In Order of the Phoenix, when the Advance Guard come to take Harry away, they use brooms because he is to young to apparate. But why can't they do side-by-side apparition like they use in Half-Blood Prince? It would definetely shorten the chapter, yes, but it would make more sense. But I think side-by-side apparition is something J.K. Rowling made up while writing Half-Blood Prince. What do you guys think?

The only thing that I can think of is that the gaurd would not have wanted the noise of 10 loud cracks after arriving at Grimuald Place. It would have drawn attention. Thats all I can think of though.

Not all wizards make a *crack* when they apparate. I believe the noise of apparation displays the level of skill that one has in apparation/disapparation. Notice that Dumbledore and Voldemort can disappear in a whirl of their cloaks, while Ludo Bagman pops in and out loudly.



I would assume that apparating into an area would make an ambush easy. With apparation there is no way to check the area before leaving, so it would be a risk to apparate to a spot if there was attack or someone waiting. It would be a huge security risk to apparate outside of the Headquarters of the Order when Muggles can see you just appear, or other wizards who may be watching. By using brooms one can survey the area before landing, making it safer overall.

But these witches and wizards would make the noise as these are not extremely powerful wizards.

You think that Kingsley Shacklebolt, Alastor Moody, Elphias Doge, Dedalus Diggle, Emmeline Vance, Hestia Jones and Remus Lupin are not powerful wizards and witches? I think each and everyone of them can apparate without any noise.


Nymphadora Tonks on the other hand may have made a noise. But according to her disapparation from the Burrow early in Book 6 (chapter: Excess of Phlegm), I would assume there is no noise when she apparates as well, seeing as there was no noise noted then.

I am not saying that these are not powerful witches and wizards, however they are not up to the caliber of LV or DD, surely there would be some sort of noise when they apparate. We dont even know half of those people at all, only by name, we do not know how powerful they are.

~I am going to say that these witches and wizard are very capable indeed. If they were not, Dumbledore would not have assigned or approved them being in the Advanced Guard in the first place.

If there would be some noise during apparating then JKR would have noted it. She does seem to note it during all the lessons the 6th years had in HBP and also when Fred and George passed their test...they weren't that accomplished. I think that the accomplished wizards and witches would be silent as they apparated. Also when Narcissa did it in Spinners End (HBP) there was a faint sound...perhaps being nervous also makes a slight noise possible? We definately know that Tonks could be considered nervous or clumsy and the guard would not have wanted to announce theire presence at Privet Drive.

Kingsley Shacklebolt- He is an Auror. I am almost positive that Aurors would need complete silence in Apparation to pass their stealth and tracking exams. Not only this, but he is quite a gifted wizard too from the way Dumbledore and the Ministry speak of him.

Alastor Moody- Perhaps the greatest Auror in his time? Again, he is an Auror and silent apparation would almost be a must.

Elphias Doge- you are right, we know little about this one.

Dedalus Diggle- Skilled enough wizard to send shooting stars over Kent after the downfall of Voldemort and also disappeared without a sound in the shop where he met Harry in SS. This was before Harry knew of the Wizarding World.

Emmeline Vance and Hestia Jones- not too much known about these two except that Emmeline was murdered... so perhaps that means she is a worthy target.

Remus Lupin - Im sure Remus Lupin can apparate silently. He does, afterall, exert a greater amount of self control then most other wizards when he becomes a werewolf and this ability to be determined must do something good when apparating.

Nymphadora Tonks- As I said in my last post, she makes no noise apparating in Book 6. (Chapter: Excess of Phlegm)



We can assume that one would need to be a decent wizard to be trusted to go on the mission to retrieve Harry so it may be wise to assume that most, if not all, of the Advance Guard are powerful witches and wizards atleast capable of silently apparating.

That makes a lot of sense to me, I mean it would be difficult to keep muggles from noticing you if you appear suddenly out of thin air with loud cracks. But it's a viable option as Dumbledore showed when he apparated himself and Harry to Horace Slughorn's house and then to the sea shore even though Harry was still "young" to apparate. If I recall correctly, I believe that all the order members (especially Harry) were disillusioned before the journey, so even if they had materialised out of thin air, it would have been difficult to spot them in the dark, especially with Mad-Eye Moody's putouter in action. The location of the headquarters could never be compromised to those who do not know of it unless told by the secret keeper. In fact it was mentioned in the Prisoner of Azkaban that Voldemort could have been standing with his nose to the window and not found out Potter's house. But definitely strange noises coming periodically in a place and people coming and going into nowhere, would have attracted attention. Perhaps the same reason why Hedwig and Pigwidgeon were not allowed their frequent hunting forays.

On the flip side, a secret mission such as this counts on tow things-secrecy and swiftness. Flying for over an hour over London with all those side trips stretching it to two hours is not the safest of things to do. To many possibilities of mishaps occurring in that span of time. In case of apparition, it would have taken seconds and since it would have been a one time event, it could have been done. I guess it's one of the things that make no sense when viewed retrospectively, but can have justifiable reasoning behind it.

Did they need an advanced wizard to watch over Harry over the summer? No.

I don't think that some of these wizards can apparate silently. Also, you are forgetting that if Harry went along with them, he would have made a very loud crack.

How can we compare travelling across England to watching a teenager at a residence? I don't think that placing inept wizards (Mundungus Fletcher) to watch over Harry does anything to prove the lack of expertise in witches and wizards in the Advance Guard.



Well, as you see, I believe otherwise. I showed you above that the bulk of the Advance Guard are shown to apparate silently by using logic and the books... the rest we can assume can as well.. we have no evidence to suggest they are unskilled wizards and therefore must give them the benefit of the doubt.



Am I forgetting? I do not think so. Side-along apparation relies solely on the wizard responsible for the apparating bit. Harry would not have made a noise if he was with a wizard or witch who can apparate silently, as we saw when Harry apparated with Dumbledore. In fact, on the way back to Hogwarts after the Cave, Harry was the one who apparated both him and Dumbledore back to Hogsmeade. If a sixteen year old, with a sick old man at his side, can apparate silently, there is no reason to believe every member of the Advance Guard couldn't as well.



All of that aside, it seems that JKR really did just make the idea of side-along apparation while writing HBP. Here is the proof:

Yea, I knew it was a mistake by JKR in the first place, its just that if there were a reason for them to not use the side-along aparation method to transport themselves, the fact that they could all create a noise when arriving is a possible reason.

To which I countered with sufficient evidence stating that in all probability the members of the Advance Guard would not make a noise when apparating. I stand firm in my belief that a 16 year old wizard, with a weakened older wizard in tow can apparate having little experience and make no notable sound.. then I think the Wizards and Witches in the Advance Guard could do the same.

~Albus

I agree, because if she had thought about side-along-apparation then she would definitely have used it then, we all know the 5th book doesn't need to be any longer than it could have been. But very good point.

The reason that they didn't Apparate was that it wasn't allowed in front of a Muggle. That would break the law.

In HBP the times were threatened. Also in OotP, but the Ministry ignored that.

I actually feel that JKR didn't decide to use side-by-side apparation was because of Harry's youth at that point in time. He ahd enver practiced, attempted, or been taught the absics of apparation. Thus they most likely did not want to splinch Harry or run the risk of anything bad happening by means of apparation.

As for JKR not having invented side-by-side apparation until HBP. I don't think that is necessarily true. She has this world developed before even writing the first book. I don't think something as big as side-by-side apparation would just be thought of until HBP. It just doesn't sound like JKR or the series.

I think it could have been just because the broom thing was way cool. I mean, I loved that bit, and it looks really great in the movie. But I don't think JK Rowling would do something like that just because it would look really good later on as a movie scene.

It could have been for another reason, though. Harry had never tried apparation in his life, and he'd only really learned anything about it in the last year of his life. On the other hand, he is an excellent flier. Flying would have made Harry more comfortable, and he might have freaked out with apparation. Harry isn't one prone to freaking, but still.

I think that Rowling likes to do things in stages! We never actually have full detail about apparating until half way through the fifth book right? Let alone side by side apparation, was that even mentioned before in the previous books?

Plus if you think about it, Rowling would not have just made a simple chapter or scene by saying, " Moody pulled harry close saying shut your eyes were going to use side by side apparation...etc" What would our reaction be then? Thats boring! She made a very interesting chapter with the complex joyride with broom sticks, we also got to know the characters better, we hear a little moody humor. ex. greenland.

And also im not an expert on apparation. But i think it did help that they all didnt apparate.... wait just had a thought! remember in the 2nd book Dobby levitates the cake? Remember that harry got in trouble for it even though he did not do it. The Ministry knows that a wizard lived at Durseys (sp?) anyways if they were to apparate from harrys aunt & Uncle, the ministry would know right? And the point was the ministry not to know anything! hahahaha i think im on to something!

maybe JKR just wanted to make the more detail as there was no riding on his firebolt in GoF and wanted to show harry riding it as early as possible

Yes, at the time the Advanced Guard was getting Harry out of Privet Drive the MoM had put an edict in place to "protect" Harry, so any magic around #4 Privet Drive was being monitored as well as any magic around Harry.

All that being said, I still don't think it would have been all that difficult to get Harry to another magical place or non-muggle occupied place and apparate from that location to one of the safe houses. It seems that they were timing the departure of the Dursley's to where they were being hidden to the time Harry et al left Privet Drive. If they could get the Dursley's somewhere safe, couldn't they have done the same for Harry? Even if his house was being watched wouldn't a disillusionment charm have worked on him to get him out unnoticed, then he could have gone with the Durley's, Hestia Jones and Dedalus Diggle, met up with the rest of the Advanced Guard and each go their own way from that spot?

I guess I'm thinking there were other ways to get Harry away from Privet Drive without the whole broomstick thing. It may not have been as action packed as the broomsticks, but I think it would have made more sense.

As for side-along-apparation being mentioned earlier in the books... was it mentioned in CoS? I know it was mentioned that Mr. Weasley apparated to the MoM and that many wizards used the floo network when traveling with underage wizards (when explaining the whole floo network to Harry), and I thought side-along-apparation was mentioned as well for traveling with underage wizards. Of course, I could be very wrong since I'm going from memory, and if this were the case then more wizards could have apparated/side-along-apparated to the QWC in GoF instead of using portkeys.

CG

the reason the couldn't apparate or use side along apparition is because it is a f orm of travel that is regulated by the ministry same with port keys and fire place all would have made the trips quicker but remember that Thickness made it illegal to use apparition port keys or fireplaces in the home because he was under the imperious curse so if they did any of those it would have alerted the ministry and the death eaters the guard wanted the element of surprise that is why the opted for brooms thestrals and sirius's motorcycle because the ministry has no control over these items as far as there use the way they do with the other forms of travel not only would the ministry be alerted to the fact that they were moving harry but also where he went which that is what the advanced guard was trying to avoid

They didnt take him in a side aparation because they didnt know who to trust. voldemort had just returned and they didnt know if had gotten hold of anyone in the ministry yet. however the biggest reason was the ministry itself. Since Harry returned from the graveyard Dumbledore has been trying to tell people Voldemort is back. Fudge had spent most of his efforts putting that claim down. Fudge also would love to have an excuse to arrest him. Since fudge has this thing for harry and dumbledore they decided it would be best to use nonmagical means.

Okay I think this thread has got a bit confused so i would like to point a few things out.

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maybe JKR just wanted to make the more detail as there was no riding on his firebolt in GoF and wanted to show harry riding it as early as possible

First of all Harry does ride his Firebolt in GoF when he is getting past the Horntail in the first task

Luv_n_Hermione, Sirius' motorcycle is not used in Order of the Phoenix, perhaps you are confusing the thread's topic with the similair event in Deathly Hallows when they are getting Harry away from Privet Drive.

I think at the time the Ministry was not keeping tags on apparation, only the Floo Network in mentioned as being monitored, so I think that perhaps it would have been possible to use Side-Along apparation. However, it may have been possible that the Ministry was keeping tags on all magic being done near or around No. 4 Privet Drive, however it would have been easy enough to walk him away from that area.

QUOTE

Fudge also would love to have an excuse to arrest him

As far as I am aware Side-Along apparation is not illegal

QUOTE

The reason that they didn't Apparate was that it wasn't allowed in front of a Muggle. That would break the law

Why would they have to do it in front of a muggle? The Dursley's were out at the invented 'All England Best Kept Suburban Lawn Competition

I refuse to believe the theory that they didn't want to use Side-Along apparation because they might have popped up in front of some muggles - who says you can't apparate with a Disillusionment charm, or under and invisibility cloak?

In truth, I think it is true that JKR didn't think about Side-Along apparation till Half-Blood Prince, seeing as it isn't mentioned till then. The excuse Lupin uses to not use apparation is that Harry is too young. But as far as i'm aware, there is no age restriction on Side-Along apparation, because, as somebody said, it rely's solely on the qualified wizard's apparating skills, so as someone said that 'they didn't want to splinch him' i think that's nonsense.

The only possible theory i can come up with is that perhaps you have to be a powerful wizard/apparator to be able to do Side-Along apparation. Isn't it only Dumbledore who we see doing it or is it in Deathly Hallows somewhere? If it is then this theory is disproved but perhaps you have to be powerful to do Side-Along apparation. If i remember correctly in the fifth book Dumbledore distances himself from Harry, so he wouldn't want to do Side-Along apparation with him. Perhaps the wizards in the advance guard are not confident using Side-Along apparation? I don't know, but in truth i think this was a slight blunder by JKR, because i think that Side-Along apparation was only invented in Half-Blood Prince, despite what everyone says.
Be interested to know your thoughts, and I hope i've explained everything xD