I hope this thread hasn't been mentioned--but I couldn't find anything about it.

After reading a thread about why the Potters/Sirius trusted Peter Pettigrew with the secret of their location, I started thinking about the similarities between Peter and Kreacher.

The marauders always seemed to treat Peter with disdain. He appeared to exist solely to bolster their social status. Peter was like a mobile fan club for James and Sirius. (Notice--Harry would have been mortified by something similar--Colin Creevey following him around.)

In essence, while the Marauders probably stuck up for Peter, they didn't treat him like an equal. The thought he was so grateful for their friendship that he wouldn't even fathom betraying them. They underestimated him--his cleverness, his capability for duplicity and his need for friends who respect him--or at least who appear to. In the end, the fact that James and Sirius underestimate Peter leads to their downfall--the murder of James and Lily and the unfair incarceration of Sirius.

The situation almost seems to repeat itself (with a few obvious differences) in Book 5, with Kreacher. Sirius (and to some degree, Ron and Harry) always treat Kreacher poorly and with disdain--just like how the Marauders treated Peter. They misunderstand Kreacher, mock him, even abuse him. This isn't to say that Kreacher doesn't deserve it--he is insulting, ornery, prejudiced, crazy, rude and generally vile. But he's still a living being, and perhaps his actions (like Dumbledore said) are the result of being treated like dirt for so many years. The important thing is, everyone underestimates him and as a result, he goes to the Malfoys and Voldemort, the only ones who accept him as he is. He betrays Sirius and the Order and ends up causing immense damage through that betrayal--directly contributing to Sirius' death.

Notice one more similarity, Hermione, a muggle born, is the only one who treats Kreacher with respect. In the same way, from what we know about Lily, also a muggle born, she was probably kind to Peter.

So when we look at these, do we realize that sometimes, it is the most weak and despised in society that end up causing the most damage--because of how they are treated? Do you think this theme will come to play at all in Book 7? How? Ideas and thoughts on this are welcome. Thanks for reading!

There are definitely similarities between them, but I think that the treatment of each is a bit different. Peter was accepted as a member of the Marauder's, whether grudgingly or not, he was included. He was a good enough friend to them that James felt he could be the Secret Keeper; and I doubt he would have made that decision rashly if he thought his treatment of Peter was out of line.

I do agree that they underestimated him. They underestimated his need for approval and his attraction to power.

However, I think that the treatment of Peter by James and Sirius is vastly different from the treatment Kreacher receives at the hands of pretty much everyone who comes into contact with him! Firstly, Kreacher was only ever loyal to Mrs. Black and the Malfoys. He was never loyal or friendly with Sirius - unless it was as a boy which we aren't privy to. Peter was counted amongst the friends. Moreover, Peter was hungry for the attention that those whom he betrayed gave him. Kreacher would much prefer it if those living in his house would just crawl off and die. Peter needed to affirmation and attention that Sirius gave him; Kreacher disdains it.

Being inundated with the pure-blood mentality and the biases of the family; Kreacher was definitely underestimated by Sirius. He thought Kreacher was worthless and inconsequential; and that proved his downfall. (Coupled with a few of Sirius other attributes. . .) Though no one regarded Peter as having much talent of his own; he would not have scorned the attention like Kreacher does.

In the end, I think it was more Peter's quest for acknowledgement, notoriety, and surrounding himself with power that turned him rather than his treatment. I think it's Kreacher's undying loyalty to Mrs. Black that really doomed Sirius - as we witnessed with the Weasleys, even purebloods who liked muggleborns were detestable to him. Sure, each of these character could have been treated better, and should have been treated better, but I do not believe it was the treatment that caused them to betray the others. I think it was something much more deep seeded than that.

It is interesting how Voldemort and Snape treat Peter; they are powerful, but perhaps he's learned the error of his ways by now? He's definately proved himself crafty, and I do wonder if he's going to surprise us all by the end. They regard him as cowardly and vile; which I think he is, but they don't seem to think much of him, either. Will he be underestimated once again?

Hmm, yes, good points, all. Yeah, they are a lot more different than I first noticed, but I was mostly thinking about the fact that both were underestimated, I think.

I do think Peter will be underestimated again--perhaps by the Death Eaters and by Harry and Co. I don't think it will be essential to the series (though you never know...his last betrayal was obviously a key part of the storyline) but I think it will be fairly significant.

I also still wonder about Kreacher--I don't think we're quite finished with him yet.

Personally, yes I do think that it is the most weak and despised in society that end up causing the most damage because of how they are treated. I know that this isn't related to Harry Potter but, school shootings, when kids bring guns to school is it the ones with a ton of friends and great home lifes? No. Its the ones who are hated by others and the ones who are made fun of constantly, and they probably don't have the best home life. I'm really not sure if this theme will come into play in book 7 or not, I guess it could again with Peter or Kreacher doing something else and messing something important up.


Yes I do agree that they underestimated Peter. But I don't think that he has an attraction to power, not for himself at least... He has an attraction to people with power, people that can protect him, James when they were kids, Voldemort now. When they were kids Peter had a fear of being made fun of so he hung out with James and Sirius, he knew that they would protect him somewhat from people that made fun of him. Now Peter is afraid of being killed, he knew that if he didn't tell Voldemort where the Potters were he would be killed. When he escaped in PoA, he went to Voldemort out of fear that Sirius might find him again. He knew that if he were with Voldemort no one would touch him.

Peter and Kreacher are not alike in many ways, but they are a like with the fact that they were both underestimated. Peter was by the Potters and Kreacher was by Sirius and Harry.

Lil Cougar good point about the downtrodden in schools. Those that are picked on and treated like freaks will freak and seek retaliation.

Peter was not hostile towards the others. he was taken in by them. He wasn't just tolerated. Would they have allowed him to work with them to become animagi? I keep coming back to that. If he was like Coli Creavy and just a nuisance little guy they never would have. They had to work harder with him....

He was a contemorary. He must have had his talents and fit into the group. Unless of course he threatened to tell on them....but they would have found another way to dump him (think Snape-torutures).

Why did Peter turn? Was he looking for the most powerful and thought the Order was going down and therefore went to LV? Was he courted and smoozed into the group because he was a weak link and LV knew he could turn him into a spy? Was he under the Imperius curse? Was he torutured? I doubt seriously that the Marauders drove him away because James made him his secret keeper. They still had some trust in him as a friend (I think).

Kreacher was evil to begin with. He is no contemporary. He is a servent. He let it be known to all that he would do what he could to make life bad. He was not treated as badly as he could have been (again, I think).

Kreacher was not trusted. He never turned. He did exactly what they expected him to do.

They are both traitors but one turned traitor and the other was made that way.

Cris

Well, so, now that the series is over, I think it is high time we discussed about Peter's and Kreacher's participation in the story.

I find similarities myself between the two, when it comes to the fact that they were both neglected by others or considered inferior. However, as it has been said already, Peter seeked for attention Kreacher didn't want. Peter wanted the famous Marauders to consider him a friend, but when he felt neglected, he thought that he could do something greater by becoming a Death Eater. He was convinced that this was his destiny, not realising that Voldemort was not the safe haven he wanted him to be. He was used by him as well.

Kreacher on the other hand, wants to be left alone. He is feeling superior than the Muggle-born Hermione or than the Weasleys, the blood traitors. He's living in his own universe where only mean people like the Malfoys are worth caring for. However, he never wanted another place. His desire was to serve the house of his mistress until the moment of his death. He realised this was his destiny and he fulfilled it.

However, having read DH, we see that there is a very important element that connects the two characters: the generosity demonstrated by Harry. At book three, Harry freed Peter and let him live, even though he knew it was bad choice. This action was paid back at DH where he escaped from the Malfoy mansion thanks to Peter. The same thing happened with Kreacher. When Harry decided to treat him nicely, despite his anger against him, the elf revealed to him a very important piece of information, and helped him get rid of one of the Horcruxes. Had it not been for Harry's kindness, he wouldn't have figured it all out so easily.

What do you guys think? I really want to see everyone's opinions on this topic!

I think some of the "evilness" that Peter and Kreacher displayed is mainly to the fact that they had never been treated real kindly in the first place. Peter has always been the underdog of the Marauders group, and I imagine James, Sirius, and Lupin didn't treat him in the same way they treated each other. It was obvious he was the odd man out, and Peter took the affection where and when he could get it. Unfortunately, it turned to praise from the Dark Lord...but who could blame Peter since all he really wanted was to be wanted?

As for Kreacher, I don't think he particularly enjoyed being a house elf, especially not for Sirius. After being in Sirius's care for so long, and having that rift, Kreacher was pretty bitter. Then again, Kreacher had all sort of ideas pushed into his head because of Mrs. Black, and that just created more friction between Kreacher and whoever else came along.

I think Harry was kind of a savior to these characters, and I mean that in the least religious way as possible. Harry knew that these two characters were bad and had made some crumy decisions and had strange ideas about good and evil, but he still saved them and he still did good things for them. In a way, I think characters like Peter and Kreacher really appreciate sincere generosity such as that which was shown by Harry. Those sort of characters are sometimes forgotten or judged, and having Harry still show them care after he knows the bad things they have said or done, really shows something about Harry's character. It also speaks volumes for Kreacher and Peter too, as they both did something for Harry in return. So Harry really is just another similarity between these two.