What are some modern-day things that you think Dumbledore (if he were real/alive) would fit into, partake in? For example, what clubs do you see him joining, what do you see him doing, what is your vision of him in today's world?

I too think he wouldnt join the country club or something.. and as you said.... he would be a govornor or someone( if he thought he dersered to be one, if he was not obssesed by the Hallows).. He would probably try hard to make this place to leave in much better.

DUMBY!

I love how JK gives him the corny jokes! Haha.

He is sooooo intelligent, and witty, and everything else! He's amazing! I cried when he died...But I know he is still with Harry in spirit.

Is everybody really busy.. or are most people bored of Dumbledore now?? Its verrrry quiet, I know I too am guilty but seriously...
Anyway.. to the topic in hand;

Which modern/present day activities and groups would Dumbledore partake in?
Hm... well I see him doing some real community building things..I guess he would like to help young poeple, so he might help to run something for them, I know there are things such as the Young Assembly, in the UK at least, which help young people to get their views across to the government. I can imagine him helping out at those sessions.
As for himself, I think he would probably try new things out all the time, and join countless clubs and societies. He'd have his more sensible ones, being a governor and the like, and then his own personal indulgences such as the bowls club, he'd probably start something like cookery lessons; that would be amusing..
Even in the 'real' world, it seems that his life is a mix of what people need and expect him to be; mainly his role as a leader and 'respectable' community figure.. and then his own personal interests, which to others might seem out of the ordinary. Its one of the things that makes him such a great person- his determination not to lose the things which he enjoyed.. whilst maintaining his position in society.. Then again, I suppose its also one of the things that he struggled most with. Because of his personailty, and his need to help people when they needed it, sometimes he could easily loose the precarious balance of what other people need, and what he needed...
I also think he would write, maybe join a community or two of writers. I see in him a huge and largely unexpressed creativity and immaginations. Partnered with his wonderful mind, he could create amazing things. Writing would allow him to express his mind in a way that isnt vain or attention-seeking, and would be a great bit of escapism for him too.

***

I really like what veritaserum14 said;

Yes.. past occurences. He really did have a brilliant ability to see the past for what it was, and although deep in his heart he did dwell on aspects of it, when it counted he could see time as a whole, and learn from the past so as not to repeat mistakes.

***

Ahh got to go, food burning! Welcome to newcomers, hopefully you'll come back?? and post some interesting stuff!!!

Speak to you all soon!

Clara}~

What would Dumbledore see as his ultimate fulfilment? That is, what would it take for him to be fulfilled?

To be honest I see him as fulfilled , but again I know how people are & he doesnt feel fulfilled. So maybe to feel that he would want peace with everything , he would want to see all that he taught to harry work out at the end. he would want to see all the people he love livee a life that he couldnt, pretty much he wants to see everyone better than him (:

What are some modern-day things that you think Dumbledore (if he were real/alive) would fit into, partake in? For example, what clubs do you see him joining, what do you see him doing, what is your vision of him in today's world?

i would see him in the gov't. he would affiliate with anything thats worth & is a good cause (:

I agree with the statement that Dumbledore would make a wonderful President or Governor but I disagree that he would actually do it. Those types of positions are like taking the Minister of Magic job and Dumbledore would never do that.

I don't know about clubs, but I see Dumbledore maybe joining a lodge or something. Those kinds of places where the members are a bit older and they where ceremonial hats and participate in bowling leagues.

One thing I can see Dumbledore doing or heading is an organization like the Red Cross or the Peace Corps. I see his leadership skill as being invaluable in that capacity because it is more hands on then just government where one sits behind a desk making executive decisions. I see him really taking an interest in rebuilding the lives of others that have been destroyed by fire, flood, famine, tornados etc. I see him on the front lines distributing food, hugging crying women. He is compasionate in this way. I also see him volunteering for a providence that is almost unknown to provide education and aide. He wouldn't go to somewhere that Angelina Jolie has adopted a child because that providence is getting national attention already. He would want to help an area that it seems like the world has forgotton all about.

Hello Albus-fans! I always wanted to join this thread but I never felt like too brainy for discuss such a genius. Anyway, I'm going to try right now by answering some questions as a start.

Do you think that DD had any regrets when he died, or rather is there anything that you believe he may have wanted to change about his life, had he been able to? What would you change about DD or his past (if it were up to you to decide)?

I think he really regreted not to have trust a bit more in Harry, not to have told him about the prophecy before, or maybe all about his parents. He thought he was too young, and future was more important, but when he talked with Harry, both in OotP after Sirus death, and in 'King's Cross', he really looked sorry, for his weakness and fear, and all that.
When Snape killed him, I was so angry. I thought "Damn, how is that Dumbledore can't figure that out? Harry has been right all this time long? No, no, this can't be possible" It was like if Dumbledore had secretly dissapointed me. But then, I simply was ... very ashamed, just like Harry, for not have trusted in him.
Another thing I think he could have regreted is not have taken care of his brothers when younger, but that's something he himself set on when talking with Harry.

What would Dumbledore see as his ultimate fulfilment?
I agree that when Harry decided to stand again and face Voldemort instead of sleep peaceful forever, and then when Harry leaves tha Elder Wand and tells out he won't be looking for the Resurrection Stone. I think Dumbledore could finally rest in peace then.

What are some modern-day things that you think Dumbledore (if he were real/alive) would fit into, partake in? For example, what clubs do you see him joining, what do you see him doing, what is your vision of him in today's world?
Agree with nevillesgirl, he was absolutely capable for President, Ministry or positions like those, just as well as for Ministry of Magic, but Dumbledore would never take a place so. He set it very clear, he didn't trust himself with power.
In real life, I think he'd do the same as in the wizarding world: devoting himself into teaching, to pass a bit of his wisdom, working in good works, for good reasons, contributing to scientific knowledge, and things like that.

How did I do my first go?

Not bad DeSs (:
you actually wrote more than i did but thats becuase i tried to get down to the point but there is one little thing that i want to, not argue, just discuss that i read in your post . i dont think that he regretted not telling harry those things , i mean yea sure maybe he felt like he should but the way harry spoke to him it seem like he regretted but he explained why to harry he didnt, so maybe its not that he regrets not saying, he just was hoping for a diffrent attitude from him. but i completely agree with the brother , he def. regrets not doing something better for him & his sister ariana. he felt like he neglected them while involved with plans with grindelwald [i believe thats his name] .

Hehe, thanks nicky potter!
Never mind, I like discussing with people who is right or is in a good point, and you certainly are.
I didn't understand quite well what you tried to say, but judging by what I got, I think you're right. It's not like he was regretting, but he was explaining himself about the DH. And in OotP, I don't really know whether he was regreted or not, because he's like saying sorry to Harry, but in the other hand, I don't think he should have telling that before. Don't know, sometimes I agree with him, that Harry had already went through things enough as to give him even more to worry about; and sometimes wonder what would have happend it he told Harry years before ... Don't know whether that has some sense or not.
Dumbledore is a genius!!

Hey everybody! I love Dumbledore and want to join!!! I hope that's OK with everybody!

Do you think that DD had any regrets when he died, or rather is there anything that you believe he may have wanted to change about his life, had he been able to? What would you change about DD or his past (if it were up to you to decide)?

I think Dumbledore was ready to die, and had no regrets about dying himself, but I bet he wished that something could have changed when he was growing up, about his little sister and Grindelward, that Dumbledoré wouldn't have planned taking over the Muggles, hadn't gotten into the fight that killed his sister, Ariana. I wouldn't change anything though, because those events were what made him like he was before he died. Dumbledore had to meet Grindelwald and had to get into that fight, or he might not be the smart, wise one that people followed.

DUMBLEDORE FANS FOREVER!!

Welcome Dess, nicky potter and bookworm_1918! You are officially inducted into the Wise and the Wonderful! Just post a link in your siggy to solidify the deal and post as regularly as you can.

Dumbledore said that he made mistakes. He said he should have told Harry sooner what he was up against but he didn't because he began to care too much about Harry's happiness rather then his potential to fulfill the prophecy. I believe that at the end of OOTP, Dumbledore regretted not confiding in Harry sooner about the impact the prophecy would have on his life.

One of the things I like best about Dumbledore is that he was so intelliegent yet he was so unlike Hermione in that he was down to earth. He didn't let his intelliengence make him prideful but rather he had a quiet superiority about him. When he got angry, he was passionate about things and took them very seriously. His power was evident in the battle with Voldie at the Ministry. Dumbledore always saw the good in people and gave them second chances and this is where his weakness may be perhaps? Did Dumbledore have a weakness?

Thank you, nevillesgirl!!! *smiles all around*

I agree, the fact that Dumbledore always gave second chances is partly a weakness, but I think it's also a good thing, too. Some people deserve second chances, and would make the best of it, but some people wouldn't. Being giving like Dumbledore was could be fatal, but I think it's not a bad thing, in the right situation and the right person

What are some modern-day things that you think Dumbledore (if he were real/alive) would fit into, partake in? For example, what clubs do you see him joining, what do you see him doing, what is your vision of him in today's world?

I didn't answer this question, but I think I know an answer to that! I think Dumbledore would try to help keep the world clean...and help the poor and donate to charities...it just seems like the kind of thing Dumbledore would do, right? I think it was DeSs, right, who said that he could lead the country, be President, Prime Minister, because he's wise and could handle it well? One more thought about that though...Dumbledore might be capable, but would he want to? He turned down the Ministry of Magic top position, and President/Prime Minister aren't that different, are they? I think he could, but he wouldn't , for the reasons he wouldn't be the Minister of Magic.

Thanks for the welcome, nevillesgirl! I promess you to be posting whenever I have something intersting to comment, but about the link in my siggy ... I'd honestly like it, but judging by the amount of my fics, I doubt I could without getting in trouble about its lenght. But, I included it in my profile, hope that will be enough!
Well, I agree with you because that was what I was trying to say: he didn't want to hurt Harry or something at seeing so 'happy', we could say, happy in the way of happier than before he found out about the prophecy and his destiny.
And I think that he regreted not to have trust more in Harry, but at the same time Harry would have been frightened, and he knew it, and I don't know what would have changed if he had told him about it before; just giving Harry more to care about. Woha, I don't know if that had some sense.
I don't think that trusting in people was a weakness; I thought that at the end of HBP, about Snape, but then, when we saw the light, I realised that at last every people in with he trusted was really ... erm, trustable. He says his weakness was power, and despite that was in his youth he says he wouldn't trust him with power, and that was the reason of he never accepted a powerful charge. But I think that isn't true: when young, he didn't wanted the Elder Wand to conquer the world or anything (well, myabe a little to teach Muggles who rules, but then he became aware of Grindelwald true intentions and left the idea, didn't he?); his highes desire was the Resurrection Stone to recover his loved relatives. And when older, he kept the same idea, when he got cursed by the Horrocrux. So, I don't know what to think about whether he had weakness or not.

Welcome all new arrivals. Sorry that I could not give you guys as thorough a welcome as nevillesgirl did. But one positve thing that I can do for you guys is to analyze and discuss your opnions, and contribute some of my own.
DeSs-

Hey I did that too, and for almost the same reasons: I don't really have a lot of fics, but I just don't want to get in trouble for a super long siggy.

bookworm_1918-

I wouldn't really say that it was a weakness, more of a--quality. I see DD as a person who really knows knew *tear* how to appreciate people and see past their faults and differences. Like how he was willing to help Severus and give him a second chance.

nicky_potter-

Yes, I too think that he would very much have liked to see that his teaching helped Harry.

Go DD
Veritaserum14

Veritaserum14- thanks for the welcome!

As you all can see, I have 'Member of W.A.W.' in my siggy...because I haven't written any fanfics or put any pictures in my siggy (which I have no idea how to do!!!

Anyways...good thoughts everybody!!!


I don't have much to say..but I'm thinking of a good question or somethings...

I like this face...remind me of Dumbledore!!

apologies for the long time away i was from this topic. but im in a posting mood today & im back . thank you nevilesgirl (: i dont know about a link but i have it in my siggy & well gosh i have answered the questions you have all mentioned. :/ well then i'll be checking up on this topic for more questions if mentioned. please let me know (:


& thank you veritaserum14 for agreeing something with me

Hi all!!
Welcome; nicky potter, bookworm_1918 and DeSs, always good to see new faces!

Before I begin.. I'll warn you that this post is very likely going to turn into me typing as i think of things.. so feel free to pick at the bits you find interesting and ignore the rest!!
I was just reading through some of your posts, and the issue of whether giving second chances was a weakness or not made me think about Dumbledore would think of them.. whether they were right or wrong, weaknesses or strengths.

We all know that Dumbledore had many different sides to his personality, and these sides helped him in various situations. However, I think they were also the source of a lot of Dumbledore's internal conflict, and fueled the struggle that he had with himself since he was young.

The Philosopher in him would link the ability to give second chances to that divine ability to forgive, and would believe that second chances are essentials for fullfilment, that to forgive is what humanity should strive for. He gave people second chances, such as Severus, when nobody else would, and much of his judgment was sound. Dumbledore would see this ability to forgive as something very rare, but maybe not recognise how it seperated him from most other people.. Its difficult to put into words, but his abilities made him better.. wiser and more calm with events around him. Its one of the things that I admire so much in him.

However... theres also the contradiction to this. Sometimes I think that although Dumbledore has this occasional philosophical outlook on life, he may be cynical of people that spend their entire lives thinking about things... but never actually putting thoughts into reality. So the 'activist' in him would see the notion of second chances as barriers, ideas that may work in some impossible utopia, but are foolish in a world where people often put the need to survive above loyalty and ethics. Maybe he would have taken this view more when he was younger, or at the times when getting something done was the most important thing. Another point... he never really gave himself a second chance, never really gave himself a chance to forgive himself. He strived for self-redemption... but to me he never really seemed willing to give it.. *back onto the point... *

Of course, the teacher in him would see second chances as a necessity to make it through life relatively unharmed. He would realise that an equilibreum had to be reached for people to live happily, risks have to be taken in order for things of worth to be achieved. This side of him seems to be the overriding side, the 'realist' that sees the betrayal of trust by some, but also sees the necessity of trust. This is the side that comprehends the many delicate balances in life, and strives to achieve the best that he can.
..And now diverging a little... this is the side to Dumbledore that on one hand is most realistic, as it seems the least extreme... but if you look closer, is the side to him that so many want to be like; balanced, wise and knowledgeable, but few achieve to be. His ability to put things into perspective and make judgement based on that is abother that i truely admire. He experiences the negatives, but he knows that he can make his own decisions, and there are always brighter days.

***

I was also thinking about the comments on the role he would take in 'the real world' and how that also links in with the ramble above.
I agree that he would prefer a more active role in society, something that would help people, and a role that would give him the benefit of being able to see, and be part of positive change. Government, especially higher up, whilst giving him more control over certain aspects, would deny him the chance to see the effects of his individual actions.. and I really think thats something that he (along with everybody else!) needs to see.
Also in relation to what bookworm_1918 said- the main reason that he turned down the minister for magic position is because of the corruption, something that he knew he couldnt be a part of. But did he see corruption everywhere and just chose the places that it had least effect? Did he see corruption in people? Or in the positions themselves?n

I also mentioned change, so I pose a question to you all (think about it a bit first!!!);
On some level, was Dumbledore afraid of change?
We know he accepted that change had to happen, but did that stop the fear?

I look forward to reading your thoughts on that! Im sure there's other topics and questions in there somewhere as well if we're stuck for discussions...

Ohh before I forget, just a note to the newcomers- If you get a chance have a look at the WAW site which we here at WAW have put together. If you'd like to make any contributions/have any ideas for the site, let me know and Ill happily accomodate you!
"The Wise and the Wonderful" Website
Hopefully I'll have some spare time soon *been saying that for months* and can come up with some challanges for us to do on the thread, and perhaps some bits from that can go on the site. Once again, PM any ideas to me!

Take care everyone!

Clara}~

wow. lol you sure wrote alot , but i enjoyed reading it ( :
well to your question... was he afraid of change....?

well personally i think that he was sort of afraid. i mean he's that kind of person that everyone believed knew everything . he had all the answers . but we all know its because it comes from experience as well . although dumbledore is the kind of man that will take anything that comes his way he probably always has this little thought in the back of his head if its something that he's not familiar with , he might not know how to handle something. as if he isnt careful waht if something goes wrong. but honestly what kind of change are you referring to, because im speaking in a general yet im trying to narrow it lol what kind of change ...? by the way i love all you wrote , very well written (:

Hi clara!! Glad to know the inspiration of this wise and wonderful thread at last!
WAW's site is amazing; I'm having a light read to it right now, and want to say that those poems are really, really brilliant ... they remembered me so much of the moment I read Dumbledore had died, and then all those moments when I thought about him and all the things we had left behind. It's very sad, actually.
I loved all of them, In memory of Dumbledore, Changes and Dumbledore ... very wise and good written.
Wow, now I'm regretful for have changed my piczo account for myspace

Your thoughts and reflections are very deep (oh, wait, my sister has just changed to WB channel, when it's PS going, and ... Dumbledore's there, telling them Gryffindor has won ... That makes me think about the huge difference between the first Dumbledore and the second one, and how it all would be if this man -- can't remember his name -- was still alive).

Back to the topic, I agree with you in many points. Dumbledore's motto, let's say for the lack of a more suitable word, is "always give people second chances, everybody can change and you have to give them the opportunity", but is it valid for him? Has he ever given himself a second chance? Has he ever said to himself "You can do this and you won't be failing again"? Why hasn't he ever given him a chance to work at the Ministry? Your point about the corruption is good, and it'd be even avoiding the question if it'd be the real reason, but he told Harry he'd never accept because he was afraid of himslef, afraid of being tempted again by the taste of power ... so why didn't he never give him the chance to say "Yes, I'll do it for the wizarding world sake" in those moments when the wizarding world needed of him the most?

Because he was safe at Hogwarts, he won't be tempted by the sins of blood, in every sense, besides of he really liked teaching, of course, but even then he could have given a hand to the Ministry in the hard times (and I don't mean precisely with Rufus Scrimgeour, because I never liked that distraction he wanted to created with Harry, and of course not precisely with Fudge. I don't know what exactly I mean, actually)

On some level, was Dumbledore afraid of change?

I don't know what to think ... That leaves me with a lot of doubts, and I can't think inthe way of change that you mean. May you clear me that doubt? I'm pretty confused now.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to have time enough to read those awesome one-shots and letters, they look incredibly interesting. I just read that letter by nevillesgirl, it's brilliant.
Maybe I will contribute with some pics in the future, and I hope the WAW site will be the best soon.

On some level, was Dumbledore afraid of change?
I don't think Dumbledore was afraid of change at all. Dumbledore was wise. We all know this. And he would need to be wise in order to keep relating to the lives of teenagers. He would need to change with the times. He would have to embrace change as a tool of knowledge. Knowledge is constantly changing and he was in love with knowledge. I also think that any man who does not fear his own death but embraces it and plans around it and in spite of it, is a man who also embraces change.



I was thinking the same thing. Dumbledore was willing to give everyone else a second chance except himself. I don't know so much that he was striving for self-redemption...I don't think he was trying to redeem himself by becoming so involved in the lives of others and dedicating his life to stopping Voldemort. I think he genuinely believed in the evil that Voldemort was trying to spread. Voldemort was the next natural progression that Grindelwald would have become had he continued on his path of destruction or should I say had he not been too scared to push the limits of Dark Magic. Dumbledore knew that this way of life was supremely wrong and so this is why he dedicates his life to fighting against it.
I don't think Dumbledore knows how to forgive and therein lies his weakness. Trusting and giving second chances is different from forgiving. I think since Dumbledore never forgave himself for the mistakes of his youth, that he was really unable to forgive others for the crimes they committed. He wouldn't recognize what forgiveness is. He has never felt the release that comes from absolution, therefore he can never really absolve anyone for their crimes either.

just to clarify what you are trying to mean here.. are you saying that since dumbledore could NOT forgive himself for the mistakes he did in his youth knowing that he recognizes it , for anyone else that did committ a crime [which im not sure what kind you are referring to] he couldnt forgive them so he just assumed they didnt know & decided to just give them another chance? im trying to understand what you wrote becuase i think you have a point , im just trying to understand(:

What do you think Dumbledore believed his worst mistake/discision and best action/descision was? Try and think about it a bit, dont just say the death of his sister.. Think, was it before then, or in the many, many years afterwards? (once again, remember, what did HE think)

Frankly, i believe that his worst decision was getting too involved with Grindlewald, or however you spell his name. It probably hurt knowing that it was partly Grindlewald's fault for his sister's death, and it put himself further from his brother. I think that the only thing good that came out of Grindlewald was the Elder Wand, which was won in a duel anyway. But that's just my opinion. I would love to hear more...

hmmm..
before i start, Im practically illiterate today, so ignore the bad grammar etc!

Amanda, I see the points that you're making.. but I don't think i agree entirely.
Firstly, you mentioned about forgiveness being a different thing to giving second chances, and whilst this is true, isnt forgiveness an essential part of giving a second chance? Ok, so maybe you don't always forgive the first mistake, but you give another chance with the hope that somebody will succede enough that you can forgive the first mistake?
Its an interesting point about him not comprehending forgiveness... I suppose everything you've said is one interpretation, definitely a very likely one, but it isnt something that is completely certain... its a side of his character that I've always felt is very ambiguous. I know i let my own 'hopes' cloud my judgement too, I want him to forgive, because its something so few people can do.. and If anybody has the wisdom then he has.

Then, I suppose, the other side agrees with you. If he understood what forgiveness was, he could forgive himself, and rather than dwelling on his and others' past mistakes, he could move on with a clear mind... Do you think that perhaps him being in King's Cross after he died, and his state of 'limbo' came from the fact that he never felt the freedom that comes from absolution?

Secondly, there's this thing about self redemption. Although yes, he deifinitely believed that what Voldemort was doing was wrong- we can clearly see this by the passion that Dumbledore put into the fight, I maintain that on some level, he was searching for forgiveness and redemption.. or taking into account your earlier point, searching for the ability to forgive.
I've just started to wonder... could one of the reasons that he didnt forgive entirely be because he didnt see himself as worthy to pass judgement on others? Who was he to forgive when he had done so much that was unforgivable in his past?
Its just a thought... may be complete rubbish but what the who...

Lastly... on my question about whether or not Dumbledore was afraid of change.. Unlike some of your other points, this is eactly how i want Dumbledore to be, but how i fear he is not. I want him to use his wisdom, harness his power and understand his knowledge.. and not fear change at all.
However, the fact of the matter is, we, and Dumbledore, can accept change, understand that it is something that has to and will happen, and even look forward to change, but somewhere inside of us we nearly always have some level of fear.
Maybe fear of leaving something behing, losing something, or fear that the change will be for the worst. However much i wish it, I don't think that Dumbledore is immune to this fear, especially as he had a kind of fear ingrained deep into his heart and person.
I think he revealed a lot of his fear in the king's cross chapter, and it can be debated in the cave at the end of HBP(?)... He definitely had fear, and fear affects attitudes to even the smallest change, especially when things are 'ok' as they are. What if change reawakens old memories? or brings back a situations that caused fear in the past?
Maybe I'm talking rubbish... I know i havent explained my thoughts even remotely well... but you get the idea, right?

***

DeSs, I use 'change' very generally really. Changes in personal life and status, changes in the owrld around him, changes in attitudes, in general knowledge and understanding, even and especially changes in his own personality.. Hope that helps a little!

Welcome, Amortentia_149 if and when you come back, I look forward to reading your thoughts on the current topic. Im curious to hear some developments on 'the only good thing to come out of Grindlewald', was possession of the elder wand really good, or just a constant reminder of what he had lost his sister, and himself for? And what about the personality changes, do you think that he improved for the better after Grindlewald? what would he be like if they had never met? Definitely not the Dumbledore we know!!

I better go.... look forward to hearing more thoughts!!

Clara}~

Clara Morgue ,
there was something that you wrote that had me thinking here. I'm sorry to all if I get my facts mixed up or wrong , its been awhile since i have been able to read the harry potter books , my friend has not returned them *tears up a bit* , but didnt Dumbledore get Tom Riddle a second chance when he wanted to return to hogwarts ? or he forgave ? something like that ? dear me i cant remember : / but i have a feeling that he didnt . then i'll make two points.

IF he DID forgive him & allowed him back to hogwarts & gave a second chance then maybe he has felt that maybe if he gives second chances but with less expectations from the person to change it wont bother as much ? does anyone understand by what i mean by that ? maybe he's felt (DD) that he made a mistake by allowing that with Riddle , that he would rather just give the second chance without really much of a change to not be disappointed , the way he might have been . who knows , i may be wrong.

now if he DIDNT forgive & gave the second chance , then maybe dumbledore regrest a little not too much, about what became of Riddle ? maybe he gives seconds chances becuase he couldnt to riddle & he has a more difficult time forrgiving himself, yet he tries with others, but its more difficult becuase of what became. i'm not sure if i made at all sense . it makes perfect sense in my head. but what doesnt ?

with that being said of not forgiving giving Riddle the chance back in hogwarts , i have a question that just came to mind... Do you think that Dumbledore feels responsible in any way for the becoming of Lord Voldemort? Do you think Dumbledore had anything to do with him (Riddle) becoming LV? Do you think Dumbledore could have prevented him from becoming who he is ( if you find him responsible & whatnot ) ? Sort of intresting when you think about it .

Once again apologies if my facts or anything i wrote is incorrect . correct me if im wrong , i assume i have something incorrect written : /

Hi nicky potter,

Im not sure what you're refering to when you say he gave Riddle a second chance.. I'm really hazy on some of that section, especially at half 1 in the morning... But I know he refused to give Riddle the chance to come back and teach.. I wouldn't exactly say that was him not giving a second chance though, rather, trying to prevent Riddle from securing a position in which he could do a lot of damage.
However.. If anybody can remember more about the Riddle/Dumbledore past, I'd quite like reminding please!!

As for your questions- Do you think that Dumbledore feels responsible in any way for the becoming of Lord Voldemort?
Yes.. I definitely think that Dumbledore feels hugely responsible.. if not for Riddle becoming a monster, for not being able to stop that monster sooner. After all, he was the one that knew Riddle as a boy and knew what he was capable of, surely he could have done something? We know he carried a lot of guilt, often for things that weren't his fault, or that he couldn't have changed, yet he still felt guilt. Even if he tried, I believe he always thought that he could have done that little bit extra.
Maybe thats one of the curses of being so aware of people around you, or seeing things that others miss, and understanding things that others cannot even begin to comprehend- You feel as though you should be the one to do something, and if you fail it's not because you are incapable, but because you just didnt try hard enough.
Thats how I believe Dumbledore would have thought, but as always, its just an interpretation.

Do you think Dumbledore had anything to do with him (Riddle) becoming LV?
Ok so whereas the previous question was how Dumbledore saw it... this is more facts, right? To be perfectly honest, Yes, I think he had a huge deal with Riddle becoming Lord Voldemort. Don't get me wrong, Riddle was never going to turn out to be a wonderful person, even before he knew he was a wizard he was cruel and obsessive. The thing is, if dumbledore had never 'rescued' Riddle from that orphanage, would Riddle have become a wizard at all? And then there is the way that Dumbledore saw and treated Riddle throughout his entire time at hogwarts. He treated Riddle, as he did all students, with respect, and gave him responsibilities and certain privalages. However, he also constantly kept an eye on Riddle. To anybody else that may have been seen as a kind and caring act, but to one as suspicious as Riddle, it was Dumbledore's way of showing lack of trust.. when Riddle say people failing to trust him he rebelled, maybe in order to show how he didnt need DD's trust. Maybe, this is where his idea of trust as a huge weakness comes from.
So yes, I do think Dumbledore had a lot to do with Riddle becoming Voldemort... but Riddle didnt become evil becauseof DD, its just that his experiences with Dumbledore affected the way that evil manifested itself.

Do you think Dumbledore could have prevented him from becoming who he is ( if you find him responsible & whatnot ) ?
Again, Riddle was always going to reveal himself as this force of 'evil', and nobody, not even Dumbledore could have prevented that. Maybe if he had been loved by parents, taught different things and brought up under different circumstances things may have been different. It reminds me of a Wicked quote- are people born wicked, or do they have wickedness thrust upon them?
As i said, I do believe that Dumbledore helped to 'shape' Voldemort as it were, but it was only through Riddle's interpretation of Dumbledore's actions.. not through the actions themselves. Therefore, whatever Dumbledore had done, Riddle would have taken some negativity from it.. If Dumbledore had acted differently, who can say what Riddle would have become.
Obviously its quite a controversial idea to say that DD moulded Voldemort... but hopefully my explanations make some sort of sense!

***

Very good questions nicky potter! I look forward to seeing what other people make of them, Im up for a bit of discussion! Id also like to hear some of your thoughts on the 'Dumbledore afraid of change?' topic!!

bye for now!

Clara}~

alright then (: i believe i have written something about there around but no harm brinigng it up again

Dumbledore.. afraid of change? hmm . if this question was asked to me a few years before i'd probably say not really. but to be honest seeing how dumbledore became & reading his somewhat life story [written from another view] I'd say that he may have been worried by the thought of change. becuase i doubt that the man who believes that, to the well organized mind death is nothing but the next great adventure, would be afraid of change.

we're talking about a man who everyone turned to when something goes wrong. he was assumed that he knew the answers to everything , he was a savior because the only thing that LV feared asides death was Albus Dumbledore himself. i'm sort of merging a bit off topic maybe? but anywho my point is that he's the kind of person that everyone believed had all the answers & knew everything. but of course like i have mentioned previously the majority of what he knows [& so happen to be right] all come from experiences in his life.

By learning from these experiences Dumbledore may have grown to be the kind of man that can take whatever change comes his way. The only reason that i can sort of think of that might have him a bit fearful is that when meeting with grindelwald & befriending him, they made all these plans on how to change things & "control" & run things. after the incident with his sister's death & the fight he had , he saw SOME of the change that they had in mind, in action. & seeing in front of him what harm it might cause might be what CAN have him a bit afraid.

the fact that there can be unexpected changes they he might not be familiar with & he may feel like he can't handle it, [remembering of that dreadful day of the death of ariana] is where probably not forgiving himself comes in. because of that its possible as well that he likes to keep things on track & tries to make sure that alot stays on the same page if not then before he turns the page , he knows what to expect to handle a situation.( I'm not sure if that made sense. but i have so many thoughts it sort of hard to organize them )

so to summon up my thought of him afraid of change, he tries to make sure that he knows what he's doing becuase to him it seems as if he isnt careful, what if something goes wrong. he just want to make sure that frivolous mistakes dont cause drastic changes either...
does that make any sens? i'd like to hear some thoughts.. if you got all of that


Nickers<3

Thanks Clara,

Personally, i think after Grindelwald left, he realized that although he really enjoyed their time together, that it cost him a lot, and that he knew he had a much better future without someone who dealt with Dark Arts. I think that if he had never met, though, he would be much too different for me to even believe, but it would probably affect Harry so much that he might not even have been born.
Maybe i'm being a little closed-minded on it, as i usually get, but i would like to here some other's opinions... Frankly I'm just happy to be here.

just to understand a bit more where you're coming from what do you mean that it would have affected harry that he might not have been born?

Well, let's say Dumbledore never knew Grindlewald. Grindelwald stole the Elder Wand, meaning he still had it, and he became a very strong wizard who was powerful. What if Dumbledore never dueled him and got the wand from him. Then if Grindlewald happened to come into contact with Voldemort there would have probably been two outcomes:
1. They would have fought each other because they were both a threat. This would be very bad for the Wizarding World, seeing as how it would involve collateral damage, which could have killed Harry's parents, hence him not being born. OR
2. They could have joined forces. This would probably be a death sentence for the entire world, because Dumbledore might not be able to defeat both of them. That, which i'm glad to say it didn't happen, would probably cause Harry to not exist either.

Although, if Grindlewald had indeed not met Dumbledore and vice-versa, Dumbledore would probably have eventually dueled with him. What if Dumbledore didn't win. Although that would mean no more Dumbledore, what if Grindelwald snuffed out Voldemort withe elder wand. Then there would be no prophecy at all, and Harry would be just a normal boy in a world where Grindelwald was powerful.

But there are so many possibilities with this. I know my ideas are very cloudy, but what do you think?

i see what you are trying to say. you're definetley thinking outside here. but um think about this . like Clara mentioned somewhere in her post ... Dumbledore is who is [i believe] because of all the choices and obstacles in the way of his life. including the fight with grindelwald & so on. no if he were to lose then that ould mean everything he did with Riddle, like i just said that Clara mentioned that Dumbledore took him oout of the orphanage, without Dumbledore who else would have tooken him out? without that Riddle would have never gone to hogwarts seeing that he had no guardians & what not & that would have more than likely resulted in no Voldemort. Just a world with a man name Grindelwald & a a powerful wand & i dont think that the prophecy would have resulted towards Grindewald : / so i dont know thats my thought what do you think? & anyone else ho has been readin

Sorry, I guess i didn't think it through that much. I think you're right, with no Dumbledore, he would have never gotten Riddle. But wouldn't somebody else get him from the orphanage. It says in the 7th book that if you're muggle born (Or in this case: in an orphanage) that someone from the school would have gone down to get him. With no Dumbledore to keep him at bay at school, he might have even gone on to teaching! There are so many things that would change if not for Dumbledore's past, but i'm sure that if he had the chance to change it, he might not have changed too much, because it's not the problems that make the person, it's how you get through them. Thanks, though, this is the only place that people have even tried listened to me.

you are right . alot of the things that have happened really depended on the past of Dumbledore & all the present & future actions he does/did. he really was a big part & without him there would have been MANY gaps in this story. & you are welcome , im sure if Clara was here she would tell you that here all opinions matter & i for a fact am willing to keep an open mind for anything & everything anyone writes (: so im glad you feel that way

Oh my gosh, this thread is moving again...finally! I want to comment, especially on the responsibility Dumbledore may have felt for the outcome of Riddle but I have to clear up a few things first.



Awww! I don't know about brilliant but it was fun to write. I hope that you will contribute to the site with fics, and media.


All I am suggesting is that in order to truly forgive someone, you must know what it is like to be forgiven and since Albus kept secret the nature of his association with Grindelwald and the unfortunate outcome of his sister's death, the only person who could forgive him for those actions is himself. He never forgave himself. I also want to suggest that forgiveness and second chances are two different things but I will touch more on that later.


I don't know if forgiveness is an essential part of giving second chances. I know that it is possible to believe in someone's ability not to make a mistake again but there in the back of your mind is always that suspicion that the person is going to go back on his word or choose adverse action. I don't see Dumbledore practicing the 'forgive and forget' concept at all. I think he may have been able to overlook the mistakes of others youths and give them a second chance but to truly forgive them, to absolve them from there wrong doing, I don't think he's done that. He always said he trusts Severus Snape completely, with his life in fact but he never said he forgave him for his actions or behavior. Was the success of Snape enough for Dumbledore to truly forgive him for his mistakes 18 years ago when he recited half of the prophecy to Voldemort and inevitably made Harry an orphan? I don't know, especially if what you said is true about the King's Cross and Dumbledore still searching for absolution. Do you kind of see what I mean? It's a subjective question with even more subjective answers.

Great Discussion guys! I will be back later to answe the other question about Riddle

to me nevillesgirl, around the lst part is what im referring to, when Dumbledore says that he completely trusts Severus with his life but never said anything about forgiving , i always thought that for the reason of doing so is becuase , he can show severus his action that he trust , but he rather not say that he forgives because if snape really wants Dumbledores forgivness then he would work for him to hear it. that way Dumbledore knows that not only is he staying loyal & true on his side & no more lies & betrayal, when the time comes to say I forgive you , its at his "closing". Do you know what i mean? if Dumbledore were to let him know right off the bat & tell him that then, like any person asking for it, they would think "well i have his forgiveness what more do i do". so maybe dumbledore thought of snape like that seeing he is a death eater regardless, with the dark mark etched in his skin. maybe dumbledore thought ahead & decided to make sure that he doesnt mess up & didnt have his trust hurt & or hopes up. does anyone understand what im trying to say? [i know i only wrote a short post but im waiting to read on nevillesgirl's thoughts on Riddle ]

I don't know if that's why Dumbledore left "I Forgive you" until the end and didn't say it earlier. I think Dumbledore trusted Snape and didn't need anything to hang over his head to keep him faithful. Severus did that for himself when he sentenced Lily to death. Snape was always going to be Dumbledore's servant and as Harry said to Lord Voldemort in the final battle. Lord Voldemort lost Severus the second he marked Lily Potter for death. So I don't think Dumbledore needed to do anything else to prevent Severus from waving in his loyalty.

As for Dumbledore being responsible for Riddle's ascent to power. I don't know if we can let that fall on Dumbledore just because of the orphange. For all we know, Riddle could have aged, heard about Grindlewald and found him, learning magic there. There are a number of possibilities, had Dumbledore not shown up. Also, I don't think that Riddle could have stayed away from Hogwarts or the wizarding world. A man that intelligent would've have learned magic anyway possible and more easily than most, so proper schooling wouldn't have even been needed for Riddle. With his superior skill of convincing people to tell him stuff he shouldn't know...he could easily get someone to teach him the Dark Arts, basic magic, etc.

you make a point there could have been ways for Riddle coming to power without Dumbledore , but you have to admitt atleast DD did play a part in this , not his rise to be Voldemort. Besides what if he too were to end up like harry but worse. they were to keep him in the orphanage. besides i think muggles like themselves would have found it a bit odd that they had a wizard in there possession. Do you see where i am going with this? Even if it stayed on course , Dumbledore beat Grindelwald, what if Dumbledore never picked him up out of the orphanage? plus more. you see where im going with this?

& the thing with the snape you made a good point. i have to say. i forgot to think about it that way. that Dumbledore never needed to tell him. but then yet again you'd never know , Death Eaters can be tricky. Snape is the only one that i have seen gone from bad to good in the sense that it was the way he was potrayed.

Hey, I've got to be quick seen as its 3 am...
But just to contribute to a few points-

Nicky potter, I see what you mean about being worried about the thought of change, I guess i just see that anxiety as being derived from fear. Not the sort of fear that stops youin your tracks or changes your course of action, but the type thats a niggling doubt in the back of your mind- fear over the future and what could happen. I suppose this is where what our own personal ideas of fear are come into play.
I do like what you said about where 'frivolous mistakes dont cause drastic changes', its one of the things that I believe DUmbledore was most cautious about, not making silly mistakes that could have hugely negative effects.

Amortentia_149, I think what we're talking about here is very similar to the butterfly effect. Each tiny and massive decision alike determines a certain course of action.. and if you change one tiny detail, who knows where you may end up. I dont know if anybody saw the dr who episode 'turn left'? but as a rather massive dr who fan, i think thats' a perfect, if slightly extreme, example.
The thing about DD, is that he realised that the past is as it was, and it is too risky to go changing certain details.. true, he lat harry and hermione use the time turner in PoA, but he was still very cautious. I also think that's one of the reason's he would never want to change too much about the past, because he understands that whats happened has happened... for a reason, iif you believe in fate.
And to extend that a little further, its one of the things that makes him so calm, he has this ability to accept what has been, and move on- even if only on the surface.

Amanda- As with the fear question, I think eventually this is going to boil down to how we each individually define 'forgiveness'. With Severus, Dumbledore said he trusted him completely, and admitted it to the world. He put Severus' past behind him, and trusted him with the future and whilst i completely agree that he never forgot, i think that the fact that he understood Severus' motives even if he did not agree, put the past behind them, and trusted him with the deepest secrets constitutes forgiveness.
After all, what else is forgiveness? for some people it may be an actual emotion, for others, and idea, and for others, the fact that they are able to move on without forgetting shows that they have forgiven.
True though, it is probably the most subjective question we've discussed so far, after all, forgiveness is something so personal and idividual, maybe thats one of the reasons Dumbledore never actually admitted that he had forgiven Snape, if that was the case.

Ok.. thats it for tonight/this morning I think. I did send a few Pms to some of the older members of WAW and have had a few back saying they'd be with us ASAP, so lets keep things moving until they arrive!!

Oh Im also aware that i havent done the Dumbledore-ette of the month for... ages, but hopefully when we are a bit more stable i can start that back up!!

Take care!
Clara}~

I see what you're saying, and regardless of the fact that i don't dabble into Dr. Who, i happen to know that episode from an argument i had a while back. And as you said, he probably knew that what was done was done, and that he simply couldn't change it without completely devastating all of the time between then and now. And he knew that it was apparently meant to be.

It does also seem, as you pointed out, that it is the reason he is always calm. Now, you say it is because he has accepted all of this and left it be. But... seeing as how he always kept to himself and was a bit secretive, don't you think that in the back of his mind he was always waging a war against himself? Normally people who tend to seek power, or have in the past, don't wear their hearts on their sleeves, seeing as how they don't like to seem vulnerable. Couldn't he always have really felt an immense amount of guilt, because i don't remember him really telling anyone the entire story, so maybe since he never expressed it fully he never found closure.

I know that's very cloudy, but hopefully someone sees a little sense in that, because sometimes my own thoughts confuse me. Although, it wasn't really a question; more of an enigma, or that's what it was to me, just thought i'd share.

I completely understand what you are saying amortentia_149.



I would believe that as well as he understands that whats in the past is done & theres nothing he would want to change, there are times that he always wonder. because any human always has that one word in there vocabulary in there head, "What if...?" . So it is possible that while he sits t his desk & isnt thinking about harrys next step, he always wanders back to his past & probably imagines every scene of his youth differently.

& its true, Dumbledore never really wore his heart on his sleeve, atleast he doesnt wear the emotions that he has when he thinks about his past on his sleeves. he keeps more of the currrent emotions there. Like if hes happy you'll see it if he's mad you'll see it, disspaointed, dfrustrrated, etc. But hewont let the past hold him down in the present & from the future. But i dont think its because of guilt. It was more [in my opinion] like he thought that he doesnt need to tell anyone what has happened in his life. He isnt the kind of man that goes looking for sympathy & pity. He himself believes that he isnt the only person with problems. i mean think about it why would he want to go on about his past if RIGHT now harry potters life is not only happening right in front of him but in front of the whole world & he even sees the toll it takes on harry. why join in with that if he could help harry not go down a path that he amy have once been on but got out. remember we never really knew his life. he only had a friend write an obituary of what he knows.

but you make a point though with the closure. its not that he feels gulity like i have mentioned maybe he felt frustrated towards himself. lets take harry for example. everyoe knows his story, for some reason everyone knows every step he's taken up to the point of Voldemorts death, there are witnesses that can back up anything he says. Dumbledore on the other hand, too many people have different thoughts of him & he really doesnt have people [like he would want anyone to back him up]. he knows his own story & thats enough for him.

interesting thought amortentia_149 , waiting for Clara & older members of WAW to return i have a few questions that i have heard from a harry potter podcast that i hear every week. & they made a good point that i have thought before but forgot.

In the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back Sirius, Lupin, James & Lily.... Why didnt Dumbledore appear? Of all people wouldnt you think he should show seeing that he has the answers? & Also they mentioned how in Goblet of Fire when harry returns from confrontation of Voldemort & Dumbeldore approaches him & harry says that Voldemort took some of his blood to rejuvenate himself, it said in the book that Dumbledore had a look of happiness in his eye. why do you think so? & here is just a misc. question that im not sure if it has been ask : / i've went back a few pages & i cant find it BUT what do you think Dumbeldore truly saw in the mirror of Erise in SS/PS?

Well i'll answer these questions myself later when i can read what everyone else has in mind (:



Nickers<3

Thanks again. Your outlook on these topics are a lot more open-minded than others. I understand what you mean about why he wouldn't want to wear his emotions on the outside: because he had more pressing issues in the present, and he couldn't always mope around about what could have been. He had to be strong, so that others will feel strong.

Also, pertaining to the question you asked about why Dumbledore smiled when he realized Voldemort took his blood, i think that answer can be found in the chapter King's Cross, in the Deathly Hallows.



I know there is more to this mystery, but i believe that it's because it meant that Voldemort was tied to Harry, explaining why every wand that Voldemort used against Harry was defeated. I know others can explain this a lot better, and i myself would want it to be explained better. Hopefully, there will be others who wish to partake in this, and your other questions...

hmmm thank you amortentia, even if others answer that question atleast you tackled it yourself & made a good point . i guees i seem to have forgotten that part from the book but you make the point. the thing is that , it seems like there is so much more to be said about that. but then yet again it can be as simple as you put it. & then again it is Dumbledore & he gets into detail . AH! lol there can be so many explainations.

& what you wrote in your first paragraph is exactly what im pointing out im glad you understand what i wrote becuase as i was re reading i thought i made no sense. but that can b becuase i tend to go on about things & i tend to lose myself but thank you (:

Harry comes to the realization that Dumbledore saw himself with his family as a whole again. Instead of the separated mess it ended up being.

As for Dumbledore not appearing when he flips over the ressurection stone. I believe the answer lies in the chapter titles King's Cross. Harry goes into the world where one choses to go on, stay as a ghost , or in Harry's case go back, fight Voldemort and live with Ginny (haha). Dumbledore, if you remember, was in the world when Harry arrived. If I am not mistaken, Dumbledore waited for Harry so that he could talk to him once he committed that final act of laying his life on the line. This means that Dumbledore was neither dead nor alive, he didn't exist in any world...he was waiting. So when Harry turned over the resurrection stone, only those who had died and moved on came back. Not those that were still waiting (Dumbledore).

And I agree withamortentia_149 about Dumbledore and the happiness in his eye.

And referencing my earlier post...

Regarding Severus. Yes Death Eaters can be tricky, but Severus was no longer a Death Eater once Lily was marked for death. Emotionally he threw in the towel and sided with Dumbledore. Death Eaters may be tricky, but love is even trickier. It can change people in an instant, make people do astonishing things, and allow even the most evil wizards turn good.

Regarding Dumbledore and young Riddle. I still don't quite understand where you are going. If Dumbledore was to leave Riddle alone; as I stated earlier, I think Riddle being the gifted wizard he was would have easily learned magic somehow somewhere. I do not think that a man that intelligent and (for lack of better word) smooth, could have stayed away from the magical world no matter what Dumbledore did or didn't do.

i had the same feeling that it as his family again. but then when JKR announced that he was gay i thought to myself, could it have been grindelwald? now im not trying to be silly, thats not my intention. im being extremely serious. i say that because when he associated with grindelwald he "neglected his family , becuase they both were on the same page of what they wanted & only they knew. so there as no one to interfere between them. so nothing was stopping them, & ususally its like when two people are on a date & they get to know eachother & seeing that they have alot in common it strikes sparks between them. So to me it might be those choices. but seeing how he was potrayed as more of a family person i bet & lean a bit towards that he might have seen his family



Ok i definetley see where you are going with this & you make a good arguement (: but remember as well that although it was all real this was also happening inside Harry's head. Dumbledore is dead & we all know this from the half blood prince. killed by the killing curse. so thats a fact. I will say that if i were to compare Kings cross anywhere its either heaven or limbo as people say. becuase thats how it seemed in the book. so then what ? limbo was inside harry's head? What i think that it might be that Harry THOUGHT he knew what he had to do seeing that when he looked into snapes memory & heard all that Dumbledore said, thinking that he no longer needed to know more , that he knew all, he called those that he really needed & knew what it was like to be killed by Voldemort [again this is my take , my opinion]. & also remember that he was somewhat mad at Dumbledore for not telling him everything & not telling him the prophecy meant that one had to die & etc. When Harry "died" his spirit left for a moment or so, as that is possible, & he seemed to have found Dumbledore in the oddest place kings cross. Dumbledore was dead as its been stated & Harry at the moment is consideredd dead seeing as he was hit. so they met. Im not sure why Kings Cross was the selected place to be [i must re read that chapter again later] but thats my take



I have to completely agree with you there. It is true that love makes people to crazy things & things one never thought it would be possible. & defineltey i'd say too that emotionally he chosed Dumbledore over Voldemort



Thats thing though. How would Riddle have known he was a wizard, sure he'd get a letter but if he didnt know that he was magical would he have tooken it seriously? & SINCE the day that dumbledore took him out the orphanage , he's had Riddle under his wing if you know what i mean. Do you think associating with Riddle in any way like he did helped Riddle think of becoming more powerful than him? Do you see where im going with this?

Whoa! I've missed quite a bit haven't I? These are all very interesting questions everyone. Sorry to have been away for so long but you all know how it is: Summer is Super Busy. Anyway, I will try to answer some of the more recent ones, and I will try my very best to keep up with things.

In the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back Sirius, Lupin, James & Lily.... Why didnt Dumbledore appear? Of all people wouldnt you think he should show seeing that he has the answers?

It is my belief that only the people that Harry felt that he really needed with him, could actually appear. Also I think it was mostly that Harry didn't need answers, he thought that the only thing that he would need in order to feel that he was truly ready to die came to him. Mostly it could have just been a preparation, the others were simply getting him ready for what awaited at the end of his journey. And I don't know if this would really be considered a point to discuss but: hadn't Dumbledore technically already given Harry all the answers that he would need. What with the whole way that he thought things out so carefully? In other words, the right path, based on Harry's choices would come to him 'at the close'.

Also they mentioned how in Goblet of Fire when harry returns from confrontation of Voldemort & Dumbeldore approaches him & Harry says that Voldemort took some of his blood to rejuvenate himself, it said in the book that Dumbledore had a look of happiness in his eye. Why do you think so?

Now that I really think about it, that does seem a little odd, doesn't it? I think that Dumbledore's happiness may have been based on the fact that since a part of Voldemort was already in Harry, because of the scar, then because of what Voldy did, he now contained a part of Harry in him as well: his blood. Of course it does seem like a silly theory of mine, but because of Harry's sacrifice, unwilling as it may have been, Voldy and Harry were now connected mutually, in such a way that, once Harry was killed, Voldemort would then become vulnerable and eventually be destroyed. And because of his sacrifice, and Dumbledore, Harry came back.

What do you think Dumbeldore truly saw in the mirror of Erised in SS/PS?

Hmm. Interesting, okay, so we all know that he lied to Harry when he said that about the socks, but could he really have been lying? Here's what I mean: Dumbledore never really got too much time with his family right; so what if the socks, their warmth, their comfort (both traits he mentioned) represented something to him. The socks would probably represent he and his brother: the connection that he never really had a chance to share with him. Albus and Aberforth in a way were like a pair of socks, exactly. The symbolism may seem a little awry but true. You know although they were complete opposites they shared a goo many qualities.....I'm probably just going to ramble so I'll stop here.
And the simple answer I would have given: he saw his family, him with them, sharing the time and experiences that he never got the chance to in his youth.

What do you think Dumbledore believed his worst mistake/discision and best action/descision was? Try and think about it a bit, dont just say the death of his sister. Think, was it before then, or in the many, many years afterwards? (once again, remember, what did HE think)

I think that if Dumbledore had been given the chance, he would go back and correct a lot of his 'mistakes', but I think that what he would have probably considered the worst would have been to let himself become obsessed. When I really think about it: I say to myself: Dumbledore had a great life, but he also messed up quite a few times; and all his mistakes were mainly based on his obsessions a) he was obsessed with the Hallows and Gridelwald and Dark Arts in general. he let himself become wrapped up in his work c) he sometimes tried too hard d) he obsessed over Riddle AND e) he obsessed over Harry. All these and a good many others eventually became mistakes. Which leads me to these questions:


Do you think that Dumbledore feels responsible in any way for the becoming of Lord Voldemort?

Because of his obsessions: watching him too closely, obsvering everything, taking an interest.... In a way you could assume that he did blame a small portion of himself for being too precatious, and still not cautious enough.

Do you think Dumbledore had anything to do with him (Riddle) becoming LV?

Even if Dumbledore did blame himself, I don't think that he could have had any influence whatsoever in LV's becoming. He was a rotten apple from the start: he saw himself as better, stronger, more powerful. And he did everything in and out of his power to prove that he could do great things "terrible, yes, but great."

Do you think Dumbledore could have prevented him from becoming who he is ( if you find him responsible & whatnot )?

I don't really think that anyone could have stopped him, or changed his thinking, he wanted to have a strong influence over everything and everyone. He thought he was awesome, but no single change or person in his path could have changed him. After all his efforts, he still would have ended up the same.

Very interesting stuff, everyone, I love a good discussion. As I said, it may be a while before I come back so I hope that my responses hold up. And let me just add: If there are any new members: A very hearty Welcome! to you all.

Go DD
Veritaserum14

In the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back Sirius, Lupin, James & Lily.... Why didnt Dumbledore appear? Of all people wouldnt you think he should show seeing that he has the answers?
Well, as someone already mentioned, Harry was no longer looking for answers so that is not what he needed at the time. Harry had come to the realization that he was about to die and so was able to open the ring to find the Stone. What he needed at that moment in time was love and comfort from the people in the world who were most like (or were) parental figures. Although DD greatly cared for Harry and Harry had deep respect for him, it wasn't really a parental type relationship. They were professor and student. Really, the only conversations they ever had were educational or Voldemort related. They never had any heart-to-heart conversations required of forming a parental type bond.

So, although Harry and DD had a strong relationship involving respect, it wasn't the same as the warmth, comfort, and loving relationship he had with the four that did show up upon his using the Stone.

Also they mentioned how in Goblet of Fire when harry returns from confrontation of Voldemort & Dumbeldore approaches him & Harry says that Voldemort took some of his blood to rejuvenate himself, it said in the book that Dumbledore had a look of happiness in his eye. Why do you think so?

This was already answered by someone else who quoted the area of DH. LV gave Harry another safety net by taking his blood with the Love protection. DD felt it would help Harry survive if Harry had done exactly as he did.

Many good points to all that have posted! (: Alright then, Veritaserum14 you can technically say that Dumbeldore did give all the answers but did you find them clear enough? To us we may have thought that, but think about Harry that he couldn't get enough information out if Dumbledore before he died & all he could rely on was what he saw in Snape's memory. But to hear it from the man himself has more truth & meaning to it. That's what I think. Harry thought he knew all the answers becuase everything he saw made sense to him & it seem like it fit all together, so he thought that there was no need to call Dumbledore seeing as he thought he had it all figured out. Again this my opinion & anyone is welcome to disagree or agree with me I am all ears, er, eyes

Veritaserum14 you make another good point. I asked that question, why Dumbeldore had a happy look in his eyes becuase when I heard it mentioned in something I heard I thought about it. Asides from it being the fact that now Harry had like some sort of saftey back up life, don't you think it's possible that he could've thought about something else? Call me crazy but I dont know. Seeing as Dumbledore was a man with many thoughts only he know's what else could have been running through his mind. But then yet again it could just be me thinking madly. It may as simple as what you have all written

& i think I won't argue anymore about the mirror of erise I think it's time to put down my guards & just go with that fact that it had to have been his entire family whole again♥

& once more Veritaserum14 you make another excellent point. It may have been DD extra precautions of his keep a too close of an eye on Riddle that may have put more presssure to a boiling soon to happen situation. Although I don't think any of his keeping close eye was meant to cause any harm. It's just that Dumbledore recognized that interest that Riddle had & the curiosity becuase that may have been how DD was in his youth when he was planning for power. So that's my take.

Insomnia, although Harry never had that parental relationship with DD to have called him up, we can agree on the fact that asides from education & Voldemort Harry atleast someone older to talk to, when not many listen. Even if Dumbledore only listened & talked about what you have mentioned. So the possibilites that i can think of is that Harry, like I have mentioned, thought he had the entire thing figured out. Which may have been what Dumbledore wanted him to think so that he could have ended up in King's Cross


Interesting thoughts & opinions you all had. I enjoyed reading, & can't wait to read more what others have to say!



Nickers<3

Do you think that Dumbledore feels responsible in any way for the becoming of Lord Voldemort? i know this is greatly over-due, but i had a thought.

I believe that in no way does Dumbledore feel responsible. Think about it, dumbledore only did what any other teacher would have done (well maybe not light his dresser in fire or deny him a job) but i don't see how he could have edged it on. If anything (and i know this is a little of the topic of dumbledore himself) but i think that dumbledore felt a little like it was Horace's fault, because, well, part of it was, unfortunately. It makes sense to me, seeing as how he took him out of retirement, but i'm being extremely closed-minded on this subject. I'm probably just gonna go through and read what everyone else has to say

Before I write on, are you basing the things you say from the Half-Blood Prince? Right? Just making sure becuase I have a tendencyof forgetting once in awhile & I'd like to make a good discussion So I'm just making sure...

Well, trying to not to make just a one liner but yeah, pretty much. I've been thinking a lot lately about HBP, just thought i'd bring it up cause i had a weird thought.

Woha, two pages non-read! Well, I did my best in trying to catch up a bit with the topic, and I liked many of the points you're talking about. And great questions! A shame now I have a lot of work to do here, if I really want to say something wise.
Just a little thingy I want to clear: Harry James Potter, is Dumbledore who says "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.", in regarding to Sirius. Good quotes, though!

Now, agree with this:


Despite is kind of an old topic by now, I think you're right, nevillesgirl, becuase the first step to forgive somebody is to be forgiven and to forgive yourself, and since Dumbledore never could forgive himself for the things he did, and the only person who had to forgive him was his brother, who never did so, he couldn't know what fogiveness is. Buut, in the other hand, Harry forgave him at the end, so maybe he could rest in peace precisely for that.

Now, In the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back Sirius, Lupin, James & Lily.... Why didnt Dumbledore appear? Of all people wouldnt you think he should show seeing that he has the answers?

No, because he was determined to die, he accepted his destiny, and in that moment, all he wanted and needed was love, and not answers. I think it's for that, because the Resurrection Stone recalls the dead with the heart and not with the brain. Since Dumbledore was his master, and never kept a relationship so close as his parents, his godfathers (Lupin was almost like his godfather in my eyes), I don't think he would appear. Don't misunderstand me: Dumbledore felt something special for Harry, he cared for him, he did all in his hands to help him, and Harry certainly respected him and more than that; but it wasn't the same.
In fact, what I think is that Dumbledore found in Harry something to replace Ariana, to redemp himself by saving this child for the child he couldn't save ... Is anything of what I'm talking about making sense?

Why do you think so?

Well, I don't know whether you say 'happiness' 'cause you don't remember fully (not blaming you ) or 'cause in the spanish edition is different, but in mines says 'a look of triumph'.
I think that is cos he foresaw the whole thing of what will be happening later, I mean, that Voldemort will kill himself if he kill Harry, cos he enforced the magical bond he had created by leaving a bit of his soul into Harry.

What do you think Dumbeldore truly saw in the mirror of Erised in SS/PS?



(sorry I never put the name of whose the quote, but never learnt how)

Yes, maybe he did saw the socks, and they meant the family he lost and never enjoyed, and all he was missing with his brother, the only one left apart of himself.

Sorry, sorry; I'll be back soon to keep my points, but for now I'll have to leave!

Wow! I come back from my camping trip and there's a whole nother page added to this thread! I'll try to catch up, though, starting with the last few questions! You're right, Veritaserum14, Summer is Super Busy! :-)

Also they mentioned how in Goblet of Fire when harry returns from confrontation of Voldemort & Dumbeldore approaches him & Harry says that Voldemort took some of his blood to rejuvenate himself, it said in the book that Dumbledore had a look of happiness in his eye. Why do you think so?

I think at this point Dumbledore already knew about Harry being a horcrux and already had started making some plans...it was only a little over a year before Dumbledore started telling Harry about the Horcruxes anyways

In the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back Sirius, Lupin, James & Lily.... Why didnt Dumbledore appear? Of all people wouldnt you think he should show seeing that he has the answers?

Like Insomnia said, Lupin, Sirius, James, and Lily were pretty much family (I mean, Lupid was James's best friend, and Sirius was Harry's godfather--DUH! :-P--) and what he needed was comfort. Also , throughout the book Harry had been doubting Dumbledore, getting angry and hearing things about Dumbledore that he never knew about. He began to doubt that Dumbledore loved him...and maybe that trust was mending by the time that Harry saw L, S, J, and Lil, I can't remember (sorry, in the process of rereading the series) but besides that, Dumbledore just wasn't connected in that relative-family-bond kind of way