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Full Version: Detection of Underage Wizardry

arujyuna

Dec 25 2004, 02:58 AM

Okay, Harry used the patronus charm to get rid of the Dementors at Little Whinging right?

So after that, the Inteligents said that he was conjuring a Patronus charm outside school, and he was underaged, so it was illegal right?

But, there was an exception that he can conjure it if there was a real Dementor atacking him.

So, how does the inteligents know that he was conjuring a Patronus Charm? They waren't there.. And if they saw Harry doing it then the Inteligents must saw the Dementors too, Right?

If there was some kind of censor of underage sorcery outside school, then why was Harry accused of using a hover charm at the 2nd book, when it was actually Dobby who did the magic?

Can some one explain this to me?

zyra123

Dec 25 2004, 08:44 AM

Hmm... I've been thinking about this too for some time.

And I thought I've seen the explanation somewhere but I've just spend the last hour looking for it and couldn't remember where I read it for the life of me...

So, here's my two cent's worth...

I think Dobby own a certain power (he did manage to apparate around Hogwarts, where no wizards can...), where he can bounce the source (lack of better word) of where the magic came from to Harry in order to avoid himself getting caught. He's not suppose to be there in the first place, remember? So, maybe when the Hover Charm was conjured, he made it so to look like Harry that did it instead of him.

As for the Intelligents in OotP, they might have been influenced by Fudge to keep an extra eye towards Harry because of the fiasco he made about Voldemort coming back. Thus, when Harry conjured the Patronus, they might have some kind of censor (from the wands, perhaps?) to quickly identify Harry as an underage wizards doing magic outside school... and they didn't wait any moment longer to send the official warning out.

Hmm... I dunno eh?

xXhApOcHiCxX

Dec 25 2004, 09:28 AM

yea i ahve wondered on upon the same thing arujyuna but i ahve never asked about that either.

katkid

Dec 25 2004, 12:25 PM

It's said in the book that house elves have special powers of their own. I too would like to know how they found out about it though.

xXhApOcHiCxX

Dec 25 2004, 09:36 PM

one thing that is weird is that how voldemort got harrys blood. i mean voldemort might not have touched him but wormtail did and wormtail is an enemy of harrys too idont know how he touched him in the first place to get his blood. That was reallly weird he shoudl have been turned into ashes like quirells hands didwehn he touched harry wormtail is an enemy.

MOD EDIT : Please keep to the topic. You're getting way off topic here.

kreacher_the_house_elf

Dec 26 2004, 03:37 AM

I think that because we find out that Dolores actually ordered them there, she possibly could've covered it up? Or they just turned a blind eye to it.

With Dobby, it was strange, Harry was the only one that saw him. Perhaps they can't detect it? I'm really not sure..

Allie

Dec 26 2004, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (katkid @ Dec 25 2004, 07:25 AM)

It's said in the book that house elves have special powers of their own.

Do you notice that at a few points throughout "Order of the Phoenix," Harry questions the powers of house-elves? In the beginning of the book, for example, he asserts his certainty that Dobby does not know how to become invisible. I think, as katkid pointed out, that the fact that the Ministry blamed Harry for the Hover Charm in "Chamber of Secrets" may be related to the frequently-underestimated powers of the house-elves. (Incidentally, I do not believe we'll be questioning the powers of house-elves any longer after July 16th... once we read about the house-elf revolt that I feel sure will take place in Book Six!

) Anyway, since Dobby was never supposed to be at Harry's house, as zyra123 mentioned, my thought is that he probably used his mysterious powers to affect whatever intelligence the Ministry uses to detect underage magic. The Ministry can detect which spell was performed and when and where and all, but I just think that Dobby did something to mess up the system. There probably is some kind of nationwide surveillance system or something (this feels weird, trying to rationalize the detection of underage magic... but oh well...

) to make sure that no Hogwarts students are using magic outside of school. If Hogwarts is capable of producing a parchment book that auto-records the name and birthdate of every wizard kid born in Britain, I don't think it's stretching it to think that they could devise a similar way of monitoring the summer activities of the students. And that of course would be how the Ministry knew that Harry had produced a Patronus Charm in particular.

zyra123

Dec 26 2004, 07:53 PM

I thought the issue is how Dobby able to escape the penalty for Hover Charm and bounce the fault to Harry here... as for the Intelligence finding out about Patronus Charm, must be the usual way they found out about underage wizard using magic outside school...

QUOTE

If Hogwarts is capable of producing a parchment book that auto-records the name and birthdate of every wizard kid born in Britain,

Did this mention in the book? Must have missed it... care to point the quote for me?

Allie

Dec 27 2004, 02:21 PM

Sorry if I wasn't addressing the main issue of this conversation, zyra! I was looking at the first post on this thread, and it's quite probable that I went off-topic a bit... I'm rather prone to tangents; usually I catch my deviations from the main topic when I am reading my post preview, but I guess I missed it this time...

Anyway, the quote to which you are referring was not from one of the books, so you didn't miss anything there. It was from J.K. Rowling's online chat in February 2000. You can read the full interview here. Here is the quote that is relevant to this topic:

QUOTE

Q. How can two Muggles have a kid with magical powers? Also how does the Ministry of Magic find out these kids have powers?

A. It's the same as two black-haired people producing a redheaded child. Sometimes these things just happen, and no one really knows why! The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book. Every year Professor McGonagall checks the book, and sends owls to the people who are turning 11.

Sally-Anne Perks

Dec 27 2004, 02:52 PM

This thread has sort of gone a bit off-topic...to bring it back to the original question, I always thought that when Mafalda Hopkirk wrote "we have received intelligence..." she meant that the Ministry was able to see that magic was used at #4, Privet Drive. I agree with Anthony that there is a "nationwide surveillance system" in place to detect any magic that occurs in a given location. As for the reason why they didn't know that Dobby performed the Hover Charm, Harry is the only wizard known to be living in Little Whinging, so they assumed that any magic coming from that area is connected directly to Harry.

realbullet

Dec 27 2004, 04:01 PM

"I agree with Anthony that there is a "nationwide surveillance system" in place to detect any magic that occurs in a given location."

I don't agree. I believe the MoM was especially targeting Harry. It would be ridiculous to monitor children of wizards -- there is plenty of magic to go around in those houses. Before Harry knew he was a wizard, he did magical acts without understanding them. He did not receive any notice from the MoM in those cases. Plus, you know some underage wizards are practicing magic all summer long somewhere.

It only makes sense that the MoM is monitoring Harry just like Dumbledore was watching him. There ability to 'watch' him is limited to location, not who is doing the spells.

Sally-Anne Perks

Dec 27 2004, 04:32 PM

Hmmm...yes, that's actually a very good point, realbullet. I guess there are so many wizarding children that it would be impossible to moniter all of them, and detecting signs of magic by location would also be impossible, as you said, because many of them have parents who are allowed to do magic. You have me convinced: they probably are monitering Harry, trying to dig up further evidence that he's a lunatic who can't be trusted...

. And then, since Umbridge certainly wasn't saying that she sent the dementors to Harry, they assumed that he had no good reason for doing a Patronus, and so they had him expelled, and set the hearing...But you're right, they wouldn't be able to moniter every single magical child. Although I'm sure that uncontrolled, wandless magic from before Harry knew that he was a wizard wouldn't be punished - after all, how could he know that he was doing magic?

Allie

Dec 27 2004, 04:37 PM

Sorry guys... I am about to completely contradict what I said in my other post! Well... maybe not completely contradict... but my ideas have definitely shifted....

I basically got this idea when I was reading the quote that zyra requested in a previous post. J.K. Rowling stated that:

QUOTE

The Ministry of Magic doesn't find out which children are magic. In Hogwarts there's a magical quill which detects the birth of a magical child, and writes his or her name down in a large parchment book.

If the Ministry of Magic does not track which children are magical, how could they possibly be the ones in charge of tracking underage magic over the summer? I think that Hogwarts must be in charge of dealing with all underage magic. This idea is corroborated by Dumbledore's statement in Harry's hearing that "the Ministry has no power to expel Hogwarts students." The two times that Harry received official notices for *using* magic outside of Hogwarts (granted, one of them was Dobby) the Ministry specifically attacks Harry's use of magic in the presence of Muggles, and mentions the Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery almost as an aside. This makes me believe that the Ministry detected Harry's magic at the Dursleys' house in the context of the Statute of Secrecy, rather than the fact that he is underage. realbullet has also provided some compelling evidence that the Ministry does not track underage sorcery - Harry does not receive any notices for magic that he performed (and he performed quite a bit of it, to my understanding) before he knew that he was a wizard.

I agree with realbullet that the Ministry must be tracking Harry in particular, and there are ample reasons why they may be doing so. Pre-"Goblet of Fire," they followed him out of concern for his well-being - although they do not understand the important role that he must eventually play in the wizarding world, as the Ministry does not know about the prophecy, he still is "the Boy Who Lived," and a public figure whom they wish to protect. For example, when Sirius Black is supposed to be after Harry in "Prisoner of Azkaban," the Ministry knows when he leaves the Dursleys' house and Cornelius Fudge himself is waiting for Harry at the Leaky Cauldron. Post-"Goblet of Fire," it is clear that the Ministry is *stalking* Harry because they want to discover some excuse to expel him. It's possible that they use Metamorphmagi or Animagi or even invisibility cloaks to stalk Harry... no idea exactly what they're up to exactly, but I think that's the reason that the Ministry knows the precise nature of Harry's spells.

It would be easy enough for a house-elf to fool a Ministry rep who is hiding outside the Dursleys' window in an invisibility cloak. On page 19 of "Chamber of Secrets," it says that "on top of a cupboard in the corner crouched Dobby." If you're standing outside a window trying to spy on Harry Potter, how likely is it that you would be able to see a house-elf on the top of a cabinet from your vantage point - especially if you are not even looking for a sign of something suspicious, but rather just watching out for the Boy Who Lived? This could be why Harry was blamed for the Hover Charm, even though he didn't do it. In the scenario in "Order of the Phoenix," with humongous Dudley and little skinny Harry walking down Magnolia Crescent, it would have been extremely obvious that Harry was the one who cast the Patronus.

However, I disagree with realbullet that "it would be ridiculous to monitor children of wizards -- there is plenty of magic to go around in those houses." I think that Ron would get into trouble if he did magic outside of Hogwarts, too - I just don't think the Ministry would get involved in his case. Since I believe that it is Hogwarts that keeps track of underage magic over the summer, he would only be able to get in trouble with Hogwarts. Harry gets in added trouble with the Ministry because he is surrounded by *stalkers.*

How's that for a revised theory?

I changed my ideas a bit since my last post.... What do you think?

Sally-Anne Perks

Dec 27 2004, 04:44 PM

That makes a lot of sense, Anthony. I am certain that there is some consequence for using magic away from Hogwarts for underage wizards; otherwise, why would McGonagall bother to send home the note saying that magic during the summer holidays is forbidden? So if there are consequences for doing underage magic away from Hogwarts, there must be a way that Dumbledore and McGonagall discover that the underage magic has been done. This leads to Anthony's conclusion that the Hogwarts staff is able to detect underage magic. As for the Ministry, I think it is highly likely that they are keeping track of Harry in particular - it would, after all, be bad publicity if the Boy Who Lived was attacked by a Dark wizard right under the Ministry's (supposedly) watchful eye

...And the Ministry loved to know things about Harry...especially if it gives them a good article about how he's an unbalanced, tragic hero...

Louise

Dec 28 2004, 03:25 AM

This is a bit of a sticky issue, this...and always has been, at least to me anyway.

I've never understood why the delineations between Hogwarts and the Ministry with regard to law enforcement can sometimes be so blurred.

Clearly it is against the law to use magic underage - just as it's illegal to steal a car......it doesn't matter whether the person breaking the law is a minor or not, they get punished by the legal system regardless. If, however, that person who stole the car is a minor, you wouldn't expect his/her school to intervene and dole out the punishments, would you? So, if underage wizardry is against the law, why does Hogwarts stick its nose in? It's nothing to do with Hogwarts. Therefore, Harry would be subject to punishment from the Ministry, not the school.

And, by the way, 'intelligence' is any information that is received regarding a particular activity or study. It can be data, photographs, written statements, that kind of thing. It can be derived from using 'detectors' although, as has already been said by people here, it would be nigh-on impossible to monitor, particularly in a wizarding household anyway.

realbullet

Dec 28 2004, 03:49 PM

Anthony wrote: "I think that Ron would get into trouble if he did magic outside of Hogwarts, too - I just don't think the Ministry would get involved in his case."

I feel confident that Ron is not the Weasley family member to be concerned with on this account. Exactly when did Fred & George make those magic toffee's?

That being said, the ministry even knew about Harry's 'wandless' magic against his aunt in POA. This struck me as I read the book. How could they detect this magic, but not releasing the snake in SS/PS?

Sally-Anne Perks

Dec 28 2004, 07:54 PM

I think Anthony's point, realbullet, was merely that Harry isn't the only wizard who would get in trouble for underage magic. She was just using Ron as an example - Fred, George, Zacharias Smith, Oliver Wood (well, not Wood - he's of age

) - any of them could easily have been used. Anthony was just trying to say that Harry isn't the only one who can't do magic away from school.

I think that the Ministry knew about Harry's little "incident" with Aunt Marge in Prisoner of Azkaban because they were watching him very carefully, as Sirius Black was (supposedly) after him. The Ministry, at that point, wanted their little hero to be safe, so they were keeping a careful eye on him to make sure that Sirius didn't get to him. I still agree with Anthony that there are spies trailing Harry and making sure that he's safe, watching to see if he does any underage magic on the side (not unlike Mundungus Fletcher and other Order members, who we learn are following Harry, though reporting to a different group). Not to mention the fact that when Harry released the snake, he didn't even know that he was a wizard - it was uncontrolled magic performed without any knowledge whatsoever of the magical world. Granted, his incident with Aunt Marge was also uncontrolled, but at least by then he should have realized that this wandless magic occurs when he's feeling particularly angry, and perhaps he would have learned to control his feelings a bit.

caitlin_usa

Jan 21 2005, 01:17 AM

Ooo... I just wanted to point out what someone said about Wormtail being able to touch Harry even though he was an enemy... Remeber, Voldemot was ATTATCHED to Quirrel when Quirrel touched Harry... so that was why Quirrel could not touch Harry, as for Wormtail, even though he is an enemy, Voldemort is not living on the other side of his head, so it seems very logical to me that Wormtail can touch Harry.

Hmmm and about them detecting Harry's Patronus, Umbridge did send the dementors to LW, so maybe she was watching?? Well I guess then the ministry would still have the magic detector thing...

As for House Elves... I'm kinda of lost on that. I did find it extremely eerie that they can apparate or turn invisible or whatever inside Hogwarts... I guess that's because they're not really supposed to be seen according "that's a sign of a good House Elf, you're not supposed to know they're there" or something like that, but in the weird jargon of the house elves of course.

Hmm... what else was this thread on?? Gosh I can't even remember... well hopefully that kind of sums up some of the questions asked...

TheSeventh

Oct 9 2006, 01:30 AM

in the books it was said that magic can be detected within a household, but they cant detect who performed the magic. So logically, Harry beinging the only wizard in his house, they assumed it was Harry who performed the Hover Charm because they didn't know Dobby was there. It also said that because the ministry can only detect magic not the user, parents are responsible for enforcing the no magic during breaks rule. Hope this helped.

bajab

Oct 9 2006, 11:09 AM

The problem with the explantation given in HBP was that it doesn't fit properly. Consider that Harry was detected casting the patronus well away from his house -They turned right down the narrow alleyway where Harry had first seen Sirius and which formed a short cut between Magnolia Crescent and Wisteria Walk. OOTP Dudley Demented.

There were Order members on watch around Harry's house who would have been using magic (eg Apparate), so if they can't tell who performed the magic, and can detect it outside of the house, why didn't the Order members trigger a warning?

Then there is the time when the Weasleys come to picj Harry up in GOF and Arthur uses magic, then the Order comes to pick Harry up in Ootp and use magic inside of the house, and even Dumbledore does it in HBP. All of these should have been detected as underage magic, if Dumbledore's explanation was accurate.

Personally, I always wondered about the line in the last chapter of PS -
And suddenly, their wardrobes were empty, their trunks were packed, Neville's toad was found lurking in a corner of the toilets; notes were handed out to all students, warning them not to use magic over the holidays ("I always hope they'll forget to give us these," said Fred Weasley sadly);

It would have made a lot more sense, and been less of a plot hole, if the notes where somehow the trigger used to track underage magic usage, and Dobby fooled the spell.

TheSeventh

Oct 29 2006, 11:38 PM

actually bajab, it does make sense because harry is the only known wizard around the area in which the dursley's live.

Mod Edit: We don't allow short posts on this site. Please go read the Rules.

mayfair

Oct 31 2006, 10:56 AM

QUOTE

There were Order members on watch around Harry's house who would have been using magic (eg Apparate), so if they can't tell who performed the magic, and can detect it outside of the house, why didn't the Order members trigger a warning?

Then there is the time when the Weasleys come to picj Harry up in GOF and Arthur uses magic, then the Order comes to pick Harry up in Ootp and use magic inside of the house, and even Dumbledore does it in HBP. All of these should have been detected as underage magic, if Dumbledore's explanation was accurate.

You know Bajab, you make a very valid point over there. If the underage magic was monitored as Dumbeldore explained, then all the magic used in the vicinity of Harry's house would have been attributed to him. There could be perfectly reasonable explanations for the times when Weasleys or Dumbledore came to retrieve Harry. Arthur Weasley had arranged for a temporary floo connection to Harry's residence so it is possible that ministry may have been informed in advance about his visit and the possibility of magic being performed. While Dumbeldore himself may not have informed the ministry, his ability to make himself "unplottable" and by extension his magic "unplottable" could be the key.

I recall JKR telling something of the likes of wizrads and witches can make themselves (and possibly their magic) "unplottable" to avoid detection. Members of the Order of the Phoenix would be required to work in secrecy and any detection by ministry would not be in their favor. Thus' they could have rendered all of themselves "unplottable" This may explain why they were willing to apparate but not use a portkey, because a portkey could have been tracked, since it was a magical object and not a person (but could it be made unplottable as well???). Harry on the other had was closely monitored,firstly for who he was and where he stayed- a muggle neighborhood with no magical beings nearby- and secondly, the ministry was looking for ways to discredit him. I agree that this could be a feeble explanation, but that's all that I could come up with in response to the points raised by Bajab.

After the Burial

Oct 31 2006, 03:04 PM

Mayfair, the idea that witches and wizards can cloak themselves (to borrow a term from Star Trek) is very interesting. It would certainly explain why they can avoid detection. I am very intereted in this article. Do you have any idea where you read it, or even how long ago?

mayfair

Oct 31 2006, 04:52 PM

QUOTE

Actually I got this idea from one of the F.A.Q.s on JKRs website. In response to a question, she had this to say.

QUOTE

Q: In 'Prisoner of Azkaban', why couldn't the Ministry of Magic have sent Sirius an owl, and then followed it, to find him?

JKR: Just as wizards can make buildings unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl

If wizards can indeed make themselves untraceable, then it is very likely that the members of the Order of the Phoenix, who work in secrecy from both the death eaters and the ministry would have done something similar, since it would give them a great advantage in their work. If they can make themselves untraceable, then it's logical that all the magic done by them would be untraceable as well. This may explain why ministry did not detect anything in Harry's house when the members of the Order were there. If we recall, ministry was unable to find Dumbledore whenever he left the castle, this may explain why his magic too was not detected at Harry's residence.

Dementika

Dec 23 2006, 03:45 PM

As i can recall in book 6 when harry and dumbledore are in the pensieve watching the memory that dumbledore tooked from ogden. Ogden said (i am not quite sure about the exact words but at least this is the ideea) that "we have reasons to believe that Morfin made magic in front of a muggle last night" (correct me if i said wrong) .
He didn`t specific what kind of spell or curse he just said that they had reasons to believe.
I don`t know where i read, in a interview with JK or in the books, but i am sure that somewhere is something about the fact that the minister can notify underage wizards that does magic outside of school, but NOT notifie if they are in a family of wizards. So my question is: why did they notify Morfin? After all, his father was a wizard and Merope too.
Most likely in POA and in OOTP Harry was being watched and that is the manner that they could find out what kind of spell he did. But it is so UNFAIR!!! If someone (underaged wizard) comes to visit Harry perhaps, or does magic around the Dursley`s house, the minister will think that it`s Harry`s fault.
In another order of ideas, i do not think all wizards can make themselves unreplaceable, and if they all can, some of the wizards won`t make themselves like this. From confort or not knowing or whatever you want. This issue is troubling me for a long time and i hope that JK will gave us the proper explainations. What do you think?

mayfair

Dec 26 2006, 05:22 AM

QUOTE

So my question is: why did they notify Morfin? After all, his father was a wizard and Merope too.

You answered your question yourself, through this statement of yours

QUOTE

"we have reasons to believe that Morfin made magic in front of a muggle last night"

The Ministry of Magic send a notification to Morfin not becuase he was underage but that he performed magic in front of a muggle, who by their records was unaware of the existence of the magical world. Thereby Morfin's conduct was in violation of that statute of secrecy which invites penalty. It was not a case of underage magic. Remember what Hagrid said in the first book in response to Harry's query on the role of ministry of magic, "Their main job is to keep from muggles that there are witches and wizards up and down the length of this country". So Morfin was notified because he risked "the exposure of magical world"

QUOTE

In another order of ideas, i do not think all wizards can make themselves unreplaceable, and if they all can, some of the wizards won`t make themselves like this.

It's not whether all wizards can make themselves unplottable or not, but the ones who choose to do so. The members of the order have to remain inconspicuous due to the nature of their wok which requires them to work in absolute secrecy away from the eyes of both ministry and death eaters/sympathisers. So they would have figured out a way to mask their magic from others. Similarly Sirius was on the run and would use magic from time to time, so he too would be well served by not allowing a ministry to have a free trace on him. Like JKR said, witches and wizards can make themselves and the places they inhabit, unplottable. This is important if they have to hide themselves from muggles and others. Those who do not wish to hide themselves, have no need for these secrecy charms.

El Barto

Dec 26 2006, 08:52 AM

Do you guys think that the powers at be (the Ministry of Magic) know anything about underage magic that involves those who either have no idea how to do magic or do it by accident? What I mean is, take Harry for example. He did magic without even knowing. Could he get punished if he was not informed at all that he was going to become a wizard? Was it even detected since he had never gone to a magical school? Same can be said about Tom Riddle. I guess they draw the line somewhere, indicating at which point underage magic is against the law.

mayfair

Dec 26 2006, 03:27 PM

QUOTE

I believe that JKR had something to say to this effect. She mentioned that the magical children are often subject to unsuspected magical bursts especially when they are scared or under stress and their pent up magic is released. These would certainly show up on the ministry radar as uncontrolled unintentional magical activity. Ministry is aware that magical children would show such tendencies till they know how to channel their magic. These are usually ignored till the wizard or witch is formally admitted to Hogwarts. That's when the underage statute comes into effect, because it's expected that the unexpected bursts would cease and the magical activity seen would be part of some spell performed by the underage wizard.

One more thing, accidental magic often comes out as a magical spurt with no distinct feature to it; that may explain why the ministry is able to detect the difference. Remember when Harry received both his notices they mentioned the spells they had detected. So they knew it was a deliberate magical act. If we recall OotP, "a burst of .... went through Harry and Vernon let go in shock as if burned. It was as if some power had shot through Harry making him unbearable to hold" Harry did not receive any notice for that because there was no "spell" involved, but later he got the notice for "casting a patronus charm in full view of a muggle". So my guess is that there is some way fro the ministry to distinguish between a spell and a magical burst. The incident in Harry's third year is different because there was such a huge burst of magic involved starting from Harry blowing up Marge to the cupboard opening up on its own and him flagging the knight bus.

mayfair

Jan 21 2007, 11:26 AM

I am really sorry for the double post here, but I wanted to add this point to the discussion and was hoping that the topic becomes active once again

The underage magic restriction law is a perfect example of ministry bigotry and their discrimination of muggle-borns. Children in wizarding establishments can get away with all the spells they need and the ministry either won't be able to nail the spells on them or would eb unable to detect them, while the students in muggle establishments, mostly muggle-borns or a few muggle raised such as Harry are as a huge disadvantage. The former can practice magic over summer and improve their skills, while the latter are condemned to stay as muggles for the duration they are away from school.

It's almost as if the ministry is determined to drive the muggle-born/raised witches and wizards away from the magical world for some duration atleast. It appears to be an attempt to ensure that purebloods always have an advantage. I mean it should nto be too difficult for them to relax the law. For instance the magical use can be confined to the residence and only in presence of muggles who are aware of the existence of the magical world. The should be allowed to practice magic at home, and the spells may be carefully monitored by the ministry.

It's a credit to muggle-born/raised witches and wizards that inspite of such restrictions, many of them have turned out exceptional. Harry, Tom Riddle- as Dumbledore called him probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts had ever seen, Lily Evans, Hermione Granger, Penelope Clearwater (she was a Ravenclaw prefect and must have been pretty good to be one), Dirk Cresswell- the head of Goblin Liason Office

LunasLil'bro

Apr 10 2007, 09:50 PM

I don't know if this was already explained, but i distinctly remember reading that if you do undeerage sorcery in an adult wizard's house, you won't get in trouble, but if your muggleborn or are like Harry, (a person who comes from to wizards, but lives with muggles) then even if there's magic done in you house, you'll get in trouble. Dumbledore says that the ministry can detect magic, but can't detect the perpetrator.

Mod Edit: There is no need for such a large font size.

mayfair

Apr 10 2007, 10:57 PM

QUOTE

Exactly. Ministry is unable to distinguish Legal and underage magic when performed in the vicinity of each other. For example suppose ministry is monitoring the burrow and Ron performs a Scourgify, the ministry would know that Scourgify was performed, but would have no idea as to who did it. they would assume that it was one of the adults since underage witches or wizards are not allowed to perform magic out of school. They rely upon the parents and guardians to regulate their wards and prevent them from performing any from of magic that's illegal.

In case of Muggleborn (like Hermione) or muggle raised students (like Harry, Tom) the ministry is well aware that they are probably the only magic users in that locality. For instance Fudge pointed out at Harry's trial that the ministry had no record of any witch or wizard staying other than Harry in or around Little Whinging Surrey, so any magic in that area was naturally assumed to originate from Harry. Similarly any magic detected in the vicinity of Hermione's residence would be attributed to her, since she' most likely to be the only magic user known. While the law is same for all, the implementation issues ensure that the muggle born/raised children are often at a disadvantage when facing such a situation. They would be unable to practice magic while away from school, while students from pureblood or all magic families would be able to practice their magical abilities over the vacations.

( Half-Blood-Prince)

Apr 11 2007, 05:15 AM

how come nothing happened to hermione...in the first book when she meets ron and harry on the train..ron trys to perform magic on scabbers but doesnt work.. the hermione says shes done magic and every spell has worked for her she then repairs harrys glasses...but if she has already tryed out magic it would most likley be at home..then how come the minstry did nothing about this or was it just a mistake in the book?

Phoenix92

Apr 11 2007, 07:33 AM

QUOTE

I do wonder if it was a mistake..But I've got a question.
In OotP..Harry gets a notification that he used the Patronus Charm.In the hearing,the Wizegamot(some of them) doesn't believe that Dementors were there in Little Whining.If I'm correct,Patronus Charm is only used against Dementors.Wouldn't the Wizengamot should have gone into the matter,why Harry used a Patronus Charm and not just any othe defending spells?? or were they threatened by Umbridge to somehow try Harry to get expulsion?.

mayfair

Apr 11 2007, 08:03 AM

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The fact is that Hermione performed magic before leaving for Hogwarts, since she was not officially a student yet and was likely to be unaware of the rules, her use of magic was most likely overlooked. Remember, the student lists did not mention anything about magic not to be preformed outside of school. It was Hagrid who told Harry about it. It seems that the underage magic notices go out only after students have entered Hogwarts and completed atleast a term there. For pre-hogwarts students, as long as the magic was not threatening, ministry would ignore it, unless there was something like what happened to Marge.

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In OotP..Harry gets a notification that he used the Patronus Charm.In the hearing,the Wizegamot(some of them) doesn't believe that Dementors were there in Little Whining.If I'm correct,Patronus Charm is only used against Dementors.Wouldn't the Wizengamot should have gone into the matter,why Harry used a Patronus Charm and not just any othe defending spells?? or were they threatened by Umbridge to somehow try Harry to get expulsion?.

That was because Fudge and many others in the ministry were hellbent on discrediting Harry and Dumbledore and would do anything to make it possible. His use of Patronus was a handy excuse for them to pack Harry off and then they could turn their attention to Dumbledore. They attempted to throw Harry off by changing the hearing date, trying their best to preempt Dumbledore from being present at the hearing and a simple case of underage magic being tried by a full court. Like Dumbledore said, Fudge was blinded by power and would go any lengths to see off the two threats that were Harry and Dumbledore. They were least bothered to confirm whether there were any dementors around, because like Fudge said "Lets get on with it, I haven't got the time"

Lil Cougar

Apr 11 2007, 01:02 PM

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The fact is that Hermione performed magic before leaving for Hogwarts, since she was not officially a student yet and was likely to be unaware of the rules, her use of magic was most likely overlooked.

This is what I thought too... Hermione could have been sent a letter like Harry's and just never mentioned it though, but I think it was just over looked.

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This is something that I don't really think is fair because the students with wizard parents can do all the magic they want if their parents allow them to. But then the students like Harry and Hermione get in trouble everytime they try even if they were defending themselves like Harry was or if they didn't do it like in CoS with Dobby.

synchro spell

Apr 12 2007, 01:00 AM

i forget which book, but dumbledoor said once that the ministry can only detect the place in which magic is performed, not the magician, he also says that it is an adult wizard's responibility to make sure young do not do magic, and since they know harry lives with muggles and they probably would't be able to control harry, and they also didn't know dobby was there, than harry is the only logical conclusion they can come to from their views.

Apollia

Dec 3 2007, 02:22 AM

Just curious about this... why hasn't Harry been in trouble before for using the "Lumos" spell at home? (Example -- the very beginning of PoA, when he's in bed hiding from Vernon?

If this has been answered already, apologies!

Apollia

>Exactly. Ministry is unable to distinguish Legal and underage magic when performed in the >vicinity of each other. For example suppose ministry is monitoring the burrow and Ron >performs a Scourgify, the ministry would know that Scourgify was performed, but would have >no idea as to who did it. they would assume that it was one of the adults since underage >witches or wizards are not allowed to perform magic out of school. They rely upon the parents >and guardians to regulate their wards and prevent them from performing any from of magic >that's illegal.

mayfair

Dec 3 2007, 07:40 PM

In fact the situation is very different after the release of Deathly Hallows. The concept of trace has been introduced wherein, an underage witch or a wizard is lit up like a beacon that relays the information on all the magic performed by the said person outside the regulated environment. The trace is supposed to lift automatically once the witch or wizard turns seventeen. This is quite a turnaround from what we came to know in HBP and suggests that the concept of magic detection as described by Dumbledore was incorrect. Personally I believe this is just another example of the inconsistencies that define JKRs writing especially in the last two books.

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