Look, I agree that Snape is the one that Voldy believed had left him forever. All I'm saying is that this is not concrete proof that Snape is good. Snape could still be lying to Dumbledore and faking fear. You act like this is concrete, but it is still speculation like the rest of us.

And, for the record, I agree that Snape is good, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Well I'm glad you agree that Snape is the One that has left me forever

but you have to admit it all work out because LV HAS to know that Snape is working at Hogwarts and since he does if he believed Snape to be loyal why would he tell Jr he need to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts

"He told me he needed to place a faithful servant at Hogwarts" GoF pg 688

and Snape only returned to LV on DD's orders

Snape to Bellatrix

"Correct. I returned two hours later on Dumbledorer's orders." HBP pg 28

you see here he admits to Bellatrix the only reason he returned is because DD told him to even though he convinces her he is still working for LV

I completely agree with you, Snape is the one who Voldemort thought had left for good. I realized that when I reread GoF.
He admits that he returned later and under DD's orders, because he - in other words- didn't want to blow his cover at Hogwarts...
Also there is something very interesting in HBP, the day in which Slughorn throws the Chirstmas party, and after Snape and Malfoy go into a classroom to talk; Snape said:
" '...Where do you think I would have been all these years, if I had not known how to act?...' "
Well, to me, the situation in which Snape tries to perform Legilimency on Draco and the whole discussion between them, it is a clear sign that Sanpe's loyalties are on Dumbledore's side.

I agree about Snape's conversation with Draco. He is trying to find out what Draco is up to not only to fulfill his UV but to also report back to DD. DD knew what Draco's mission was and the attempts he had made. He said so at the tower before the other DE's joined them. I would think that the only way DD would have known what was going on is if Snape had told him. I know DD is extremely intelligent and has a way of figuring things out, but I think it's due to the possibility that a lot of the time he has inside information to help get him to the right conclusion. In this case, Snape told DD of Draco's job. He wouldn't have had any reason to tell him unless he is on DD's side. If Snape was truly on LV's side, he would have kept his mouth shut. But that's just my opinion.

Alright here we go. Snape was urked by the memory of harry looking into the mirror of elised and seeing his parents waving back at him. Can we assume that Snape has feelings for Harry's mom? Wanting to connect all of the dots, i'm reminded of Rowling's comment about how Harry has his mother's eyes is really important. I'm thinking that the connection could be that in book seven, Snape would look into harry's eyes and prevent harry from harm, because of the love for his mother.

Which would mean that he WOULD have killed Dumbledore with intentions of siding with the Dark Lord, and struggles within himself thru the seventh book, until the point where he makes his decision to side with the Order and saves harry's life because of the resemblance of Lily.

It makes book seven more interesting if we see the struggle within Snape instead of it already being decided whether he's with LV or DD. So i'm against all three votes. But if we had to look at it, it would be that he sides with LV but thru his experiences and what is to come in book seven he will struggle to find his true side within himself.

Also, when Tom was at the orphanage he was doing magic without a wand and he was just a child. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that Dumbledore, while being wandless, could still provide a substantial defense to save his own life? That would make it seem like he let himself be killed, but that doesn't go with my theory.





On that matter, I believe that he WAS scared when he heard he had to go back to Lord Voldemort. He is after all considerably comfortable with DD's graces, and Severus didn't go to look for Voldemort; he thought he was dead. He knew the Dark Lord must be mad at him.

It even mentions that he basically used DD to keep from going to Azkaban. Which shows that he had only one reason (or admits only one) for his sudden change of heart to be a good guy, to save his neck. <--Don't remember where i read any of that. Or if it's just another one of the trio's brainstormed accusations of Snape.

He went with Dumbldore to save his own skin, but had Voldemort stayed in power, he would have stayed loyal as a deatheater.

In GoF it would be difficult to determine Snape's loyalties, because he was uneasy after being long seperated from his master. After being reassociated with each other, we can watch Snape as he decides whether to remain loyal to the Order, or go back to being a death eater.

I still believe that he hasn't made up his mind, he's only done what he felt he needed to do in each situation (the unbreakable vow, and killing Dumbledore to keep his facade).

Another thing, it would be difficult for Snape to inform DD about Draco's plans in HBP if he was under an unbreakable vow to do everything he could to help Draco Succeed. It would be skirting the boundaries of helping by telling dumbledore of Draco's plans.

Everybody snape is evil. There are many speculations but the clues are inevitable. In the fifth book ron was right in saying that snape was weakening harry's mind for LV. Think about it he knew if a memory was in the pensieve and he, snape, left the room he knew that harry would look in it and so snape would have reason to kick him out of his office and stop giving him lessons. Did you notice the timing of it to. Harry was beggining to get better at occulmency. Snape knew he had to weaken him and the let LV do his plan. Also when Umbrige asked snape for some veritaserum, He should have said, "It is forbidden to use on students" like he says in the goblet of fire. Second I dont think he gave false veritaserum. Harry remember didnt drink his tea he just pretended to drink. Even if he did drink it, he really was telling the truth because he didnt know where dumbledore was and he couldnt reveal sirius location because he wasnt the secret keeper. In the order of the phoenix i believe Snape, before he warned the Order he warned the death eaters. It makes perfect sense. He didnt go look for harry he was telling the death eaters that the plan was in set. He acted as if he knew nothing about what harry was saying as to not show joy in the thought sirius was captured. He would be happy if sirius was captured and was killed. He also taunts sirius to see if it would drive he, sirius, to leave the house and get noticed or captured. In HBP, when snape says he doesnt want to do "it" anymore i believe he is talking about spying on LV which he is not doing anyway. He knows that he must kill DD soon so he knows he doesnt have to show him allegiance much longer. The clues have been in front of us they just havent been interpreted.[font=Arial Black][size=5]

Snape himself says this, to Bellatrix when she's spouting about she and her husband being the only loyal subjects Voldemort has ever had. So, it's not really concrete proof; Snape can't be trusted to reveal his true motivations. It's clear that he's a spy of some sort - so anything that he says has to be taken with a grain of salt. (He's either Voldemort's spy and or he's Dumbledore's double agent. Either way, we'd need more than his word about his loyalties -- seeing as he's claimed loyalty to both sides.)



It's in canon that Snape defected before Voldemort fell. There's no explanation for that (other than that he defected) because Voldemort did not foresee failing to kill Harry. Voldemort wouldn't have needed a double-agent, so why would he have created one? Snape had definitely defected.

That's not to say that Snape hasn't returned to Voldemort. (I don't read the series as if he did, but he might have.) But he was clearly a rebel against Voldemort at some point, and before Voldemort fell.

If you go back a page or 2 in this topic and read my full quotes (very lengthy) you will see Snape is the one who left LV FOREVER on returning because DD asked him too


Also I believe that Trewlaney's prediction when she says

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... "

That she is really talking about SNAPE because as she was making the prediction he is walking towards the door

snape knows that being in the order you have to give up lots of things.i think that he knows he has to sacrifice something in order to defeat voldermort.i believe hes a good guy.and he knew what must be done and he shouldnt reveal himself that certain things just HAVE to be done.

Luv_n_Hermione, although I believe that Snape is good, do you really think he is the one Trelawney (sp?) was talking about in her prediction? I can see where you can fit the approaches line with Snape, but that's about it. Snape was not born in the 7th month but the 1st month. We really don't know if Snape's parents thrice defied him, but I find it unlikely due to the timeline, but I guess that wouldn't be impossible. I doubt LV would mark Snape as his equal. In LV's eyes, no one is his equal or can match him. DD said LV is a loner and doesn't truly consider anyone a friend. So, I can't see him marking anyone as his equal intentionally anyways. Also, the prophecy says that the person "will be born as the seventh month dies..." Note the words "will be" and "as" in the statement. This suggests that the person hasn't been born yet. Seeing as how Snape is indeed born and alive, he wouldn't fit that part either.

I do believe that Snape will have a part to play in LV's downfall, but only in aiding Harry.

I believe that she may be talking about both Harry and Snape

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Snape (liuterally approaching)

Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... Here we don't know if Snapes parent thrice defied him but we do know that Harry's has

And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... Both...Snape has been marked with LV's Death Eater Mark willinglt marked...Harry the scar after effect

And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... " unless Trelwney is using some astological chart that is unknown to us this one goes to Harry

I disagree with you on this statement squall, in GoF Dumbledore said that Snape turned as a spy for the Order before Voldmeort’s downfall.

Secondly, I don’t think he would be off boundaries if he told Dumbledore about Malfoy’s plans...Ias a matter of fact, I think he did tell Dumbledore what he knew; because Dumbledore wasn’t all the time at Hogwarts...and for all we know, Draco was never reported to Dumbledore.

my faith is in dumbledore

I’m afraid you are contradicting yourself a bit in here; why would Snape want to stop giving Occlumency lessons to Harry (if Ron was right)?? Wouldn’t it have more sense if he continued utill he completely weakened Harry’s mind??
Actually, Harry dreaded Occlumency lessons and he didn’t see the point in them; he continued taking them because Remus and Sirius advised him to do so.



In GoF, after Harry’s name get out of the Goblet of Fire – and Harry and Ron weren’t takling to each other- during a Potions lesson, which appeared an article about a love triangle between Harry, Hermione and Krum; Snape says that the use is forbidden to use in students; but it is in a certain context; he was “threatening” Harry to use it, because he wanted to know who’d gone to his office the previous night...
Snape’s eyes flashed. He plunged a hand into the inside of his black robes. For one wild moment, Harry thought Snape was about to pull out his wand and curse him - then he saw that Snape had drawn out a small crystal bottle of a completely clear potion. Harry stared at it.
“Do you know what this is, Potter?” Snape said, his eyes glittering dangerously again.
“No,” said Harry, with complete honesty this time.
“It is Veritaserum - a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear,” said Snape viciously. “Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand slips” — he shook the crystal bottle slightly — “right over your evening pumpkin juice. And then, Potter... then we’ll find out whether you’ve been in my office or not.”
Harry said nothing. He turned back to his ginger roots once more, picked up his knife, and started slicing them again. He didn’t like the sound of that Truth Potion at all, nor would he put it past Snape to slip him some. He repressed a shudder at the thought of what might come spilling out of his mouth if Snape did it... quite apart from landing a whole lot of people in trouble — Hermione and Dobby for a start — there were all the other things he was concealing... like the fact that he was in contact with Sirius... and — his insides squirmed at the thought — how he felt about Cho... He tipped his ginger roots into the cauldron too, and wondered whether he ought to take a leaf out of Moody’s book and start drinking only from a private hip flask.
(GoF, 515-17)



Why would he warn the Death Eaters before he’d warn the Order??? The Death Eaters and Voldemort were already at the Ministry; and Voldemort counted on Harry “playing the Hero” part.



I think that she was talking all the time about the same person.
But, anyways, I see your point; as Dumbledore said the profecy is not to be taken literally...and that could mean that Harry wouldn't necesarilly have to kill Lord Voldemort; please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Luv n Hermione, there is no way the prophecy talks about Snape, or Snape and Harry. First of all, It begins with "the one who has the power..." The ONE. Not two. This prophecy is talking about one person. Snape's parents probably did not thrice defy Voldemort because it doesn't work time-wise. And the Dark Mark on Snape's arm does not mark Snape as Voldemort's equal, it makes him inferior to Voldemort, it makes him his servant, to come whenever the master calls. It actually makes him less of an equal. The prophecy talks about Harry and only Harry. I know you love Snape, and I'm sure he will help Harry on the way to Voldemort's death, but Harry will kill Voldemort.

I believe that Snape is EVIL. The one thing that keeps revisiting me is that Snape has been linked to the death of everyone Harry loves, James, lily, Sirius and DD. So even if Snape had to kill DD (which personally i think he did for his own gains and to save his skin) and was on DD side Harry would NEVER trust him. So regardless of whether he was to help Harry he would have to do something considerably outstanding and un-snapelike. am probably barking up the wrong tree but snape being good just doesn't sit right, he is far too much like wormtail and out to save his own skin.

correct me if am wrong or if this has already been said.

My belief that Snape is not evil is adamant.
He is a very complex and complicated character which is why he is one of my favourites but I think that his intentions have been good though out the whole series.
Here are a few questions I have been thinking about:

Why did he try so hard to teach Harry to prevent his mind from being penetrated by Voldemort?

If he truly was on Voldemort's side he would not have made much of an effort to help Harry. Dumbledore wasn't around to supervise the lessons so he wouldn't know if Snape was teaching Harry properly or not.

Was the Unbreakable Vow really about Dumbledore's death?

In the chapter Spinner's End. Narcissa doesnt actually mention when making the vow with Severus that he has to kill Dumbledore. She asked him to help if Draco failed to carry out his task (lets assume she meant if he died). But Draco had two tasks one was to get the Death Eaters into the castle the other to kill Dumbledore. Severus may have helped Draco to get the Death Eaters into the castle but Draco didn't fail completely to kill Dumbledore. Yes he didnt really have it in him to do it but he didnt actually die did he? So why did Snape act so hastily? Was it all planned?...hmmmm

There is a lot about Snape we do know about , like why and how he joined the Dark Side and if he ever broke that aliance. Correct me if I am wrong but in the chapter Spinners End he said to Narcissa that he couldn't change Voldemort's mind about what Draco had to do and that it had to be all Draco's work. Surly he was aware that by defying Voldemort and helping Draco to kill Dumbledore that it was anger voldemort...so if he truly respected Voldemort, Draco's well being would come second. Bellatrix said if she had sons that she would willingly give them up for Voldemort which shows that she is a true follower but Severus chose to protect Draco when making the Unbreakable vow even if it meant adapting Voldemorts plans which doesnt show that he has 100% respect or faith in Voldemorts plan. I think like everyone else he was aware that Draco would be able to kill Dumbledore. Draco may have been like a son to him but seeing as it was Voldemorts order that only Draco should do it why would Snape sacrifice everything to help Draco? This shows a gentle side to the potions master.

Kudos for that assessment. although i doubt that it's about Snape. But for a second there... I thought that it could be possible.



What were the specifics on when and why he turned as a spy for the Order Beforehand? I don't remember that happening.

We don't have specifics. All we have is Dumbledore's memory of the trial of Boris Karkaroff, and Dumbledore's own words that Snape defected before the fall of Voldemort.



I suppose it's possible that Snape could have been playing double agent, but why? If loyal to Voldemort at that time, before Voldemort's fall, when Voldemort was on the rise and seemingly going to soon run the entire European wizarding world, why would Voldemort and Snape plant him with Dumbledore? There's no logical reason - and neither Snape nor Voldemort could ever be called stupid. Both men are very motivated by logic. Evil, self-absorbed, overconfident, drunk on his own power and/or importance, yes. But stupid, no.

So it stands to reason that, on this at least, Dumbledore is correct and that Snape had defected before Voldemort's fall. Whether he is now a double agent for Dumbledore or a triple agent for Voldemort is what we're debating, however.

At one point he was unquestionably a Death Eater. Then he defected, unquestionably a loyal member of Dumbledore's "original" Army. Now, his loyalties are unclear; is he still loyal to Dumbledore and posing as loyal to Voldemort, or is he loyal to Voldemort but posing as loyal to Dumbledore posing as loyal to Voldemort? (What a "he said/she said he said she said"! )

thats true we dont know............ anyway I dont trust snape he is a git



c4q.gif[/img][/url]

I wonder, if through the usage of Occlumency, if one could block one's self from the Vow. It is said that Snape eyes looked blank, I believe, in the Chapter called Spinner's End when he was performing the Vow. Is this a subtle hint that he was employing the Occlumency and blocking his mind, therefore voiding the Vow?

i serioulsy believe that severus snape is on his own side. it might be the samest side of all, no matter who wins he'll be safe. id lv wins he can continue being on lv's side and if harry wins he will remain on the good side and be safe. he's right in the middle, exept that after dd's murder he may not be so safe on the good side anymore. unless they all know about whatever dd planned and are just really good at faking despair.
~Isabelle

I've been thinking it over, and seeing as we've only got, what? 13-14 days? I've come to the conclusion that I have three opinions.

Snape is Good and on Dumbledore's side.

I thought about this, and realised it somewhat made sense. He may be a mean teacher, but he's never wanted Harry dead (He would do if he were on Voldemort's side) and actualy saved him from dieing in first year when he could have let it all happen. The killing Dumbledore was because of the Unbreakable vow. Well, i believe so. Malfoy couldn't do the job (To kill Dumbledore) so Snape had to kill him, or be killed himself because he broke the vow.

That's how i see it. I believe that he'll come bac and explain, but everyone will still hate him because let's not forget what's just happened-he killed Dumbledore!

Snape is on his own side and is working for nobody but himself.

He didn't want to get mixed in with the fight? He just wanted to be out of the way? He's pretending to be on both sides, so as not to get killed.

Snape is eeeeeeevviiilllllll!

In chapter two of HBP, he told Bella and Narcissa he was Voldemort and gave all the answers to her questions. He made an unbreakable vow to protect and do if he can't, Malfoy's job. He knew what was at stake-so why did he agree to it, if he didn't mind killing off Dumbledore?

I have no idea what to think, but i'm the most confident with the Snape is good theory.

PS. I may have posted here before, i'm not sure. And sorry if i've repeated anything anyone has said.

snape is in nobody's side yet.
he cant decide who to go to because of these:

1. he's just killed his mentor albus dumbledore

2. he's got a life dept. on harry's father which he hasnt paid yet

3. he is LV's most trusted death eater

4. he is branded with the dark mark

5. he has an unbreakable vow to draco's mother

6. he hates harry because of harry's father

7. one part of him admired harry and see's lily in harry for his pure heart

8. he like harry and LV is a half blood

9. he fools LV

10. he needs to protect draco

11. and finally he and draco led the death eaters in the castle.


what do you think you judge but i dont think he's on either side yet his life is full of deception, sadness and anger. his lifes pretty twisted

I think jk has either made a brilliant move in having Snape kill dumbledore or a blunder. Part of what made snape so cool was that he wasn't what he seemend, he was complex, he had a wall in front of him and you never knew what he really was. And it was really fun to try and figure him out.
If he killed Dumbledore for Voldamort, ahh i so misspelled that, then it sort of ruins the hole he isn't what he seemend thing, i mean seriosly the it ruins the character.
But if he killed Dumbledore for Dumbledore then he becomes a cool charecter once more!!
If he killed Dumbledore for Dumbledore he has just bannished himself from Harry and the order. However he has also placed himself in the perfect posision for weakening voldie and his network.
If he killed Dumbledore for voldemort then he has brought the resistence to its knees and has made himself a very important person in voldies army.
I belive it was more prophitable for him to kill Dumbledore for Voldie then for Dumbledore.

Those are some good points there quidditch rocks. Throughout the books, Snape is definitely not what he first appears to be, and it would be good if JKR continued that pattern with this move. However, this would be an ideal time for JKR to change her style with Snape because of the magnitude of this event, but I am hopeful that Snape remains faithful to Dumbledore - and continues his character.

You say that Snape would be more valuable to LV now that he has killed Dumbledore, but I do not see how this is so. If Snape does indeed remain loyal to Albus Dumbledore, he would prove an incredibly valuable asset to Harry (after, of course, he convinces him that he is not what he seems to be and did the murder on Dumbldore's bidding). Snape could provide Harry with insight on the Dark Lord's attacks, location, and other information Harry can use to fight LV. I also have a feeling that Snape may come into play with the Horcruxes, not that he knows about them, but just that he may help save Harry from an injury obtained from one of the Horcruxes, as he did with Dumbledore. Snape would be trusted by LV possibly more than the other DE's, thereby giving Harry an increased amount of inside info against LV.

In what ways do you see Snape being more valuable to LV than to Harry?

Actually, we don't know that for sure; because why would Wormtail be doing at Spinner's End?

Yes, he was branded with the Drak Mark, but it doesn't go off...Mind you, Karkaroff was a Death Eater too, he had the Mark too; he flee and finally he was killed.

The Umbreakable Vow to Narcissa was to help Draco to fullfil his mission if Draco couldn't; as we all know, he fullfilled his promise

Yes, but as you said before, he had a life debt to Harry's father; James is dead, so I guess that if he stil feelsl has that debt it undoubtedly passed to Harry.

I don't see the point in this, could you explain it a little further??

As I said before, the UV was meant to protect Draco while he was trying to fullfil the Dark Lord's wishes.

We couldn't possibly know that; remember he tried to use legilimency on Draco but, Bellatrix tought Occlumency to Draco and Snape couldn't extract any emotion, or thought from Draco's mind.

Phoenix_1 did an excellent job at covering some of the points. However, I just wanted to add on a bit to one in particular.



Actually, Snape had nothing to do with it. Like Phoenix_1, he tried to perform Leglimency on Draco but was blocked. Draco refused to tell Snape his plans because he thought Snape would steal his glory. When the DE's gained entrance into Hogwarts, Snape was asleep in bed. The Order sent for him to come and help, but you know the rest of that story. Once he was involved in the fight, he did what he had to do.

I'm with Luna on this one. I really don't think he's on a side just yet. He's just making the moves as he goes. With that big of a choice to make, especially how hard it is for Snape in particular - given his character, it's going to be an ongoing tug of war between the two paths until the final decision is made - Harry potter or LV.

Well, I actually used to give the theory that Snape was on his own side credence (though I didn't agree with it myself). However, last night my wife and I bought copies of Mugglenet's book, and, despite my general dislike for Mugglenet's website (I like Veritaserum much better, thus explaining why I'm here ), I found a couple interesting things in there I hadn't thought about. The one I liked the best had to do with Snape being on his own side.

The book pointed out that, if Snape was wanting to stay loyal to both sides, he was pretty stupid to make an unbreakable vow to kill Dumbledore. He purposely allowed himself to make that vow, and then went up to the tower and killed Dumbledore himself. If he was trying to stay on both sides, he could have let someone else do it, or not gone up, or simply not made the vow in the first place. Snape clearly chose to be on Voldemort's side (from an outsider's point of view) and no one is going to be fooled by Snape waiting until Voldemort dies and then saying, "Oh, I was on your side all along." Snape is very, very clever, and would not have allowed himself to get in that situation if he was trying to stay in everyone's good graces.

I say that either Snape is evil, as he appears, or he is good, and is doing it either on Dumbledore's orders or behind Dumbledore's back (until the moment up on the tower where Dumbledore realizes that Snape has no choice and asks Snape to kill him). My thoughts on which one?

Well, read my signature.

-Fish

The enemy of my enemy is my friend

Snape is evil, however, would that stop him being on his own side and looking out for himself. He is a Slytherin after all and they do place themselves above everything else. But does Sanpe being evil stop him from helping Harry? I doubt Snape is willing to live under LV's thumb for the rest of his life, which in and of itself could be short lived, if LV were to no longer find him useful. Was the argument Hagrid over hear a prelude to Snape going mavrick on both DD and LV, and showing his true colors, his own ambitions of power and fame?

I agree savingharry that Snape is either good or bad. There is no logic to him being on his own side and in it for himself. If this was the case, he would have run (as Karkarroff did) or gone into hiding and tried to wait out the war. He would not have made an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa to help Draco. Nor would he continue to report to the Order of the Phoenix up until he killed Dumbledore. If Snape was truly in it to survive the war on his own side, he would be helping neither side and try only to make it through this alive.

Now, Snape has never seemed to be a nice guy, but that is just in his character. I belive that somehow Snape will get across to Harry that he is good and committed the murder of Dumbledore for a benefit to Harry. He can get better information from LV now that he murdered the only one LV ever truly feared, which could help Harry tremendously throughout his Horcrux hunt. Severus' knowledge of the Dark Arts may also become beneficial to Harry in destroying the Horcruxes, though I find it hard to see the two working together.

Perhaps, on the night Dumbledore was murdered, Dumbledore instructed Severus to commit the murder to destroy the Horcrux. Dumbledore could have thought the Horcrux would take over him (becuase of his experience with the ring and his 'dead' hand) and by murdering him, the Horcrux would be destroyed. This also explains Dumbledore beggin with Severus because the Horcrux was a fake and the murder was not necessary at this time. Dumbledore would have wanted Severus to do this because of the increased trust LV would have given Severus for doing so, and also keeping the Unbreakable Vow true. This explains his need to see Severus the moment they got back to school from the cave. My thinking is that Severus possesses the knowledge of how to destroy Horcruxes or at least an idea. I know murder to destroy the Horcrux seems far-fetched, but it provides two benefits - Severus' increased trust with LV and a piece of LV's soul destroyed.

Obviously, Severus would not have known that the Horcrux was a fake and not possessing Dumbledore. Therefore, he committed the murder, thinking he had destroyed a Horcrux as well. The attack by the Death Eater's made everything go awry and caused chaos with Dumbledore and Severus' plan to destroy the Horcrux. I think Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was instructed to kill him, but did not know about the vanishing cabinet plan. Malfoy would not even tell Snape about this part of the plan and this created a problem when the Death Eaters arrived, forcing Snape to act as he did in the Astronomy Tower to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow and what he thought was destroying a Horcrux.

I think Snape is completley bad. Evil. Cruel. On LV's side.



If thats true, then how come Snape isn't killed too? LV would know if someone had betrayed him, like Karkaroff, and yet he made no attempt to kill Snape. It might be under the protection of DD, but I'm sure there were times, like for instance, in the summer, where LV would have multiple chances to kill him, and yet he didn't.

I think the only real reason Snape protected Harry was because he made an Unbreakable Vow with DD that he will not harm Harry and that he'll protect him. But now DD's dead and the Vow is off so Snape won't be protecting Harry anymore. You never know, that might be it!

Or that if Snape killed Harry, DD would fire him and he wouldn't be able to spy for LV anymore. PLus, in the end, Snape kept shouting, "don't harm him! He's The Dark Lord's!" or something like that. How would he know that if LV didn't tell him?

Rachel

LV has always wanted Harry for himself...Lucius said the same thing in the Ministry in Order ofhte Phoenix when Bellatrix, I think, wanted to kill him straight away.

If you look back to GoF in the graveyard, LV speaks about the members of the circle and he refers to one spot as one that has left forever whom LV intends to kill. I have read other posts that have a high amount of evidence to suggest this spot refers to Snape. LV intended to have Snape killed until Snape returned later that night on Dumbledore's orders. Snape looks like he does not want to go back to Voldemort in GoF (look at the part in the hospital wing where Dumbledore tells him he must return to LV - Snape looks pale and his eyes glisten...something like that). Snape had to have been able to block LV from seeing his thoughts using Occlumency or he would have been murdered on the spot. After Snape returns and gives his story, LV then trusts him and would provide him with information about his doings and such. Snape was able to use his position at Hogwarts in favor of trust for the Dark Lord - not being able to murder Harry under DD's watch, not returning to LV because he though him destroyed, etc. - all of which seem very vague and hastily used excuses, a token to me that Snape came up with these very quickly and used his Occlumency skills to block LV from his real thoughts and excuses. Snape seems very valuable to LV because he is in the Order and close to Dumbledore. LV wants to know what his enemies are up to and is given the potential to know this through Snape.

Snape is a very complex character and we only have a week and a half now to find out what JKR decides his true allegiance to be. Snape probably, similar to Regulus, became afraid of the lengths LV would go to gain power and domination. Karkaroff fled and did not return, hence he was murdered. Since Snape returned to LV, he was spared his life and given a second chance.

Dumbledore would never make an Unbreakable Vow. I believe we would have learned about that by now if it had occurred and I'm pretty sure Snape would have died if he killed the one he made the Unbreakable Vow with because he would have then broken the vow. Is it not possible that Snape was shouting "don't harm him! He's The Dark Lord's!" to keep Harry safe?

what if the unbreakable vow was with dumbledore that he wouldn't betray the order of the phoenix. That would be a very vauge vow, with leway for Snape to be able to do various things given the nessesity. However, it would ensure that Snape wouldn't betray the order outright, whatever that meant in Snape's mind. We don't know how the vow works, but I would guess it would be in the mind of the asker (dumbledore) or the person making the vow (snape). Either way, if Dumbledore thought it nessisary that he should die, then it wouldn't be betraying the order in either of their minds for Snape to do it. Mind you, I don't know that I like the theory, but it is certainly a possibility.

-Fish

I'm not sure Dumbledore would have anyone enter an Unbreakable vow... because the person who breaks the vow dies and I don't think Dumbledore thinks that death is ever an option (except for sacrificing himself, I guess).

I don't think that Dumbledore took part or either made anyone participate in an Umbreakable Vow, I think he is/was extraordinary wizard, who did not need to turn into the Dark Arts to get whatever he wanted.

Wow, Occlumency? I never even thought about that until someone else said it. That's true! Snape's eyes did look blank. I bet you he was using occlumency, it makes so much sense now. Oh well. We'll find out in 9 days!:D

I think that it is possible Snape mae an Unbreakable vow, which is why Dumbledore trusted him, even though nobody else did.

I am a firm believer in the Snape is innocent theory. I think that maybe Dumbledore would have died anyway, because of his hand, so if Snape killed him, it wouldn't be a big deal. It is also possible that Dumbledore isn't dead, and that Snape only said Avada Kedavra, but he was thinking Expelliarmous. There is a lot of emphasis placed on non verbal spells in this book, and the way Dumbledore seemed to be blasted out of the window is similar to the effects of Expelliarmous. If you want a more in-depth explanation of this theory, there is a link here At the top, click on Dumbledore is not Dead and you can read the entire thing. It's really interesting, it makes perfect sense. Anyway, there's my two cents!

Do we know that an unbreakable vow is a dark spell? I mean, I guess it is binding to the point of death. However, Fred and George tried to make Ron make one, and, say what you will about Fred and George's tendency to step a toe or two over the line, I don't think they'd ever step over it entirely into dark arts territory, espeically just for a laugh. Plus, it was when Ron was a kid, so they would have been kids. Young enough, at least, that their potential to perform a deeply dark spell seems unlikely to me. I say this because we tend to grow more jaded as we age into adolesence and adulthood.

Anyway, I guess it may be a dark spell, but I don't know that it is. And thus, I don't know that we can say that Dumbledore wouldn't be part of it.

Question: who would be the binder?

Perhaps Dumbledore was the binder of a vow between snape and james or something like that. Hmm... interesting. That seems unlikely to me.

I would say that would be the one thing that would put a kink in it...

Oh, wait! idea:

Aberforth!

Perhaps Aberforth is the one that was the binder (both because he is albus's brother and because he was there the night snape heard the prophesy), and thus it the one living person would know about it. hmmm... I like that....

I agree with you, deatheater13, that Snape is indeed good. But am I incorrect in saying that the Unbreakable Vow is a form of Dark Magic? I know for a fact that Dumbledore would never resort to or support the use of Dark Magic, especially not to secure a pact so essential as this one. In Philosopher's Stone Dumbledore tells McGonagall LV has powers he will never have and McGonagall responds, "Only becuase you are too...well...noble to use them" or something along these lines. McGonagall is referring to Dark Magic here and confirms Albus will not resort to using any form of Dark Magic.

An Unbreakable Vow can be considered Dark Magic because it kills one of the people if the Vow is broken - undeniably something a good wizard would not want. I do not think Dumbledore would use something like this to seal a pact - he believes in second chances and that is reason enough for him to be giving Snape another chance. And savingharry - it is entirely possible that Fred & George could not have performed that spell at that age and had merely heard about it, thus wanting to do it judging by their curious nature. I do not think a kid could perform an Unbreakable Vow or would know its exact origin as Dark or not.

As for using Expelliarmus instead of AK - Expelliarmus casts a red (I think) jet of light and AK casts green in color. Even if a wizard is able to cast a different spell by thinking something opposed to what they say aloud, the color issued from the wand would not lie about the true identity of the spell cast - and it was green. I do not see this as possible.

Dumbledore trusted Snape to the end, and for this reason, I am in belief that Snape must have shown Dumbledore some quality that we do not yet know of to truly justify this statement. Dumbledore is no fool and cannot be hoodwinked easily, therefore I do not believe he would have allowed someone such as Snape into his Order of the Phoenix without an extraordinary amount of evidence pointing towards him being truly good and not evil.

Brungardt I like your way of thinking. However I remember that Fred and George almost made Ron make an Unbreakable vow when he was younger like savingharry pointed out.How could two inexperienced young wizards know how to perform such dark magic? I do believe that an unbreakable vow is not necessarily Dark Magic however it can be used for dark purposes.

deatheater13 I also agree with the fact that Dumbledore would have died anyway. I am still uncertain as to whether Dumbledore's death was part of his plan or Snape was carrying out Voldemort's plan but I believe that Snape's initial intentions were good. I have two theories going at the moment if the case is that Dumbledore's death wasn't planed for the good of Harry.

1) Snape was initially good but snapped and turned on Dumbledore at the last minute. It seems like a weak theory but hey.....

2)He was under the imperius curse( well my friend suggested that one to me) but it is something to consider.

I'm still re-reading the last 2 books to see if there is anything I have missed. Some people would call me sad but I say at least I have a hobby

Ok, well I read the title "How do we know Snape isn't faking on Narcissa?" and my immediate thought of an answer takes place in the form of another question: How do we know Snape isn't faking to everyone?

This just leads to that whole other topic of which side is Snape on, where do his loyalties lie, etc. As for an answer, I do not know, but give me 9 days and I shall tell you.

Actually, I though of the Unbreakable Vow being part of the Dark Atrs because of the same reason that Burngardt said...if your promise is not fulfilled, you die.

I don’t think that Dumbledore would have died because of the withered hand, but for the potion he drank in the cave...
And JKR made it very clear: Dumbledore is indeed dead.
In an interview she said “The wise old wizard always dies”

HP number one Fan, I’ve read about Severus being under the Imperius Curse when killing Dumbledore before; I wouldn’t discard it, but I think that it was all part of Dumbledore’s plan...I’m finishing rereading HBP and I came acorss with the fact that, in various times, Dumbledore gives hints that he doesn’t know whether he is going to be able to tell everything he deduced to Harry. Here’s one of those times:
When Harry goes to Dumbledore’s office-after being asked to recollect Slughorn’s memory and he didn’t – after seeing Hockey’s (the house-elf) memory; they were talking about the objects that Tom Riddle would have stolen (the locket and the cup) Dubledore says:
“ ‘I think he still felt a great pull towards the school and that he could not resist an object so steeped in Hogwarts’ history. There were other reasons, I think...I hope to be able to demonstrate them to you, in due course.’ ”
So that gave me the idea that Dumbledore knew that he would die...

I agree Phoenix_1. And I think the lessons which he was giving Harry were in a way prepareing him for the what was to come. When Dumbledore is gone Harry will be on his own and so by having the lessons Dumbledore is trying to pass on all he found out about Voldemort as he knows Harry is now emotionally capable of dealing with the information Dumbledore had been finding out. It's suspicious how after every year Dumbledore told Harry a little more about Voldemort and his plans.

PS- That Voldemort couldn't harm Harry because of love
CoS- That Voldemort had passed on some of his powers to Harry
PoA- Well Voldemort isn't in it but we learn he will reunite with wormtail
GoF- Voldemort and his wand had a connection( know there was more.... )
OoP- Dumbledore tells him about the Prophecy
HBP- Dumbledore tells him about the horcrux's and everything else he know about Voldemort's past.

I think all this time Dumbledore had been preparing him for the big battle. Now that Dumbledore was injured (his hand) and his reactions were slower he probably thought he was of no use to Harry anymore and Harry was mature enough to tackle things on his own. I can however justify why Dumbledore would just die because of that though and leave behind Hogwarts when he "knew" that Draco was now a Death Eater and trying to open the school to more.......but like you said Phoenix _1 there are a lot of hits from Dumbledore indicating that he wont be around for much longer. Maybe it was his plan to die...or he knew that someone was going to finish him off.

i just found this VERY LOOOONG essay written by Orson Scott Card, author of MANY books, including the famous Ender's Game, and series

i guess he helped right a book with 2 other people, about whether Snape is a friend or foe of Harry, im not sure yet about him myself, im in between i guess

heres the link if any of you want to read it:

Download Snape essay.pdf

I think that Snape is as loyal to Dumbledore as Harry is.

I do not think that Snape would have been able to pull all the doubt from Voldemort's mind if he had not killed Dumbledore. I think there is more than one reason that Dumbledore had to be killed and it had to be Snape. First of all, there is Draco Malfoy who very well may come to the good side. Do I honestly believe that? Yes. I think Harry would trust Malfoy after what was displayed in the tower the night Dumbledore died. I am under the belief that there is a reason why Harry witnessed everything that happened that night. There is another thing that comes to light; Dumbledore was the closest that Harry had to a father figure really. I think Harry needs that extra emotion to push him to fight Voldemort and to kill him. Like Bellatrix said in HBP to do an unforgivable curse you must truly mean it. It is essentially a part of the "Hero's Journey"; Harry has a mentor, his mentor dies...He conquers his evils in return. Plus, I believe that even if Dumbledore said that the potion was not poison, it very well could have been. If Harry had known otherwise, he would not have allowed Dumbledore to do so and Harry needed that horcrux. Everything was planned. And the fight between Dumbledore and Snape..Well, I don't think that Snape actually really wanted to kill Dumbledore. I think he might have rather died himself than kill Dumbledore. I could never see Dumbledore arguing over something else really.

I believe that Snape was an amazing Legilimens, better than Voldemort, but not better than Dumbledore. I think Snape's allegiance is going to be a key element for Harry to have when he goes against Voldemort. I think Snape is a far greater wizard than he lets on..Harry will need him to beat Voldemort.

It could be devastating for the Order if Snape was on the other side. I just for some reason can not imagine it otherwise. Although, as a writer....it is a perfect way to flip the scripts and cause major drama and devastation. Which is something that you want, something gritty, shocking..

As far as Dumbledore invoking an Unbreakable Vow, that is highly unlikely. Dumbledore is the type of person who likes to give people chances, he wants to give them the opportunity to say yes/no. Dumbledore in my opinion would have never forced nor coherced Snape into an Unbreakable Vow. It just simply isn't his way, thats why I think there was the whole argument. Snape might not have wanted to do it and Dumbledore had to argue with him otherwise.

Plus....Harry witnessing Snape killing Dumbledore is VERY significant. Remember when Harry felt extreme pleasure or pain when Voldemort did? I think that Voldemort had to have felt Harry's extreme pain when Dumbledore died. Who better to convince than Harry that Snape was on the bad side? After all, with his poor job at occulmency and how open his mind became at that moment. I wouldn't doubt that Voldemort didn't catch a glimpse or atleast felt a twinge of what happened.

I think hes on his own side.I dont know why,but i think he is.Hate to admit it,but hes a good wizard,and can hide his emotions very well.Maybe because hes got no emotions....lol.A week and a bit to find out...argh!

Spork2 those were absolutely great points you put forth there - thanks for the support on the Unbreakable Vow!

Dumbledore's death was, unfortunately, necessary as is the death of a mentor in any hero story - othewise there is no individual hero. I liked your connection with Harry's emotions to defeat LV. I believe Harry's emotions, as you said, will play an important part in the last book and defeat of LV. Without such a strong desire to end LV's reign of terror and chaos he is causing the Wizarding World, Harry would find it much more difficult to attempt his task. The deaths he has experienced, and that will come, drive him to completing his task with his totally devoted attention as opposed to it looming over him as something he knows he has to do but does not want to out of fear and the seemingly impassible barrier it presents. Death of those close to Harry (Sirius, Dumbledore, etc.) force Harry to focus solely on defeating LV and his Horcruxes so he can rid the world of the terrible hazards LV presents.

Snape will indeed be needed to help defeat LV. His skill in potions will help Harry if he is injured or needs something special and difficult to make. Snape may also have some knowledge pertaining to the extraction of a piece of soul from a Horcrux, or some education in helping Harry against objects containing Dark Magic (protections around the Horcruxes, barriers set up by LV, etc.). In this way, Severus could be beneficial to Harry, more so than to LV. Snape will no longer recieve informatino from the Order after his actions against Dumbledore, and I just cannot see Harry being able to tackle Horcruxes, the epitamy of Dark Magic, without assistance from someone with an even slightly increased knowledge.

Great points on the benefits of Harry witnessing Dumbledore's death as well Spork2. I have never thought about LV feeling Harry's emotions at that time. His emotions were definitely as high as they had ever been at witnessing the death of the last mentor and father figure he had.

Those are some good points about Snape helping Harry, but I doubt that Harry will ever trust or want help from Snape ever again. I mean, Harry watched him kill Dumbledore. He hates Snape, wants Snape dead. He's not just going to forgive Snape and trust him. If Snape went to Harry and told him the truth, about how he was really loyal to Dumbledore, Harry wouldn't believe him. He has always hated Snape, and now he hates him even more. I really can't see it happening. It is a really good idea, though, and I think it does make sense.

Oh! What if Snape somehow proves to Harry he is, indeed, still loyal to the Order and Dumbledore? I don't know how, but I suppose that is possible.

Voldemort feeling Harry's emotions, that is a brilliant idea! It makes perfect sense.

I don't think that an Unbreakable Vow is nessicarily Dark Magic. It can be used as such, but in Dumbledore's case I'm sure it isn't. Maybe the Vow wasn't that he wouldn't betray the Order or anything, but that he'd watch over Harry, because I'm sure that's something Snape wouldn't normally make an effort to do. He has saved Harry's life numerous times, and even tried to teach him Occlumency. Maybe the requirements were very vague, so Snape was allowed a little leeway with his actions.

I think that Dumbledore was planning this with Snape. Or he can be an anti hero.

Well, if Snape does try to come back to Harry, then there is one way to prove that he was truly loyal to Dumbledore. Fawkes...