using monarchy as a model. An inhereted heirship, as in heir to a throne. Such things could not be inhereted via it being left to you. The line would die if there were no blood descendents. It could be that Harry is such an heir by way of his link with voldemort whereby he inhereted his powers, of course. Perhaps the ability to speak parseltounge is an indication?
-Fish
Well, Fish what I thought was interesting about Harry being, potentially, the heir of Slytherin is that it would throw LV's nonsense in his face--his whole life was predicated on his obsession with his heritage, and yet it has already been a lie (he is half-blood); would it not be a final note of irony/defeat if he was not even the only heir of Slytherin? If lowly Harry, child of the foolish woman, was the contending heir? I was seeing it as a potential note of beautiful poetic justice, that LV would be defeated on his own terms, showing the utter vacancy of those terms.
The connection to RAB was the snake stuff in the house--what are the Blacks to Slytherin? If the Blacks are in any manner heirs to Slytherin line, did this fact either consciously or by way of eventual poetic justice factor into RAB's actions vis a vis the locket? Also, if the Blacks are somehow in the Slytherin line, then Sirius as the last one left would have been that heir, thereby being able to pass it on to Harry.
So the RAB connection was that Harry has to figure out that RAB is Regulus, and will probably think the house is a little more interesting once he realizes that, and will maybe think of speaking parseltongue to the Snake images in the house. But once I reflected on this, the possibility of the "poetic justice" dimension took shape in my head. I grant that it may be improbable, but it does help to set in relief the (negative, nonsensical) significance of blood-thinking.
The connection to RAB was the snake stuff in the house--what are the Blacks to Slytherin? If the Blacks are in any manner heirs to Slytherin line, did this fact either consciously or by way of eventual poetic justice factor into RAB's actions vis a vis the locket? Also, if the Blacks are somehow in the Slytherin line, then Sirius as the last one left would have been that heir, thereby being able to pass it on to Harry.
So the RAB connection was that Harry has to figure out that RAB is Regulus, and will probably think the house is a little more interesting once he realizes that, and will maybe think of speaking parseltongue to the Snake images in the house. But once I reflected on this, the possibility of the "poetic justice" dimension took shape in my head. I grant that it may be improbable, but it does help to set in relief the (negative, nonsensical) significance of blood-thinking.
It is entirely possible that something as simple as Harry mentioning the locket's note to Lupin will trigger the light bulb. Hey! Those were Regulus's initials. What the heck?! Let us look at Regulus. Lupin knew Regulus and he is the last one left of the Mauraders to link them together, at least from the same generation.
If Snape came back to the good side before James and Lliy were murdered, and Regulus was allegedly killed by Voldemort, or upon his orders, about the time Harry was born, there is a gap between the two events of nearly a year. (give or take)
What is it that links Snape to Regulus, aside from them both being Death Eaters at the same time?
If Snape came back to the good side before James and Lliy were murdered, and Regulus was allegedly killed by Voldemort, or upon his orders, about the time Harry was born, there is a gap between the two events of nearly a year. (give or take)
What is it that links Snape to Regulus, aside from them both being Death Eaters at the same time?
That is a definete possibility. Although, honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the book opens with Harry returning from his summer holiday with the same conclusion we had coming from our "summer holiday" and realized that Regulus could have been RAB. It may not happen like that. Jo may like to work up the dramatic irony a bit. who knows?
I am going to go on believing RAB to be Regulus, because it seems to fit. There are no new major characters to be announced, and RAB is/was/is going to be a major character, even if for a short period.
Regulus was in the Slytherin gang lead by Lestrange and Bellatrix, so was Snape. They were mentioned to almost all have become Death Eaters. We know Snape did, until he reversed direction and defected to Dumbledore's side.
Let me offer that Snape was directed to kill Regulus on Voldemort's orders. We know that Snape has seen terrible things, McGonagall tells us he has, because he has been a Death Eater.
The reason I mention this is Snape's goading of Sirius seems to go beyond a boyhood grudge. We know that Snape hated James/Sirius and visa versa. Dumbledore thought Snape could get over the issue Snape had with James, then found he was sadly mistaken. It is important to note that Dumbledore made Snape and Sirius shake hands and recognize they were now on the same side. However, Snape taunts Sirius about staying stuck in the house while everyone else is doing dangerous work for the Order. Personally, I think that Snape is being his snide self and trying to hint to Sirius that he knows much more about dangerous work than Sirius can imagine: he was tasked to MURDER his brother and I think he hid him instead.
Think about it. Voldemort is allegedly the most skilled Occlumens/Legimence in the world - I offer that Snape is far superior to Voldemort in these skills. He has to be to have "hoodwinked" (to use Snape's word in Spinner's End) Voldemort all these years. Voldemort TOLD Snape to kill Regulus for treason, and Snape not only did NOT kill him, he might have hid him for the long haul. Then I wonder if Crookshanks isn't Regulus transfigured by McGonnagal or even Snape himself. We don't know how skilled Snape is in the other forms of magic, but I would offer he is extremely powerful in all he takes on.
Regulus was in the Slytherin gang lead by Lestrange and Bellatrix, so was Snape. They were mentioned to almost all have become Death Eaters. We know Snape did, until he reversed direction and defected to Dumbledore's side.
Let me offer that Snape was directed to kill Regulus on Voldemort's orders. We know that Snape has seen terrible things, McGonagall tells us he has, because he has been a Death Eater.
The reason I mention this is Snape's goading of Sirius seems to go beyond a boyhood grudge. We know that Snape hated James/Sirius and visa versa. Dumbledore thought Snape could get over the issue Snape had with James, then found he was sadly mistaken. It is important to note that Dumbledore made Snape and Sirius shake hands and recognize they were now on the same side. However, Snape taunts Sirius about staying stuck in the house while everyone else is doing dangerous work for the Order. Personally, I think that Snape is being his snide self and trying to hint to Sirius that he knows much more about dangerous work than Sirius can imagine: he was tasked to MURDER his brother and I think he hid him instead.
Think about it. Voldemort is allegedly the most skilled Occlumens/Legimence in the world - I offer that Snape is far superior to Voldemort in these skills. He has to be to have "hoodwinked" (to use Snape's word in Spinner's End) Voldemort all these years. Voldemort TOLD Snape to kill Regulus for treason, and Snape not only did NOT kill him, he might have hid him for the long haul. Then I wonder if Crookshanks isn't Regulus transfigured by McGonnagal or even Snape himself. We don't know how skilled Snape is in the other forms of magic, but I would offer he is extremely powerful in all he takes on.
Funny, I was just speculating elsewhere that Snape's taunting of Sirius may have Snape's memory of Regulus behind it, in part.
If Snape was tasked to kill Regulus, and hid him (under the cloak, at Lupins, is my favorite hypothesis right now), that makes his taunting of Sirius regarding being cooped up in the house all the more sneering and meaningful.
The possibility of Crookshanks being Regulus (cooped up in the store with no one wanting him until Hermoine comes in, perhaps because he was charmed to not be wanted UNTIL she came in) would fit nicely with Crookshanks' friendship with dog-Sirius.
Now, what does Snape say to Sirius about his dog form? If there was something about that, it would make this that much more interesting.
The problem with Crookshanks being Regulus is that Harry legitimately inherited Kreacher. For Regulus to still be alive, someone (like DD) would have to have performed some magic to make it that his absence from the family line is genuine enough to fool the magic of elf enslavement (whatever that might be, and we don't know).
Another possibility is that Crookshanks is the next life of Regulus. Regulus the human did die. But is reincarnated as Crookshanks (cats are alleged to have multiple lives, after all). Reincarnation is the one form of playing with life and death we have not met in these books, and yet it is one of the main forms of blurring that boundary. Yet, would it interfere with the DD philosophy about death?
If Snape was tasked to kill Regulus, and hid him (under the cloak, at Lupins, is my favorite hypothesis right now), that makes his taunting of Sirius regarding being cooped up in the house all the more sneering and meaningful.
The possibility of Crookshanks being Regulus (cooped up in the store with no one wanting him until Hermoine comes in, perhaps because he was charmed to not be wanted UNTIL she came in) would fit nicely with Crookshanks' friendship with dog-Sirius.
Now, what does Snape say to Sirius about his dog form? If there was something about that, it would make this that much more interesting.
The problem with Crookshanks being Regulus is that Harry legitimately inherited Kreacher. For Regulus to still be alive, someone (like DD) would have to have performed some magic to make it that his absence from the family line is genuine enough to fool the magic of elf enslavement (whatever that might be, and we don't know).
Another possibility is that Crookshanks is the next life of Regulus. Regulus the human did die. But is reincarnated as Crookshanks (cats are alleged to have multiple lives, after all). Reincarnation is the one form of playing with life and death we have not met in these books, and yet it is one of the main forms of blurring that boundary. Yet, would it interfere with the DD philosophy about death?
Snape actually told Sirius how stupid he was to bound after the Hogwart's Express saying goodbye to Harry, because Lucius saw him. Gave him the perfect reason to stay completely hidden in number 12 Grimmauld Place. That was why he goaded him SO hard. Snape alluded that Sirius showed himself by Harry's side thus allowing himself to be hidden now that his animagus form is known, because of Peter.
Also, Dumbledore said, "Come over to the right Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the times comes, we can protect him too..."
OMG~ There it is right in plain sight.
"No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, not yours, that matters now."
Dumbledore's mercy is why Snape had to kill him. I believed it to be true, but there is the evidence right there.
I believe Regulus is alive and hidden. Even JKR's quote about him being pretty quite right now since he is dead fits perfectly. You can't kill someone that is already dead. Snape duped LV about that death.
Also, Dumbledore said, "Come over to the right Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the times comes, we can protect him too..."
OMG~ There it is right in plain sight.
"No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, not yours, that matters now."
Dumbledore's mercy is why Snape had to kill him. I believed it to be true, but there is the evidence right there.
I believe Regulus is alive and hidden. Even JKR's quote about him being pretty quite right now since he is dead fits perfectly. You can't kill someone that is already dead. Snape duped LV about that death.
i went back and reread the chapter about the cave and unfortunately, you guys were right: no parsle tongue required 
haha so that shoots down my whole idea about that.
I have a quick question though:
so does this mean that regulus went to school with lestrange and bellatrix, and we know that they went to school with voldemort (slughorn called out bellatrix's name in the memory...) so regulus (and snape) went to school with voldemort? And if snape went to school with voldemort, then james and lilly and sirius and lupin must have went to school with voldemort too. so this means that all of them went to school with mcgonnigal because mcgonnigal went to school with voldemort... is that right? sorry im just really confused...
haha so that shoots down my whole idea about that.I have a quick question though:
QUOTE
Regulus was in the Slytherin gang lead by Lestrange and Bellatrix, so was Snape. They were mentioned to almost all have become Death Eaters. We know Snape did, until he reversed direction and defected to Dumbledore's side.
so does this mean that regulus went to school with lestrange and bellatrix, and we know that they went to school with voldemort (slughorn called out bellatrix's name in the memory...) so regulus (and snape) went to school with voldemort? And if snape went to school with voldemort, then james and lilly and sirius and lupin must have went to school with voldemort too. so this means that all of them went to school with mcgonnigal because mcgonnigal went to school with voldemort... is that right? sorry im just really confused...
Waiti, now I'm confused. I thought I had checked and found a male LeStrange from Tom Riddle's generation, father of the LeStrange to whom Bella is married. But now I find no such person on the Lexicon. LeStrange is in Slughorn's memory, but Bella and Rodolphus and Rabastan are all allegedly James and Sirius' generation. Can anyone straighten this out?
The ones we know went to school with Riddle in the story are McGonagall and Hagrid. Plus some of the DE that are still alive.
James Lily Peter and Sirius were in Snape's year. Regulus was behind them. Hard to say if Snape would have had anything to do with Regulus despite being in the gang, given his relationship to Sirius. But maybe Snape revelled in the corruption of Sirius's brother, and saw it as a way of getting back at him, being a DE with Regulus.
Sirren, I think you have hit the nail on the head about the "mercy" comment. I had thought that he was talking about his willingness to hide Draco. But the mercy is to save Draco from performing his first murder. He has already used an unforgivable curse, we know that, on Harry. But murder is worse and Snape/DD have saved him that. (Course it's possible that Snape killed DD in order to doom the Malfoy family, but I doubt it.)
The ones we know went to school with Riddle in the story are McGonagall and Hagrid. Plus some of the DE that are still alive.
James Lily Peter and Sirius were in Snape's year. Regulus was behind them. Hard to say if Snape would have had anything to do with Regulus despite being in the gang, given his relationship to Sirius. But maybe Snape revelled in the corruption of Sirius's brother, and saw it as a way of getting back at him, being a DE with Regulus.
Sirren, I think you have hit the nail on the head about the "mercy" comment. I had thought that he was talking about his willingness to hide Draco. But the mercy is to save Draco from performing his first murder. He has already used an unforgivable curse, we know that, on Harry. But murder is worse and Snape/DD have saved him that. (Course it's possible that Snape killed DD in order to doom the Malfoy family, but I doubt it.)
Snape was not at the school the same time as LV. Snape was there with Regulus, and along with the Marauders and Lily. We also have a debt to paid to Harry by the other remaining maurader who is a DE and attended school with Regulus. Could Peter be the link to RAB that Harry will depend on.
As for Sirius dog form, unless Snape told Malfoy and the other DE's how would they have known, was Snape's remark just to goad Sirius.
What is the time line for Regulus's death, was it to have happened before or after Snape got caught spying on DD and Trelawny or after? If he died before this night how could Snape have helped DD if he was still working for LV?
As for Sirius dog form, unless Snape told Malfoy and the other DE's how would they have known, was Snape's remark just to goad Sirius.
What is the time line for Regulus's death, was it to have happened before or after Snape got caught spying on DD and Trelawny or after? If he died before this night how could Snape have helped DD if he was still working for LV?
I was just rereading the interview where JKR said Regulus would be "a fine guess" for the identity of RAB. The way the interview proceeds, it seems rather unambiguous that she is admitting that RAB is Regulus--there are spots in that interview where they go from the initials to Regulus's name as if it's all settled.
See:http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm
Anyhow, Regulus's dates are all indeterminate. He may have been born in 1961, since he was supposed to be a year or two younger that Sirius, and Sirius was born in 1959 (give or take). If Lupin is taken at his word, he died in 1980, which is the year before the Potters died, and the year of Harry's birth.
Regulus would have been out of school for one or at most two years when he "died". That makes sense, since JKR makes it very clear that he got cold feet on the DE rather quickly.
When I read JKR's quotes on Regulus, she is lots more hospitable to him than she is to Draco, who she likens to him. She seems rather fond of Regulus, much more so than Draco, who she just feels sorry for and finds morally repulsive. What might this say about Regulus's fate in the backstory?
See:http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm
Anyhow, Regulus's dates are all indeterminate. He may have been born in 1961, since he was supposed to be a year or two younger that Sirius, and Sirius was born in 1959 (give or take). If Lupin is taken at his word, he died in 1980, which is the year before the Potters died, and the year of Harry's birth.
Regulus would have been out of school for one or at most two years when he "died". That makes sense, since JKR makes it very clear that he got cold feet on the DE rather quickly.
When I read JKR's quotes on Regulus, she is lots more hospitable to him than she is to Draco, who she likens to him. She seems rather fond of Regulus, much more so than Draco, who she just feels sorry for and finds morally repulsive. What might this say about Regulus's fate in the backstory?
Sirius effectively turned his back on Regulus when he began living with James. As I recall that was when Sirius was 16. I find that Regulus was born in 1961, the Mauraders, Snape and Lily in 1958. Perhaps this is inaccurate, I do not know.
So, we have a 13 year old Regulus going to the same school as his cool, popular brother,yet they are estranged. Or maybe they were not? Hmmmm.
Sirius is the source of information on the gang of Slytherin's with which Snape was a part of during his Hogwart's days, those he said almost all turned out to be Death Eaters. GoF pg. 531. Yet, Sirius still says this about Snape, "There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just don't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwart's if he'd ever worked for Voldemort."
So, did the sulky Snape go into Voldemort's circle to rescue Regulus? Because, somehow Dumbledore kept Snape from Azkaban by vouching for him to the Wizengot. A simple little "he is not bad" would never have saved him from Azkaban...it seems logical to conclude the Wizenmagot, or those that served at that time, would know the defense Dumbledore offered for Snape's salvation from Azkaban. Perhaps the secret of why Dumbledore trusted Snape is still out there for Harry to find, other than from Snape himself.
Could Snape have been sent in as a spy from the get-go to rescue Regulus? Could Regulus have come to Dumbledore to be protected?
I've confused even myself, but I managed to get it down in print. lol
So, we have a 13 year old Regulus going to the same school as his cool, popular brother,yet they are estranged. Or maybe they were not? Hmmmm.
Sirius is the source of information on the gang of Slytherin's with which Snape was a part of during his Hogwart's days, those he said almost all turned out to be Death Eaters. GoF pg. 531. Yet, Sirius still says this about Snape, "There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just don't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwart's if he'd ever worked for Voldemort."
So, did the sulky Snape go into Voldemort's circle to rescue Regulus? Because, somehow Dumbledore kept Snape from Azkaban by vouching for him to the Wizengot. A simple little "he is not bad" would never have saved him from Azkaban...it seems logical to conclude the Wizenmagot, or those that served at that time, would know the defense Dumbledore offered for Snape's salvation from Azkaban. Perhaps the secret of why Dumbledore trusted Snape is still out there for Harry to find, other than from Snape himself.
Could Snape have been sent in as a spy from the get-go to rescue Regulus? Could Regulus have come to Dumbledore to be protected?
I've confused even myself, but I managed to get it down in print. lol
DD does frequently reference Snape having been a Death Eater, but having reverted; and JKR seems to discuss it that way--that DD has heard Snape's reason for leaving the DE and believes it.
On Sirius and Regulus:
I could see their being estranged, given Sirius's departure from the family ideologically and physically. Like an earlier version of Percy. Able to compartmentalize in light of an image of oneself. What Sirius says about Snape seems to betray something about Sirius:
...if he had ever worked for Voldemort. Sirius sees things, despite what he sometimes advises Harry, in kind of black and white terms. He accepted full guilt for James and Lily's death in PoA--when in fact his responsibility was tangential, not integral, to their deaths. Sirius has a hard time with gray zones--hence his brooding in his room rather than spending more time with Harry over the summer. He is not emotionally mature.
So lately I'm thinking that Snape WAS a DE at some point, got into it like Draco and Regulus but got cold feet, tho he was more capable than them of dealing with those realities. He is also more bright than either of them (I am thinking) and able to see through ideological nonsense. And he may have woken up to the irony of a half-blood following a half-blood who advocates the supremacy of pure-bloods. Perhaps DD helped him come to respect himself more than that.
I agree, tho--whatever DD told the Wizengamot, it was persuasive. Just had a thought--part of the Wizengamot for Harry's hearing was Umbridge. Would she have been part of Snape's trial as well? Does she have some kind of track record with him, that hovers behind her questions of him during the inquisition? Curious....
Regulus would have needed direction upon his getting out, and in order to get out, of the DE. Was Snape even in DD's employ yet? I dont think so....Lupin was the one available, if we grant James's preoccupation with eluding LV and Pettigrew's being, we can assume, a known DE to Regulus.
Oh, no. If Regulus got out, wouldn't he have outed Peter? But he does not appear to. This may speak to his having died promptly as Lupin tells us. But, maybe he need not really have been alive very long to have been lent the cloak.
On Sirius and Regulus:
I could see their being estranged, given Sirius's departure from the family ideologically and physically. Like an earlier version of Percy. Able to compartmentalize in light of an image of oneself. What Sirius says about Snape seems to betray something about Sirius:
QUOTE
and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't, but I just don't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwart's if he'd ever worked for Voldemort."
...if he had ever worked for Voldemort. Sirius sees things, despite what he sometimes advises Harry, in kind of black and white terms. He accepted full guilt for James and Lily's death in PoA--when in fact his responsibility was tangential, not integral, to their deaths. Sirius has a hard time with gray zones--hence his brooding in his room rather than spending more time with Harry over the summer. He is not emotionally mature.
So lately I'm thinking that Snape WAS a DE at some point, got into it like Draco and Regulus but got cold feet, tho he was more capable than them of dealing with those realities. He is also more bright than either of them (I am thinking) and able to see through ideological nonsense. And he may have woken up to the irony of a half-blood following a half-blood who advocates the supremacy of pure-bloods. Perhaps DD helped him come to respect himself more than that.
I agree, tho--whatever DD told the Wizengamot, it was persuasive. Just had a thought--part of the Wizengamot for Harry's hearing was Umbridge. Would she have been part of Snape's trial as well? Does she have some kind of track record with him, that hovers behind her questions of him during the inquisition? Curious....
Regulus would have needed direction upon his getting out, and in order to get out, of the DE. Was Snape even in DD's employ yet? I dont think so....Lupin was the one available, if we grant James's preoccupation with eluding LV and Pettigrew's being, we can assume, a known DE to Regulus.
Oh, no. If Regulus got out, wouldn't he have outed Peter? But he does not appear to. This may speak to his having died promptly as Lupin tells us. But, maybe he need not really have been alive very long to have been lent the cloak.
If RAB is Regulus and Regulus did die when he was alleged to die, then who is the one that is not properly dead? More importantly, why does Dumbledore tell us, via Draco and an immobilized Harry, that someone or plural can be hidden more effectively that you can imagine?
If RAB is Regulus and he IS dead, which I doubt now, who is hidden? Not James and/or Lily, not Sirius - we know where he is, who else is there?
The information on Regulus is miniscule for a reason. If Regulus IS hidden, now that Dumbledore is dead, is Lupin the only that one would know?
OMG!!! What if Regulus is a werewolf and is living amongst them? Might Fenrir not know who he was before he joined them? Could he have joined them like a vagabond werewolf with no affiliations???
If RAB is Regulus and he IS dead, which I doubt now, who is hidden? Not James and/or Lily, not Sirius - we know where he is, who else is there?
The information on Regulus is miniscule for a reason. If Regulus IS hidden, now that Dumbledore is dead, is Lupin the only that one would know?
OMG!!! What if Regulus is a werewolf and is living amongst them? Might Fenrir not know who he was before he joined them? Could he have joined them like a vagabond werewolf with no affiliations???
Pumpkinjuice, in another thread, you brought up the idea of an unbreakable vow being used to create a horocrux. If that is the case and RAB is the one who made the vow, the letter refering to him dying would make sense. He plans to break the vow and in duing so he dies. Or what if RAB, and my money is on Regulus, was asked to make this vow and that is why he tuned back and tried to get out.
Or we can play the game that he is still alive and in hiding, his vow was to protect the locket, even though he switches the locket in the cave, the real one is at the Blacks house and still protected, no harm has come to it, and the horocrux is still intact inside. And the catch is LV won't find it where it was suppose to be if needed.
Or we can play the game that he is still alive and in hiding, his vow was to protect the locket, even though he switches the locket in the cave, the real one is at the Blacks house and still protected, no harm has come to it, and the horocrux is still intact inside. And the catch is LV won't find it where it was suppose to be if needed.
If to create a Horcrux Voldemort actually required an accomplice, would Voldemort have done it multiple times? Would it not stand to reason that whomever he used to perform/cast/seal the spell he would then murder? He would never allow himself a vulnerability such as someone knowing that he was making them. No, I have to backpeddle on this one and change my mind.
If someone else was required they would be dead as soon as the spell was cast, at Voldemort's hand in secret.
Voldemort would not place himself in such a vulnerability with breath-taking liabilities.
I still conclude RAB is/was Regulus, but I have to stand that he discovered the secret on his own or with inside help (other than Voldemort) just as his note details.
If someone else was required they would be dead as soon as the spell was cast, at Voldemort's hand in secret.
Voldemort would not place himself in such a vulnerability with breath-taking liabilities.
I still conclude RAB is/was Regulus, but I have to stand that he discovered the secret on his own or with inside help (other than Voldemort) just as his note details.
I dont know that using the same person repeatedly, if it was the right person, would bother him. He might take some sick glee in it, actually. Especially if, as is probably the case the first time he talked to him, Tom altered the memory of the person he is using. Keep enough in there to frighten them into conspiring each time, but not so much that they would expose you.
Slughorn can be motivated through fear and greed. LV knows this, he knows how to use people's weaknesses. Slughorn's snivelling concern for himself makes him not particularly dangerous to LV, especially with memory charms. I think Tom would love the extended use of his old house-head, just as he seems to keep Wormtail around even tho wormtail is not really a true believer. He knows how to use him.
For the record, I didnt mean that an unbreakable vow was involved in horcrux creation, tho perhaps it is--that in fact could guarantee silence. I was just using the analogy of a third party being required, as is the case in the UV, but also the Fidelius Charm, marriages, etc.
Slughorn can be motivated through fear and greed. LV knows this, he knows how to use people's weaknesses. Slughorn's snivelling concern for himself makes him not particularly dangerous to LV, especially with memory charms. I think Tom would love the extended use of his old house-head, just as he seems to keep Wormtail around even tho wormtail is not really a true believer. He knows how to use him.
For the record, I didnt mean that an unbreakable vow was involved in horcrux creation, tho perhaps it is--that in fact could guarantee silence. I was just using the analogy of a third party being required, as is the case in the UV, but also the Fidelius Charm, marriages, etc.
Yes; maybe in the same sense as an unbreakable vow I could see and accept that a Horcrux requires another person as a witness or co-conspirator. If their life was bound by silence, as in the unbreakable vow, it would not only fit it would be fitting. He must kill a victim to create the soul split, then use a witness to help him place it in the vessel? Is that where you are driving with this?
Because, that I really can get behind! But it might make the playing field more dangerous for Harry, if the "co-conspirator" guarded their Horcrux location personally.
Because, that I really can get behind! But it might make the playing field more dangerous for Harry, if the "co-conspirator" guarded their Horcrux location personally.
I guess I'm imagining something like this: In making a horcrux, you are yanking a piece of your soul out, and trying to make sure it gets directed into another object. That seems like a lot to be doing for the one whose soul is being split, which I cannot imagine is a pretty process. So having someone there directing the process, perhaps even under coercion, managing the process makes sense. So that person acts as a conduit, insuring the safe passage of the bit of soul from person to object.
LV might see fit to use an Unbreakable Vow to insure the continued loyalty of such an individual, but that would introduce still a third person into the mix, so two DE's per horcrux--thats a bit too much..... I'm still of the mind that LV's reference to "experiments" and "steps he took" when talking to the DE in the graveyard was an indication that the notion of horcruxes was not foreign to them, and that each horcrux involved the assistance of a single DE. And that Regulus, perhaps, recognizing the horror of what he was involved in, finally, bolted.
You know, I was wondering.....what if Regulus had already destroyed the horcrux, but knew how to do it without destroying the locket? Being involved in its creation, he might have been able to do this. I was wondering, because it struck me that the potion, which Regulus apparently replaced, could contain the piece of soul that Regulus took out of the locket. Liquified horror--full of the pleading of former victims.....
About to drink the liquid, DD says "Your health, Harry!", and then later when they leave the cave he says, "That was no health drink". These two comments, some of the few words he utters at that point in the story, seem to fit together with the word "health". Cant help but wonder if health and souls go together there somehow......
LV might see fit to use an Unbreakable Vow to insure the continued loyalty of such an individual, but that would introduce still a third person into the mix, so two DE's per horcrux--thats a bit too much..... I'm still of the mind that LV's reference to "experiments" and "steps he took" when talking to the DE in the graveyard was an indication that the notion of horcruxes was not foreign to them, and that each horcrux involved the assistance of a single DE. And that Regulus, perhaps, recognizing the horror of what he was involved in, finally, bolted.
You know, I was wondering.....what if Regulus had already destroyed the horcrux, but knew how to do it without destroying the locket? Being involved in its creation, he might have been able to do this. I was wondering, because it struck me that the potion, which Regulus apparently replaced, could contain the piece of soul that Regulus took out of the locket. Liquified horror--full of the pleading of former victims.....
About to drink the liquid, DD says "Your health, Harry!", and then later when they leave the cave he says, "That was no health drink". These two comments, some of the few words he utters at that point in the story, seem to fit together with the word "health". Cant help but wonder if health and souls go together there somehow......
Okay, so I slept on your theory. The only holes I find, which are not considerable, are basic.
Firstly, Dumbledore not only knows of Horcruxes, he has personally banned the teaching of them, as well as the discussion of them. Slughorn tells Tom, "Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." So, thus said, I conclude Dumbledore knows how to make one, is aware of the Dark Magic required. Wouldn't he tell Harry that another person must participate with Voldemort to create one? At this point in the learning process, I don't see how holding such a vital piece of information from Harry would be helpful. So, although I bet each Horcrux is known by only one DE and an unbreakable vow may have been taken for its' safety, I still think Voldemort did the Horcruxes alone.
Secondly, whomever would Voldemort have used to cover all his Horcruxes? We have Lucius with the Diary, Bellatrix with something - you suggested the cup, Regulus with the locket? Although I think Voldemort may have tasked a young lad to do something horrific, I don't think he would have tasked Regulus to be the keeper of a Horcrux. That is too foolhardly, even for Voldemort.
I deeply like the idea, but I would not think Dumbledore would have held that back from Harry. Dumbledore must know loads of Dark Magic: you cannot fight that which you know not. Just because you know something does not require you use that knowledge. Dumbledore must have ideas of what Voldemort has learned and Horcruxes must not be anything new for Dumbledore.
Firstly, Dumbledore not only knows of Horcruxes, he has personally banned the teaching of them, as well as the discussion of them. Slughorn tells Tom, "Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..." So, thus said, I conclude Dumbledore knows how to make one, is aware of the Dark Magic required. Wouldn't he tell Harry that another person must participate with Voldemort to create one? At this point in the learning process, I don't see how holding such a vital piece of information from Harry would be helpful. So, although I bet each Horcrux is known by only one DE and an unbreakable vow may have been taken for its' safety, I still think Voldemort did the Horcruxes alone.
Secondly, whomever would Voldemort have used to cover all his Horcruxes? We have Lucius with the Diary, Bellatrix with something - you suggested the cup, Regulus with the locket? Although I think Voldemort may have tasked a young lad to do something horrific, I don't think he would have tasked Regulus to be the keeper of a Horcrux. That is too foolhardly, even for Voldemort.
I deeply like the idea, but I would not think Dumbledore would have held that back from Harry. Dumbledore must know loads of Dark Magic: you cannot fight that which you know not. Just because you know something does not require you use that knowledge. Dumbledore must have ideas of what Voldemort has learned and Horcruxes must not be anything new for Dumbledore.
I agree that DD must know alot about horcruxes to have banned them as a subject in the school. We really do have to bear in mind that DD is likely to know a great deal about Dark Magic. It is also possible that he has had to do some of it.
Now, DD is not headmaster when Slughorn says that to Tom....that's an interesting comment. That he is fierce about it even as a teacher, long before he assumes leadership, is interesting. So DD has learned about horcruxes during his period of self-teaching of magic between school and teaching, perhaps during the battle with Grindelwald. He had that kind of worry on his brain when he met Tom the first time, holding "trophies" of his victims. I think his mind put two and two together right then and there. Trophies, willful isolation, control of magic, sadistic enjoyment of manipulating others--no wonder DD was watching like a hawk.
As to holding things back from Harry, I dont know--some very fundamental things have been held back from him up to this point--it is only on the night of DD's actual death that harry gets his first taste of what protections the horcruxes might entail. DD has still never explained Snape, he hasnt told Harry things about his parents. The involvement of the DE may not be all that important, if their role was more in their creation than their hiding/guarding. It became important on this thread because we are trying to figure out the role of Regulus with the DE and after. So its importance for Harry may be limited to that, and perhaps DD figures Harry will figure that out in due course with the helps he has left.....
Now, DD is not headmaster when Slughorn says that to Tom....that's an interesting comment. That he is fierce about it even as a teacher, long before he assumes leadership, is interesting. So DD has learned about horcruxes during his period of self-teaching of magic between school and teaching, perhaps during the battle with Grindelwald. He had that kind of worry on his brain when he met Tom the first time, holding "trophies" of his victims. I think his mind put two and two together right then and there. Trophies, willful isolation, control of magic, sadistic enjoyment of manipulating others--no wonder DD was watching like a hawk.
As to holding things back from Harry, I dont know--some very fundamental things have been held back from him up to this point--it is only on the night of DD's actual death that harry gets his first taste of what protections the horcruxes might entail. DD has still never explained Snape, he hasnt told Harry things about his parents. The involvement of the DE may not be all that important, if their role was more in their creation than their hiding/guarding. It became important on this thread because we are trying to figure out the role of Regulus with the DE and after. So its importance for Harry may be limited to that, and perhaps DD figures Harry will figure that out in due course with the helps he has left.....
I did get the impression after reading the conclusion of OOTP that DD was trying to come clean to Harry about as much as possible. That there are still vital parts DD willfully withheld from Harry is implied. There is a major spoiler reason why DD has not confided in Harry of trust in Snape. Although bothersome to me, because I WANT TO KNOW, if Harry were to know before book 7, the suspense would be gone.
In HBP I believe DD tried to tell Harry as much as he could that would pertinent to his struggle against Voldemort.
It would be helpful to know concretely if/if not DD knew there was going to be a fake locket in the cave. I still maintain DD took Harry to the cave because he knew he was running out of "life time." He had to show him how difficult ahead the task was to be.
In HBP I believe DD tried to tell Harry as much as he could that would pertinent to his struggle against Voldemort.
It would be helpful to know concretely if/if not DD knew there was going to be a fake locket in the cave. I still maintain DD took Harry to the cave because he knew he was running out of "life time." He had to show him how difficult ahead the task was to be.
I like the theory of needing an accomplis to create a horocrux, but the flaw I have came to me in another thread. If Snape and Regulus both turned on LV and came to DD, why it that Siruis was never cleared prior to PoA. One of them should have known that Sirius was not a DE and that Peter was.
QUOTE
I like the theory of needing an accomplis to create a horocrux, but the flaw I have came to me in another thread. If Snape and Regulus both turned on LV and came to DD, why it that Siruis was never cleared prior to PoA. One of them should have known that Sirius was not a DE and that Peter was.
Good point. But i dont think that they knew that peter was a DE. snape fled the DE when he first heard the prophecy (or when he learned that voldemort was going to kill lily) and i believe that peter wasnt a DE yet. I think that peter became a DE after the fact he was made secret keeper (he got scared that voldemort would come after him for info on where the potters were, so peter found voldemort before voldemort found peter)
as for needing an accomplice to make horcruxes... i dont think there would be (in voldemorts case at least). I mean, what was the point that dumbledore was trying to pound into harrys head over and over and over and over and over again? Voldemort is ALONE (in all aspects). he doesnt want friends, and he looks out for himself, he only cares about himself, yatta yatta yatta. So, i think it would go against the very character of voldemort to have someone there, witnessing voldemorts most gaurded secret (alongside of his lineage)
The only way i see voldemort using an accomplice is if the horcrux "spell/charm" or whatever you call it, was if it REQUIRED 2 people to perform. And like someone else said before that is a huge piece of info that DD just left out (but then again, DD did hide a lot of other things from harry. but again again haha... DD was trying to come clean. and i dont think DD would leave that out)
voldemort is a loner, and will always be a loner to the very end. even if harry is beating voldemort in the final battle, and the DE are around, voldemort wouldnt call for their help. that is just how voldemort is. he doesnt know any other way to live. so for voldemort to have an accomplice to help him with a piece of himself is very very very very difficult for me to see. i hope that makes sense
also, could have regulus destroyed the locket (or at least the horcrux in it?)? it is possible. i mean a good way to test it would to put it on... i think that DD put the ring on and it maimed his hand. so if someone put on the locket and it does something to them, then we know that it needs to be destroyed. but if someone put on the locket and viola, nothing happened, then the soul is probably destoyed. or if we open the locket and nothing happens, then it is probably destroyed. Knowing harry (or at least hoping hermoine or someone) will be smart enough, they will destroy that locket no matter what.
Good point mexell, alot seems to have happened in less then a years time. From the point Trelawney made her prophecy until the Potters were killed.
Yes LV is a loner, but for needing an accomplice, I see it as added security, by the wording of an unbreakable vow it could be instant death to even discuss what had happened. The Diary is the only real clue we have to one being left in the custody of a DE and Malfoy did not even know what he had, so maybe the theory is barking up the wrong tree. Or was it that the diary was the first one and a special one that Tom created by himself and later decided to use an accomplice.
Yes LV is a loner, but for needing an accomplice, I see it as added security, by the wording of an unbreakable vow it could be instant death to even discuss what had happened. The Diary is the only real clue we have to one being left in the custody of a DE and Malfoy did not even know what he had, so maybe the theory is barking up the wrong tree. Or was it that the diary was the first one and a special one that Tom created by himself and later decided to use an accomplice.
Hey guys
Don't know if this has already been said, but the fake horcrux locket thing included the initials RAB. These are the initials of regulus Black--Sirius's brother who had backed out (never explained why) of Voldemort's service. Also, an unopenable locket was found in the drawing room of the House of Black.
Hmm....
Have fun with this idea
ilah
Don't know if this has already been said, but the fake horcrux locket thing included the initials RAB. These are the initials of regulus Black--Sirius's brother who had backed out (never explained why) of Voldemort's service. Also, an unopenable locket was found in the drawing room of the House of Black.
Hmm....
Have fun with this idea
ilah
Yeah, I definitely agree. For there to be an accomplice in making horcruxes, is a more than a huge substancial piece of the puzzle that Dumbledore left. The whole point was to equip Harry as much as he could. And if you recall the memory--the true memory-- from Slughorn, he tells Tom Riddle EVERYTHING there is to know, or at least, everything he knew about horcruxes and how to make them. There was not the slightest mention of needing an accomplice.
But as far as R.A.B ,we all believe that it's Regulus Black. There are a few avid fans wo still think there's a chance that it could be Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth. It might! Who really knows besides J.K. Rowling?
But back to the beginning a bit. What about that locket at No. 12 Grimmauld Place. The one that no one could open. It was in the Black house, is that more evidence that Regulus Black, is indeed R.A.B. Also, someone else gave a very good reference to a book in another language. I think it was Dutch. They said something like, in the book R.A.B was represented as "R.A.Z" and that the word for "Black" in Dutch was "Zwarts", so there's a bit o' substancial evidence fer yeh.
Cheers~*
But as far as R.A.B ,we all believe that it's Regulus Black. There are a few avid fans wo still think there's a chance that it could be Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth. It might! Who really knows besides J.K. Rowling?
But back to the beginning a bit. What about that locket at No. 12 Grimmauld Place. The one that no one could open. It was in the Black house, is that more evidence that Regulus Black, is indeed R.A.B. Also, someone else gave a very good reference to a book in another language. I think it was Dutch. They said something like, in the book R.A.B was represented as "R.A.Z" and that the word for "Black" in Dutch was "Zwarts", so there's a bit o' substancial evidence fer yeh.
Cheers~*
The whole accomplice idea, on my part anyhow, arose just because it struck me that there may be an extra person REQUIRED for the spell, just like there was for LV's regeneration spell (tho, admittedly, he seemed to not be able to wield a wand himself, so....). Anyhow, there might be something in the nature of the horcrux spell that requires a second set of hands, because it seems like some pretty powerful magic.
Slughorn:
We THINK we've seen the real memory, but some of us have been wondering if even THAT memory is incomplete/fake. We do know for sure that Tom had done at least one powerful memory charm (Morfin) before he ever talked to Slughorn. The fact that Tom is wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory is meant, I think, as a clue--that we can backtrack to what must have happened already. He has one (or three) significant death under his belt, and one memory charm. Then he comes looking for Slughorn. Is it not possible that he got alot more information from Slughorn than Slughorn's memory supplied? Is it not possible that Slughorn remembers only what Tom wanted him to remember? This kid has killed three people--will he slink from Slughorn's office without the information he really wants? Maybe that's why Slughorn did such a shoddy job on his own memory alteration--DD is aghast at its shoddiness. Perhaps because he was tampering with what was already tampered with. But his tampering itself may simply be another clue to us to think "tampered....". By a more powerful wizard than Slughorn.
So, my original idea was that Slughorn may have not only supplied the "how to" but been the assistant to the creation of these horcruxes (part of this theory was that Slughorn's memories are stored in that basin; he is one of the characters who ever demonstrates actual shame, and the basin in the cave induce shame experiences, regret, remorse, torture, coercion.)
DD said Tom/LV is a loner, does not like to be dependent. That does not at all mean that he does not USE his minions, for important work. Like getting the prophecy. He lets Lucius go in and Lucius screws up again. USING people, particularly through coercion, including imperius coercion, is in his blood. That is Pettigrew's life story.
Also, I dont want to give LV more credit than he is due (tho he should not be underestimated). Wormtail was good enough for him for years. That's pretty pathetic. Let's not blow him up into more than he actually is--thats part of how he intimidates the wizarding world. If he needs help with something, he will take that help, and then punish the helper.
Slughorn:
We THINK we've seen the real memory, but some of us have been wondering if even THAT memory is incomplete/fake. We do know for sure that Tom had done at least one powerful memory charm (Morfin) before he ever talked to Slughorn. The fact that Tom is wearing the ring in Slughorn's memory is meant, I think, as a clue--that we can backtrack to what must have happened already. He has one (or three) significant death under his belt, and one memory charm. Then he comes looking for Slughorn. Is it not possible that he got alot more information from Slughorn than Slughorn's memory supplied? Is it not possible that Slughorn remembers only what Tom wanted him to remember? This kid has killed three people--will he slink from Slughorn's office without the information he really wants? Maybe that's why Slughorn did such a shoddy job on his own memory alteration--DD is aghast at its shoddiness. Perhaps because he was tampering with what was already tampered with. But his tampering itself may simply be another clue to us to think "tampered....". By a more powerful wizard than Slughorn.
So, my original idea was that Slughorn may have not only supplied the "how to" but been the assistant to the creation of these horcruxes (part of this theory was that Slughorn's memories are stored in that basin; he is one of the characters who ever demonstrates actual shame, and the basin in the cave induce shame experiences, regret, remorse, torture, coercion.)
DD said Tom/LV is a loner, does not like to be dependent. That does not at all mean that he does not USE his minions, for important work. Like getting the prophecy. He lets Lucius go in and Lucius screws up again. USING people, particularly through coercion, including imperius coercion, is in his blood. That is Pettigrew's life story.
Also, I dont want to give LV more credit than he is due (tho he should not be underestimated). Wormtail was good enough for him for years. That's pretty pathetic. Let's not blow him up into more than he actually is--thats part of how he intimidates the wizarding world. If he needs help with something, he will take that help, and then punish the helper.
Personally, I don't think that you need another person to make a horcrux. Tom made his first horcrux at Hogwarts, so it would mean that he told someone at Hogwarts that he was making horcruxes.
In CoS, he says to Harry that he preserved his sixteen year old self into the diary, which means that he was sixteen when he made it.
And, we know that Voldemort likes to act on his own.
In CoS, he says to Harry that he preserved his sixteen year old self into the diary, which means that he was sixteen when he made it.
And, we know that Voldemort likes to act on his own.
QUOTE
Also, I dont want to give LV more credit than he is due (tho he should not be underestimated). Wormtail was good enough for him for years. That's pretty pathetic. Let's not blow him up into more than he actually is--thats part of how he intimidates the wizarding world. If he needs help with something, he will take that help, and then punish the helper.
true. voldemort is just another dark wizard bent on world domination. he has his flaws; after all he is human (well use to be at least). but then again it IS lord voldemort we are talking about (harry's words in the cave were the best way to say it). i like that last part pumpkinjuice. he would wait until the very last possible moment to call for help, and then possibly crucio the helper afterwards. funny how the DE stay so loyal... i dont see how they do it
as for slughorn's memory being a fake one, i dont think it was. I believe DD wouldve have caught something that reminded him of morfins memory. sensed that it was a fake one or something like that.
and yes, the only way i still see voldemort using an accomplice is if the creation of a horcrux required one.
Intensely important. Why do Voldemort's supporters...support him? Is he pretty? No.
Is he humane? No. Is he wonderous? No. He favors himself to be a merciful Lord.
Hmmm...why would he have followers for any reason other than horrendous fear? Does he love them? NO. Does he respect them? NO.
I recognize that a powerful person pulls in a lesser person(s) like the gravity of a sun to a planet. Is that all Voldemort has?
RAB, whomever he is (IownthatheisRegulus), transfered his loyalty from Voldemort and the cost was his death. However that death occurred, RAB offered himself sanctimoniously to the ultimate obliteration of Voldemort himself.
It does not take a brilliant man (person) to make a brilliant notion, that can happen just by a mortal man thinking in the right direction. RAB wanted Voldemort to know he was compromised...and mortal. That is important. RAB wanted Voldemort to know that he would be MORTAL when he met his match. He did not know there were multiple horcruxes.
Did he know his match had been prophesised (is that a word, cause my Webster's doesn't list it) before he ever took the locket? Does RAB sacrifice his life, take the locket, mock Voldemort and KNOW that there was a chance SOMEONE would redeem the entire wizard/muggle world and not think it WOULD HAPPEN?
No way. So, who was involved with him that knew more?
Is he humane? No. Is he wonderous? No. He favors himself to be a merciful Lord.
Hmmm...why would he have followers for any reason other than horrendous fear? Does he love them? NO. Does he respect them? NO.
I recognize that a powerful person pulls in a lesser person(s) like the gravity of a sun to a planet. Is that all Voldemort has?
RAB, whomever he is (IownthatheisRegulus), transfered his loyalty from Voldemort and the cost was his death. However that death occurred, RAB offered himself sanctimoniously to the ultimate obliteration of Voldemort himself.
It does not take a brilliant man (person) to make a brilliant notion, that can happen just by a mortal man thinking in the right direction. RAB wanted Voldemort to know he was compromised...and mortal. That is important. RAB wanted Voldemort to know that he would be MORTAL when he met his match. He did not know there were multiple horcruxes.
Did he know his match had been prophesised (is that a word, cause my Webster's doesn't list it) before he ever took the locket? Does RAB sacrifice his life, take the locket, mock Voldemort and KNOW that there was a chance SOMEONE would redeem the entire wizard/muggle world and not think it WOULD HAPPEN?
No way. So, who was involved with him that knew more?
Why do Dumbledore's followers follow him?
The answer is simple.
He is feared
ilah
The answer is simple.
He is feared
ilah
Which of DD followers feared him. At one time have we ever been presnted with any information that would lead us to beleive that DD used force to control or to make his followers do anything. DD held life in high regard and allowed the people around him make there own choices. Yes he had influence on them but he did not make them. Go back to PoA when he discovers the Sirius was framed by Peter, he made no attempt to change the mind of Fudge. The most powerful and talented wizard of his time. LV feared him, the DE's feared him, his followers reveared him.
No Slugs Memory, I do think it was the real deal, however there may have been more to it. DD got the information he was looking for and ended it there. There was still more. Also it would not suprise me to find that Slug has other memories of discussing the horocruxes. As with Morfin and the other elf, they had there memory replaced, and DD was able to dive into them further and find what he was looking for.
What I would like to know, for those who think RAB is in hiding and not dead, How could the Blacks belongings be given to Harry. DD states that the possesions were to be given to the next male of the Black bloodline. DD feared that the charm would haev extended to Bella for there were no more living Blacks. If Regulus is RAB and still alive under DD protection what would it have mattered.
No Slugs Memory, I do think it was the real deal, however there may have been more to it. DD got the information he was looking for and ended it there. There was still more. Also it would not suprise me to find that Slug has other memories of discussing the horocruxes. As with Morfin and the other elf, they had there memory replaced, and DD was able to dive into them further and find what he was looking for.
What I would like to know, for those who think RAB is in hiding and not dead, How could the Blacks belongings be given to Harry. DD states that the possesions were to be given to the next male of the Black bloodline. DD feared that the charm would haev extended to Bella for there were no more living Blacks. If Regulus is RAB and still alive under DD protection what would it have mattered.
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