I have to recognise that it is a very well thought theory
I agree with you- and I've said this many many times before- about the fact that there is more to Severus Snape than we all think; but I don't think that he has such thing as a "3rd party" going on.
What benefit would he get from that??
And, he is not good nor evil, right....but we all have a bigger porcentage either in the "good" side or the "evil" side...I haven't met anyone yet that 100% neutral, that you cannot say that he/she is good or evil...get what I mean?? I understood completely the part when you said that it came a time when Snape had to weigh the alternatives in his mind...But, to me, that whole neutral "3rd party" thing doesn't make sense.

Well, the benefit is obvious -- a world he can control. I don't mean Snape's going to turn into the cliche'd "SUPREME WORLD DOMINATION" villain, but he may have deceived himself into the thinking of "Power = Happiness". I believe if what he was trying to do went through, he would still find himself unhappy.

Also, I'm not saying SNAPE is 100% neutral to both good and evil -- I'm saying his goals and organization are not affiliated with either.

This is all just some crazy theory I came up with while mowing the lawn today anyway. Thanks for receiving it so well -- I don't mean in terms of 100% agreement, but in maturity, acknowledgment of the thought put into it, and legitimate debate as opposed to fighting.

Let's just say I'm a video gamer, and those forums... well, I'm used to worse. Let's leave it at that.

Pheonix_1, I think you have the right idea. There is probably more to Snape than we all know. I've never seen anyone 100% neutral either. Maybe Snape is trying to see who will win (LV or DD) first. He might choose the side that looks like it's going to win. MacLotr, I think Snape's options were like that also at the end of the sixth book. Although we'll have to wait for the seventh to know for sure, I am pretty sure he's on the good side.

This really is a very hard question that Rowling has put before us... I've heard so many theories, and I think that sticking to any single one will not get you close to the truth. Rowling knows that we're sitting here predicting, and she'll have something completely different up her sleeve.

Anyway, back to my opinions. I can't see Snape as being on either side, actually. I don't buy the whole "Snape is the real villain" schpeil, but I think that that is pretty close. Him being a villain would go against everything this book is about, but him being on Dumbledore's side the whole time would be the same twist we've seen in nearly every book.

I think that Snape probably wants Voldemort dead, but thought that the only way to do it was to kill Dumbledore. He never really intended on being totally loyal to Dumbledore, but he most likely regrets killing the man, who was one of the only people to show him true kindness.

Snape will have to be a very complex character, hero or villain. He will most likely stay loathsome of Harry, but in order to eliminate Voldemort, the two enemies will have to find common ground. This will not be an enemies-become-friends-and-everybody's-happy situation, but I think that the two will have to work together. Snape doesn't want to rule the world or anything, but simply destroy Voldemort, most likely for a reason Rowling has yet to show us.

Of course, my theory is probably wrong, since as I said before, Rowling knows very well how to create a plot that no one could have expected.

i cant get over snape killing dumbledore... i know if he didnt he would have died because of the unbreakable vow... but he didnt have to make it..
In my opinion snape is with the Death Eaters..

Well most people on here do not think he did it simply to uphold the vow. Most of us on this side of the argument he did it on DD's orders. There is overwhelming evidence pointing to it. The greatest of which probably being Fawkes' absence. Fawkes could have easily saved him if DD wanted to be saved.

Now I just read that scene again to help me prove a point I had on another thread and I have a couple of interesting points to add to this debate. First, AFTER Snape AKs DD, Harry tries to scream but can't because of the spell DD put on him. When a wizard dies his spells should be lifted. Why was it delayed? I may be looking too much into this and it may just simply be a delayed reaction but most magic is not delayed reactions so I don't see why DD's spell would not be lifted as soon as Snape AKs him. I am not a supporter of the DD is alive theory but it does give evidence to the group that thinks Snape said AK while thinking another spell that he actually performed, then DD may not have died until he hit the ground, causing the delay in the lifting of the spell on Harry.

The other main thing I wanted to point out was when Snape comes in he does not say a single word until he performs the AK. Those are his first two words. He just walks up to DD with that look of hatred and revulsion (in my opinion this is Snape doing everything he can to muster up every ounce of hate in his body just so he can manage to perform the curse) pushes Malfoy out of the way and does it. Every other DE that comes in jeers DD first and takes advantage of their once in a lifetime opportunity to really torment him. It also seems weird that Amycus keeps stopping the other DEs from doing the job for Malfoy but just lets Snape go and do it without saying a word. The whole scene is just so sketchy throughout.

Well, he still made the vow in the first place. He let on that he knew. He listened to narcissa, told her he'd help, and made the vow. He could have refused to help, saying that his loyalty was to the dark lord, not to her. He could have simply refused to listen to her plea at all. either one wouldn't make him seem not on their side. He could have avoided the vow altogether one way or another. He could have not gone to fight the death eaters. He could have let someone else kill Dumbledore, and later said he didn't have a choice, that he couldn't stop it. That's quite a different thing than actually killing dumbledore himself.

The fact is that Snape, in the beginining of the book, agreed to help Draco kill dumbledore and to kill him himself if he didn't succeed. Why do that if he's trying to stay on both sides?

Now, perhaps he didn't actually know about the plan, but just lied to try to find out information. However, then why would he agree to do something when he didn't even know what he was agreeing to do if he was trying to play both sides?

-fish

I think Snape and DD had already discussed his death before Snape talked to narcissa. It says that the battle with LV in the DOM left DD shaken and that might have been when he realized it wouldn't be long before LV succeeded in killing him anyway so if he was going to die soon no matter what he might as well do it on his terms and let Snape use his murder to get closer to LV and help out Harry. If LV were to tell any DE about his horcruxes (I feel that he hasn't yet like DD thought) it would probably be the one that murdered DD for him.

I agree. there are many reasons why snape would have made the vow, killed dumbledore, etc., if snape was good. It's just the "snape is on his own side" theories that have problems explaining Snape's actions.

I personally am a "snape is good" man (as evidenced by my signature). Personally, I like the idea that Snape didn't know what he was agreeing to when he made the vow. He agreed to help Draco complete the task, but he didn't want to have to agree to complete it himself (note the twing in the hand). It was only later that Snape realized that he was going to kill Dumbledore. He didn't want to do it, but Dumbledore told him that he had to, that he'd already agreed to do it. Snape said that Dumbledore was taking to much for granted, assuming that Snape would be willing to do that. Dumbledore told him he didn't have a choice. He was "pretty firm with him." So Snape did it (with a little prodding from dumbledore).

-Fish

I think the emphasis on Snape's background, being tormented by Sirius and James Potter plays heavily into his psychology. Everyone who's ever been the tormented when they are young wants, whether they admit it or not to be the unique, powerful person that their childhood robbed from them at the hands of the tormenter. I'm part of the "Snape is Good" crowd. But I think part of his motivation is his own vindication from childhood tormenting. He's a wonderful character. I'm looking forward to however Rowling chooses to portray him in the last book. Personally I think he'll help Harry in the end, out of devotion to his love for Lily, and possibly be killed in the final battle.

Deffinately. And about the whole being abused as a child can go either way, they will want to seek revenge or they will rise above it. Harry did the latter. As for Snape I think that he will always resent the marauders for what they did to him but he has a good streek deep down which will be revealed in the last book. I can feel it!

aberforth_rocks_my_socks

You have a good point here, I haven’t thought of it until now...it’s a very curious fact...The only thing I can think of is that you might be right on thinking that Snape thought of another spell and said Avada Kedavra instead...that would explain why Dumbledore’s body didn’t just hit the ground.

I think that the fact that Draco wasn’t able to kill Dumbledore summed up to the way he treated Snape through the year would contribute to that expression of revulsion and hatred on his face.
The Infamous Fish

I think that Snape didn’t know exactly what Draco was supposed to do; then one day I was reading something on the net that cleared my thoughts...there it was said that he might have used Legilimency on Narcissa...If you bear with me a litlle, I’ll explain the point a little further...
According to Snape in OotP, “ ‘Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency’ ”
And you have to “‘Master yourself … Control your anger, discipline your mind’ ” in orther to block it, right??
But, due to Harry’s failure, he said:
“ ‘Clear your mind, Potter,’ said Snape’s cold voice, ‘Let go of all emotion.’”
In HBP, when Narcissa and Bellatrix go to Spinner’s End, we see that Bellatrix doesn’t take her gaze from Snape while she was moving to stand behind her sister.
Then, Snape hands them wine; but Bellatrix “continued to glower at Snape”
The situation continues in a similar way, until Bella tells Severus that she doesn’t trust him, and her sister starts sobbing.
Snape – in a most typical fashion of his- starts belittling Bellatrix and rubs in the fact that she blew it at the Ministry. The emotional responses that she has – because of what her sister was going to do- makes her vunlerable to having her mind penetrated.
This is an example of that:
" ‘My information has been conveyed directly to the Dark Lord," said Snape, "If he chooses not to share it with you-- ’
‘He shares everything with me,” said Bellatrix, firing up at once, "He calls me his most loyal, his most faithful--’
‘Does he," said Snape, his voice delicately inflected to suggest his disbelief, "Does he still, after the fiasco at the Ministry?’
‘That was not my fault," said Bellatrix flushing, "The Dark Lord has in the past entrusted me with his most precious ...’ ”
Bearing in mind that at the door Narcissa tells Snape that it was urgent, we can infer that Snape got a strong hint that Voldemort was involved...After one of Wormtail’s interruptions Narcissa said:
“ ‘Severus, I know I ought not to be here. I have been told to say nothing to anyone, but …’ ”
After a while, after Snape defends his actions to Bellatrix, we read this:
“...Taking advantage of her silence, Snape turned to her sister, ‘Now, you came to ask me for help, Narcissa?’ Narcissa looked up at him, her face eloquent with despair.
‘Yes, Severus, I … I think you are the only one who can help me. I have nowhere else to turn. Lucius is in jail and,’ she closed her eyes and two large tears seeped from beneath her eyelids, ‘The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it,’ Narcissa continued, her eyes still closed, ‘He wishes none to know of the plan. It is very secret, but …’
‘If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,’ said Snape at once, ‘The Dark Lord’s word is law.’
Narcissa gasped as though he had doused her with cold water. Bellatrix looked satisfied for the first time since she had entered the house. ‘There!’ she said triumphantly to her sister, ‘Even Snape says so. You were told not to talk. So, hold your silence.’
But, Snape had gotten to his feet and strode to the small window, peered through the curtains at the deserted street, then closed them again with a jerk. He turned around to face Narcissa frowning.
‘It so happens that I know of the plan,’ he said in a low voice, ‘I am one of the few the Dark Lord has told. Nevertheless, had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been guilty of great treachery to the Dark Lord.’
‘I thought you must know about it,’ said Narcissa breathing more freely, ‘He trusts you so, Severus.’
‘You know about the plan?’ said Bellatrix, her fleeting expression of satisfaction replaced by a look of outrage, ‘You know?’
‘Certainly,’ said Snape, ‘But, what help do you require, Narcissa? If you are imagining that I can persuade the Dark Lord to change his mind, I’m afraid there is no hope, none at all.’
‘Severus,’ she whispered, tears sliding down her pale cheeks, ‘My only son’
‘Draco should be proud,’ said Bellatrix indifferently, ‘The Dark Lord is granting him a great honor, and I will say this for Draco, he isn’t shrinking away from his duty. He seems glad of a chance to prove himself, excited at the prospect.’
Notice that Snape brings up his knowledge of the plan only after Narcissa refers to it as a plan. Narcissa is the one who mentions her son first and Bella confirms that Voldemort has ordered Draco to do something.
Also, Snape’s harsh criticism of Narcissa adds to her emotional distress; and his trip to the window gives him time to think of the whole thing properly
Finally I wanted to stess the fact that though Narcissa’s eyes are closed during Snape’s conversation with her sister, she looks directly at him well before making the Unbreakable Vow, giving him opportunity to read the identity of Voldemort’s target in her mind.

Well, it is highly probable that Dumbledore had suspicions about the whole thing – that he might’ve shared them with Severus--. After all, Voldemort tried to kill Dumbledore himself at the Ministry. Besides, if Snape returned to be a spy on Voldemort, of course he would be forced to lie in order to get information.
After all this being said, I’d like to know what do you think about it...I know its a pretty long post but I hope I made my point clear

Are you sure there is such thing as a delay in the killing curse? I've never heard of it, nor has it been mentioned in the series.
I believe Snape is on his own side, but I think he doesn't really know exactly what he wants. I just think he's mildly confused.

DD is dead. Jk said that herself. So there is no way Snape could've thought of another curse and said AK instead. Sorry.

And Phoenix_1, I highly doubt Snape would lie right in front of a DE. She could easily go to LV and ask him herself. Snape would be in great danger by lying in front of a DE. So I think he was telling the truth.

Also, LV is an excellent Occulmens also. He could easily go into Snape's mind when Snape isn't blocking himself.

I don't trust that greasy haired dude.

~Rachel

Voldermort is very skilled at legilimens, that is true, but we already know that Snape is a "very accomplished occlumen" according to Remus Lupin. In addition, we know that Snape has hidden a great deal from Voldemort in the past, both prior to Harry coming to Hogwarts, and then once again starting at the end of GoF.

If you think that he was sharing everything with Voldmort, then you would have to mean that he was lying to Dumbledore, and there is nother wizard well equipped at legilimens.

I think we have to accept that Snape is a fantastic wizard, and that a great occlumens, can, for the most part ward off a great legilimens. I think a direct assault on Snape would be the only thing that would allow either of these two wizards directly into this true thoughts.

I am really unsure about this, as I have been ever since book 1. HBP really complicates things. At a first glance, it seems that Snape is working for Voldemort. Then you look again, and it appears that he is working for Dumbledore. You look again, and it looks as though he is working for both at the same time! So, I have come to the conclusion that Snaape lied to the DH and Voldemort, made the Unbreakable Vow, but then asked Dumbledore to remove it and told him that he didn't want to do it anymore, Dumbledore refused him, told Snape that he is to seemingly stop working for the Order and him when the time comes; Dumbledore then asked Snape to do what he promised he would do, which Snape did. The verdict: Snape is very confused, and doesn't really know what side he wants to be on. He is torn between what he wants to do, and what he needs to do in order to survive. His survival depends on wether he has Voldemort's trust or not. So, I have deducted that he is on his own side. Whichever side is winning at the moment, that is the side he is on. But at the same time, he doesn't want to see Harry dead. I am very confused. *sigh*

Voldemort wants him.
The Order won't take him.
Harry needs him.

I can describe Snape in one word: enigmatic.

~Prod

We were not trying to argue that DD is alive. My closely clearly said that he DIED when he hit the ground. We are just questioning whether or not Snape used the AK curse seeing as all the signs seem to point away from him using the AK curse. I don't understand why you said "there is no way Snape could've thought of another curse and said AK instead." I've only heard JKR say that DD is dead. I have never heard her say that Snape performed the AK curse on him for sure. If you have the interview that says that please show it to me so I can throw this theory away. Wizards can die without being hit by the AK curse. Just like any other human being they will die when they hit the ground falling from a castle tower. Just because they are magic does not mean that hitting the ground after falling a hundred(s) feet won't kill them.

I think it has also been made pretty clear in the books that a highly accomplished occlumens always trumps a highly accomplished legilimens. That seems to fit JKR's style much better as well because it kind of is a the strongest good always beats the strongest bad type of thing if that makes sense. Like no matter how great a legilimens someone is a strong occlumens can always keep his mind protected which seems like it would be much more in line with JKR style than having the really strong legilimens being able to type into any mind they want.

I do really like your second point though. It seems like it would be a terrible risk for him to lie there. If narcissa went and asked LV if he really told Snape the plan, Snape could be in big trouble. He was probably either telling the truth or he was banking that Narcissa wouldn't tell LV knowing that if she did she would be punished because LV would know that she spoke to someone else about the plan (Snape) after LV had told her to tell nobody.

I think Snape is good. Because of the unbreakable vow he took with Mrs.Malfoy he had to kill Dumbledore to save Draco and save himself. Maybe Dumbledore knew this and knew that Snape was important to the OotP sucess with Voldemort so they needed him more. Maybe Dumbledore basically sacrificed himself to save Snape so he can stay in the Order and with Snapes information defeat the Dark Lord. So Snape just did what he was told... protected Draco, killed Dumbledore and keep both sides happy with him.

Snape is Dumbledores man and he is slightly in for it for himself and what he can gain from both sides.

I think that the end of HBP makes it pretty clear that the OOTP side is clearly not happy with Snape. He definately does not have their trust anymore so you can't really say that he is still playing both sides.

I agree with you, actually. I don't think Snape had any idea of the plan beforehand. The more I reread that section, the more that seems likely.

However, if Snape didn't know about the plan, as we are postulating, then the question I asked remains:



That's not a very smart move if that is your motive. You would want to wait and learn more. There's other ways of finding out that information and still appearing on Voldemort's side without agreeing to help Bellatrix.

If your supreme motive is to get close enough to Voldemort to twart his plans, then this is a good move. Otherwise, it is not. If Snape really was as trusted as he says, then he would already know. The fact that he doesn't know means that Voldemort doesn't trust him, even after using legilmency against him. If this is true, then Snape probobly had something to hide and voldemort can tell, though has no proof. It would be one of those gut things, and since Snape could be so useful to him, Voldemort keeps him around, but sends Wormtail along to "help" (that is, to watch) him. Remember what Snape said:

"he's taken to listening at doors. I don't know what he means by it."

I think Voldemort didn't quite trust Snape, and didn't tell him about the plans. Snape, by killing Voldemort, ensured he would be seen as loyal to Voldemort. Putting him in a prime place to aid in his downfall.

That's what I think, anyway.

-Fish

I agree, but I haven't decided for sure whose side I think Snapes on. If I had to choose I would say he's good. I picked up the sticker that said "Snape is Good" and the one that said "Snape is Evil" at Waldenbooks because I couldn't decide.

I think Snape is with Dumbledore. There's no point of being so long with Dumbledore without harming him, if Snape is really for Voldemort. On the other hand, Snape had to be trusted by Voldemort, so he might sacrifice some of OOP members, under Dumbledore's instruction.

I completely agree with you. It seems to me that Voldemort doesn't fully trust Snape; otherwise what would Wormtail be doing at Spinner's End??
After all-please,correct me if I'm wrong- Snape never said he was the one Voldemort trusted the most

Ruddy good point! I never thought about it like that. Wormtail was probably spying on Severus. As we know Wormtail is so weak and will do anything for Voldemort because he fears him, if Voldemort said "jump off a cliff Wormtail" he would do it. If he said "Go and spy on Severus but pretend that you are his helper Wormtail" then he would do it. It's all very fishy isnt it? Especially when Severus was talking to the sisters (Bella and Cissy) about Draco's assignment and why he hadnt killed Harry Wormtail was listening at the wall wasnt he? Bellatrix said that Voldemort called her his most loyal and faithful but whether she is bluffing remains to be seen.

Hmmmmmmmmm

See Snape IS good HAHA! And I am believing it more and more each day!

Everyone is picking really good points on if Snape is good or bad. I still think he is good and other people are reinforcing the idea in my mind. He is misunderstood and I think there will be more to him in the end than mets the eye.

Before the next book comes out, I just want to say that I agree with those who think he is still good. I have believed that it was all a plan, at least a plan during book 6 and not necessarily a giant plan of Harry's life (though Dumbledore does say this in the 5th book after Sirius dies).

I never thought of it in that way. Wormtail probally is spying on Snape You-Know-Who wouldn't just send Snape one of his followers just because he felt like it. He knows that he can trust Wormtail as we have seen how much he has help the Dark Lord rise again. The main question here is what? What is it that Wormtail is spying on Snape for? Does he have something? Or is he just watching to see where Snape's true loyalties lie?

Actually your right if you look back into some of my earlier replies you'll understand but it is Barty Crouch Jr who LV holds as his most loyal servant and he believes Snape to have left him forever

I see that many people voted that Snape is on DD's side. I really do hope that's the case in DH but I somehow think he's only on DD"s side because of personal gain.

But, again, I would absolutely love it for Snape to be good in the end.

It shall be a bitter-sweet moment when we all know what happens in the end.

Harry shall live forever in our hearts

Well i believe that Snape is in fact on Dumbledores side, i think that in the final book we should be able to find out truly why dumbledore trusts him, because i feel there is more there than we know! But then there would be a great twist if infact Snape truly is on Voldemorts side!!! hmmm..... i still hope he is good!
Piglet

If Snape is not on Dumbledore's side, Voldemort should have eliminated the Order sooner. Why would Voldemort delay it? Comparing Voldemort and Dumbledore, Snape would likely fare better with Dumbledore as his leader than Voldemort.

One thing that's certain in JKRs universe is that nothing is certain except perhaps for the fact that the most intriguing queries can be answered by most bizarre or radical explanations not considered by anyone before. Like Sirren pointed out in one of the other threads on Snape quite sometime ago, "Five books came and went without a trace of horcruxes". Now they are the most important aspect of the series, the key to many questions. Who knows what seventh book has in store for us. The question of Snapes' loyalties have been discussed often. It's like you see what you want to see. I have never seen Snape in good light mainly because of the way he' treated Harry irrespective of his true loyalties or intentions and naturally have always believed him to be selfish enough to be playing both sides. All explanations that suggest that Snape is good all along, can easily be countered by those seeking to establish that it was all an act and he's either on Tom's side or on his own. What's stopping Snape from being a traitor all along?

Ok, I've always thought Snape was bad! I mean, there is no way that he could kill dumbledore and be good. But now, I have been re-reading the series in preperation for DH and I am no longer sure of his position. Like, mayfair said, you could make a case for either side given snape's behavior.
I don't want him to be good because when it comes right down to it, he killed dumbledore! But then agian, I have heard the argument that he did so because he made a plan with dumbledore. But I don't think that he could have planned to leave harry so clueless so then I think maybe the Draco let the death eaters into the school before they expected because even dumbledore was surprised at the turn of events in terms of having the death eaters into the school so early.
I guess I could see it either way but I just can't stand up for someone who killed dumbledore!

I've read the DD and Snape had a plan before but I don't agree with it at all. Dumbledore is one of the if not the most powerul wizard around. He is without a doubt the strongest light wizard unless Harry pulls an animie hero and suddenly develops incredible powers. Why would they have a plan to throw their side into chaos?

Maybe Draco did do it early than they had thought but remember what they say at the end of SS about DD pretty much always knowing what is happening at Hogwarts? Unless he was depending on Snape for information adn Snape wasn't giving it I don't see how he could have missed it. DD's Legilimency could probably shatter Draco's Occulemency.

PurpleForge I feel the same way as you. I can see it anyway but can't stick up for Snape. Not in a jillion years.

Another thing. In CoS when Mrs. Norris first gets attacked it says Snape is surpressing a smile or something along that. Why inthe world would he be pleased about that if he was good? Obviously he coudl dislike Filch or Mrs. Norris but really, that's not a very appropiate reaction. Something being mysteriously petrified is not a good thing.

I know that Voldemort considered Barty Crouch Jr. as his most loyal servant and thought that Snape had left him forever...but I have read some posts in which it is said that LVoldemort fully trust Snape (which I don't think it is possible).
I was just trying to make my point. Thanks anyways

Well, first of all, thank you Xgirl, I am glad you agree. I know what you mean about the Mrs. Norris thing. It is granted that he is not a good person, essentially. For example, he said he saw no difference when malfoy's spell hit hermione and caused her teeth to grow.
But, his evilness aside, I think he could still Jk making him good in the end. I just wouldn't forgive him, though, for killing dumby. I think that I would accept the whole they made a plan theory only if there was no other alternative. and as i think that there was an alternative to, at least in my opinion, I will not accept his complete loyalty to dumbledore until after I read Dh.



As for snape being voldy's most loyal death eater, I think that bellatrix's words in HBP were proof enough that voldy really trusts snape. Narcissa also said that voldy trusted snape the most, so i think that answers that.
PurpleForge