When the Killing Curse conjured by Voldemort rebounds on to him off of the Expelliarmus spell. The Elder Wand goes flying into the air but how did it leave Voldemort's hands if Avada Kedavra does not disarm?

I'm not sure I see where you're coming from, and I don't have the book right here, but I'll try to explain. Voldemort tries to kill Harry, but Harry manages to Disarm him and at some point, I suppose, the two spells hit each other, not unlike they did in GoF, but in this case, the AK rebounds, like it did the first time Voldemort tried to kill Harry. Hope that made any sense.

but the book said that both spells collided in mid-air, so how did Harry disarm Voldemort first?

Mod Edit: Hi and welcome to the forums! Could you please elaborate in your next posts? Short posts don’t give people much to respond to. Thanks!

The elder wand woulnt kill its true master.

Mod Edit: Could you please elaborate in your next posts? Short posts don’t give people much to respond to. You've been here long enough to know that.

ok you two seem to be a little hazy on this so ill help elaborate. the fall of voldemort was all because of miscalculations and wands. harry had won dracos wand and was the true master of the elder wand, therefore, to boot, his wand was more powerful. when their spells colided voldemorts was shot back with the power of harry's being greater thus killing him!

actually disturbed one i dont think thats quite how it worked
i believe entertainment weeklys article found here
will explain it but heres the quote from it that explains things.


so its not that harry was more powerful but that he was the owner of the elder wand so the elder wand refused to harm its master

I don't know if EW really knows what correct on that issue because the reason Harry "died" and back was because of his mother's sacrifice still living in Voldemort's blood and then Harry coming but not going to fight, like he had when he was a baby, so his mother sacrifice helped him in the end. That survival had nothing to do with the elder wand, so why should the elder wand itself protec Harry against it when it had been Harry's master the first time Voldemort tried to kill him that night, too and had not actually kept Harry from "dying." ?

I had thought the Elder Wand was just sort of returning to its master and Harry was more powerful because he was the true owner of the elder wand. But I suppose the difference might have been that Harry had cast a spell the second time Voldemort tried to attack him and that's why the elder wand protected him? If that is true then Harry would have actually survived if he tried to defend himself but so would have the part of Voldemort's soul inside him? I don't understand why the elder wand would only refuse to kill its owner if the owner was defending himself, though. I mean wouldn't the only have difference been that the killing curse didn't rebound back against Voldemort since there was no spell cast by Harry to bounce back off of? You'd think Harry would have still been protected.

Uhh...I agree with Lil_john. hahaha..and Entertainment Weekly...I guess I should elaborate so I don't get in trouble.. *cackle*.. I thought that was what had happened but I was confused so I checked here. I kept getting more confused till I read zeh ET thing. Then I got confused again when I read the last post but I won't read it throughly because then I'll get confused again [not because it didn't make sense I think, probably because you had to do some thinking, meaning that I will have to do some thinking to understand and I don't want to confuse myself if I know what happened for sure now. And I'm feeling slower then usual right now.]

ok..let me know if i have this right.
heres my take on the whole elder wand thing.

1. dumbledore gets elder wand from grindewald and becomes owner of it
2. dumbledore arranges for snape to kill him so that the power and wand would transfer to him.
3.dumbledore gets expelliarmous-ed by Draco therefore making draco the true owner of the elder wand.
4. harry defeats Draco by stealing Draco's wand, therefore becoming the owner of the elder wand
5. voldemort steals elder wand from dumbledore and thinks that he gets the power by stealing the wand(but it still seems like its just a wand to him
which leads to number 6, below)
6. voldemort kills snape thinking that it was snape who defeated dumbledore by killing him, but truly it was Draco
7. when harry and voldemort duel, the elder wand knows harry is the owner of its power, therefore when voldemort uses the AK curse and harry
uses expelliarmus, it rebounds because it would not harm its owner, which is harry
(theoretically i believe harry could have used any sort of spell here, but it kinda feels right that he uses expelliarmus)

and so as for the confusion caused by the elder wand killing harry when harry walks to voldemort int he forest..
im pretty sure its because he went without fighting it. he walked to his death and didn't fight back.
and i think the elder wand only recognized harry because the wands have the connections not the people themselves.
like with priori incantatem its the wands that recognize the dual cores, so i think the elder wand recognized harry through the wand he was using which he won from Draco.

let me know what you think and if i have anything wrong

I realise why the Elder Wand's spell rebounded back on to Voldemort but when it hit Harry's Disarming spell, did it cancel it out? And how did Voldmort's wand leave his hand when Avada Kedavra is not a Disarming spell?

ok wow this topic has confused me so much, i think we'v all gone into a bit too much detail?!

i think what venon wants to know is simply why the elder wand went flying out of voldemorts hand and i think its because harry used the disarming spell on him and also because the elder wand could not attack its owner therefore it made harrys expelliarmus more powerful then AK and that led to the wand being thrown out of his hand and his own spell rebounding onto him

i dont know if that made sense or whether it was correct, its just how i see it

So when the two spells hit and collided in mid-air, the Killing Curse hit the Disarming spell like in GOF and then turned away from Harry's spell, so both the Killing Curse and the Disarming spell hit Voldemort at the same time?

ok iv just re-read that bit in the book and it says



so i think that maybe it wasnt even expelliarmus that hit him, i think it was just AK that did it in the end

So how did the Elder Wand fly out of his hand?

ermm im not quite sure on that i just think because it would not kill or attack harry as he was the master of the wand therefore it released itself from voldemorts hand and went to harry?

or maybe expelliarmus had something to do with it and the fact that voldemorts spell had rebound onto him? im not quite sure its all a bit confusing!

ooh and iv just rememberd, you know in the chamber of secrets, and ron tries to use his broken wand to curse malfoy but it rebounds onto him - i guess it was sort of like that? just slightly different because the Elder Wand is more powerful and only works for its rightful owner... i dont know whether thats complicated things more?

Well one question I have is that if you kill or "defeat" the last owner of the elder wand whoever killed that person should be the new master. Therefore in theory at least Voldemort should have been the rightful owner of the Elder Wand and the curse shouldn't have backfired but I just accepted the piece of writing for what it was because I was kinda disappointed that Harry and Voldemort didn't have a big battle or so before Harry defeated him and I wanted to see Harry use AK. The only time you really see a duel with Voldemort is with Dumbledore so you could really see why Voldemort is the greatest wizard in history but to die from his own curse.

Isn't it simple? When Voldemort was hit by the AK curse, the curse hit him and LV let go of the wand when the curse hit him.

Well... here's my understanding of the last part.... remember harry says that would the elder wand recognise that it's previous owner was disarmed.. (i.e. Dumbledore was disarmed by draco in the tower..) and now harry's using draco's wand the same wand that had disarmed the elder wand so when harry casts the disarming spell and riddle the killing curse.. The elder wand recognizes the wand( then draco's wand) and hence it's actual master....And the elder wand can't kill it's own master... therefore the killing curse rebounds and the elder wand willfully gets disarmed and reaches it's true master....

remember wandlore is very deep and complicated

The first time Voldemort tried to kill Harry, his spell rebounded and hit him instead, but he didn't die. So why would he die this time, when Harry reflected his "Avada Kedavra" with "Expelliarmus"?

Another things is that Harry shouldn't have been the true owner of the Elder Wand because look back to Gregorovitch he was the true master and Grindelwald stole it from him which means Grindelwald wasn't the true master and this should the reason why Dumbledore could defeat him in their duel and if Grindelwald was the true master Dumbledore shouldn't have been able to beat him. Anyways Dumbledore wasn't the true master since he neither killed or defeated Gregorovitch who should have been the true master so it goes on that nobody should have been the true master and I think Voldemort killed Gregorovitch correct me if I'm wrong which means that Voldemort should have been the true master and if Gregorovitch died of natural causes then the Elder Wand has no real master and the spell shouldn't have rebounded. Also if you could just steal the wand and become its master like Grindelwald supposedly did then when Voldemort stole it from Dumbledore's grave he should have been the true master. So their is a HUGE boo boo in the story.

@firebat:

Because all of the horcruxes had been destroyed. When Voldemort tried to kill Harry the first time, he had horcruxes to protect his existence.

@Sumdian:

Theft is the same as disarming, which is what is required to gain control of the Elder Wand, not defeat. You have to use the word disarming literally (well, quasi-literally) in the context of the Elder Wand.

@Venom (Original Poster):

AK rebounded when hit by the Expelliarmus, but the Expelliarmus continued along its path; the AK did not deflect it.

To CHRTH

Thank you...I was getting very confused lol. I knew I knew the answer but I was getting so muddled lol I've only read the book once but i've started to read it a second time. I figure once i've got it read a couple of times it should be crystal clear.

The battle at the end is still a big blur but i'm pretty sure you've got it right on. Will have to do some re-reading and make sure Thanks for the clarification.

To KAUSHIKVIN

You've got it spot on. Wandlore is very very complicated lol. Will we ever understand? no probably not lol

Well I dont think thats quite true because Voldemort should have been the true master when he stole it from Dumbledore's tomb and even if what you say is right then how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald if Grindelwald couldn't be defeated.

Sumdian:

Voldemort could not be master of the Elder wand by simply taking the wand from DD's tomb. The wand had to be earned, by defeating the master. Stealing it does not make you the master.

Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in their duel, therefore making Dumbledore the master of the Elder wand. Why do you say he couldn't be defeated, out of curiosity?

Yeah Voldemort did still steal the wand from dumbledore's tomb... quite right but he can't be the master because of the fact that the wand had already recognised it's new master and that was Draco Malfoy because if u remember in HBP... in the end draco actually disarms dumbledore and his wand flies out..... can't exactly pinpoint the page.. sorry but yeah so draco was the new master but then harry owerpowered draco and took his wand by force which makes him the new master of the Elder Wand.... and hence the wand held by voldemort recognised the wand held in harry's hand as the wand that actually had disarmed it.. so it couldn't kill it's master and the killing curse rebounded on voldemort....

and as for your question on how dumbledore could defeat grindelwald... i think just possesing the wand and being it's true master won't make u the powerful... The wand's only as powerful as it's master is .... and in a real duel with equal skill the one with the elder wand might have the edge... dumbledore was far more skilled and knew more than any other wizard of his time including voldemort.

On the night when dumbledore died he was weak and wasn't even looking at draco malfoy when he disarmed him..... he was already dying...

correct me if i'm wrong though... cheers

Several times it was pointed out that interactions between Voldemort and Harry were different than expected. Example: While Hermoine could break Harry's wand, it was equal to the task when it went up against Voldemort's wand in GOF. I think that anything between Lord Vodemort and Harry would have a 'not quite expected' outcome. We don't know that much about the Elder Wand other than it can defy death for it's master. Perhaps that is where the difference lies. Harry was master of the wand at that time. He had a unique tie to Voldemort. And being the master, the killing curse enabled him to defy death one more time.

Also don't forget: Harry allowed himself to be killed to protect everybody from Voldemort, just like Lily died to protect Harry. Harry's sacrifice extended the protection to himself, as evidenced by the painless Cruciatus. Even if Harry hadn't cast the Expelliarmus, it's possible that Voldemort's AK would have been impotent, or at least non-killing.

true.... that's quite rite... thanks for pointing that out..

But back to the Question at hand. . .

In my mind, it is simple why the wands reacted how they did, as explained many time before, Harry was the rightful owner of the Elder Wand. Thus, the Elder Wand recognised its master's spell when they hit, and rebounded itself from Harry's Expelliarmus and killed Lord Voldermort. He died because he had no Horcruxes anymore. In my mind, the wand fell from LV's hand due to the impact of his AK47 (JK Avada Kedavra lol) Thus, the wand is set off hurtiling through the air, and is mere fluke that it flies in Harries Direction. I assume its just for better effect. It puts a better image in my mind that it would, if the wand was left concealed in LV's hand.

Just to mention, i was rather dissapointed with LV's death, i was getting so giddy and excited when Harry was contradicting LV all over. And i thought it would end in either a duel of Unforgivable Curses, or the whole school shooting waves of spells at LV and some idiot like Colin Creevey to be the one to actually hit LV. HeHe.

the elder wand didn't really work well for voldy so he tried to kill harry and harry to disarm him and harry's curso won and the elder wand went to harry's hand its true master because the wand chooses the wizard and uncle voldy was dead

I think it is understandable that Draco became the master of the Elder Wand after disarming Dumbledore, but I do now see how Harry became the master of the Elder Wand by stealing Malfoy's wand. This would indeed make Harry the master of Draco's wand, but not all of the wands that Draco is the master of, just the one Harry stole. So the way that I see it, Draco should still be the master of the Elder Wand. I noticed that this specific question hasnt been assesed yet, so I might have missed something in the book, let me know.

I'm not so sure that much of the elder wand makes alot of sense. First of all how did Dumbeldore defeat Grindelwald if the whole point was that the elder wand would never lose a battle for the rightful owner? I guess it could be argued that Grindelwald stole the wand so it wasnt really his... so he could be defeated... but i'm actually a little confused on this point. but it could be why Voldemort couldnt use it...

Second, why would expelliarmus make someone the rightful owner of the elder wand? i thought the wandlore said that you had to kill the previous owner. And maybe i'm just being dense but draco didnt really defeat dumbeldore... he simply disarmed him. plus he never actually held the elder wand, and still has his wand when harry steals his wand. so harry is the owner of draco's old wand not the elder wand. Personally i think that this is a little to hazy... and i'm not so sure taht I believe that Harry is actually the owner of the elder wand. maybe its because i dont quite buy the explaination or maybe i just dont understand

Finally, just a question... was anyone else dissappointed that the final battle wasnt anything more that harry saying expelliarmus?? i mean I never really expected harry to be able to use avada kedavra but seriously? it was a little bit of a let down for me... anyone else?

He had an unbeatable wand?

I do believe that it is because LV and Harry sent spells at the same time LV did a killing curse and Harry did a disarming curse. Harry was the real owner of the elder wand and not LV so the elder wand didn't want to kill its owner so it flew into the air and the killing curse back fired on LV so he died and Harry lived because he caught the wand because he is a seeker. I hope that explains it better.

I wasn't disappointed by Harry's defeat of Voldie. I always knew that he was too noble to use Avada Kedavra. And after everyone sneering at his use of the disarming charm, it was poetic justice for Voldie to have been defeated twice by such a seemingly insignificant spell. That may have been the perfect ending of any book I have ever read. Se gap lai nhe.

But the wand is not unbeatable. The fairy tale says so -- but the fairy tale also said they met Death--, and Ron repeats it ad nauseum, but Ollivander, who knows of such things, never refers to it that way, nor does Dumbledore. 'Immensely powerful', yes. But not unbeatable.

Venom oldy cursed harry with avada kedavra but harr threw his expelliarmus and his curse was stronger because the elder wand didn't work well for LV so he was disarmed by harry's expelliarmus

I agree with your disappointment but you did miss some of the points in the book that said disarming is basically the same thing as defeating so I give it to Draco that he is supposedly the wands master but lets look back to when Gregorovitch had the wand Harry just saw an image of Grindelwald in the night jumping out of the window which means Grindelwald stole the wand and neither defeated him nor disarmed him therefore not being the owner of the elder wand. So when Dumbledore defeated him he shouldn't have been the true owner of the wand because Gregorovitch should have still been the wand owner. But lets say for a second that Grindelwald some how is the true master of the wand how did Dumbledore win a 1v1 duel against Grindelwald if he had an unbeatable wand. So going back to my original point is that Gregorovitch was still the wand owner and Voldemort killed him if I didn't read correctly which would make him the true owner of the Elder Wand and therefore should have killed Harry or at least had a big duel with like a quarter of the people that were at Hogwarts before dying.

-sighs-
OKAY, so I'll start at the beginning.

Gregorovitch had the Elder wand. Grindelwald challenged Gregorovitch, and he won. The Elder Wand is not unbeatable, it's an immensly powerful wand. Grindelwald probably disarms Gregorovitch and runs away with it. Seeing as disarming is the same as defeating for the Elder Wand, Grindelwald was the rightful owner of the Elder Wand. Yes, harry's vision only shows Grindelwald in the night jumping out of a window with the wand, but that's only what Harry saw. There could have been much moe to that. Then, Dumbledore challenges Grindelwald and defeates him. You don't have to kill someone to defeat them. So, Dumbledore is owner of the Elder Wand. Dumbledore creates a plan for Snape to kill him so that Snape would be the rightful owner of the Elder Wand. BUT Draco gets to Dumbledore before Snape does and disarms him[Dumbledore], which makes Draco the rightful owner of the Elder Wand. When Harry defeats Draco and takes his wand, the wand[Draco's] recognizes Harry as it's new owner, thus when the Elder Wand comes into contact with Draco's wand, the owner of Draco's wand is the owner of the Elder Wand, which is Harry.

As to why the Elder Wand flew into the air when the AK curse rebounded off of Expelliarmus(sp?), either the Elder Wand was going to it's true master, or Harry's Expelliarmus curse hit LV along with AK curse.

Hope this helps

The Elder Wand passed its allegiance down through those he won it from its previous owner, just like any other wands. It passed from the Peverell brother, to Gregorovitch, to Grindelwald, to Dumbledore, to Draco (although Voldemort assumed it had passed to Snape, a mistake which led to his downfall), and finally to Harry. When Harry and Voldemort's spells met, the Elder Wand responded to its true master, Harry, and refused to kill him, so that Voldemort was disarmed and his curse rebounded against him.

Ditto, ditto, ditto. DH had ups and downs. The first half could been called "Harry Potter and the Extended Camping Trip." Then it got pretty good - the Battle of Hogwarts and Harry walking into the Forbidden Forest = GREAT storytelling. And then, the series ends with a resounding THUD.

No great showdown between Harry and Voldamort - just two spells and a lot of silly "wand lore" to try to explain Voldamort's downfall. DUMB. And what about the great showdown between Neville and Bellatrix? Nevermind - Mrs. Weasly had a much bigger axe to grind, right?

What a dissapointing end to a great series. Is anybody actually satisfied with the way this story ended?

maybe both curses hit him or when he fell the wand just went flying

Voldemorts fall was the most anti-climac thing I've read in years Sure he's been killing people for ages until this duel, but they speak for pages and then when they finally battle he ends up killing himself within a second? Just did not work for me. I just wondered how it was possible to be that quick And then the book ending sucked and everything went by too fast

well i'm new here but this is how i got the end... so we all now know that harry is the master of the elder wand. that explains why he wasn't killed by the killing curse,and why has the curse killed voldemort instead.but it all ended fast because harry was probably the person who could cast best expelliarmus spell in the world, because it has saved his life earlier.we have many examples of people being masters in performing 1 spell (Mulciber – Death Eater, Imperius Curse specialist,Lockhart-memory charms)and i think expelliarmus was harrys best spell so it's normal he used his best spell to save his life and disarm Voldemort... hope you understand what mean

To become the rightful owner of a wand, one does not have to kill. In the case of the Elder Wand, Mr. Lovegood states that it often comes down to killing but it does not always have to be. The owner of the wand just has to be overpowered and not have the wand stay in their possession. Thus, when Draco disarmed DD he actually mastered the Elder Wand. After DD gets disarmed, Draco is the amster of both his wand and the Elder Wand. Then Harry defeats Draco and takes rightful ownership of all three wands.

Well here's how i understand it. I'll start at the beginning.

I am not sure if grindelwald stole the elder wand or actually somehow mastered it from greoravitch.

Lets just say that he stole it cuz thats how it seems but we are not sure.
My theory is that even tho the person dumbledore was deuling was not the true master, when dumbledore defeated its posesser in a deul, it passed its allegieance to the winner.

I do not think that it is actually an unbeatable wand or else it would not have been able to pass on from one wizard to another. In the tale of the three brothers its says that it is unbeatable but i think it says somewhere in the book that basicly that childrens tale is a legend BASED on something that really happened.

So, it passed from gregoravitch to grindelwald to dumbledore and then to draco.

Im pretty sure that when harry talks to ollivander aboput the wands he says that to a wand to pass its allegieanca to another you do not have to kill just to defat and in a way disarming is defeating. So when draco disarmed dumbledore, he became the true master.

Now, I think that even tho draco was not in possession of the elder wand when harry disarmed him, he was still the master and he was still defeated so every wand that draco was the master of when harry disarmed him passed its alliegience to harry.

Voldemort belived that snape was the master of the elder wand , so he killed snape to become the true master but snape wasnt ever the master of the elder wand.


Now.
It says in the book that harry's expelliamus and voldemorts avada kadavra collided in mid air and voldemorts own curse killed him. My guess is that the force of harry's spell caused voldemort to also be disarmed.

I do not belive that the wand flew into harry's hand because he was the master but because he disarmed the posseser.

As we've seen in other battles the disarmer almost always catchs the disarmed's wand.

I do not belive that harry was not killed because he was the master of the elder wand but his expelliamus caused a sort of shield as it collided with voldemorts curse.

Thats my theory! Correct if Im wrong!!

I think that the elder wand is only unbeatable when you fight back. so maby when dumbledore and grindelwald were dueling, maybe grindelwald gave up and surrendered. But if that was the case, then wouldn't voldy have became the master if harry just let him kill him when he was in the forest?

or the reason that the wand flew out of LV's hand is the fact that he died and then fell over so that while he was falling down the muscles in his hand loosened and the force sent the wand flying

it probably had nothing to do with magic at all


and in response to the post before me, i dont know how DD could have won, cause it never says anything about grindelwald giving up, but if grindelwald had an unbeatable wand how would DD have been able to beat it? That just really confused me

I think it flew out of his hands and tried to get to its true master. Since the wand didnt become Voldemorts it would never have liked being in voldemorts possesion. therefore when voldemort was hit with his rebounding curse he would have been hit with both Avada Kadavra and Expeliarmus. so the wand left him and went to Harry.

I think the wand flew out of LV's hand because of the following possible reasons:

1. To make the scene more dramatic

Instead of making the wand lying into Voldemort's hand, Jo wants the scene to be more movie-like and refers to the head of Nagini spinning across the ceiling.

2. The elder wand returning to its master

The elder wand might have flown out of Voldy's hand because it doesn't recognize him.

3. The Muggle way



The last reason is physics, i guess. Although i haven't took it yet but i think when you slip, your entire body weight is off balance so you cannot control your hand properly and the reaction caused the wand to fly out of Voldemort's hand.