How do we know that snape isnt faking on Narcissa? Well I think that Snape is faking because it says on page 36 of HBP that Snapes hand twitched when they were doing the unbreakable vow and i think he took his hand out of hers and just said he would do all that stuff when he really might kill draco when they are in hiding in DH.

That would be cool, but how do we know that he took his hand out of Narcissa's? Second, how do we know that Draco only did it because if he didn't he, his mother, and father(when gets out of prison) would be killed? Thirdly, how do we know that Snape is bad, and not acting on DD orders?

I think that Dumbledore knew about the vow and told Snape that if he must kill him then he must kill him. And that was why Dumbledore all of a sudden told Harry everything he knew about Voldy.
Snapes hand twitching though... I never gave that much thought, maybe since his hand twitched that part wasn't part of the vow completely. But then right after it says that it twitched it says that he did not draw away...
Maybe he was still loyal to Dumbledore, but was acting under Dumbledores orders to act as a Death Eater so it twitched because he didn't want to kill Dumbledore but knew that he would have to if Draco didn't.

When I first read it, Snape twitching seemed to be an act of being hesitant. I think he was just nervous about everything, it is his life on the line afterall. Maybe he was nervous because of his loyalties to either Dumbledore and Voldemort. Which ever he supported wouldn't be too happy with his decision.

Maybe his hand twitched because he has a thing for Narcissa Malfoy. Lol, I've always thought that they'd be a much better couple that Narcissa and Lucius.

Well...you have a point, but i think Narcissa would have noticed if snape did move his hand or take it away.

just saying

Lil Cougar Posted Mar 31 2007, 09:27 PM
I think that Dumbledore knew about the vow and told Snape that if he must kill him then he must kill him. And that was why Dumbledore all of a sudden told Harry everything he knew about Voldy.
Snapes hand twitching though... I never gave that much thought, maybe since his hand twitched that part wasn't part of the vow completely. But then right after it says that it twitched it says that he did not draw away...
Maybe he was still loyal to Dumbledore, but was acting under Dumbledores orders to act as a Death Eater so it twitched because he didn't want to kill Dumbledore but knew that he would have to if Draco didn't.

I agree with Lil Cougar i am one of the people who still thinks that Snape is good. i hope that he was just working under DD's order. and did it have anything to do with when Snape looked out the window and jerked it closed?

i think snape is pure evil. sry but i do. i think he set up the whole killing dumbldore thing with dumbledore because dumbledore thought he was on his side. i dotn think he is going to kill draco. but i do think both of them will eventually turn good.

I just made a post about this in another area so here it is for this one too

I think Snape did find the loophole to the unbreakable vow "make sure when it's made that it is made so VAGUE that it can't be broken" if you notice that Snape almost withdrew his hand when they were making the vow but at the last moment he didn't because he realized she wasn't going in dept enough to force him to honor every part of the vow

I think he really made the vow. He pretty much had to in order to remain trusted in the position that he was in. I think that his hand twitched because he was hoping that he wouldnt have to do it and uncomfortable with doing it because he is loyal to dumbledore. But as far as we know the spell was completed accurately.


PhoenixCycle aka Drist Mason

I heard a theory on Mugglecast that said that Snape was truly on Dumbledore's side and he killed Dumbledore on his orders, any way something like that. We could be wrong about Snape

There seems to be a lot to be said in a twitch. It doesn't exactly seem as though you could "fake" an unbreakable vow. I think some of you are reading too deeply into it. All that it shows to me is that Snape was apprehensive toward the vow and still held loyalty to dumbledore. As we know, snape is brilliant, even though he is a raging lunatic. He probably thought about every conceivable conclusion to this and realized that dumbledore's death was inevitable.

I don't think that Snape did remove his hand as if he did the connection between them both would have been broken and when he vowed to do it if Draco couldn't then the rope thing wouldn't have come out of Bellatrixs wand to show the connection. But, i do think that there is some good in Snape as he did keep trying to save Harry in PS and in POA when he saw the werewolf the first thing he did was completely shield them so he would get hurt first if Lupin attacked. Als in OOTP he tried hard to get Harry to fight the Mind breaking as if he didn't really care he just would have given up and not worrried about it but he tried and tried and never gave up until Harry saw the memory so that shows he did try to help but there are some things he did not want to be reminded off so he lost it.

The other thread has grown to over 75 pages, so it's time for a new one. The old one has been locked and archived and may be found here.

The last few posts in the previous thread were:-

casu consulto
i'm not realy decided but look at this
when snape was about to kill dumbledore, dumble dore says "please...please..."
so dumble dor could have been begging snape to kill him so snape can stay undercover with the DEs. think about it.

LittleRed7771



I don't ever remember DD saying that the only person who could recite it was the person to whom it was made. I do know that the only people who could remove the prophecy from the shelf in the Hall of Prophecy were the ones to whom the prophecy was made about. Could that be what you meant?

thedogstar
well, how does the process of legilimancy work (i didn't spell that right, sorry)? just because trelawny didn't remember doesn't mean the event is irretrievable, does it? Snape said its not exactly "reading one's mind" per-say...maybe LV could still take the memory, so its still important that Snape never mentioned who made it.

HP'sPrincessFiona




well, I found this quote from DD: "The thing that smashed was merely the record of the prophecy kept by the Department of Mysteries. But the prophecy was made to somebody, and that person has the means of recalling it perfectly."

So i don't know if that limits the remembrance of it to just "that person", but it sounds as if they'd be the only one to "recall it perfectly", or recite it. does that make sense?





well, as we saw in POA, when Trelawney made the prophecy, it was as if something had posessed her. And afterward she acted as if nothing had happened. I think in order to have a memory of something, you have to have known what you are doing. It's like when Ginny was posessed by Tom, she has blank spots in her memory because she has no knowledge of what happened during those times. While, no, Trelawney was not posessed by LV in any way, she still seemed to have no idea what went on in that brief period of time, so I don't think anyone could retract a memory of it, because i honestly don't think it was really there to begin with.

thedogstar
ahh, that's helpful, thanks so much! But that reminds me, if Snape was listening to Trelawny from outside the door, doesn't that mean that he could at least remember the part he heard? and still, he would know that it was Trelawny...I think even if LV couldn't retract the memory, he'd probably try just to double check. He seemed pretty desperate to get his hands on it...
I know this is all off topic but I just want to get it strait because it might be the reason Snape is innocent!

It certainly seems evident to me that Severus Snape is in fact loyal to Albus Dumbledore. The weight of the canonical evidence is astounding and one doesnt need to delve too deeply to find the benefits of murdering Albus Dumbledore while still remaining loyal to him and his cause.

Imagine the wealth of power and influence the Order would recieve if Snape is truly loyal to Albus Dumbledore. By killing Dumbledore, Snape removes all doubt from Voldemort's mind as to his true allegiance. Snape will be hoisted higher and higher in the ranks of the Death Eaters and thus will be at the optimal position to help topple the Dark Lord Voldemort by helping the only one who can stop him, Harry Potter.

Snape is delightfuly character in that he is comprised of endless facets that lead us bewildered and wondering. Who is he really loyal to? Why is he so mean? I believe that the true nature of Severus Snape truly begins to unfold when you keep in mind that he is loyal to Albus Dumbledore. By keeping this in mind you can fully appreciate the subtle comments and sly manner of Severus Snape that adds to his mysticism and respectability. If Severus Snape truly is Evil, then he is not as complicated as one would hope, and I would really be disappointed with JKR's choice.

Severus Snape is loyal to Albus Dumbledore.

~Albus

I could not agree more with Albus Dumbledore; there certainly is a lot of evidence about Snape’s loyalty to Dumbledore.
As to what it was said before, I was thinking that if Voldemort would have really wanted to hear the prophecy from Trelawney herself, I’m pretty sure that he would be able to resort to his own ways and means to get the prophecy out of her, just like he did with Bertha Jorkins’ modified memory.

I agree that there are layers upon layers of Snape that we have yet to see and feel. I'm sure DH will be highly enlightening as these layers start to unravel before our eyes and the true Snape emerges.

He is, in my eyes, beyond a shadow of a doubt loyal to DD. I wonder what steps he will have to take to make Harry realize this so he will trust him in bringing LV down from the inside out.

Thanks to DD's death (although quite sad), Snape is in the prime position to do what it takes to help Harry succeed.

i agree with you all and to continue what was said, I too am very interested in finding out what Snape will have to do in order for Harry to trust him!

So who are the three people so far who've voted that Snape is loyal to Voldemort?! This is going to become a very one-sided debate if you don't post to say why! *shakes head*

For the record, and for possibly the final time seeing as how I've already said pretty much everything I have to say on this subject, I'd just like to say that my faith is still in Snape being loyal to Dumbledore, and I'm sure he'll come through in the end. If he doesn't...well...I guess I'll have to live with it, but I'll be one very disappointed little person...

Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, im certain of it! there are loads of clues in the last book indicating snape and Dumbledore planned DD death and he is actually on the good side! i think most people know these clue so im not going to ramble through them!
i would be disappointed if it ended as snape being loyal to voldemort, but i dont think this will happen!

I think I'd throw a royal fit if Dumbledore's murderer was not in fact loyal to him. I shook my fists at JK Rowling for killing my most favorite character but I wouldnt be able to deal with it if he didnt die for a MUCH higher cause. Obviously his death is important and crucial no matter if Severus is good or bad, but it means so much more if Dumbledore sacrificed himself to help Snape help Harry.

~Albus

a royal fit!
i see what you mean though, if we find out he died for a purpose and a good purpose at that than it makes it better to take that he had to be killed off! i firmly believe this is the case anyway, the whole DD death is one big master plan to enable snape to help harry kill LV! and its going to work, SNAPE IS ON THE GOOD SIDE

Snape is definitely loyal to Dumbledore. The people who disagree are just judging a book by it's cover. Snape agreeably has the feel of a Death Eater, but that's because he WAS one. People can change and become a completely new and different person, if the world will forgive them and give them a second chance. Dumbledore did exactly that. Everything that points to Snapes loyalty to Voldemort is simply a cover to help him spy on Voldemort. But the true signs of loyalty are how he's saved Harry from death numerous times, had all the opportunities to kill Harry and didn't, (legilimens practices) and he's a potions master who could've poisoned him at any time. There are many other examples of this, but to me, the strongest fact is that Dumbledore trusted him, Dumbledore died to save Harry and also protect Snape from dying as a traitor to Voldemort. Dumbledore saved more than one life the night he died and if Snape doesn't honor that life debt, then I will be extremely shocked.

I resent the comment that people who disagree with Snape is loyal to Dumbledore are just judginmg a book by its cover. I happen to think that Snape is out for himself. He may be loyal to Dumnbledore and/or Voldemort but I think that Snape is looking out for himself mostly. It is very difficult to know exactly though. I don't think Snape has a life debt to Dumbledore because I don't think Dumbledore was saving Snape by asking Snape to kill him. I do not think DD's death was planned so I see it as a very difficult thing to have a life debt because you killed someone who wanted to save you. If killing DD was saving Snape maybe he did it just to save himself.

I'm glad that GreenGred expressed their opinion. Finally someone who has a different idea and is willing to go against the grain. I agree that Snape is a very selfish person and is looking out for his own interests, but if you had to choose which side he is on, and there are only two choices, Dumbledore or Voldemort, I still say Dumbledore.

I disagree, like I said Snape is selfish and I think he has saved Harry (several times, but not that many) because of the debt he owed to HArrys father so I think in the end it will be more about Snape picking the winning side. Which will most likely be HArry's but I dont think its because of HArry/DD. I still have a difficult time even considering that Snape is good.

I will agree with alot that has been said, however I side with GreenGred, for some of the reasons that have been given for him being loyal to DD, I see him is in it for himself, I have waffled on if he is loyal to DD or himself, and I stll came back to that he has the traits that Slytherin looked for when the Hat selected students, and I would expect nothing less from Snape. By being loyal only to himself, it has allowed him to work for LV and DD at the sametime, using the information that he has gotten to effect to outcome. Yes I do believe that DD death was for the greater good and not senseless murder. Snape has shown logical thought, he would not have killed DD solly on orders for LV without discussing it with DD. DD would have had knowledge and agreed to die based on a criteria that would have had to been met.

I am suspicious of the theory that DD had planned his death for reasons that dont belong in this particular forum. I do think he died for a bigger reason but at the moment we dont know what it was. Either way I think it is a hit that greatly hindered Harry. DD would have been nothing but help for Harry so it is hard for me to say Snape could be onn DD's side when being loyal to DD is being loyal to HArry.

I'm not sure about DD having planned his death with Snape. I think it might have been discussed but never actually agreed on or decided upon. I think Snape is on Dumbledores side more than just for picking the winning side. I think he does have a sense of right and wrong and he will make that choice, the right choice, in the book to come.

i disagree that snape is in it for himself, even if his personality portrays him like that, i dont think its the case!
i think hes loyal to dumbledore, i disagree that the planned death is 'suspicious', in fact it makes perfect sense! by killing dumbledore, the only wizard that voldemort ever feared, this would put snape in a position of trust and high praise from voldemort. he would be his 'most loyal servant' as is always mentioned! therefore, gaining this respect and new found glory amongst the ranks of the DE, he would be the one trusted upon with voldemort plans and secrets in killing harry. snape will then use these against voldemort and help harry defeat him. killing dumbledore is probably the only thing big enough that snape could have done to truly get on voldemorts good side and quash suspicions hes actually a spy for DD. thats why DD made the sacrifice and this is what will help harry the most in book7.

I happen to have a profound respect to the views of those who think that Snape is either on his own side or on Lord Voldemort’s.
Nevertheless, I have a question for you all …
According to your views, how would you explain, for example, in book 5- when Hermione and Harry are caught in Umbridge’s office- after Umbridge calls Snape; and Snape is about to leave…
Why would he even bother to alert the other Order members about what Harry said to him (about LV having caught Sirius) if he is in it for himself??? What profit would he gain from it if –apparently- Harry wasn’t going to be able to go anywhere because of Umbridge???
I hope I made my point clear enough

no one with the view that snapes in it for himself or loyal to voldemort seems to be able to answer that question, yet!

He alerted the Order because he is loyal to dumbledore!
some of you will say he only did to make DD think hes on his side, but he could have still waited a while until he told the order but told DD he did it staright away. he hated sirius, so he could have easily have waited to try and give LV as long a time as possible to kill sirius, but he didnt, straightaway he contacted grimauld place, when he realised sirius was safe and well, he looked for harry, when he realised he had gone, he alerted the order and told them harry had gone to the MoM.
he is loyal to dumbledore!

I think Snape could be working for himself, I mean, if he alerted the Order it could also mean that he wants the Order and the Death Eaters to fight each other to decrease the amount of his opposition. How convenient for him to be a "double spy" so he couldn't join in on the fight at the MoM.

I am undecided about Snape. I tend to lean more towards the "he's on Dumbledore's side" camp, but I think that JKR is going to throw us all for a loop with this one. I'm not sure how, but I just feel it coming. I think the fact that we know virtually nothing about Unbreakable Vows means that they're going to become very, very important... they were never mentioned until HBP. It's possible that opposing vows cancel each other out, therefore enabling one person to make several with several different people (Snape/Dumbledore, Snape/Narcissa, etc...), or that the power and importance of the vow is closely tied to the person who serves as bonder... if Snape took an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore as bonder, and then another with Bellatrix as bonder, perhaps the Dumbledore vow takes precedence...

But who knows. I am anxious to find out.

I forgot to add - I don't think that Snape alerting the Order to Sirius' "kidnap" is at all a way to tell which side he's on, in and of itself... Even if he is a DE or a double agent, he had to notify them to keep his cover as a member of the OOTP. If he had not, eventually it would have come to light that Harry had told him, and he had done nothing. Harry was very keen to tell Dumbledore that snape HAD done nothing, so we know that Dumbledore would have found out quickly.

He didn't have a choice in that situation... he had to make the notification, unless he wanted his cover blown in a big way.

I get your points, and I knew you'd say that he wouldn't blow his cover, that's logical and quite obvious if he wasn't on Dumbledore's side, but why immediately ??? As white_bumblebee well said, he could have waited a while, and still he wouldn't risk his cover...

I've worte that as an example of the things that, to me, are quite difficult to explain from the point of view of Snape being in it for himself or on LV's side, I never said it was a way to tell in which side is he.

jester_lynn, what do you mean that he alerted the Order because "he wants the Order and the Death Eaters to fight each other to decrease the amount of his opposition"?? Even if it was like that, he'd never know who would die (in case the Order and the DE fought each other), so I don't see how he could think of that as a possibility...maybe I got your point wrong, if I did, please correct me.

I see what you're saying. I guess I just don't see what waiting vs not waiting would really have accomplished, other than to risk being exposed as a DE to the OOTP if he waited. What does not notifying them do for him? Not much, really.

Think about it this way. If he's truly a DE, then wouldn't he most likely already be aware that Voldemort is playing mind games with Harry, and that he is using the Sirius kidnap ploy as a way to draw Harry to the DoM? Certainly, if he's Voldemort's most trusted follower as he implies in HBP, he would be aware of the plan. He would have already known, then, that Sirius had not been kidnapped, and could not have been thinking of giving Voldemort a little bit more time to kill him.

I get your point, but if he was a Death Eater, and knew about LV's plan, why keeping up appeareances with the Order if everything was going so smooth? He could perfectly not say anything, and therefore, avoid the possibility of other Order members to stand in LV's path; right??
It would be much easier, no one would know Harry and the others went to the Ministry of Magic, and LV would have killed Harry and the Death Eaters could have killed the others, without any diversions. What difference it made after all? if in the end, Harry would be dead, and he would still be Vodemort's most trusted follower...

i was reading JK's sight the other day and she was stressing the fact that the movies have the most important plot characters as well as the most crucial of the conversations. So, in re-watching HP and the GoF I could not help but notice something Sirius said about Karkorav. He said "Karkorav was once a Death Eater and no one stops being a Death Eater. NO ONE."
i believe that Snape is good, but isn't that a little strange for JK to emphasize? Especially when we are all most worried about Snape returning to his Death Eater ways? I think that the obvious conclusion when considering Snape's loyalties is to observe that he could very superficially be on LV's side but is in all actuality loyal to Dumbledore alone. All signs point to Snape being good. Could it be possible that JK is trying to truly surprise us by finally revealing that Snape is evil? I don't think she will do that...at least, i HOPE she will not. I've grown rather fond of snivellus...

Yup, that is what I meant. For example, let's say John Doe and Jane Doe are enemies. I happen to be playing both sides to my advantage (John said you were dumb... Jane said you throw like a girl...). If they just fought and "killed" (it's a strong word) each other off, I would win. Snape is caught between to diverse forces, the DE's and the Order... he's playing both sides so he can come out on top in the end.

Actually, I would have to say my initial belief is that Snape is on the Order's side, but I was just trying to get some new arguments/theories going.

Why would Snape notify the Order, well aside from DD who trusts him? We have DD who shares information with Snape, but what do the other members do. If Snape is working for LV he would have needed to gain trust of the order members to be more effective. Same goes for the DEs. Here we have the one person playing both sides who to some extent has the ear and the trust of the opposing leaders while the rank and file question his loyalties. He warns Sirius and the Order and makes a UV infront of Bella, the two who probably trust him the least from both sides.

What I find to be a more questionalbe action is that of DD. While Harry runs to get his cloak, DD warns the Order to guard Hogwarts. However DD does not tell Snape. Why would DD not inform, who I feel to be one of the strongest wizards, Snape to aid the Order? I would assume DD wanted to have Snape available if he of Harry were injured in the quest, but to out right not let him know.

You know, I hadn't thought about that before. It never even occurred to me. You make a very good point. After some pondering, I have a possible solution or theory.

Seeing as how DD always seems to know what is going on and when something might happen, it is possible that he had his suspicions that something would transpire that night while they were gone. That is why he had the Order patrolling the corridors. I don't think or recall them being asked to do that on prior occasions.

Why did DD not inform Snape of this? Probably to keep his cover. If a battle was to break out (which it did), Snape would be forced to take sides. If he fought with the Order, he would not be allowed to return to LV for fear of retribution and thus he would not be in the perfect position to help Harry when the time came. If he fought with the DE's, which he did, he would lose the trust of the Order. This, however, would be a small price to pay for the greater good if Snape is key to helping Harry in his quest to defeat LV.

So, if Snape was able to stay out of a/the battle, he would still be able to maintain both positions with the Order and with LV. Unfortunantly, certain circumstances changed the course and Snape was forced to do what he did. I think DD was hoping that Snape would have made it out to him without running into someone (reason why he said talk to no one), but Malfoy and the DE's prevented a quiet reunion and Snape had to act.

You have a very interesting theory there, LittleRed7771...
You're right, if Snape fought with the Order, he'd lose his cover in LV's side and he wouldn't be able to return (and maybe find out more things), thus he wouldn't be able as well, to help Harry when the time comes...
However, if he fought on LV's side, the Death Eaters would never suspect of him, and although he risked to lose trust of the Order -as you said "a little price for him to pay"-, he would be able to help not only Harry but the others to finally defeat Lord Voldemort.

Snape is, as of now, on Voldemort's side. He may, after a unknown occurence, switch his allegience. But he is with out a doubt, a bad guy and there is no proof against that and all the proof for it (i.e. HE KILLED FREAKING DUMBELDORE) and i refuse to believe that Dumbeldore had near suicidal tendancies and told Snape to kill him. There is just no reason a strong, but nevertheless old, man tells someone to kill him. That would be like my WWII-Veteran-great Grandfather telling me he wanted me to end his life like that of his comrades and put a Luger round to the back of the head(sorry for the graphic-ness of that last sentence but I had to get my point across)

After once again concluding GoF, I find myself wondering about Snape. It doesn't quite fit together for me why he was irritated at Karkaroff. Obviously, they were on a first name basis from their previous DE days. Snape is now a professor, yet Karkaroff is actually Headmaster of a magical school...? What gives?

Karkaroff turned over the names of DEs (including Snape himself) to be spared a life sentence in Azkaban. Oddly, Snape doesn't appear to despise him even as much as he does Harry. Rather, Snape seems to treat him with disdain for being afraid of the darkening Dark Mark upon his arm. Something Snape appears to be taking for granted as the year passes. Snape's openness to show the mark to Fudge seems to place him effectively on DD's side (which is definitely where I believe his allegience to be), as well as telling Karkaroff to flee if that is what he wants to do. ~Going so far as to tell Karkaroff he will make excuses for him. That appears to be indicative of the fact Snape recognizes Karkaroff is afraid for his life, has reason to be, yet has no concern over his possible escape from Voldemort's wrath. Should word return to Voldemort that Snape assisted him in his escape, Snape didn't appear to be concerned about it.

Snape did not recognize Moody was under the influence of PP, yet knew stores had been stolen. Barty Crouch, Jr. certainly used his animosity for Snape to support Moody's view that Snape was not to be trusted; Snape distrusted Crouch posing as Moody equally. What I wonder is why did Snape defer to Moody in the passageway when Harry got trapped in the trick stair and the egg went bouncing and whailing? Snape only defers to Dumbledore, as well he should.

Why would Snape both defer to Moody and offer to give excuses should Karkaroff wish to flee?

I hopefully believe on Snape's innocence and I beg his loyalty wil be on Dumbledore's side. Though there are some strange clues that can mix up a bit, I've never dare to say he has always stayed next to DD and the Order.

SNAPE IS INNOCENT

I've been gone a while and had to read every post from my last, and even a few before it. It was tiring but worth it. I see that people are now desperate to get their opinions in before the release... some of them very interesting.

The purpose of my writing today is to acknowledge that you, Sirren, have made a very intriguing... discovery, we'll call it. When reading GoF the first few times, I missed those things. However, now that you mention them little details are popping up at me like rogue bludgers!

My first thought was that... well I didn't really have a thought. I was a bit shocked that I'd missed out on those delicious notions. But now I think of it, I'm sure it's Snape trying to play his roles. We look at Snape in HBP and acknowledge how smoothly he plays both sides. But he did have a bit of a rocky start. All in all I think that he's mostly just frazzled by his feelings toward Harry. I think that keeps him from being able to keep it together most times.

He IS Snape, The Potions Master, but he's still a person, who can make mistakes... Just as Dumbledore could have done. I think what you noticed, Sirren, is Snape perhaps having a "human" moment? What do you make of that?

thecortni, it could indeed be that simple. Snape does his best to hide behind anger; more content to be on the offensive than to be on the defensive, it is how he protects himself emotionally: by acting as though he has no emotions. However, JKR has painted him very well, she does sprinkle raw emotion into Snape every so often. Perhaps this was simply one of those times. Rather than berate Karkaroff for being afraid, Snape offers to extend his excuses so he can flee. Obviously, we were not exposed to any instance where Snape believed anything else to be wrong with Karkaroff, nothing more than his fear of Voldemort's return. Snape seemed to even understand it. Hardly Snape's style.

Another instance where his true emotions slip through his well-built armour was during the Oclumency lessons. He broke through into Harry's memories and viewed Lily and James waving furiously at Harry from the Mirror of Erised. JKR's description of Snape was something akin to visibly shaken and more pale than usual. Something that has always stuck with me.

In all honesty, through my other readings of GoF, I too, never noticed the exchange between Snape and Karkaroff or how Snape deferred to the imposter Moody. Just read right on through and noticed nothing. This time they are just as you described them: little details are popping up at me like rogue bludgers!

I wonder if you are correct? Perhaps it was just a glimpse of Snape as a human being, not being such a git, not being on the offensive all the time. He wasn't afraid like Karkaroff, he didn't seem to despise him even though he gave up his name to the Wizengamot, he offered to provide excuses if he wished to flee. Perhaps he was just acting like Snape would act, if he weren't playing the ultimate role of duplicity.

I completely agree with you guys,
I think JKR wanted to show that Snape IS a human being, that he, like everyone else, has feelings...


I think that, especially in this case, when Snape saw Lily and James in the Mirror, he felt a deep remorse (not so much because of James, but for Lily), after all, that memory had to strike him in some way, because he wasn't expecting something like that to happen (mainly because he didn't know about Harry's encounter with the Mirror of Erised, I suppose)

If we look at Snape being in it for himself, would not the reaction to Karkaroff fit. Go ahead run away, I will cover for you wink wink. What better way for Snape to deflect some of the wrath he is to get from LV then to offer up information on Karkaroff, and possible his where abouts. Remeber Karkaroff is the one who gave up names, including that of Snapes at the trial to protect his own backside. I doubt that Snape would have gone before LV upon his returning and give that much effort to protect Karkaroff, well you know Tom, he said he was going to the south of France to hide, no not north.

In addition, while Snape plays both sides, he would see Karkaroff fleeing as a cowardly act. And we see how emotional Snape can get with being called a coward.

And again, we come back to the possible feelings Snape had for Lily, in seeing Harry's memroy of the mirror, followed by Snape's worst memory of having call Lily a mud blood. If the bases of Snapes flip was Lily's death and he is searching to avenge her, what better way then to assist those who are against LV. It has nothing to do with Snape being loyal to DD or the Order but with his own self pity. In addition, I doubt Snape has issues with the DEs, his bone to pick is with LV, and if i go further, let say Snape heard the entire prophecy and only relayed the first part to LV. Then Snape, buying into the prophecy, would know that Harry was the chosen one, long before the rest of the wizarding world, and his only chance to beat LV, is to arm Harry the best he can without breaking the cover of spy that DD has given him.

Very valid point about Karkaroff. I never thought of that. Snape could indeed have given Karkaroff up to LV, that could be how Snape survived once again. Hmm, have to ponder that a bit more.

I do believe Snape heard the entire prophecy, I just do not have a reason that fits as to why he conveyed only part of it to LV. You might have that answer.

I doubt Snape gave up Igor. He lasted a year before he was killed (at the begining of HBP). Snape was already back in Voldemort's good graces at that point.

What I find intriguing is that Snape cleverly evaded the question of what he has provided Voldmort by saying that he provided it to him directly, and then put the focus back on Bellatrix and her fall from grace with the Dark Lord. This put her on the defensive and she doesn't persue it further. There are several times that Snape cleverly takes the focus off questions that would be very difficult to answer if Snape was not truly on Voldemort's side, usually by putting the focus back on Bella rather than himself. If you look at it closely, you find that Snape never says anything that inidicates that he actually knows what the plan is. The whole conversation makes a lot of sense in the context that Snape is bluffing to find out more.

Note too that snape says something along the lines of, "Wormtail has taken to listening at doors. I don't know what he means by it." It looks like Voldemort didn't fully trust Snape. Perhaps he didn't tell Snape the plan after all. Perhaps Snape agreed without fulling knowing the plan.

Oh, here's a brainwave, though probobly unlikely. Hagrid said (paraphrasing again here, but it's pretty close), "Then Dumbledore said summat about Snape doing investigations in his own house." Could he mean Spinner's End?

-Fish