On page 383-384 of the US paperbook edition, there is a description of the Confusing & Befuddlement draught. This received no other attention in the book & I haven't seen it discussed on any other posts. Sorry if it is somewhere else.

The description of the draught is -- " These plantes are moste efficacious in the influencing of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness..." Usually JKR doesn't provide thie type of description without a reason. There is no description as to the duration of the effect.

My thoughts are that it was possible that someone was using this on Harry to create his fowl temper throughout the book, which opened him up to Voldemort's legilimency. Or another possibility was that someone was using it on Sirius to cause him to be reckless.

If it was Sirius, then Snape would definitely be the candidate to feed it to him -- he had access to Sirius, and he definitely despises him; plus, Snape is an excellant potions maker.

If it was Harry, then I am not sure who would be giving it to him. Snape is the logical candidtate, but I tend to believe Hermione who trusts him. Any other candidate would have to have access (direct or indirect) to Voldemort so that they could receive instructions -- this is becasue Voldemort was not aware that Harry was open to his mind until Arthur Weasley's attack at Christmas. This leaves Malfoy as the next best candidate.

Thoughts?

no offence but i don't think Harry or Sirius were acting under the infuence of any potions etc

Harry's tantrums etc are just part of him growing up and finding out about himself

I have given this a lot of thought over the past few days, as I am rereading OotP, and (in true conspiracy theory fashion) I am now sure that Sirius is under the influence one of these draughts, and that Harry probably is.

The passage on the confusion & befuddlement draught is out of place in the story unless it has more meaning than an isolated detail -- JKR doesn't do this in her stories -- somebody must be under the influence.

The reason that I am sure that Sirius has become affected is that his mood and temper clearly change after visits from Snape. JKR would have us believe that it is because Sirus hates Snape, but the mood changes are much stronger and last much longer than you would otherwise expect. For instance, when Snape visits at Christmas time to tell Harry he is going to be instructed in Occlumency, Sirius becomes so angry at Snape's taunts that Harry has to break them up. After this even Sirius spends several hours a day alone with Buckbeak for the remainder of the holiday. Dumbledore tells us at the end of the book that Sirius was mature enough to tolerate Snape's taunts (unless of course ...)

In addition, Sirius is 'reckless' at various times throughout the book. ex. he goes with the group to the Hogwarts express as a dog -- Snape knows this & taunts him for it. More importantly, during the duel scene with Bellatrix, Sirius banters with her recklessly.

This would, of course, mean that Snape is responsible for Sirius' death, even though he wasn't holding the wand. Keeping in mind that Sirius tried to kill Snape while they were in school, I believe this is a very likely explanation.

Harry is a much more difficult question. He does appear to be under the influence of the draught. Read the passage during the History of Magic exam, and notice his inability to focus. JKR would have us believe this was because he had a few hours sleep -- but his confusion is pretty extreme. This is the same time he is open to Voldemort's influence. After rereading the book, there are many occassions when Harry is exposed to the confusion & recklessness that opens his mind up to Voldemort. Time and space matter in magic & Voldemort should not be able to affect Harry from the distance -- but he does!

The question I have is who is exposing Harry to the appropriate herbs. During the scene where Harry looks into Snape's pensieve (which is described as 'reckless'), Snape seems genuinely angry, as though he did not expect this behavior. The same is true when Snape discovers that Harry has 'seen' the Department of Mysteries. Contrast this with the Sirius confrontation at Christmas -- then Snape is not angry at all (he epxects it.)

I have reread the passages to see who would have access to Harry (other than Snape), and it is not clear at all. This person would have to have access to Voldemort in order to report what is going on & take out the actions that Voldemort requires. (i.e. he told Voldemort about the dream where Arthur Weasely is attacked.) The most common candidates are the other Gryffindor fifth-year boys (who are with him when he dreams at night). This would narrow down to Seamus Finnegan. I can't believe Ron or Neville would have done it, and Dean Thomas' parents are muggles. Alternatively, a house-elf (Kreacher?) could have apparated, similar to Dobby, but this seems unlikely.

I just can't believe that Malfoy has the access to Harry that is needed to sneak the necessary herbs into his food.

I wonder about Winky?

This is an extremely well-thought-out theory! There is one tiny hole - Dumbledore says that time and space don't matter with Voldemort and Harry because they are linked by the scar. Then again, should we believe Dumbledore on this one? I don't think that we should always believe Dumbledore...so it is possible that he's just making his own hypothesis about why Voldemort is able to access Harry from so far away.

However, I think that sometimes, JKR introduces things well in advance so that we are aware of them, but we haven't paid enough attention to them, and we happen to forget about them at the moment when they are most important to remember. This could be one of those cases - if one of the characters isn't under the influence of a Befuddlement Draught now, we should keep our eyes open for symptoms of this potion in the future.

It may be true that time & space do not matter between Harry & Voldy -- I missed that detail from Dumbledore, but I would wager that Harry's emotional state does matter.

I am starting from the assumption that JKR would not have introduced the Confusion & Befuddlement draughts without a reason. If she wanted it to be a decoy, then I believe she would have introduced more 'misleading' clues (ex. "Hey Seamus! Why are you dropping something into my food.") The confusion & befuddlement draught clue is similar to the clue when Snape is teaching in POA, and discusses werewolves.

During the O.W.L.'s, Harry is very lucid until the History of Magic exam (where he seems a mess). The only actions that take place between these two very different states of mind is that he studied & ate breakfast alone. (He stayed up very late the night before discussing the Hagrid attack with Ron & Hermione.)

Winky, being a house elf, could easily have slipped some inappropriate herbs in his food. Plus, Winky is predisposed to helping the person who 'caught' Barty Crouch, Jr., finally she would definitely punish herself for her conflicts of interest (in her case using Butterbeer.) After further thought, she is my prime candidate.

This is an interesting theory. There is a possibility that a character was under the influence of a Confusing or Befuddlement Draught in "Order of the Phoenix," but I feel extremely confident that we should be watching out for it in future books. In my opinion, the most compelling evidence that supports the theory that Harry has been "confused" by a potion is the context in which the properties and effects of the Draught were described. I have typed out the entire quote here (pg. 383, American hardback - it took me quite a while to find!):

I first read this theory a couple of weeks ago when realbullet originally posted it, but I wasn't convinced so I didn't say anything then, but after reading that quote that Anthony posted, I'm not so sure....it does seem plausible, doesn't it?

If it is true, and it certainly seems to be in keeping with JKR's style to do something like that, then someone would have to be slipping it into Harry's food or drink. Who would have access?

The house elves, the Gryffindors...no one else really. Someone would notice if someone from one of the other houses was hovering around the Gryffindor table. It would depend, I guess, on whether the food actually appears on an individual's plate or whether the food appears in large dishes and everyone helps themselves.

If the latter were the case, then it can't be the house elves because they couldn't be sure who was getting the drugged food. If the former were the case, however, then it could very well be one of the house elves - perhaps acting on behalf of someone else?

Slipping something into his water would be easier......but you'd still need to get access to it.

I don't think it's Winky because she was too soused to be capable of doing anything really....

And then you have to look at the reasons why someone would want to make Harry hot-headed. Who would have something to gain? The Ministry for one, to discredit him and get him thrown out of Hogwarts, in which case it could have been Umbridge (unlikely....if it was her, it would have been revealed by the end of OotP because I think she's done all she's going to do now) and the Death Eaters for another...for the same reasons - discrediting him.

Everything points towards there being a traitor somewhere......

"I don't think it's Winky because she was too soused to be capable of doing anything really...."

That is what I believed -- until I thought that the reason Winky may be drinking heavily is because she knows she is doing something wrong.

The only Gryffindor who fits as a traitor is Seamus. He was strongly against Harry through most of the OotP. Then his first attendance at Dumbeldore's Army turns out to be the last one. This is why I considered him the possible culprit. ... I just couldn't believe it; plus I feel confident Harry was fed the draught during his breakfast prior to the History of Magic exam, and he was eating alone.

Prior to the History of Magic exam? I thought he had been given the Draught a while before then. As Harry recognizes himself during the scene in which he is reading about the Draught, his behavior fits most of its effects. This scene was obviously before the O.W.L.s, and if J.K. Rowling was already drawing attention to Harry's symptoms of "Befuddlement" at this point, he probably was already under the influence of the potion.

On another thread in the Book Six/Seven forum, Dana suggests that Tonks is a traitor and is the one who is giving Harry the Befuddlement Draughts. We should probably keep the whole "Tonks as a traitor" idea to the other thread, but there is a quote from that thread that I found interesting and thought was applicable to this discussion:

You know, I actually did consider Seamus when I was thinking about this theory, but in another way - I thought that perhaps it might go towards the argument that it might be one of the house elves.

If it is one of the house elves (which is pretty likely...but if it is, it's unlikely she/he is acting alone...I still think it's Tonks... ) then they couldn't be sure which one of them would be getting the drugged food...hence Seamus' rather out-of-character attack on Harry ...JUST AFTER the feast.....mmm....kind of suspicious, huh? Seamus seemed rather hot-headed himself there...possibly because he ate some drugged food too?

He ate steak and kidney pie and teacle tart during the feast..it doesn't say what Seamus ate, but it does say in Chp 11 that, after the feast, Harry was "feeling pleasantly drowsy now"....very suspicious....

Anthony Wrote: "Whether Tonks is a traitor is open to debate, but the point is, there are several instances earlier in "Order of the Phoenix" in which someone could have slipped Harry a bit of potion in his food or drink. I don't know... I just sort of thought that it happened earlier in the story than during the O.W.L.s.....

I'm thinking Harry was slipped the Confusion & Befuddlement herbs several times during the book. One of the times was when he was reading about the draughts from his potion session. Another time was during the OWL's.

During his OWL's, Harry is very lucid, but during the history of magic exam, he can't concentrate at all. Look at the text during the exam & note the similarities between the text that you cited above. Sometime between Hagrid's attack & the History of Magic exam, Harry was slipped the draught. Very little occurs during this time -- they talked late into the night about the attack in the Gryffindor common room, Harry slept, he tried to study, and he ate a meal (alone, as I recall.)

Since he ate the meal alone, I suspected a house elf, and Winky makes the most sense. Tonks is definitely a potential suspect that I had not considered until Dana mentioned it.

Also, don't forget, Tonks is a Metamorphmagus, which would make it VERY easy for her to disguise herself and give Harry the potion without him realizing it was her. She's actually a likely candidate - a bit over-eager to help out, which could be viewed as a cover so that nobody will suspect her. She's also new to the Order, meaning that she wasn't a member during the first war. History shows us that we can't even trust our closest friends - look at what happened with Pettigrew. And Tonks just...isn't...as close to the rest of the Order as, say, Lupin, who was believed to be a traitor the first time around. I wonder if Tonks can change her appearance to make herself look like a house-elf...?

I guess it could be Winky and that you could view her alcoholism as her way of punishing herself for what she's doing, but I think that might be a little deep an issue for a children's book - not the alcoholism itself, of course, but more the psychology involved, you know?

I've always had slight suspicions about Dobby, but it's fairly unlikely to be him. There might be other house-elves we haven't been introduced to yet though.

How's this for an idea.....

Tonks is related to the Blacks, right? Everyone presumes that the only one Kreacher feels any loyalty towards is the Malfoys, right? Well, we don't know that for a fact...we've never heard that from Kreacher, to the best of my knowledge. Maybe he left to go to the Malfoy's when Sirius told him to get out because he was taking full advantage to give all the information he could to Narcissa, but if there was another Black family member with dark leanings.....like Tonks, for example, and she gave Kreacher permission to leave the house to go to Hogwarts (and we already know that house-elves can apparate inside Hogwarts grounds), then it could be Kreacher doing the poisoning.

The problem is that if Tonks was disguising herself as a house-elf, she wouldn't have the same abilities of apparation, would she? How would she get in and out without being seen?

Dana wrote: "I guess it could be Winky and that you could view her alcoholism as her way of punishing herself for what she's doing, but I think that might be a little deep an issue for a children's book - not the alcoholism itself, of course, but more the psychology involved, you know?"

This is not so much a way of punishing herself, as it is a way of escaping her interpersonal conflicts. Complex psychology notwithstanding, she is drinking heavily for her conflicted feelings -- the only real question is -- do we (the readers) really understand the depth of the conflict?

I can't believe it is Kreacher -- the text for the Confusion & Befuddlement draughts occurs before Sirius orders him "Out!". Tonks may be a possibility, but she can't apparate on Hogowarts.

Here's a truly demented theory that shows just how twisted I can think -- what if Tonks is really a house elf, and being a metamorphmagi is actually one of their undiscovered powers?? She could belong to one of the deatheaters, and sent to Hogwarts as a student, right after Voldy was incapacitated -- undercover all along.

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Okay that may be a tad farfetched. Don't take that one seriously.

**chuckles** Yeah, allrighty then, mate, I won't.... And people think I'm crazy....I dunno....

Seriously though, it doesn't really matter where the text about the befuddlement draughts occurs - it could still be Kreacher. My theory about Tonks would involve her being a traitor from the beginning...Kreacher would have obeyed her all along and if she asked him to apparate to Hogwarts to drug the food at any time, then he would have done it. Kreacher often disappeared for long periods of time and no one knew where he was - and because no one particularly cared about him, no one bothered to look.

JKR, speaking through Hermione, is practically screaming about the importance of the house elves. Short of bashing us all over the had with a copy of OotP and giving us serious concussion, I don't know what else she can do!!

And yes, it is possible that Winky drinks just to numb her thoughts...that's why most people who have problems do it, isn't it?

I think that you guys are over-complicating this issue. According to Occam's
Razor "The simplest answer is usually the right one," and although this may feel contrary to the general tone and plot twists of the Harry Potter series, I believe in this instance it is applicable and correct.

While I believe that "the Drought" will play a larger role in future books (something that had not occurred to me until this thread), I think Harry is not being poisoned or having his judgement impaired by some outside source. I mean is it really so unfathomable that Harry is tempermental and moody because he is an adolescent going through some very challenging hardships and ordeals all while trying to establish his own identity? I don't think Harry's imperfections and outbursts need to be justified with a convoluted complicated theory involving stealthy spies who are able to get close enough to Harry AND Sirius only to give them both befuddlement droughts. I think it is more likely that Harry is just a kid going through a difficult phase.

Regarding Sirius, I think if anything can be attributed to his upset state, I believe it is more likely to be alcohol (what do you think he does during those "long hours alone with Buckbeak"?)(Remember we only see Harry's perspective Sirius, could have been a closet drinker unlike the openly drunk Winky). Furthermore, Sirius is spending terrible, long, lonely months by himself confined to a house where the resident house elf, Kreacher, is openly hostile to him and where the portraits of former residents/(his relatives) actively berate and yell at him and in general try to make him feel as unwelcome as possible. Take in to account that Sirius was very adventurous and this is lack of freedom is even more devastating, especially after the tropics that he stayed in that were alluded to in book IV (remember the tropical birds).

I think Sirius is just lonely and his mood tends to fluctuate because of his unhappiness.

Last thing: I must recommend that each of you visit www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse This guy is a genius. Read his essays.

Ah yes....good old Occam's Razor....or as my friend Fox Mulder used to say, 'Occam's theory of no imagination'.....

Yeah, we probably are looking too deeply into it, and maybe there's nothing there....but we're very stressed people right now, desperately analysing the books in the hopes that we can extract some kind of potential plot line for HBP from them.... The waiting is killing us softly.....

I agree that a lot of Harry's outbursts are perfectly understandable considering everything he's been through and I've argued extensively on the subject, particularly in the early parts of the 'Changeling Hypothesis' thread, not to mention defending Harry when he's been bashed for being a ratty little *bleep*....I love the (fictional ) kid to bits, I really do....and I totally understand. But, at the same time, I can also see realbullet's points and I think they're very valid, as I've already said ^^ up there somewhere.

I couldn't agree more about Sirius too.....it was more Harry that I was arguing around really. But yeah, Sirius was doing some drinking...again, understandably. The poor guy must have been unbearably lonely and very frustrated at not being able to do more for Harry and the Order...not to mention the psychological and emotional issues that a long term of incarceration can bring on in a person.

If Kreacher doesn't come to an extremely nasty end in HBP, I'm going to be blowing my book up with the new things I've just been learning about in my Fire and Explosion module at uni... ...ooh, wait.....that should have been in the other thread....

I don't think you can apply Ockham's razor to a work of literature. The reason being that the author can chose to place details that she wants in the books -- this choice affects our biases as we read the story. Ockham's razor would force us to conclude through most of PS/SS that Snape was the bad guy because that is the details that JKR chose to include in the novel.

By the same reasoning, JKR chose to include tantalizing information concerning confusion & befuddlement draughts. More importantly, there are clues throughout OotP which indicate that Sirius and/or Harry may have been under the influence of these draughts. For instance, when Harry is looking into Snape's pensieve, he knows he is being 'reckless', but he can't stop himself. Throughout OotP there are such 'clues' in the bahavior of Harry & Sirius. ex. Sirius was reckless when accompanying Harry to the train and Sirius is often in a fowl temper. Both of these are symptoms of the draught (definitely not proof).

Certainly both Harry & Sirius can be excused for their behavior due to their age & circumstances. This is precisely the type of 'excuse' that JKR includes in her works to mislead the reader. Was Barty Crouch ever the most likely candidate to place Harry's name in the GOF -- of course not!!

The confusion & befuddlement draught theory closes up a few loose ends that JKR has intentionally left open. For instance, how can Snape be both vile, but support the order (answer: he feeds Sirius the draught in order to humiliate him, but it winds up making him reckless when attacking Bellatrix.) How can Harry study Occlumens, but wind up being more open to Voldemort's dreams & feelings -- to the point of not even remembering to close his mind at bedtime? (answer, he is being fed the draught, which keeps him from concentrating.)

I don't know. You could be right. It just seems to me that no one would be able to get close enough to both Harry and Sirius. And if they could why just "the Draught" to either one. I think there has got to be far more potent stuff that would affect Harry or Sirius.

However, I think Harry's mood swings can be attributed to more than just his adolescence. I think that those moments where Harry has unusual or strange reactions can be attributed to Moments when Tom Riddle's soul is shining through, not the draught ( See Changeling Hypothesis). Examples of this are when Ginny gives Harry the Easter egg. I believe Harry's reactions became more noticeable in "Order" because now that Voldemort is back, Voldemort's feelings play a larger role in how Harry reacts to things.

Sirius Lupin wrote: "I don't think that a character's outbursts, feelings, or imperfections need to be rationalized or glossed over with a "draught" theory."

This is 180 degrees from my logic. I started with a question -- 'Why did JKR write about the confusion & befuddlement draughts?' -- from there I developed some ideas about who it could be & why. I agree that either Sirius or Harry's actions/emotions could be explained through their circumstances, but then why did JKR mention these draughts?

If both Sirius or Harry were fed these draughts, I do not believe the same person (or house elf?) was responsible.

Snape has spent time at Grimmauld Place, at least when Harry was there. He also shows every inclination in antagonizing Sirius -- which is why he would visit Grimmauld Place. We have no real idea how Snape contacts members of the order, nor do we know if Snape visited Grimmauld place when Harry is not there. Dumbledore points out that Sirius is mature enough to handle Snape's peronal attacks.

I agree that Snape is the most complicated & interesting character of the books. Dumbledore trusts him in the order (and I believe that Dumbledore's trust is well-placed), but he also has a 'dark side'. Part of his dark side is that he hates the maruaders, especially the one who tried to kill him (Sirius). Plus, Snape is excellant at potion making.

The number of times that Harry and/or Sirius are described as reckless and angry/somber is enormous throughout the book .... and then there's that passage about the confusion & befuddlement draughts ............

Funny, when I read the passage about Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts it did pop in my mind that someone might be slipping them to Harry to make him reckless on certain occasions. The prime suspect for me is Umbridge. She sent Dementors after him and tried to get him convicted for defending himself. Why stop her campaign of illegal activities there? since her first try didn't work, it would make sense for her to try again by any means to get him to do something really stupid and get expelled, at the very least.

The weak point that we are all contending with is: How was it administered. Unfortunately for this theory we don't see any pattern of Harry consuming something specific before each reckless episode. The house elf idea is interesting--It never occured to me-- but who gets to command the house elves? When Dobby came to the last DA meeting to warn them that Umbridge was on the way, he had great difficulty in telling them anything specific because Umbridge had ordered the House Elves not to tell. So it seems that any of the teachers can command the house elves. But we still have the problem that any food sent up to the Griffindor table will be consumed by many different students, and not necessarily by Harry at all (I suppose the best way to get him would be to lace anything with treacle in it, but still...).

I don't think Sirius was under the influence of a Befuddlement draught. He just has a reckless personality, he always has. One reason Harry fell so easily for Voldemort's trick that Sirius had been captured was because Harry had been expecting Sirius's risk-taking personality to lead to something like that for years.

Alright. Time for me to join this. Dana, I already know what you're going to say so don't say it. We agreed to disagree. My answer is: Why use potions when you can go straight to the source of all thought?

I am pretty convinced by the Changeling Hypothesis and as it is explained in length and complexity over at Red Hen Publications, it contains a lot of info about side topics as well. What I am saying is: Voldemort could have been messing with Harry throughout OotP, not just after the Mr. Weasley attack. Reasons? Harry has a very, very unstable temper starting at... what? Chapter one of OotP? Our first few pages introduce us to the overly frustrated, boiling temper Harry.

Qs: Why is this so significant? Didn't he just see someone die? A: Harry has had a week on screen in GoF after that to show any signs of being different emotionally, which he hasn't from what I read, and he has had five weeks tops off screen and he has augmented anger into his personality. He blows up at his friends when he knows that Dumbledore kept them from doing anything. Now we all know that Harry can yell when it's needed but now is really not the time, nor does he have enough evidence or reason to be this mad. This continues throughout OotP. (Just for one, his abrupt explosion during their talk about starting DA. Sure he would have been yelling eventually but to get him yelling, you need a life/welbeing threatening event or you have to get him mad slowly, gradually. How many times has he yelled at Malfoy?) How can the boy who doesn't explode unless he has to suddenly be a walking time bomb, even though he looks, feels, and thinks like he is fine?

Now that you have that brewing into your head, add this on. Harry's vision at the Riddle house wakes Harry up just about the time that Mr. Muggle gets killed. He wakes up to the horror of seeing Voldemort as the demented like baby. Now that is probably the biggest emotion that Harry has felt after a vision. How do we know that ol' Voldy didn't find out about the connection then? How do we know that Voldy wasn't sending Harry emotions/influencing Harry's emotions as OotP started? Voldemort is, by far, capable of using the connection right after his resurrection. I think that Voldemort has been redirecting Harry's emotions and maybe amplifying them, sometimes adding his own spice when needed. Harry didn't even know he was feeling Voldy's emotions until about halfway through OotP, right? Why could it be so impossible that Voldy is using the connection before then?

Hi Bandoth. I agree with you that Voldemort's emotions were influencing Harry throughout OotP, but not necessarily by Voldemort's conscious direction. Harry complains right from the start that his scar hurting has become a common occurance. As the story progresses Harry discovers that he can often discern Voldemort's emotional state, provided it is different from the emotion Harry himself feels at that time. If Harry is angry, and voldemort is angry at the same time (and isn't he usually angry?), there is no way for Harry to tell the emotion isn't his, so it just pushes him a little closer to the edge.

At the end of GoF Harry is in a kind of emotional shutdown. By the time OotP starts he has gotten past that and has plenty of reason to be very angry, particularily at Dumbledore.

About the connection--I do wonder how Voldemort experiences the connection. The pain Harry feels is a good tip off for him that what he experiences is Voldy related, but how do we know how it goes for Voldy? In PS/SS he seemed uneffected until Quirrelmort actually tried to touch Harry. By GoF Voldy had acquired some weird little body, but it was weak and Harry's vision was from outside of it. I doubt he ever figured out Harry was there.

harry and black are under no spell or potion of anysort good point though.