This is one of my crazy theories..
How did Voldemort apparate into the Department of Mysteries? Especially into the high security places where he managed to infiltrate..
I'll type more later..the glass house is on...
Interested though..high security? yeah right..
Full Version: How Did Voldemort Apparate In The D.of M.
that's the whole point it keeps you wondering
Are you sure he Apparated? The Ministry is not THAT bad is it? Surely they would have better security than that...
But Voldemort is known for knowing a lot of magic...making him one of the strongest 'wizards' in his time. He probably had another way of getting into the Dept, other than Apparating. Like taking a form of something else. Ohh, what if he's an animagus?? Hahah, just kidding, just kidding. There's also a chance that Malfoy or another Death Eater that the Ministry "trusts" could have sneaked him inside.
I'll reread the chapter once I get home...I'm currently in school right now
But Voldemort is known for knowing a lot of magic...making him one of the strongest 'wizards' in his time. He probably had another way of getting into the Dept, other than Apparating. Like taking a form of something else. Ohh, what if he's an animagus?? Hahah, just kidding, just kidding. There's also a chance that Malfoy or another Death Eater that the Ministry "trusts" could have sneaked him inside.
I'll reread the chapter once I get home...I'm currently in school right now
| QUOTE |
| 'He was there!' shouted a scarlet-robed man with a ponytail, [...] 'I saw him, Mr Fudge, I swear it was You-Know-Who, he grabbed a woman and Disapparated!' |
- OotP, Chp 36, p720, British Ed.
So, yep, he did indeed Disapparate! Don't say much for MoM security, does it?
Which begs the question...if Voldemort can get in and out of the MoM, then what exactly is stopping him from doing the same in Hogwarts, particularly now that he has access to Harry's mind?
So, yep, he did indeed Disapparate! Don't say much for MoM security, does it?
Which begs the question...if Voldemort can get in and out of the MoM, then what exactly is stopping him from doing the same in Hogwarts, particularly now that he has access to Harry's mind?
Perhaps the MoM has no anti-apparation wards. Doesn't Mr. Weasley usually apparate to work? And since Fudge denied the presence of Voldy the whole year, wouldn't defences be at an all time low? They think this is a time of peace. They have no reason to put up anti-apparation wards. More inconvienient for them.
yeah i agree with Bandoth on this one. why would they need so much security if they were denying that Voldemort came back?
Well, the only time we saw Voldemort Apparate and Disapparate he did it in the Atrium, which is the entrance to the MoM. When Harry went there for his hearing, he entered there through the visitor's entrance, and he saw wizards and witches coming through the fireplaces and also Apparating, then going into the MoM through the gates. All three modes of entering were appearantly working still the night of the DoM battle. I don't think you can Apparate into any other parts of the Ministry. I think it would be getting through those golden gates after working hours that would be the trick.
There is one other time Voldemort entered the MoM: when he was possessing his snake right before Christmas. But we don't know how he got in then. remember though that Voldemort and his followers spent months to breach the security of the MoM.
There is one other time Voldemort entered the MoM: when he was possessing his snake right before Christmas. But we don't know how he got in then. remember though that Voldemort and his followers spent months to breach the security of the MoM.
mrs brisbee oi declare you a genious(sp?)! i think you are right about ebverything you said but how did you remeber all of that? well i think that the MoM didnt use as much security and that the gates had a special anti-apparation charm on it or something like that.
Would Voldemort want to be flashing his knickers around in the ministry? He definately apparated or disapparated in the Department of Mysteries. It is one of those things though like Dana said. If he is powerful enough to get into the Department of Mysteries what could stop him from getting into Hogwarts?
I mean, Arthur Weasley has been working at the ministry for years and he still calls the staff 'unspeakables'. There would be some serious protection. Look at the prophecy. And if Voldemort could apparate directly into the DoM then he would have done it ages ago to get the prophecy.
I mean, Arthur Weasley has been working at the ministry for years and he still calls the staff 'unspeakables'. There would be some serious protection. Look at the prophecy. And if Voldemort could apparate directly into the DoM then he would have done it ages ago to get the prophecy.
i thought that the ministry of magic would have used security like at hogwarts! why didnt they? i thought that the MoM would have wanted to keep everything safe their (like the brains, and whatever else is there)
About Voldemort and the Prophecy...I don't think the issue was so much that he couldn't get into the MoM because he could have if he'd really wanted to.
The trouble is that it's difficult to decide when exactly the connection between Harry and Voldemort first started being 'active' in the sense of actual conscious, deliberate thoughts rather than just vague impressions of feelings. What I mean is that the dreams Harry was having about the corridor could mean one of two things - either he was picking up on Voldemort's very strong desire to gain access to the DoM and, because he's been there, his mind expressed what he was feeling through that continuous trip down the corridor in his dreams.
Or it could mean that Voldemort has visited the DoM before and that Harry was seeing Voldemort's actual thoughts and memories, rather than just his feelings , know what I mean?
And, in the end, As I said, I don't think the issue is really whether or not Voldemort could have gotten into the DoM - the problem was that only one whom the prophecy concerned would be able to retrieve it from the shelves.
I guess you could argue there that, as the prophecy concerned Voldemort as well as Harry, then why couldn't Voldemort grab it himself?
Two possibilities again....
Either Voldemort couldn't directly gain access to the DoM himself (which makes me wonder what kind of wizard he is if a bunch of kids can get through security while the strongest wizard of all time apparently can't) OR....dun, dun, duh!!.....the prophecy about the Dark Lord doesn't concern Voldemort........
I know...kind of a weird idea....I'm not gonna get into my latest weird little theory because y'all will think I've lost me marbles, but suffice it to say that it seems although Voldy could get into the MoM itself, it seems he can't (or won't) get into the DoM.....
I know he didn't want to be seen, but you'd think that the most powerful wizard of all time would be able to disguise himself in some way wouldn't you? I mean, why didn't he just disguise himself as one of the Unspeakables and just walk right in there himself to retrieve the prophecy? Can't he make himself invisible without a cloak like Dumbledore can? Can't he turn himself into a smaller snake and slip through the ductwork? There has to be loads of other ways he could have gotten in there.....
I dunno...not too bright, these baddies, are they? 
(Oooh...that was longer than I intended it to be...and now I've gone and made it longer!
)
The trouble is that it's difficult to decide when exactly the connection between Harry and Voldemort first started being 'active' in the sense of actual conscious, deliberate thoughts rather than just vague impressions of feelings. What I mean is that the dreams Harry was having about the corridor could mean one of two things - either he was picking up on Voldemort's very strong desire to gain access to the DoM and, because he's been there, his mind expressed what he was feeling through that continuous trip down the corridor in his dreams.
Or it could mean that Voldemort has visited the DoM before and that Harry was seeing Voldemort's actual thoughts and memories, rather than just his feelings , know what I mean?
And, in the end, As I said, I don't think the issue is really whether or not Voldemort could have gotten into the DoM - the problem was that only one whom the prophecy concerned would be able to retrieve it from the shelves.
I guess you could argue there that, as the prophecy concerned Voldemort as well as Harry, then why couldn't Voldemort grab it himself?
Two possibilities again....
Either Voldemort couldn't directly gain access to the DoM himself (which makes me wonder what kind of wizard he is if a bunch of kids can get through security while the strongest wizard of all time apparently can't) OR....dun, dun, duh!!.....the prophecy about the Dark Lord doesn't concern Voldemort........
I know...kind of a weird idea....I'm not gonna get into my latest weird little theory because y'all will think I've lost me marbles, but suffice it to say that it seems although Voldy could get into the MoM itself, it seems he can't (or won't) get into the DoM.....
I know he didn't want to be seen, but you'd think that the most powerful wizard of all time would be able to disguise himself in some way wouldn't you? I mean, why didn't he just disguise himself as one of the Unspeakables and just walk right in there himself to retrieve the prophecy? Can't he make himself invisible without a cloak like Dumbledore can? Can't he turn himself into a smaller snake and slip through the ductwork? There has to be loads of other ways he could have gotten in there.....
I dunno...not too bright, these baddies, are they?
(Oooh...that was longer than I intended it to be...and now I've gone and made it longer!
)
hmmm.. Voldemort not the true dark lord.. Interesting idea.. I doubt Voldemort would have gained acess to there. Maybe the true Dark Lord is the HBP..or I should keep my theories to the Quibbler!
But if Voldemort could apparate into the DoM like how he did. What was to stop him from going there and picking up the prophecy? ah, unanswered questions...
But if Voldemort could apparate into the DoM like how he did. What was to stop him from going there and picking up the prophecy? ah, unanswered questions...
Voldy never apparated into the DoM. He apparated and disapparated in the attrium of the MoM. That area is not guarded by much except maybe the security booth by the elevators. Voldy could have gotten the prophecy himself but he wanted to stay undercover as long as possible so by the time that the wizarding world found out that he was back, he would have all of his former strength. That is why he showed Harry where to go in the DoM. I don't think that "the dark lord" doesn't mean Voldy. Trelawny said that the dark lord would return greater and more terrible than ever in book three, right? That has to mean Voldy because he returned. The MoM had low security because it was more like a police department than a base of wizarding government at the time. They think Voldy is gone for good and that the next dark lord won't appear for another 50 years. No sence in using extra money to protect yourself from nothing right?
Right, right. The Atrium seems to be designed to accomodate wizards and witches comings and goings by various magical means. From there they go into the Ministry proper. On the night of the DoM battle the all security guards and other locks or alarm appear to have been put out of action.
I agree with you all that the security measures weren't what they could have been. I think Bandoth is right and Fudge refusing to see the danger led to the ministry not taking proper measures.
Maybe Voldemort got the images of what it actually looked like in the DoM from Rookwood (is that his name?). Harry never saw in his dream anything behind the door until after the Azkaban breakout.
Why did Voldemort not just go get the prophecy himself? Well, I was going to go with typical Evil Guy convoluted plotting, but another thought struck me as I was typing this. When Voldemort possessed his snake and breached the security of the MoM all the way to the DoM door, Harry dreamed about it. Harry might have been the problem with Voldemort going to the MoM and risking getting the prophecy himself, if Harry had had another vision and been able to alert someone in a matter of minutes...Okay, now that I've typed this theory I can see several holes in it. Oh, well...
I agree with you all that the security measures weren't what they could have been. I think Bandoth is right and Fudge refusing to see the danger led to the ministry not taking proper measures.
Maybe Voldemort got the images of what it actually looked like in the DoM from Rookwood (is that his name?). Harry never saw in his dream anything behind the door until after the Azkaban breakout.
Why did Voldemort not just go get the prophecy himself? Well, I was going to go with typical Evil Guy convoluted plotting, but another thought struck me as I was typing this. When Voldemort possessed his snake and breached the security of the MoM all the way to the DoM door, Harry dreamed about it. Harry might have been the problem with Voldemort going to the MoM and risking getting the prophecy himself, if Harry had had another vision and been able to alert someone in a matter of minutes...Okay, now that I've typed this theory I can see several holes in it. Oh, well...
No, it's not bad at all! Though, I mean, as he was such a good wizard, he should have found a way to sneak past! Of course, maybe the Death-Eaters actually "dealed" with the security guards before Harry and the others arrived! But then again, that would mean that Voldy would have to show himself... 
He is the most evil wizard for a century and one of the most powerful wizards that there is. It does seem likely that he found a way to get into there. But, Dumbledore who is a far more powerful wizard who was protecting it would surely have done a little more. Or perhaps Dumbledore wanted Voldemort to find the prophecy?
If Voldemort could get past those charms to get into the DoM perhaps Hogwarts isn't as safe as we really think. Especially when there are so many subtle clues placed through the books that it was almost done on purpose...
If Voldemort could get past those charms to get into the DoM perhaps Hogwarts isn't as safe as we really think. Especially when there are so many subtle clues placed through the books that it was almost done on purpose...
| QUOTE |
| If Voldemort could get past those charms to get into the DoM perhaps Hogwarts isn't as safe as we really think. Especially when there are so many subtle clues placed through the books that it was almost done on purpose... --Kreacher_the_house_elf |
Not sure I'm following you here. What was almost done on purpose?
So I'm thinking Voldemort's plot to get the prophecy was about 70 percent Evil Bad Guy convoluted plotting, and about 30 percent reasonable plan. After all, if the prophecy had gone missing when there were a few score witnesses who could swear Harry was at Hogwarts the whole time, then even Fudge might have to admit to himself that only Voldemort could have taken it. Also, the Death Eaters probably weren't expecting Ginny, Luna, or Neville to show up, or any of the kids to be as competent as they were (Yay! for the DA), and getting the prophecy from Harry wasn't the cakewalk they expected.
Voldemort is not afraid to use dark magic. I have no clue how he apparated in the DOM, but I know that he must have used dark magic.
As Bandoth has said twice before. Voldemort apparated and disapparated in the Atrium of the MoM. We do not know if he is able to apparate/disapparate in/out of the DoM.
No, he stated that but I'm not sure how truthful it was.. Dana quoted something if you can go to the first page..
Anyway, that's not really the point. So close to the department of mysteries then.
Another Question.
Why didn't Dumbledore hit him with an anti-disapparation hex like he did the others?
Anyway, that's not really the point. So close to the department of mysteries then.
Another Question.
Why didn't Dumbledore hit him with an anti-disapparation hex like he did the others?
The whole Harry vs. Bellatrix and Dumbledore vs. Voldy took place in the attrium. That is where the fountain of bretheran thing was. Dumbledore used the statues to block spells and protect Harry. That is proof that it is the attrium. The attrium is on level one where the DoM is on level nine. I don't know how statues could go down nine floors in one elevator.
I believe that an anti-disapparation jinx could be blocked. The only thing that hit its target was the whip thing that Dumbledore made, and that was countered by Voldy too. An anti-disapparation jinx is more like a finisher. It's too simple to use on a dark lord!
I believe that an anti-disapparation jinx could be blocked. The only thing that hit its target was the whip thing that Dumbledore made, and that was countered by Voldy too. An anti-disapparation jinx is more like a finisher. It's too simple to use on a dark lord!
Yeah, it was definitely in the atrium, which, I guess, isn't covered by the same kind of wards as the DoM...but that still doesn't solve the problem that I think Voldemort could have gained access to the DoM in other ways, as I said on the previous page. I don't understand why he had to go through such a palaver to get the prophecy when it was supposedly concerning him as well....
As for the Anti-disapparation jinx....yeah, far too simple to use on THE Dark Lord.... It's going to take far more than a couple of spells to bring him down.....I would have thought that DD would have realised that.....
As for the Anti-disapparation jinx....yeah, far too simple to use on THE Dark Lord....
It's going to take far more than a couple of spells to bring him down.....I would have thought that DD would have realised that.....
Voldemort could only get the prophecy by stealth. If he ever revealed himself before then, security measures stronger than could ever be made (except for at Hogwarts) would be put up. Only Voldy himself or Harry could pick up the prophecy. He could do so much more damage to the wizarding world in stealth and his first attack would be catastrophic. If revealed, he would have a weak force of 10-80 Death Eaters against the whole wizarding world. Not very wise in my book. So, he didn't just barge in there and steal the prophecy.
well, as Voldemort apperated in the atrium, it was middle in the night, and it all was planed, so he had to make some obstacle to make all the Auror's get behind time, as they'r dark diffending instruments warning them, cause the Auror's did come, only they come after the dramatic was over, so they were belated.
Hogwarts is protected with a countless number of charms, we dont know how they work do we?
an apart of all that, Dumbledore is ther, most time of the year, isn't he,
(exept he time umbridge were headmaster in OoTP)Grrr, gosh I loved it when fred and george fired off all theyr new firworks, and Umbridge tried to jinx them and they just doubbled or exploded and all that.
you surely have read the book I hope:P
Hogwarts is protected with a countless number of charms, we dont know how they work do we?
an apart of all that, Dumbledore is ther, most time of the year, isn't he,
(exept he time umbridge were headmaster in OoTP)Grrr, gosh I loved it when fred and george fired off all theyr new firworks, and Umbridge tried to jinx them and they just doubbled or exploded and all that.
you surely have read the book I hope:P
Voldemort did not Apparate or Disapparate into/out of the Department of Mysteries. That whole scene took place in the Atrium. For further evidence, it case anyone is still skeptical:
| QUOTE |
| He could hear a lift clattering ahead of him. He sprinted up the passageway, swung around the corner, and slammed his fist onto the button to call a second life. It jangled and banged lower and lower, the grilles slid open and Harry dashed inside, now hammering the button marked Atrium. The doors slid shut and he was rising... He forced his way out of the life before the grilles were fully open and looked around. Bellatrix was almost at the telephone lift at the other end of the hall, but she looked back as he sprinted toward her, and aimed another spell at him. |
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 809 - 810, Scholastic Edition
I'm sure we all agree that the battle between Voldemort and Dumbledore took place after that.
Now, as for why Voldemort was able to apparate in the Ministry, as Bandoth said, many wizards apparated there, and Mr. Weasley even said that he usually apparates to work. Clearly, if Ministry employees constantly apparate to and from the Ministry, there are no anti-apparation wards on at least the Atrium. It also appears that wizards are able to apparate directly into the Department of Mysteries.
| QUOTE |
| Black shapes were emerging out of thin air all around them, blocking their way left and right; eyes glinted through slits in hoods, a dozen lit wand tips were pointing directly at their hearts. |
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 781, Scholastic Edition
It certainly appears that these wizards are apparating, and they are definately in the Department of Mysteries. So I guess the real question is why Voldemort didn't apparate directly into the Department of Mysteries. The only explanation that I can think of is that he wanted the Death Eaters to kill Harry after retrieving the Prophecy - except Dumbledore says later on that Voldemort was searching for the knowledge of how to destroy Harry. If he needed to find this knowledge from the Prophecy, then his Death Eaters couldn't really Avada Kedavra Harry after taking the Prophecy. Maybe he didn't want any Ministry employees seeing him - but the entire Ministry was empty when Harry and the rest of the rescue mission entered. And he can't have assumed that six (or maybe he was thinking that there would only be one) kids would be able to get into the Department of Mysteries. Hey, who knows, maybe JKR just thought it would make a better storyline if Harry went to the Ministry! (Well, it was...
)
| QUOTE | ||
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 781, Scholastic Edition It certainly appears that these wizards are apparating, and they are definately in the Department of Mysteries. -- Sally-Ann Perks |
The DE's were probably just becoming un-Invisible. Notice they appear with no popping sound? The were likely lurking around the DoM invisible until Harry showed up and removed the prophecy from the shelf. Then they moved in and revealed themselves. If they weren't there to see what was going on, they wouldn't know when Harry had the prophecy in hand. All the evidence shows that the only place you can Apparate into or out of in the MoM is the Atrium.
I think Voldemort wanted Harry to go to the DoM and get the prophecy so that Harry could take all the blame for the breakin and Voldemort could remain undercover for longer. And Voldemort wouldn't want to go deep into the MoM when he couldn't just Apparate out. What if something went wrong? Sure he went to the Atrium to kill Harry, but there was no problem Apparating out of there so he had no risk of being trapped.
But Mrs. Brisbee, wizards don't always apparate with a popping sound. I don't know what makes some of them create a noise and not others, but on page 8 of Sorcerer's Stone, Scholastic Edition:
| QUOTE |
| A man appeared on the corner the cat had been watching, appeared so suddenly and silently you'd have thought he'd just popped out of the ground. |
I don't think any noise was created there. Now, we could go on forever debating about why some wizards create a sound when they apparate, and I don't really feel like thinking of explanations right now, but wizards definately do not always make a popping sound while apparating, so it's entirely possible that the Death Eaters were apparating directly into the Department of Mysteries.
Okay, true (though your example is Dumbledore, a very skilled and experienced wizard 
).
Let me offer a few other bits of evidence that suggests they were merely invisible then:
When the DE's were pursuing the kids through the DoM, none of them Apparated ahead to cut them off.
When the kids locked them out of rooms in the DoM, none of the DE's Apparated into the room; instead they needed to break the locking spell or find another door.
When the Order showed up, they all came through a door into the death room.
When Dumbledore entered the death room, it was via a door too.
When Dumbledore went to the Atrium to save Harry, he didn't Apparate, he came out of the MoM through the gold gates.
Also, when Harry went to the MoM for his trial, he never observed anyone Apparating there except in the Atrium. They all walked down hallways and took the elevators.
All the evidence points to Apparating not working inside the MoM, except in the Atrium.
).Let me offer a few other bits of evidence that suggests they were merely invisible then:
When the DE's were pursuing the kids through the DoM, none of them Apparated ahead to cut them off.
When the kids locked them out of rooms in the DoM, none of the DE's Apparated into the room; instead they needed to break the locking spell or find another door.
When the Order showed up, they all came through a door into the death room.
When Dumbledore entered the death room, it was via a door too.
When Dumbledore went to the Atrium to save Harry, he didn't Apparate, he came out of the MoM through the gold gates.
Also, when Harry went to the MoM for his trial, he never observed anyone Apparating there except in the Atrium. They all walked down hallways and took the elevators.
All the evidence points to Apparating not working inside the MoM, except in the Atrium.
The Ministry is really stupid now. Good thing Fudge is getting kicked out...
I'm pretty sure that the Ministry didn't care about high security because they think they have trustful employees... oh are they wrong!
I'm pretty sure that the Ministry didn't care about high security because they think they have trustful employees... oh are they wrong!
Ok, while I'll admit that your evidence is compelling and points to the fact that wizards can't apparate into areas of the Ministry other than the Atrium, I still think that the Death Eaters apparated into the Department of Mysteries. The definition of apparating is "appearing out of thin air" (I believe that this is what Ron says in Chamber of Secrets), and the Death Eaters are described as "emerging out of thin air." As for the Order and Dumbledore entering through doors, I would say that they probably had to look for Harry and the others instead of knowing immediately exactly which room in the Department of Mysteries they were in. And for the Death Eaters, I would think that...well, think about it this way: if you're in a mad chase following these three kids, are you really going to be thinking about apparating and cutting them off? I mean, the Death Eaters were really only concerned with getting the Prophecy from Harry; I don't really think they were willing to risk apparating on top of Harry and breaking the Prophecy.
Then there's the other thing - about Death Eaters apparating silently. When they enter the graveyard (they are definately apparating here):
Then there's the other thing - about Death Eaters apparating silently. When they enter the graveyard (they are definately apparating here):
| QUOTE |
| The air was suddenly full of the swishing of cloaks. Between graves, behind the yew tree, in every shadowy space, wizards were Apparating. |
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, page 646, Scholastic Edition
Notice that it doesn't say there were popping noises - instead, there were swishing cloaks. To me, this is further evidence that the Death Eaters can in fact apparate silently.
Ooh, more interesting debates!! **claps hands in delight** Must be the free time over the holidays, huh?
Anyway...very good arguments put forward on both sides there. I always just accepted it that Voldemort couldn't apparate directly into the DoM, but from the evidence Sally quoted earlier on, it definitely would appear as though they can. I think all this tooing anf froing about whether they always make popping noises or not is not really important....I think it's pretty much a given that they are apparating. For a starters, invisibility cloaks are supposed to be really rare, so it's highly unlikely that Voldemort has taken out a bulk buying deal with Madame Malkins for a great cost price on them for all his Death Eaters....and just as unlikely is that they all have the capability of making themselves invisible - that's also a very rare ability. Dumbledore and Voldemort can do it because they are both extremely powerful wizards, but if all the DE's can do it too, then that would rather take away from DD's and LV's abilities, wouldn't it?
So the real question would appear to be if Voldemort could apparate into the DoM, why didn't he? Probably for several reasons -
1. He was supposed to be dead. He couldn't take the risk of being seen.
2. He wanted to isolate Harry far away from Dumbledore and Hogwarts' protection by getting him into the DoM
3. He wanted to play with Harry's mind regarding Sirius - the nature of their connection is bugging him because he doesn't understand it himself
4. What kind of baddy would he be then? That's what henchmen are for!!! The chief baddy never gets his hands dirty!!! It's the oldest cliche in the book!!
As for why the DE's didn't apparate ahead to catch the kids, well....I've said before, they're not that bright, are they? There was a thread around here a while ago...Deatheaters - Idiots of idiots which was kind of amusing....
You should read Nivaya's post about the alternative....very funny.... We wouldn't have much of a story if they were that bright, would we? How would the heroes ever shine otherwise?
Must be the free time over the holidays, huh? Anyway...very good arguments put forward on both sides there. I always just accepted it that Voldemort couldn't apparate directly into the DoM, but from the evidence Sally quoted earlier on, it definitely would appear as though they can. I think all this tooing anf froing about whether they always make popping noises or not is not really important....I think it's pretty much a given that they are apparating. For a starters, invisibility cloaks are supposed to be really rare, so it's highly unlikely that Voldemort has taken out a bulk buying deal with Madame Malkins for a great cost price on them for all his Death Eaters....and just as unlikely is that they all have the capability of making themselves invisible - that's also a very rare ability. Dumbledore and Voldemort can do it because they are both extremely powerful wizards, but if all the DE's can do it too, then that would rather take away from DD's and LV's abilities, wouldn't it?
So the real question would appear to be if Voldemort could apparate into the DoM, why didn't he? Probably for several reasons -
1. He was supposed to be dead. He couldn't take the risk of being seen.
2. He wanted to isolate Harry far away from Dumbledore and Hogwarts' protection by getting him into the DoM
3. He wanted to play with Harry's mind regarding Sirius - the nature of their connection is bugging him because he doesn't understand it himself
4. What kind of baddy would he be then?
That's what henchmen are for!!! The chief baddy never gets his hands dirty!!! It's the oldest cliche in the book!!As for why the DE's didn't apparate ahead to catch the kids, well....I've said before, they're not that bright, are they? There was a thread around here a while ago...Deatheaters - Idiots of idiots which was kind of amusing....
You should read Nivaya's post about the alternative....very funny....
We wouldn't have much of a story if they were that bright, would we? How would the heroes ever shine otherwise?
| QUOTE |
| Ooh, more interesting debates!! **claps hands in delight** Must be the free time over the holidays, huh? |
After a solid month of sugar, tinsel, and wrapping paper, I'm ready to unwind with some good ol' HP debate
Anyway, as I have failed to persuade you all with previous arguements as to not being able to Apparate into the MoM, let me add a few more.
To start with, I can't agree that the black shapes emerging out of thin air all around the kids means the DEs were Apparating.
First of all, if you read the entire passage of the graveyard scene in GoF, the DEs Apparate into the graveyard all over the place, then walk over to where Voldemort is. In the DoM the DEs appear in position, surrounding the kids.
Second, even if you were to argue that they had their positions all blocked out before hand, how would they know when to Apparate? They appeared as soon as Harry had removed the prophecy from the shelf, so they must have already been there, watching.
Third, as soon as Harry gets the prophecy, Lucius Malfoy speaks from behind them (in other words, he's there), then the kids turn to see DEs emerging out of thin air with wands trained on their hearts. If they Apparated in the chances of them all just happening to pop in with perfect aim is pretty remote.
Fourth, why assume that when someone appears that they are Apparating? If they came in with the the telltail popping noise, or even swishing of cloaks sound, then okay, but that is not the case here, and we know of several other ways that DEs could remain unseen until the were ready to be seen. In SS/PS, in the chapter "The Mirror of Erised," Dumbledore says he doesn't need a cloak to become invisible. In OotP, Fred and George have perfected Headless Hats, which use an Invisibility enchantment. And Moody conceals Harry with a Disillusionment Charm. In fact, I would say a Disillusionment Charm would be be the perfect way for the DEs to lurk unseen in the shadowy Hall of Prophecies. They wouldn't need twelve Invisibility Cloaks.
Okay, now to tackle the "DEs are idiots, so they could Apparate but didn't" argument. Not only do we not see any of the DEs Apparate in pursuit of the kids, or any of the Order Apparate to the rescue, we do not see Dumbledore Apparate after Harry when he pursues the fleeing Bellatrix. Now protecting Harry is paramount; all Dumbledore's plans to defeat Voldemort depend on it, and Harry's life is at stake. But Harry has time to chase her down a hallway, take an elevator, and do battle with her in the Atrium before Dumbledore shows up. I really don't think Dumbledore is an idiot, and just forgot he could Apparate. The most likely explanation is he couldn't, and had to run and catch an elevator too.
But wait! There's more! You also get...
The Order posts guards outside the DoM door all year. A pointless endeavor if anyone can just Apparate in.
Why did Podmore try to open the door if he could just Apparate in?
The MoM posts a guard in the Atrium by the golden gates. A pointless endeavor if abnyone can just Apparate in.
I might think of more later, but it is starting to snow and I must take the four-and-a-halfling outside to play. Bye now
heh heh heh..... Okay then, I relent....very good arguments there. The thing that really swayed it for me was the Disillusionment charm. I'd forgotten about that...if you hadn't mentioned that, I might have still remained unconvinced, but now that you've offered an alternative for how the DE's could be hidden in the DoM, I can accept that. That's entirely possible, and that wouldn't make a cracking noise. However, apparating usually does make a noise - Fred and George do, Mundungus did outside Harry's house etc....
The Order posting guards is also a very convincing argument - completely pointless if people can merely apparate in, I agree, I hadn't considered that. Although I thought the guards were posted in the corridor outside the entrance to the DoM, not in the atrium?
I still say that apparation is possible in the atrium though because wizards apparate to work all the time...which means that DD could have apparated if he had wanted to. The first time we see him in the Ministry is in the atrium anyway, isn't it? Which means he probably apparated straight in, he never went down into the DoM, did he? Neither did Voldemort.
Ah, I don't know....this whole thing is making my head ache.....
Okay then, I relent....very good arguments there. The thing that really swayed it for me was the Disillusionment charm. I'd forgotten about that...if you hadn't mentioned that, I might have still remained unconvinced, but now that you've offered an alternative for how the DE's could be hidden in the DoM, I can accept that. That's entirely possible, and that wouldn't make a cracking noise. However, apparating usually does make a noise - Fred and George do, Mundungus did outside Harry's house etc....The Order posting guards is also a very convincing argument - completely pointless if people can merely apparate in, I agree, I hadn't considered that. Although I thought the guards were posted in the corridor outside the entrance to the DoM, not in the atrium?
I still say that apparation is possible in the atrium though because wizards apparate to work all the time...which means that DD could have apparated if he had wanted to. The first time we see him in the Ministry is in the atrium anyway, isn't it? Which means he probably apparated straight in, he never went down into the DoM, did he? Neither did Voldemort.
Ah, I don't know....this whole thing is making my head ache.....
Hmmm...being as stubborn as I am, I don't really want to end this debate (it's been fun ), but your last bit of evidence was really very compelling. I congratulate you, Mrs. Brisbee, for your excellent use of the Disillusionment Charm! Really, that makes a lot of sense...I hadn't thought about the timing or the fact that they all end up there in perfect formation, and with their wands pointing directly at Harry, and they're all facing in the right direction...the only way they could have done that by apparating is if they were standing in formation somewhere and pointing their wands at a spot in the center of their little circle, and then they somehow knew that Harry had picked up the Prophecy and so they disapparated at the same time...not very plausible. Your explanation of the Disillusionment Charm is much more convincing.
Yes, Dana, I'm also still convinced that Apparating is possible in the Atruim...although Dumbledore is seen in the Department of Mysteries (in the Death Room). We see Voldemort Apparating several times in the Atrium, however:
), but your last bit of evidence was really very compelling. I congratulate you, Mrs. Brisbee, for your excellent use of the Disillusionment Charm! Really, that makes a lot of sense...I hadn't thought about the timing or the fact that they all end up there in perfect formation, and with their wands pointing directly at Harry, and they're all facing in the right direction...the only way they could have done that by apparating is if they were standing in formation somewhere and pointing their wands at a spot in the center of their little circle, and then they somehow knew that Harry had picked up the Prophecy and so they disapparated at the same time...not very plausible. Your explanation of the Disillusionment Charm is much more convincing.Yes, Dana, I'm also still convinced that Apparating is possible in the Atruim...although Dumbledore is seen in the Department of Mysteries (in the Death Room). We see Voldemort Apparating several times in the Atrium, however:
| QUOTE |
| Meanwhile, the goblin and the house-elf scuttled toward the fireplaces set along the wall, and the one-armed centaur galloped at Voldemort, who vanished and reappeared beside the pool. |
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, page 813, Scholastic Edition
And again, on page 815:
| QUOTE |
| Voldemort vanished. The snake reared from the floor, ready to strike -- There was a burst of flame in midair above Dumbledore just as Voldemort reappeared, standing on the plinth in the middle of the pool where so recently the five statues had stood. |
Not to mention when he Disapparates from the Atrium on page 817:
| QUOTE |
| "'I saw him, Mr. Fudge, I swear, it was You-Know-Who, he grabbed a woman and Disapparated!'" |
So yes, I'm fairly sure that it is possible to Apparate and Disapparate into and out of the Atrium, at least.
Wow, I actually swayed people with my arguments! I must be slowly becoming more coherent from hanging out at HP sites and posting. So being a Hp fanatic must be good for my mental skills. Yes. That's it. Really.
There is no argument from me that it is possible to Apparate in the Atrium. Though I am very impressed at your ability to actually quote from the books, Sally-Anne. It does make arguments more convincing, and it's something I should work on when making mine (I just have a hard time remembering exactly where to find each thing to quote in the books, even when dead certain I read it).
There is no argument from me that it is possible to Apparate in the Atrium. Though I am very impressed at your ability to actually quote from the books, Sally-Anne. It does make arguments more convincing, and it's something I should work on when making mine (I just have a hard time remembering exactly where to find each thing to quote in the books, even when dead certain I read it).
Yes, Mrs Brisbee, your arguments were very convincing! Harry Potter sites are actually quite stimulating for the mind, don't you think?
Don't worry about not using quotes in your arguments - I sometimes find that it's helpful to read a quote if I don't remember reading something, and sometimes, as we know, JKR's wording is very important, but for this particular topic, it's not quite as crucial to have exact quotes. I just like quoting, and it's not hard for me to find quotes, seeing as I sit around with a stack of HP books next to me!
Anyway, we're sort of starting to go off topic, and as I don't want to anger the mods, I think it might be a good idea to bring the discussion back to Apparation in the Ministry...um, yes...*tries to think of something to say*
I've got it! Well...slightly related to the topic...how did Fudge and the Aurors know to go to the Ministry right as the battle was ending? I guess one of the Order could have gone to notify them, but I have to ask myself why they would have done that. Maybe they just wanted a chance for the Ministry to recognize that Voldemort was back, and it was a good opportunity...but why would the Order members leave? I mean, shouldn't they have been guarding the Death Eaters who were under the anti-Disapparation jinx in the Death Chamber?
Don't worry about not using quotes in your arguments - I sometimes find that it's helpful to read a quote if I don't remember reading something, and sometimes, as we know, JKR's wording is very important, but for this particular topic, it's not quite as crucial to have exact quotes. I just like quoting, and it's not hard for me to find quotes, seeing as I sit around with a stack of HP books next to me!
Anyway, we're sort of starting to go off topic, and as I don't want to anger the mods, I think it might be a good idea to bring the discussion back to Apparation in the Ministry...um, yes...*tries to think of something to say*
I've got it! Well...slightly related to the topic...how did Fudge and the Aurors know to go to the Ministry right as the battle was ending? I guess one of the Order could have gone to notify them, but I have to ask myself why they would have done that. Maybe they just wanted a chance for the Ministry to recognize that Voldemort was back, and it was a good opportunity...but why would the Order members leave? I mean, shouldn't they have been guarding the Death Eaters who were under the anti-Disapparation jinx in the Death Chamber?
Aw, don't worry about drifting slightly....I'm not gonna start having heart failure over stuff like that....this conversation is so interesting anyway that the last thing I'd want to do is kill it off!!! Little tip for you, BTW, if you want to use quotes - Post-it's!!! They're brilliant little things and you can get these little narrow ones that are perfect for marking pages...I'm ashamed to admit that most of my HP books have loads of these little coloured stickers in them...
Anyway, I guess the reason that the Order left was because they didn't want to appear altogether in such a place as the DoM....it would have been kind of hard to explain what they were doing there, wouldn't it? Particularly Mad-Eye and Lupin who had no business being anywhere near the Ministry.
Anyway, I guess the reason that the Order left was because they didn't want to appear altogether in such a place as the DoM....it would have been kind of hard to explain what they were doing there, wouldn't it? Particularly Mad-Eye and Lupin who had no business being anywhere near the Ministry.
he propebly did not dissaperate but they thought he did
He Aparated into the Atrium, and we know this is possible because of Mr. Weasley.
Right before they go to Harry's hearing, Harry ask's "How will we be getting there?" And Mr. Weasley says, "Normally I would aparate, but because you're underage, we'll be traveling Muggle." Not actually from the book, just paraphrasing.
So we know that it is possible to Aparate into the Atrium. I don't think that the Ministry is stupid enough to let people Aparate into the actual departments, but then Harry and his crew managed to just walk into the Department of Mysteries, which no one seems to know exactly what goes on. If it's not common knowledge, you'd think that it would have been guarded. But, alas, our dear Ministry is not the sharpest knief(sp? horrible speller...
) in the drawer, is it?
Right before they go to Harry's hearing, Harry ask's "How will we be getting there?" And Mr. Weasley says, "Normally I would aparate, but because you're underage, we'll be traveling Muggle." Not actually from the book, just paraphrasing.
So we know that it is possible to Aparate into the Atrium. I don't think that the Ministry is stupid enough to let people Aparate into the actual departments, but then Harry and his crew managed to just walk into the Department of Mysteries, which no one seems to know exactly what goes on. If it's not common knowledge, you'd think that it would have been guarded. But, alas, our dear Ministry is not the sharpest knief(sp? horrible speller...
) in the drawer, is it?
are you sure he apparated?
well, nothing to think about he's the darkest wizards of time!
he can do whatever he wants!
well, nothing to think about he's the darkest wizards of time!
he can do whatever he wants!
I think that Harry and Dumbledore's Army were able to waltz into the DOM not because the Ministry was lack in security, but because the Death Eaters were already there, having cleared the way. Voldemort's great plan needed Harry to get the prophecy, so it would make sense that while they were breaking in, the Death Eaters would take out any guards / security to ensure that Harry made it in. LV couldn't have his whole plan falling apart because Harry was caught by the ministry first.
I only read the title of this topic and I want to say, "are you guys really sure he apparated?"
I mean, he left a puddle of water on the floor. Maybe he did another way of transportation.
I mean, he left a puddle of water on the floor. Maybe he did another way of transportation.
having just re-read Ootp for a thrid time, voldemort does not actually go into into the dpearment of mystries but arives in the atrium. so technically it would not be that hrd for him to come in to the main floor would it?
Every ministry witch or wizard is able to Apparate in the Atrium, so I don't think it would be a big problem for LV to Apparate there. Besides, as some have said, he is the darkest wizard of all time. He's bound to be able to do things like that, even if there are some security measures. They may not be enough to protect the Ministry from his entry. Even DD said he's more powerful magic may not be enough to protect Harry against LV if he ever came back to full power, so if DD can't do it, who can??
Okay, you guys. If he apparated, how come he left a puddle of water?! I don't think he used the bathroom in the Atrium.
He left a puddle?? Now, that's what's weird. I must have missed that when reading that part.
Maybe he didn't leave the puddle, and the puddle was there as a result of breaking the fountain? You know, all that water, it must go somewhere, mustn't it?
If it's not beacuse of the fountain, then I really can't think how LV could leave a puddle when he disappears.
Maybe he didn't leave the puddle, and the puddle was there as a result of breaking the fountain? You know, all that water, it must go somewhere, mustn't it?
If it's not beacuse of the fountain, then I really can't think how LV could leave a puddle when he disappears.
No, it couldn't have been a fountain. It was something like he transformed into a puddle of water. Or I think it just said he LEFT a puddle of water when he left. I'm confused.
Puddle of water... It couldn't be water from the fountain in which LV re-appeared during the fight, could it?
When he appeared in the fountain, his robes are bound to get wet and drip... Guess he was too busy for a impervious charm on his robes?
MOD EDIT: You're not allowed to double-post. Please use the 'edit' button if you have anything to add or change in your previous post. Please be careful next time. I've deleted the second one and I can't keep doing it for you so please don't do it again. Here's what it said,
Posted on Jun 27 2005, 09:52 PM
Mrs Brisbee has me sold on the disillusionment charm.
Actually I think LV did not plan to arrive in MoM. The plan may have been for the death eaters to take the prophecy back to LV (with or without Harry). I don't think they were expecting 6 kids to turn up.
You can't really cover up the death of 6 school kids...
Some one must have alerted LV that things were not going according to plan, forcing him to apparate into the MoM atrium to join the fray.
BTW, LV is awfully confident about Harry's ability to travel all the way from Hogwarts to London city in such a short period of time, isn't he?
When he appeared in the fountain, his robes are bound to get wet and drip... Guess he was too busy for a impervious charm on his robes?
MOD EDIT: You're not allowed to double-post. Please use the 'edit' button if you have anything to add or change in your previous post. Please be careful next time. I've deleted the second one and I can't keep doing it for you so please don't do it again. Here's what it said,
Posted on Jun 27 2005, 09:52 PM
Mrs Brisbee has me sold on the disillusionment charm.
Actually I think LV did not plan to arrive in MoM. The plan may have been for the death eaters to take the prophecy back to LV (with or without Harry). I don't think they were expecting 6 kids to turn up.
You can't really cover up the death of 6 school kids...
Some one must have alerted LV that things were not going according to plan, forcing him to apparate into the MoM atrium to join the fray.
BTW, LV is awfully confident about Harry's ability to travel all the way from Hogwarts to London city in such a short period of time, isn't he?
Dana_skully...havent you ever read hogwarts, a history? Just kidding. No one can apparate or disapparte inside the hogwarts grounds as hermoine as pointed out numerous times to harry and ron.
MOD EDIT : Hmm someone's not read the rules yet, have they? And even if you didn't, surely you noticed the mod edit zyra made to Firenze's post above yours? Double posting is not allowed. If you want to add/edit something, all you have to do is click on that "Edit" button at the top right of your post. Your second post has been deleted, it said:
the puddle is from when dumbledore enclosed voldemort in the water from the fountain for a few minutes...then he dissapperated out of it and obviously it went all over the floor....i just read the book last night.
MOD EDIT : Hmm someone's not read the rules yet, have they? And even if you didn't, surely you noticed the mod edit zyra made to Firenze's post above yours? Double posting is not allowed. If you want to add/edit something, all you have to do is click on that "Edit" button at the top right of your post. Your second post has been deleted, it said:
the puddle is from when dumbledore enclosed voldemort in the water from the fountain for a few minutes...then he dissapperated out of it and obviously it went all over the floor....i just read the book last night.
Some argue that he is the Most powerful wizard alive. He has his ways, he got a whole battalion of Deatheaters into hogwarts.
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