The Deathly Hollows was a far cry from what I expected, and unfortunately so.
I disliked it so utterly that after I finished it, I sold it back to the book vendor and didn't want to speak about it for months and months. I think I'm past the denial stages, and its what I had worried, I'm not just upset the series is over. I really did genuinely dislike it.

So I'm in search of a forum to discuss my disappointment. Its a difficult endeavor; the poll on this site shows that not even 2 percent of readers were struck by the book the way I was. However, I really need to speak with some like minded people. (I would rather not hear how "wrong" I am. It's my opinion. I'm not looking to hear that you thought it was amazing. I understand that you loved it, but it won't change my mind, and it certainly won't help me work through the issues I had with the book).

Ok, so here's hoping that there are still some anti-Dh harry potter fans still perusing the forums. I hope you haven't all put it behind you.


**I would like to know what you felt was 1) utterly wrong with DH and 2) what you would have liked to have seen. ***

______

I would rather not get into something lengthy (I put it out of my mind, so I don't remember all the details), so here are the biggest issues (and there for, the most memorable)

-- Harry Was Nothing Special. There was nothing that pointed out "why" he should be the main character. He defeated a basilisk when he was 12, produced a patronus at 13, won the Triwizard tornament at 14. What was so great about him? He lucked into inheriting a cloak? he happened to get (if I recall correctly) Draco Malfoy's wand away from him? These are coincidences. I expected the "power he knows not" to be something from within himself, and while I can understand it might have been his willingness to face death, its still not good enough for me.

--Implausible Situations and Lucky Breaks. There were too many coincidences (see above about wand and cloak). The dragon in Gringots springs to mind. So does Ron "remembering and imitating" parsal tounge, and Crab or someone destroying a Horcux by "magic fire" I can't think of any more right now, but I remember actively counting them while I read, and it really tallied up to the point where it was just too unbelievable, even for a fantasy novel.

-- The Run-Around Plots. Quite frankly, I thought that Harry had enough to do finding the Horcuxes and finding a way to defeat Voldy. The plot concerning the Deathly Hollows and the whole mess about Dumbledore's past seemed more like fillers. Thats not even including the never-ending camping trip, which can hardly be considered a plot at all. All of these things to me seemed like fillers. Like JK had nothing else to write, so BSed her way through.

--Big Characters Not Done Justice. 1) IMPO The character deaths were flat. The only one with any emotion for me was Headwig and Doby. Doby because JK made an effort, Headwig because it was a shock (JK said in an interview that she "forgot" all about Headwig, and fixed the situation. We all know how she fixed it. I think thats what bothered me most.) What about George's reaction? And Lupin and Tonks; I didn't even know they were actually dead at first! And that lost the momentum towards any sort of emotional reaction for me. 2) IMPO, Ron had something big coming, but he was a bit of a jerk in the last book. He never got to grow up, and the deluminatore piece was a poor excuse for retribution. 3) IMPO Snape should have had a better reason, other than Lilly Potter. Snape's patronus is a doe! total mussh. He just felt like a stronger character to me, and until I actually read it in DH, I found it laughable. Now I just find it sad. Furthermore, it would have been nice for Harry and Snape to come to some sort of understanding. Another injustice.

_____

I would have liked to have seen Ron grow up, and do something that made him worthy to be Harry's friend. Hermione pulls her weight. What about Ron? JK set him up nicely: hes a master at strategy, is (was) loyal to a fault, and all throughout the book, he was in the background, waiting for his moment to shine. And it WAS his moment, but he fell flat.

I would have liked for there to have been something with the department of mysteries. I thought it was just asking for it. The locked door. .gosh.

I wish there had been something more to Lily that she happened to be loved by Snape. Is that all? Thats IT?

(Oh. Olivander. I thought for sure it would be Ravenclaws wand. But thats not really important, its just wishful thinking from fan who theorized a bit too much.)

Thanks guys, I hope to see some posts! And to all of those who DID enjoy it, I'm very glad for you.

Mod Edit: Hi and welcome to the Veritaserum forums! I hope you don't mind that I changed the title of your topic to something a bit more general.

Well, to be completely honest, although there were many disappointments in the final book of this rather intriguing series, I can't say that I personally would go so far as to returning the book, but what I can say is that I can totally sympathize with you.

I quite agree that:"I would have liked for there to have been something with the department of mysteries"; that the BIG characters were not done justice; and there really should have been more info about the whole relationship stuff this including:the story behind Lilly and Snape, more about the events leading up to Harry and Ginny's marriage( I mean they only dated for 1 miserable year) and furthermore,although come to think of it it was foreshadowed, but even so, why exactly did Ron get with Hermione.

And for those reading this, I am not certain whether or not this is a spoiler since Draco isn't really a major character BUT; it would definately be very nice to know exactly who he married and why?!

As to Harry's character, all of his great accomplishments were not quite so grandly surpassed as they should have been by the death of Voldemort by his own wand (not Harry)

All in all I would definately say that there were some very major mistakes and setbacks and contadictions in this book and it hardly brought justice to what turned out to be a very sorry end indeed.

P.S Welcome to Veritaserum soleil hope this helps

Mod Edit: I removed the spoiler tabs, because our spoiler policy never applied to this forum, and has been lifted in any case. You're welcome to type spoilers now, especially in the DH forum.

Thanks so much soleil - I enjoyed reading your post
I was disappointed with DH also (well with HBP too). I have read the book only once, which differs from the other books in the series. I wanted it to look up quotes but I can’t even find DH – I have no idea where my copy is. DH was a different reading experience. I was not as engaged nor as engrossed in this book as I was with books 1-5. There was a palpable disconnect from the text. Part of my disappointment and dissatisfaction is that I think that the writing is often poor and there was a need for better editing (or the author following the advice of the editors).


As I read about Harry’s willingness to face death, I immediately thought of Aslan’s sacrifice in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Harry’s willingness to face death paled in comparison to Aslan’s more compelling sacrifice. For me, it was a double disappointment because it was derivative and not as well written. I understand that all stories are retelling of a limited number of themes, but it’s dependent on the author to write it well, and somehow make it their own in a unique way.

Agreed. There was a lack of consistency with rules that the author had put in place when creating her world. There was also a lack of continuity across the books. In CoS being able to speak Parseltongue lead to the school believing Harry was the Heir of Slytherin: it was a unique and important connection between Voldemort and Harry. “It’s not a very common gift, Harry. This is bad” (CoS chapter 11 p. 146) Then in DH, Ron remembers and imitates it and it’s successful.

Another example that which troubled me more because of the moral ambiguity of wiping the memories of individuals, was Hermione performing a memory charm (‘Obliviate’ is identified in CoS as a Memory Charm) on her parents. Beyond the ethical considerations, she performs a Memory Charm and then later in the text claims she doesn’t know how.


It is hard to buy Lily Potter as his reason, given that how indoctrinated in the Death Eater philosophy concerning individuals of non-magical parents he was. His love for Lily did not prevent him from willingly and eagerly joining the Death Eaters. Snape was a complex character in previous books but was reduced to a one dimensional pathetic figure in DH. I agree that there was a disappointing lack of resolution between Harry and Snape.


I too would have liked something more about the Department of Mysteries. Not only the locked door but the build-up of the Veil, Harry’s fascination with the Veil, hearing voices beyond the Veil, and Luna’s hints that the Veil links this world with the "world of the invisible" (The soul takes flight into the world of the invisible, and there arriving is assured of bliss and forever dwells in paradise. – Plato) and... nothing

Clambering up on my soapbox at speaker's corner.
As I’ve stated throughout this website (sorry for inflicting it yet again) I was dissatisfied with the resolutions of conflicts in DH. I thought that there would be house unity, redemption for Draco, and long-term lasting changes in the Magical world.

Based on the texts, I thought one of the overarching themes of the series was the need for house unity (also international and magical creature unity).
In GoF, the Triwizard Tournament was re-instated to establish ties between wizards of different nationalities. In his end of term feast dispensation of knowledge, Dumbldore promotes unities.
“ I say to you all once again – in light of Lord Voldemort’s return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided” (GoF chapter 37 p. 627)
In HBP, in the Sorting Hat song, he advises house unity.
“For our Hogwarts is in danger
From external, deadly foes
And we must unit inside her
Or we’ll crumble from within”
(OotP chapter 11 p. 187)

Headless Nick reports that the Sorting Hat always advices house unity in times of trouble: “and always, of course its advice is the same: stand together be strong from within” (OotP chapter 11 p. 189). Nick also reports on the unity of the House ghosts.
“Well, no, you shouldn’t take that attitude,’ said Nick reprovingly. ‘Peaceful co-operation, that’s the key. We ghosts, though we belong to separate housees, maintain links of friendship. In spite of the competitiveness between Gryffindor and Slytherin, I would never dream of seeking an argument with the Bloody Baron.” (OotP chapter chapter 11 p. 189)

The Sorting Hat is again advocating house unity at the start of HBP. “Hat say anything interesting?’ asked Harry, taking apiece of treacle tart.
‘More of the same, really… advising us all to unite in the face of our enemies, you know.’ (HBP chapter p. 156).

Therefore, given all the textual support, I didn’t expect and was disappointed that the recurring theme concerning the need for house unity was abandoned in DH: None of the Slytherins remaining to fight. Also, I found Dumbledore’s questioning Snape belonging in Slytherin and stating that perhaps if the sorting had occurred later Snape would have been a Gryffindor, very irritating as it undermined the idea of house unity and continued the marginalization of Slytherin

I thought there would be more redemption for Draco in DH. In HBP, there was hope of redemption for Draco, as Harry and the reader are allowed to see Draco’s fear and helplessness when he’s crying in Moaning Myrtle’s bathroom. “And Harry realised, with a shock so huge it seemed to root him to the spot, that Malfoy was crying – actually crying – tears streaming down his pale face into the grimy basin” (HPB chapter 24 p. 488)
Harry and the reader are also allowed to observe Dumbledore’s belief in Draco, his offer of mercy and Draco’s inability to kill Dumbledore.
“ ‘you are not a killer’…
Malfoy did not speak. His mouth was open, his wand hand trembling. Harry thought he saw it drop by a fraction-“
(HBP chapter 27 p. 553)

Draco, as a leader in Slytherin, could have played a part in uniting all the houses, as a means of receiving redemption and yet didn’t. I was hopeful when I read that Draco was the master of the Elder wand (as convoluted and contrived as that sub-plot was), there was an opportunity for him to earn redemption. But that hope was dashed. While Harry was allowed to see that Draco hated having to torture people, the hope of redemption for him that was glimpsed in HBP was never fully realised in DH.

And related to this is my disappointment that the Wizarding world has not fundamentally changed despite Harry’s defeat of Voldemort. In the epilogue, beyond the superficial and cliché, it appears that there has been no lasting long term change. Slytherin House is still condemned by the Wizarding World. One-fourth of the innocent 11 year olds, who are sorted into Slytherin are destined to be “evil”. There is still no house unity, and the the perception of distrust and suspicion of Slytherins lead to the discontent and conditions for the rise of the next Dark Lord. Harry’s statement that it’s all right to be sorted into Slytherin is immediately invalidated by the cope-out that the Sorting Hat will allow little ASP to choose between Slytherin and Gryffindor.

Some very good points made! This is an excellent topic, soleil!

My first reaction to the book was positive, and I remember only too well how dismayed I was after talking to people from VTM through MSN afterwards and learning that many people really disliked it. I think the worst of it was that I could see why they did.

It wasn't nearly perfect. There were big parts of it that annoyed me, of which the greatest annoyance was that of the lucky breaks and implausible solutions, but overall, I bought into the basic themes J.K. Rowling was attempting to communicate, and that saved the book for me.


To me, these two concerns are linked. The Deathly Hallows plot was what made Harry special.

All through the series, I couldn't help wondering why Dumbledore, being more or less Voldemort's equal in magical talent, couldn't destroy him and be done with it. Why Harry? Deathly Hallows explains this perfectly.

Harry specialness lies, not in his magical ability (because he's definitely not the most talented, magically, of all the wizarding world), but in the fact that he does not seek power. Voldemort's essential evil is his desire for power. By juxtaposing Dumbledore with both Harry and Voldemort (through Dumbledore's coveting of the Deathly Hallows), we see why fighting fire with fire isn't the answer to evil. Harry has to realise that the only way to defeat the evil of desiring power is to relinquish power - not to pursue the Deathly Hallows in a vain attempt to defeat evil by magical means. That makes him special. His situation determined the choices he had to face, and his specialness was shown by the fact that he made the selfless choice. Both Voldemort and Dumbledore failed in this, essentially.

So the Hallows and Dumbledore's past are, in my opinion, quite relevant to the most important theme of the book. They help to explain why it had to be Harry.

Your other criticisms - the implausible situations and lucky breaks and the big characters that weren't done justice - I wholeheartedly agree with. Except perhaps with Snape, but I'll come to him in a second. Harry's horcrux connection that gave him just-in-time visions of where he'd find the horcurxes was laughable. And I still have difficulty thinking about the unceremonious death of Lupin and Tonks, and Fred's death, which served no purpose other than to shock the reader. That's lame.

Snape's love for Lily was something I had suspected since reading book 5, so it was not new to me. I thought it was very redemptive, in a sense, that he fell in love with a girl despite her being a Muggleborn like his dad and before he learned about hating Muggleborns like the Death Eaters at school did. As an adult he had no real reason to choose the "good side", apart from a love he formed when he was still relatively innocent. It preserved a faint childlike quality in his shadowy soul, and instead of reducing his character, I feel it enhances his complex nature. The fact that he loved a Muggleborn is therefore, in my opinion, both plausible (and redemptive in its innocence) and paradoxical as he is.

I thought Snape's death was awesome. It concluded his life so perfectly tragically. The understated nature of Voldemort's disposal of him was such a powerful continuation of how life had treated him, and yet he stayed true to his task, murdered with the mask he wore because he was the only person capable of wearing it.

Moving on to house unity, I have to agree with you, vega, that the Slytherins were treated disgracefully, and I think J.K. Rowling would have done well to include them in the victory, and not just have the Malfoys looking confused and out of place during the celebrations. (Although that was brilliantly funny!) Since Dumbledore was a great moral voice throughout the series, his comment about Snape certainly suggests that the author thinks that Gryffindor is a better house to be placed in than Slytherin. The other evidence you cited confirms this, and it certainly contradicts the unity and acceptance theme. A possible defence could be that Slytherins are, by their very nature, against unity because they'd step on others to get what they deserve, but it's not a very convincing argument, and such an argument could be made of each of the houses' special traits.

I have read Deathly Hallows twice all the way through as well as having read bits and pieces, and I am in the happy situation of still liking the book well enough. It's definitely not my favourite book of the series, but like I said, I bought quite easily into many of the themes J.K. Rowling focused on, and being myself disinclined towards detail (which helps me ignore the irritations), I find that I can live with this being the final instalment. Except the epilogue. Please spare me the epilogue!

First, I would just like to say how pleased I am to find such tolerance here on this site. You couldn't even guess at how many others I've attempted this at. I consider it polite to just ignore my griping. Here, I have three wonderful, well thought out, intelligent responses. I'm very grateful. Thank you.




Capricorn, I have never thought of it like this, and you make an excellent argument. I can see now that this WAS Jo's point. In fact, that was her point in the first book as well. It really came full circle, Harry didn't want the philosopher's stone for power, and he didn't want the Elder wand either.

However, I still feel like JK's execution of this was absolutly pitiful. There was too much plot. It felt like a rough draft. You can’t possibly cram in that much sub-plot, whether it has a point or not, into that many pages.

I believe Jo’s biggest mistake was the introduction of Horcruxes. Harry’s connection to Voldemort, and Voldy’s attempt at immortality could have been explained by something much simpler, and it would have cut out a big part of that messy plot. Jo could have devoted the whole book to explaining Harry's attitude towards power, and how that was the power he knew not. IMPO, she failed at that, because I, the reader, had a very hard time sorting that out of all the rubbish DH also included. The result was a sloppy and incoherent plot, which also opened the door to unbelievable coincidences and inconsistencies (Hermione and the memory charm, Jk forgetting about Headwig and having to kill her to make it fit the plot).

More importantly, it also limited the space Jo had to include things that would have really made the story shine. The biggest ones of these have already been mentioned: The death chamber, a fantastic sketch of an idea was never brought to fruition, and –even more importantly—Vega’s point about House Unity.

This is one of the problems I had that I forgot to mention in the thread starter, but Vega put it more eloquently than I would have, (and better referenced too!), so, good.

All through the books, Dumbledore reminded us that the important thing was the choices we made. You can’t be told when you’re eleven that you’re evil because you’re in such and such’s house. That’s the real problem I had with Tom Riddle being the heir of Slytherin. It just perpetuated the idea that you’re born evil. I would have loved to have seen some Founder’s background that showed Sly in a good light, or even better, that showed Gryffy in a negative light.

Malfoy never being redeemed is another huge one. Jk DID set him up for it! And she wrote sooo many opportunities for him to change his mind. Maybe that was her point, to keep him “choosing” the wrong side. But it would have been much more poignant for his character to choose *good.*



Snape. Gahh. His redemption would have served this purpose (even if he acted like a bit of a pansy, impo). Dumbledore saying this completely ruined Jk’s headway on a theme that she obviously didn’t have the gumption to bring full term (but she most certainly intended to in the beginning).

JK limited herself. Somewhere along the line, she lost sight of what it was she set out to accomplish. She forgot the story she was trying to tell as other things (plot, and outside forces) got in the way. It became overly complicated and messy, and not on par with her earlier books. And if you can sort through the clutter of it all, then, yes, it is a good story. But, IMPO, because you're forced to find the point through all that chaos and untidyness, it was not the best ending for the series we fell in love with.

Excellent points made by everyone! I agree with Capricorn...excellent topic, soleil.



I, too, agree that there seemed to have had way too much going on in this final installment. The horcruxes just seemed to push the plots/subplots over the edge. I can see how she tied most things together nicely, but some things were kind of left out in the cold. It's been a while since I've read DH so nothing is coming to mind right at the moment. Honestly, I was a bit disappointed that Harry defeated LV because Harry was the true master of the Elder Wand. Just seemed to fall short of JKR's usual flair and dramatics. It just felt flat to me. I have to say, though, that I completely agree with Capricorn about it showing Harry's true strength in him not wanting power, as opposed to LV, and why it had to be Harry to defeat LV. That I can see, and it makes perfect sense.



In a way, I think JKR did try to redeem Draco a bit. When Crabbe and Goyle were after Harry and Co. and trying to harm/kill them, Draco was trying to stop them. Granted, he was wanting to take them to LV himself, but he didn't want to kill them. Not to mention, he mainly wanted to take Harry to LV in order to help his mother and father. He was doing it out of love and concern for his parents, not because he was "evil" or anything. I think we got of got to see that Draco really did have a heart. The first several books never showed us that side of him. It wasn't until The Lightning Struck Tower scene and RoR scene in DH that showed us he did have a softer, somewhat good side. Granted, I wish we could have seen more. I, too, had visions of Draco leading the Slytherins in a stand against LV thus uniting all the houses. Unfortunately, JKR did share that same vision.

Ok, In relation to the Hermione memory charm thing. It wasn't a mistake, Jkr has been asked this very question. Thought you guys might like to see as it would clear this up for you!!

I love the description that DH was "clutter", "overly complicated and messy" "chaos and untidyness". This describes my feelings towards the book very well.

I also like the idea that "the wheel has come full circle" (King Lear) and Harry didn't want the Philosopher's stone in the first book and he didn't want the Elder Wand in the last book: it was Harry's capacity for love and not a thirst for power that allowed him to defeat Voldemort. I was totally into this theme that Harry has a pure heart: Dumbledore expresses this theme at the end of OotP, as the reason Voldemort couldn't possess Harry in the Ministry of Magic.
" 'You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!' said Dumbledore loudly. 'The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort’s! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven'. " (HBP chapter pp. 247, 248 Raincoast)

This lead to my disappointment that Harry didn't appear to remain "pure of heart" in DH. I was disconcerted that Harry was prepared to deceive Griphook, giving him Gryffindor’s sword in the Gringott’s vault that Harry knows is a fake. " 'We tell Griphook we need the sword until we get inside the vault, and then he can have it. There’s a fake in there isn’t there? We switch them and give him the fake.' " (DH chapter 25 p. 409)
And then Harry plans to be deceptive about when he will give Griphook the sword. "Harry made the offer, careful to phrase it so not to give any definite time for the handover of the sword." (DH chapter 25 p. 411)
I was very disappointed and it seemed contradictory to the "pure of heart" theme, when Harry used an Unforgiveable in Gringott's. "Harry raised the hawthorne wand beneath the Cloak, pointed it at the old Goblin and whispered, for the first time in his life, 'Imperio' (DH chapter 26 p. 428).

edited addition - Harry also uses an Unforgiveable, the Cruciatus curse on Amycus when he spat in McGonagall's face. Harry's reaction is too extreme for the provocation.
"And he [Amycus] spat in her face.
Harry pulled the Cloak off himself, raised his wand and said, 'You shouldn't have done that.'
As Amycus spun around, Harry shouted, 'Crucio!' " (DH chapter 30 p. 477) end of edit

Even though I agree that Harry's specialness does not lie in his magical ability, and that he is not the most talented wizard, my perception from DH (and sorry I have nothing to back it up at present) was that Harry was portrayed as an almost incompetent wizard.


I am a big proponent of the "author is dead" (sorry I can’t cite the quote) approach to post-publication of pronouncements, interviews, and postings. It’s a small thing about Hermione and the Memory Charm mix-up in DH. I was more concerned about the moral ambiguity of Hermione modifying’ her parents' minds. However, the incident does support my original point that there is a lack of good editing, as well as soleil’s statement that DH feel's like a "rough draft" rather than a tight cohesive polished finished work.

Based on the text, as written by JKR, Hermione states that she uses a charm to modify her parents' memories.
" 'I've also modified my parents' memories…
"Assuming I survive our hunt for the Horcruxes, I'll find Mom and Dad and lift the enchantment. If I don’t – well, I think I've cast a good enough charm to keep them safe and happy.' "(DH chapter 6 p. 84). (bolding mine)

And then later she states she has never performed a Memory Charm
"But I've never done a Memory Charm.'
'Nor have I,' said Hermione, 'but I know the theory.'
She took a deep calming breath then pointed her wand at Dolohov's forehead and said, 'Obliviate.' (DH chapter 9 p. 199).

Casting a charm to modify memories sounds like a Memory Charm.

I love coming back to this topic to see such amazing responses! Thank you all!

Insomnia, I noticed you reading it a while back and am so glad you decided to post!

I absolutely agree with you! The final confrontation between Harry and LV most certainly lacked JK's '"flair for dramatics." I think the reason for this is that in JK's mind, the real climax was Harry's death scene in the train station. Its there that he discovers how he "wins" and why he ultimately beats LV. And quite frankly, LV isn't so scary once you've seen his lump of baby soul. (horribly horribly creepy, however).

If this truly WAS intended to be "the" climax, I think she pulled it off as far as flair and dramatics goes. And I think that it really did tie it all up nice and neat. BUT (and this is a big but) I think that if she intended this as the climax, there should have been a way for Harry to finish the conflict at this point in the story. I don't presume to know how this would have worked, but IMPO she should have spent less time in between the train station and the finally.

The problem I find with it is that you get to that peak in the story, and you say "oh, it all makes sense! Now we can finally get LV once and for good!" but then, there's a big amount of time in between where harry comes back to the school, and everyone fights, etc, etc. Then, the moment we've been waiting for for 17 years comes, and its bang, boom, "gochyour wand!" its over.

The thing is, it felt like she was leading up to something with that entire bit between the train station scene and the final confrontation. There's waaay too much build up and not enough oomph with Harry and LV.

As much as I disliked the fact that Harry beats LV by lucking into possession of the Elder Wand, I think it could have worked. It COULD have worked, had JK written the final battle between the death eaters and the good guys, THEN harry goes to face his doom. After the train station scene, we should have had instant gratification with a Harry and Voldemort show down then and there. The train station chapter would have had a carry over effect, so the "flair and drama" would have been there, and she could have Harry beat LV with his own wand too.

Alas, it wasn't meant to be. JK sets us up for a lot without coming through for her readers.

Which brings me to insomnia's next point about Malfoy. Yes, JK does show him in a better light. He is trying. But its not enough. Like Vega said in her earlier post, the Slytherin's needed to be redeemed. JK's final vision concerning Malfoy and the Slytherins in general simply don't do justice to the last six books. This plot line was clearly amounting to something, and over and over again, there are multiple references to 1. the choices you make determining who you are and 2. house (and global) unity. JK simply did not come through for the readers. She may have put forth some effort, but it simply wasn't enough to send home the message.

Vega's point about Harry's pure heart bit is also related. JK once again set up something that she just did not bring to fruition:



JK absolutely sets up the idea that Harry has very strong moral fibers that put him on a level above everyone else:

1) In the fifth book, Harry is incapable of preforming the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix, because he cannot hate her enough to preform the spell, even though she just killed one of the most important people in his life and his last chance of a parental figure. He just CAN'T.

2) In the sixth book, Harry again attempts an unforgivable on Snape, the murderer of his friend and mentor in (at the time) cold blood while Dumbledore was completely helpless. And this is a man who has tormented Harry for years and years. Harry DOES hate him. and (I think I recall correctly) he can't do it. And Snape says to him "No unforgivables for you, Potter." (even if Snape stopped him before he could complete the spell (which might have been the case, I can't remember) I thought this was foreshadowing, not just Snape taunting him.)

I thought for sure that these two incidents had a specific meaning in regards to Harry's character. These two attempts at unforgivables, along with the countless moral high roads Harry has taken (i.e. Saving Fluer's sister in the Tri-wizard tournament), proved that there was something about Harry that made him different.

Apparently not. Harry is just as capable as preforming unforgivables and behaving immorally and deplorably as the next wizard. There is nothing different about him (aside from, as already mentioned above, how harry does not desire power).

So, back again to the first complaint:
Book 1: Hes the first in a century to play his first year on a Quiddich team and defeated Voldemort as a baby. He also saves the Philosopher's stone because he has such a good heart.
Book 2: He kills a basilisk at 12, because, as a true courageous Gryfindor, he can pull the sword out of the hat and is so good a person that the phoenix comes and cries for him.
Book 3: He produces a patronus at 13 because he believes in himself, and saves a murderer's life because its "the right thing to do"
Book 4: At 14 he wins the tri-wizard tournament, which can be attributed indirectly to the Black Lake incident.
Book 5: He finds out that hes the ONLY one who can kill LV. (quite frankly, he has issues in this book and isn't at the top of his moral game, but I think this is acceptable because of Cedric and all)
Book 6: Dumbledore becomes his mentor, AND he tells off the Minister of Magic because he (rightly) doesn't agree with his politics.
...and then what? He doesn't want power? that seems
a little....bland.

The example that stands out most to me is Harry's accomplishments in the sixth book. Now, it might not seem like much compared to the others, but do you think YOU would be able to so strongly and eloquently disagree with THE Minister of Magic? He was so poised! So in control! Harry was becoming a man.

Did he actually get to that point, though? What happened to our lead character with strong moral fibers and a back bone to boot? He became a sly, cunning man with poor morals, little ability to lead, with (as Vega has said) “incompetent” wizardry skills. Ron too. What HAPPENED to her characters?

The only character that really seemed to shine was Hermione! And, quite honestly, I thought that by the end of the sixth book, she really had it coming. Now, not everyone will agree with me when I say this, but IMPO, Hermione’s character, over and over again, has been manipulative, deceitful, and a little too full of herself.

I think I'll take a page from Vega's book and get up on my own soap box:

Examples of this include, but are not limited to: 1). she shoves her S.P.E.W visions on elves that obviously (to anyone but her) are tormented by the very notion. 2) she acts like a vindictive child throughout the Ron fiasco during the sixth book, 3) she discovered Rita’s animagus abilities and instead of alerting the authorities (which I thought was the first thing Hermione would have done!) she kept her in an unbreakable jar for at least a summer (it could have been longer, I don’t remember) and then BLACK MAILED her and 4) In the fifth book, she—smugly—brought Umbridge into the forbidden forest so the centaurs could take care of her. While there, she insulted the centaur herd because she is completely oblivious to their feelings. Although we never see it, this probably causes even more trouble for human-centaur relations and ruined any headway Dumbledor had made. (and here, she's supposed to be so "concerned' about beings (i.e House elves) rights)

Do the ends justify the means? Her heart might be in the right place, but for the most part, she acts iin ways that are self-centered, if not downright immoral, and is so very superior about all of it.

I expected JK to take her down a notch or two in the seventh installment. I understand that not everyone will feel like this, and I actually really like Hermione’s character. But at the same time, it is difficult to have anticipated the moral about-face that Hermione’s character goes through in the seventh book. She becomes an all-knowing angle, the only friend Harry needs through the camping trip of doom, and quite frankly, I just don’t understand WHY. (And my stance on this is strengthened by my opinion of how JK wrote Ron’s character in the seventh book.)


I’ve written a book. Now seems like a random place to stop, but I’m spent.


PS. Miss Minerva, thank you for your input, but if JK stated this after the fact, the point is moot, even if she had a good explanation. I still consider this as evidence of poor editing.

My overall reaction to DH was that i loved it. Though there was a few things that i wasn't complately happy with.

-There were a lot of times when i could kid of guess what was going to happen. The one thing i liked about the HP books was they kept you guessing. Like i could just tell the ministery thing was going to go wrong. And with gringott's, it was going downhill as soon as they entered Diagon Alley. Basically in those instances, i could tell what was going to happen (Even the dragon part-we all saw the picture of the delux editition, right?) and it sort of took down the element of suprise, if that makes sense.



-I was confused with the Kings Cross chapter. Many people may get it, but i had to read it twice (Not the first time-i wanted to know what happened, but later of course ). I was just confused as to what had just happened, where on earth malfoy of all people came into it, and overall ... eh, it sort of toned down the final confrontation between harry and Voldemort in my opinion.

-I didn't really see the trio acting together as one really. Like, when they're all traveling together, they're all snippy with each toher and evetually depend onfood to get them in a good mood. And leaving all the cooking to Hermione i felt was a bit sexist (But i think that's just because i'm a girl). Harry and Ron's argument shook me (I have to admit, as sad as that was, that was one of my favourite part's) and we didn't see them all working together much.

That's all i can think of for now. Like i said, overall i loved DH. It was just a few things that bugged me.

I didn't care for DH.

(1) The scene where Voldemort dies is a real let down. He essentially committed suicide! (the spell backfiring on him). I expected Rowling to have written a more detailed account of Voldemort's demise at Harry's hands.

(2) I didn't want to see Harry with Ginny, let alone married to her! Ditto for R/Hr. OBWF wasn't what I wanted to see happen.

(3) I didn't like Rowling killing a lot of the good people off just because she can! And, then there's poor unsuspecting Hedwig! But, had she killed off Ginny, I wouldn't be complaining!

Very thought provoking post soleil. I mangled only a small part of it with my responses - I will have to revisit it for another go.
Thanks so much for fleshing out what I was trying to express. I too thought that Snape was still trying to instruct Harry when they meet as Snape is fleeing Hogwarts after killing Dumbledore. I thought Snape was both acknowledging Harry’s goodness (in a backhanded way because he is Snape) and continuing to teach and instruct Harry on how, and in this case, how he should not try to kill Voldemort. " 'No Unforgiveable Curses from you, Potter!'… 'You haven’t got the nerve or the ability' " (OotP chapter 28 p. 562 Raincoast)
Not only did it feel like Snape was instructing Harry about Unforgiveables but also still instructing him about Occlumency and nonverbal spells. " 'Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!' sneered Snape…"(HBP chapter 28 p. 562). Harry’s inability to perform either nonverbal spells but especially Occlumency were themes that were given a build-up starting in OotP. Harry’s inability to perfect Occlumency contributed to Sirius’ death. At this point in the series it felt like Harry needed to acquire these skills.

This scene between Snape and Harry in HBP is intense. I felt that some sort of intense confrontation between Snape and Harry was needed in DH to resolve the conflict between them and for Snape to achieve redemption. It felt underwhelming when Harry watched Snape’s memories in the Pensieve instead. I also thought requesting to look into Harry’s green eyes was maudlin and trite.
he is loyal also " 'You must have shown me real loyalty down in the chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you' " (CoS chapter 18 p. 244)
. Most of the tri-wizard judges feel Harry's need to save all of the hostages shows "moral fibre" (GoF chapter 26 p. 440)
Perhaps this book was his nadir on his hero's journey - or perhaps book 6 where he certainly was acting like a right berk in parts of it.
. He was slighly Dumbledorian in his interaction with Scrimgeour in the Weasley garden: clear-sighted in seeing Scrimgeour's real purpose in coming, reassuring the adults he would be fine, keeping his temper, being pleasant and polite while dealing verbal blows. You're right, it was masterfully done.

.I am conflicted about the whole SPEW thing – not that it really matters because Hermione forgot all about it. While I certainly understand and agree with the view that the house elves were highly offended by her posturing, I thought that other characters were also beating this message about the unfair treatment of magical creatures by the wizarding world into our heads for a reason.
In GoF Sirius states 'If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals' (GoF chapter p. 456). I did find it hard to reconcile what Sirius said in GoF with how he treats Kreacher in OotP (note: 'inferiors' is a poor word choice)
Dumbledore talks about Kreacher 'Kreacher is what he has been made by wizards, Harry' (OotP chapter 37 p. 733)
Too lazy to look any more up, but it did feel that once again there were too many instances of the treatment of magical creatures being an ISSUE that just dissipated in DH.

I found Hermione leading Umbridge to the centaurs particulary loathsome because of the cold-blooded premeditated maliciousness of it. It was very calculated and it almost backfired on her - or rather on Harry, because the centaurs note he was almost a man and not a "foal".
Given my feelings about the Umbridge incident, I may have to rethink the "Ron fiasco". I originally thought Hermione was out of character in HBP as I didn't think she was so vindictive and spiteful. Add in the Rita Skeeter episode and perhaps Hermione is more vengeful than I might have considered.
I also found Hermione confunding McClaggen during Quidditch tryouts, so that Ron would make the team rather dodgy. She makes it worse when she gets very morally superior when she thinks Harry has given Ron Felix Felicitas before the Slytherin match.

I think you might be asking to much from DH. I think it is just meant to finish a series and tie some loose ends. The story could have easily have ended in book 6 adding a chapter or 2.

Rowlings really had little margin of operation in book 7, so you cant really judge this book by itself.

I think she actually gave way too much information mainly because of the young intended audience.

I agree wholeheartedly with samie. JKR wrote this book, trying to fill in the missing links to please the fans, but obviously she's not going to be able to make everyone happy. Don't you think it's a bit much to be disappointed with all the things you've listed? I can only imagine how incredibly hard it must have been for JKR to write DH with all the demands for a R/Hr relationship, H/G rekindling, Harry defeating Voldemort, none of the trio dying ... it must have been so hard for her to make some decisions, and yes, I do feel that some things weren't tied up very well in the end, but everyone is going to be annoyed with something. I'd rather the R/Hr relationship began at the beginning of DH, but then I think about whether the book would be a bit too perfect if that happened. If she'd written everything the way I wanted, I don't think I'd find it nearly as entertaining as I did. I laughed, I cried, and I think that's what made it so perfect - the fact that it wasn't perfect. That might not make sense, but I think having those little bits of the story that you didn't like always makes the book complete. It always gives you something to think about, and I'm really glad she didn't do everything my way.

Mod Note:

Nymphadora Lupin and samie, I would like to refer you to the opening post:



This thread was intended as a place where people could discuss the defects of Deathly Hallows. I understand that you enjoyed the book and feel like defending it, but there are scores of threads where you can talk about why you liked it, like the What did you think of DH? thread, for example. This topic was left open and not closed as a duplicate of that thread because its specific intention is different: to discuss the disappointing aspects of the last book.

For posts in this thread to be on topic, therefore, requires them to discuss the issues people have with the books. That could include defending certain aspects that bothered others, but it has to be text based and objective. The focus is on the bits that J.K. Rowling got wrong. Saying, for example, that J.K. Rowling had a lot to think about has, in this context, very little to do with why Voldemort's death scene wasn't acceptable to some readers.

So, put bluntly, this means that unless posts critically discuss certain aspects of the book that can be seen as disappointing, they would be off topic, which is against the forum rules, of course.

Soleil, you aren't alone! I'm so glad you started this topic.

I agree with every single one of your issues with DH. It was extreemly messy and poorly writen. Moon(I luv you Luna), I too had to re-read the entire ending, not because I wanted to experience it again, but because it was so completely confusing. The "lump of baby soul" (hah Soleil!) was hard to wrap my mind around. I think that JK could have used
a much better metaphore for Voldy's soul. (Or at the very least, she could have written it more clearly so you weren't like "what? whats going on? baby? what?")

And Soleil is absolutly correct about the let down of the final battle. It was very anti-climatic. And, the explaination JK gave about the wand being malfoy's and how it changed hands and was harrys and etc. seemed like she was just groping in the dark for a way to tie up the plot. Did anyone else think that if the wand lore was such an important part of the final result, maybe Jk would have done better to introduce it earlier? I was just very confused. Anyone else have to re-read that section?

What I was really hoping for wasn't a confusing plot twist that finished LV off, I really wanted a spectacular ending. I tripped over her explaination and it took away from it to the point beyond repair. It really ruined it for me.

I would also like to say that I absolutly hated the never-ending-camping trip. I agree with
Moon in that it was a bit sexist that Hermione did all of the cooking, but then again, JK can be fairly sexist in the way she treats all of her female characters. but thats a discussion for another time.

What I really disliked about it was that it went on forever! I had to drag myself through it, and I've NEVER been bored by anything that JK had written in any other book. The one thing that I've always liked about JK is that she really sucks you in, you know? You can't help but keep reading, even if its 3 in the morning! You're just compelled to. And I had to struggle to read a good portion of the seventh book, the last one, the one that we had all been waiting for. That contrast is one of the reasons I hate DH so much.

I feel like the whole entier point of it was to get Ron to leave the two of them, and I agree with Soleil, it was unexpected and it didn't seem like the Ron I know.

Can anyone answer these: 1)What was the point of Ron being such a jerk anyways? 2) Was there a point for the giant camping trip other than to give Ron an oportunity to dicth them, and to make all of the readers miserable?

I have to admit, the camping trip was the part of the book i didn't like the most. It was just the way we had to endure it for ages (Like you said) and the fact that i said-we didn't get to see the trio working together as the team we've come to know and love.



I agree about the miserable part-that totaly made me feel so sad, i almost cried. I think JK put the Ron leaving them thing in there, to make people realise that there was always a chance they would leave him, and then it finally did. But seriously, Ron leaving?! I never would've expected it of him. This is Ron we're talking about (I don't know about any of you, but i love Ron a lot).

The camping trip was the most disappointing thing for me in DH. Like i said, i can't believe that they depended on food for happiness.

I only had two basic problems; overall I liked it, I was pretty okay with the book. I probably had other annoying details, but this is all I can think of at night:

1) The whole camping thing. I hate camping tales like that, I just have a hard time imagining them being real, unless it's on a deserted island or something. I don't know why, but I found it... unrealistic. I was also upset about no Hogwarts... that changes everything. But hey- that's how it is, and I have a hard time imagining it otherwise too.

2) I don't like the way it ends. I find it extremely cheezy, not the epiloque itself, but how JKR sticks with all the canon ships and makes Rose look like Hermione, Hugo be like Ron, James be like James, Lily be like Lily, and Albus be like Harry. It's jsut so canonly annoying! I hated that, how they all stuck with their highschool relationships- though I did want Harry/Ginny and Hermione/Ron together, and I'm glad Luna and Neville and Draco found other partners. And the most annoying thing about that, is Albus. I have nothing against Albus, I just hated, hated hated hated how JKR made Albus seem like a... a favorite. In the sense that he's the important one, he's the one who looks like Harry, he has the important name, he gets more dialogue, everyone cares about him more, there's a bigger focus on him, he gets Lily's eyes out of everyone, everyone else is nothing next to him!

Anyway, that's all, I think.

~WW~

Well, I decided it was time to reread DH so I could do some research for thread discussions. I just came across this section of the book and remembered that this came up in this thread. I wanted to make sure that the facts were correct so as not to give a false representation.

The first part of this quote has Harry being prepared to deceive Griphook with the fake sword. However, Ron was actually the person who came up with this plan. Hermione shot it down instantly, and it wasn't brought up again...at least not in that discussion (I'm not through with the reread). Harry didn't even get a chance to respond to this one way or the other because of Hermione.

The second part of this quote is accurate, but not complete. Harry flat out says that Griphook will get it. "He can have it," Harry went on, "after we've used it on all of the Horcruxes. I'll make sure he gets it then. I'll keep my word." Although Harry is being a bit deceitful because he isn't being truthful to time frame, he does have every intention of keeping his word. So, in this case, I don't see it as Harry NOT remaining "pure of heart". He knows that the ONLY weapon they have right at that moment to destroy Horcruxes is the sword. I can't say I blame him for putting off handing it over to Griphook. But, I agree, he should have tried to be more honest about the time frame. Harry couldn't have told him why (horcruxes), but Griphook may have been understanding enough to except a delay.

However, even in my reread, I'm still puzzled how JKR worked out the whole ownership of the Elder Wand. To me, that's the weakest part of the whole book. Wandlore states that the wand must be taken, or the owner defeated, for it to change ownership. How did Harry end up the owner of the Elder Wand when he never took it from Malfoy? And Harry never really defeated Malfoy because all he did was snatch the wands out of Draco's hand. The only wand Harry took from him, of the two, was Malfoy's personal wand at Malfoy Manor. So, does that mean that since Malfoy was the "owner" of both wands at the time, if one changes allegiance, the other one will, too? Even though it wasn't there at the time? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Hi guys! Its great to have so many posts here to respond to. As ever, I thank you all sincerely for your time!

I’ve always thought that JKR’s Deathly Hallows reeked of “FanFiction.” And these past posts have touched on my three top reasons why: 1) The forever and a day long camping trip, 2) the horribly confusing plot, and 3) the much hated epilogue.

Now, I won’t touch on the epilogue. There is an entire thread devoted to views on that, and from what I’ve skimmed, they seem mostly consist of posts from people who hated it. Utter disaster in the hokiest fanfic way. That’s all I’m going to say on the subject.

The camping trip: UGH! What an utter nightmare. Laurylin, Witherwings, you said it. The camping trip seemed to last forever. (I think JK had hit a writers block and forced herself through it. Writers; beware! Go get inspired somewhere scenic or something!)



Moon, you have no idea how much I agree with you about this. And I bet that really was JK’s point: to show that the two of them were not bound to Harry, but chose it. However, I think she could have made that point more poignant by NOT having Ron abandon them. I totally just do not get it. (I mean, I’ve always been a huge fan of Ron, and I know that there are a lot of readers out there that just can’t stand him, but this was going too far IMPO. Vile and cruel humor? Check! Sexist in every way imaginable? Check! Abandonment? No way!) (PS. Moon, sexism in Harry Potter, IMPO, runs rampant.)

Jk had us spend forever in the forest, and personally, I thought several other chapters were a bit long winded and overly complicated (Ex. The Department of Ministries, IMPO). Couldn’t all of that paper be put to better use?

Like giving Snape and Harry the confrontation they deserved, like finding a better way to get to the Basilisk venom in the Chamber of Secrets (which I’ll come to in a minute). How about just simply explaining all of the confusing parts?

The Rat Nest Plots (or, the incredibly tangled series of events): The end with the wand was one of them. I had to re-read it a couple of times, then flip back to the part in Malfoy Mannor, and then I got it. But it was entirely too much effort on the readers (my!) part for it to be considered good storytelling. Did anyone else think we might have gotten the last part quicker if Wand Lore had been discussed earlier? I think it would have been a relevant topic to bring up in say, book five-ish, considering it was how the entire series ended.

And this overly-confusing nonsense is just one side of the coin. The other side is incredibly poor plot devices to construct the bridges needed to connect the overly-confusing nonsense. I.E. Ron suddenly being able to speak parsletounge. Totally, Totally the most ridiculous idea I’ve ever heard of. And only there because JK didn’t have any better ideas (if she had, I’m sure she would have used them. How could she not have?!)

Ron “remembered,” over 5 years later, how Harry spoke the word “open” which he heard in a language that doesn’t even consists of the same sounds as human language while he was under incredible stress. FANFICTION. And lousy fanfiction at that. (I wrote about my personal reason for why this could never have possibly happened on the second page of the thread "Chamber of Secrets, Too Easy?" in this forum if anyone's interested, but aside from this, there are many many reasons why this is just a poor plot device)

Moon, you also mentioned that DH was predictable. I agree with this as well. Her past books have been edge of you seat excitement because there were so many unexpected twists. We know what JK is capable of, and in comparison, the plot of DH is incredibly poor. Laury, in regards to your statement about the forest, this is how I felt about the entire book, not only because of the horrible camping trip but because of how thin her plot became:



Vega, I’m so glad I was able to sway you as far as the Hermione 180 conundrum went. Its one of my biggest sore spots within the book; Ron vs Hermione. And thank you for the McClaggen bit. It was something I missed.

I’m going to consider what you said about Sirius and Kretcher. I feel like we can get more out of that one with a bit of consentration, and I’ll have to get back to you.

In the mean time, guys, something to think about: Do you think that JK lost perspective once the movies started being produced? It seems to me that other people’s opinions bent and swayed her. Do you think she let her story become…not so much her story anymore? Please only respond with evidence of this. I would rather not be buried under angry JK fans. Its just a thought, after all.

(My own evidence of the above include 1) how movie fans noticed there were few female leads. Then the fifth book came out, and several new female characters were introduced or expanded upon: Umbridge as a baddy, Tonks and Luna were introduced, Cho was brought back for a bigger part, and Ginny’s character did a 180 as she spent the next two books turning into the hero’s love interest and, like all good fanfiction, the perfect Mary Sue. (I swear, don’t even get me started). And 2) Emma Watson became a fan favorite, while Rupert Grint seemed to thrive on comedy. Maybe Hermione and Ron’s role in DH were influenced?)

Thanks guys!

--Solie

I promise I'll dive deeper into your post and this thread soon. I'm almost through with my reread of DH. However, I did want to make a quick comment about this. I believe that Ron's rememberance of Harry's parseltongue "open" came not from the Chamber of Secrets book/year, but from Harry opening the Slytherin locket in the forest. Harry had to tell it to open for Ron to stab it with the sword. At least, that was my take on it. I could be wrong, though.

Oh, and I agree. There was way too much camping in DH. I can understand the need for certain parts of it, but others could have been condensed down.

Thats a very good point, and I believe that you are correct. However, the plot line is still messy and a bit unrealistic, considering that JK made Parseltongue so unique. It seems strange that Ron could just guess at it and repeat it.

Eh. Its a moot point anyways. It was still a poor and messy way to take care of a plot hole in my opinion.

I'm glad to hear that you're re-reading the DH. I'm looking forward to your post!

Are you rejecting the entire premise that Harry doesn’t remain "pure of heart" or only this episode as one example?
.
Yes, you're right, Ron initially came up with the plan, and yes Hermione was against it. However, Harry didn’t dismiss the plan, although he did have the opportunity, and he could have supported Hermione's censure. Harry took Ron’s original idea as a starting point; he modified, expanded and was prepared to implement it. Also part of my disappointment was Harry's intended treatment of a magical being, which I didn't state very clearly. It had been stated repeatedly in the series that wizards had treated other magical beings poorly, and up until DH, Harry’s treatment of magical beings was exemplary. Hermione reiterates that wizards have treated magical beings poorly:
"Wizarding history often skates over what the wizards have done to other magical races…"(DH chapter 25 p. 409 Raincoast)
" 'Goblins have got good reason to dislike wizards, Ron,' said Hermione. 'They’ve been treated brutally in the past' (DH chapter 25 p.409)
It is interesting to note that while Harry et. al are thinking of ways to deceive a magical being, he is looking out at Dobby’s grave, a magical being who sacrificed his life to save Harry.
"There was a pause while they tried to think of a way round the problem. Harry looked out of the window at Dobby’s grave. Luna was arranging sea lavender in a jam jar beside the headstone." (DH chapter 25 p. 409)I understand the ends-justify-the-means mentality. For you being "a bit deceitful" is okay, and while you'd have liked Harry to have been more honest his not "being truthful about the timeline" is also okay. I struggle with this ethically and I tend to think this is not okay.
The quote above feels like Harry may be trying to rationalize his intentions to deceive and lie by saying he will give it to Griphook in the end, especially when the time frame for the end could be years. Continuing on with the scene, Harry himself appears to be struggling with it, ethically, as well. He has his doubts that what he is planning to do is right as he waffles with the tacked on "really" when he states " 'I know that, but he [Griphook] needn’t. I won’t be lying…. really.' " (DH chapter 25 p. 411)
If Harry is truly okay with his decision and he doesn't think it is morally wrong (or a grey area at least), he shouldn't be feeling shame, he shouldn't be making the connection to Grindelwald’s supremacy statement "For the Greater Good" and he shouldn't be admitting he doesn't like it.

"Harry met her eyes with a mixture of defiance and shame. He remembered the words that had been engraved over the gateway to Nurmengard: For the Greater Good. He pushed the idea away. What choice did they have?
'I don’t like it,' said Hermione.
'Nor do I, much,' Harry admitted. (DH chapter 25 p. 411)

For you, this episode doesn’t demonstrate that Harry isn’t remaining "pure of heart", so we can agree to disagree on it. I still support the stronger argument that Harry doesn’t remain "pure of heart" because he uses Unforgiveables where he was unable/unwilling to use them previously.
You're welcome. I am actually easy to sway, so it's not much of a coup. I'm a sucker for a well presented argument supported by canon.

It was a poor plot device and the writing was contrived and clunky. I am more than willing to suspend belief when reading a well written story, and cut an author slack about a topic s/he might not know a lot about. This 'lucky coincidence' of Ron remembering Parseltongue was one point where I refused to suspend my RL knowledge that it is impossible for him to successfully say the word "open" in Parseltongue by trying to imitate something he heard twice in his life.

I totally agree on the whole Ron speaking Parseltongue as a diabolically shoddy plot device. Tut, JK you really could have done much better. It was rushed and ill thought out.

I agree with a lot of what you have all said, and today I find myself being irked by something quite petty. I don't know why I didn't think of it that way until today. I suspect that somewhere deep down it always bothered me but today for some reason, it bothers me more. JKR's timeline, to be specific, the fact that James and Lily were only 21 when they died. They would have only got out of Hogwarts 5 minutes before and yet, in their time since, they had married, become members of the Order of the Phoenix, in fact powerful members, thrice defied Voldemort and had a baby! Hmm, can anyone else see why I find this bothersome?

JKR made them too young in my opinion, to have done half of this. Or perhaps not...what do you think?

Yes, I know, etphonehome, I also thought about this...they are kind of young to have done all this. Let's think about it...They were 21 when they died and Harry was 1 year old. That means Lily gave birth of Harry when she and James were 20, that means she was pregnant while she was 19, I guess...They finished school when they were almost 18. So, that leaves only 1-2 years to fight the death eaters and voldemort, because I guess that after she got pregnant they didn't fight...much. I mean, that would be logical, wouldn't it? And after they had the baby they were in hiding.
Maybe they had the time to defy Voldemort thrice, but it's another thing that bothers me about this. It is the fact that they should have been very competent wizards at the age of 18 to be able to fight the death eaters and voldemort and escape three times, while Harry was kind of an incompetent wizard at the age of 17, in my opinion.

By the way, very nice thread

Ooh, etphonehome and fleurs du mal (welcome to the thread!) thats a very good point about Harry's parents being great wizards to have "thrice defied" the Dark Lord. It definitely ties in with my problem over Harry being shown as a bit of a weak wizard in the seventh book.

However, Lily and James being able to thrice defy LV by the time they were twenty is very possible, IMPO.

Lily and James had a good year or so to defy LV while in the order, an organization the two of them would probably have devoted themselves to. I can envision the two of them doing all they could to get in his way during that time. I can absolutely see them defying him three times in that time span, especially if they had already done something to thwart him while still in Hogwarts.

Consider books 1-6 of the HP series. In it, we see that Harry alone has defied him, at least indirectly, a total of four times. While Harry may be on another level than other wizards (at least for the first six books), his friends have also defied him, (for example, in the DoM battle).

Based on this trajectory, it seems that Harry is also on his way to becoming just as great a wizard as the two of them were. I do not believe the we were shown Harry's (character's) true potential in the seventh book. Especially when we consider that at the age of 20, his parents had defied LV three times already.

----

Vega, I feel a bit guilty for coping out of the "Harry deceiving the goblin" argument. I defiantly needed to go over the details of that exchange before I allowed myself to be so easily bowled over. You're absolutely right, just because Harry didn't come up with the idea didn't stop him from agreeing to it. That in itself is enough.

Does it bug anyone else that Hermione was instantly disagreeing with Ron's idea, after the argument that she wasn't necessarily the most moral one out of the trio? I feel that Harry should have been the one to protest first and foremost, and maybe have been talked into it by the other two.

PS. Happy Birthday Moon(I luv you Luna)

I guess my disappointment with this part of the story isn't so much that Lily and James were portrayed as these powerful/accomplished wizards. It's more that JKR has condensed all their acheivements into such a short space of time and I find this unbelievable.

As fleur du mal said, They married, joined the Order, Lily became pregnant and gave birth all within such a short space of time. This to me seems all the more incredible when you consider that at the time they were fifth years and taking their Owls, Lily and James were not yet a couple. One assumes this occurred in their sixth year, so they barely knew eachother when they married. As fleur du mal also siad, Lily would have become pregnant at the age of 19 so it's easy to assume that they married straight out of school. This hardly left Lily adequate time to become an accomplished and powerful member of the Order. I doubt that she would have defied Voldemort while she was pregnant, she wouldn't have put herself and her unborn child in that kind of jeopardy.

No, this part of the story doesn't add up and without a proper explanation from the author, I'm left to believe that she just made a muck up!

I agree with you, Moon. I think I was really to just show that they could walk out anytime they wanted to, esspecially Ron. Hermione would have had nowere to go because she's a "Mudblood" but there was nothing stopping Ron from just walking. I love Ron alot too but I sorta thought that he was really diffrent in the last one. He was a jerk and I kinda thought some of the stuff he said was out of charecter like,"Alls fair in love and war and this is a bit of both." I like that line pretty well but in my personal opnion, that doesn't sound like a very Ron-ish thing to say.
Also-Happy Birthday Moon!!!(sorry if that was a bit too )





I thought that was a bit dodgy when I read it too. It didn't make sence to me that you could just imitate parsltonge because, if you could, lots more people would know parsltough because they learned it. People would veiw it as less of a "Dark gift" too because no one I know veiws my Spanish class as "Dark". I think it should have been writen were Harry went with Ron/Hermione to get the Fangs. It would not have made a huge diffrence in the book- A few pages is all.

kk heres my problem with the book

loosing dumbeldore in the 6th book made harry seem unguided, it made him look like he was a little kid who thought he knew what he was doing, he had none of the guidance that he had in the first few books, plus we lost our familiar return to hogwarts and quidditch ( SP?)

personally, dumbledore was one of my favorite characters, and to kill him off after he was said to be such a great wizard, it was kind of lame, then even worse, they made him into this dark scheming wizard, it wouldve been better if he had the dark past, but lived into the last book to own up and die protecting harry out of love adding to his reason why he was able to beat voldemort, plus for a while i thought he was gonna turn out to be harry's grandfather, wouldnt that have made everything a little better? i mean, he barely knew sirius and he dies, leaving him with no family but the dursleys, there shouldve been a single wizard / witch relative of his left for him to talk to

what about the mirror from the first book? i think JK forgot about that little part

another thing that was left in the air, what about the house founders? we never knew why they were soo awesome, maybe give some background on salazar and gryfindor a little

on the snape matter, yeah the whole doe patronus thing plus the i loved your mom hting, made him seem weak, remember what a badass he was in the first book? i thought he was gonna shank somebody, he looked really tough in the first bookk, then he just turns out to not live up to his first impressions

and why did all those poeple die? they put too much emphasis on death in this book, i mean come on, his owl?

its been a few months, somone wanna remind me if hagrid died or not?

Erm no. But he was dragged off into the forest by the death eaters, so we were under the impression that he was a gonna. When Harry went into the forest he was relieved to find HAgrid being held captive. I can't remember how he got free...he carried Haary's 'dead' body back to the castle did he not? Time to re-read for a few of us I think!

Your problem with James and Lily becoming such accomplished wizards in such a short amount of time was discovered in the fifth book, when Harry learned of the prophesy. I believe (although I could be wrong, and forgive me if I am) that Harry was aware of general age of his parents at their death long before that (I think it was discussed in PoA, when we found out that Sirius was so young when he was imprisoned.)

I defiantly agree that it was highly implausible. The fact remains that this information was given before the seventh book, and unless it relates directly to the plot of the seventh book, I don't know if its exactly on topic. Perhaps we can take it as evidence that Harry ought to have been shown on par with the level his parents were at by the seventh book. I felt that, yes, it was a bit unbelievable, but JK was setting up a standard that Harry could be measured against. And I feel that he did NOT measure up.



Exactly, there would be nothing special, or rather, it wouldn’t be something that made people quite as jumpy if it was more mainstream. Which is part of the reason Ron being able to remember a specific word is a little unusual.


Yea, Ron has always been one of my favorite characters and I felt he was done a major disservice in the last book. I suppose JK did need to make the point that they could leave if they chose, but I think that having Ron actually leave was the worst possible way to make that point. I did like the line about how DD knew Ron would want to come back, but I just cannot grasp WHY he would have wanted to leave in the first place. Its not something I would have ever predicted, (and I think I would still feel this way even if I didn’t like Ron so much.) If anyone has any inkling of WHY Ron’s character acted the way he did in the last book, feel free to enlighten me. Because I just cannot make sense of it.

durcadur I agree with you that the plot line concerning Dumbledore was done poorly, but I agree with earlier posts in this thread that Dumbledore’s background was an important topic to address. We learn exactly what the difference was between DD and Harry, and how that difference makes Harry the only one to defeat Voldemort.

But I will say that having DD undefeatable because of the Elder Wand, and having the entire book practically dedicated to dirtying up his character was something that I didn’t expect and I was hurt a bit by it. Maybe that was the point, to pull the rug out from us and Harry. But quite frankly, I think Harry had enough to worry about, with the whole “I’ve got to kill LV” bit.

And I also felt that there was quite a bit that she left out. If I recall, she mentioned there would be several things we would see again that we did not, and I think the mirror and the founders were among them. Personally, I would have LOVED to have had more info on the founders. I really think seeing Slytherin in a good light and maybe Gryffie in a negative one would have done wonders, conserning her treatment of Slytherins. Vega has made quite an argument already of why we needed to see better treatment/redemtion of Slytherin, and it was simply something JK chose not to address. Shame on her.

I think that JK should have separated the Deathly Hollows into two separate books. We’ve discussed here in this thread how sloppy the plot was, along with how rushed the entire thing seemed. She simply didn’t have enough room in the book for all she needed to have accomplished.

Another thing: Did anyone else feel like the book was incredibly depressing, aside from the numerous deaths in it (they were necessary, because it was a war.) It just seemed like there was very, very little humor. The radio show was good, and that brightened up the horrible camping trip, but I don’t think it was really enough to save that chunk of misery. Ron and Hermione finally getting together was nice, but a little anti-climatic IMPO. It could have added a great deal to the moral of the readers.

To he honest I never thought about that before but now that you say I relize your right: he seems to be Harry's favored child. That seem like awful bad parenting on Harry's part


Personally, I think that Harry did right thing , in this case anyway because it turns out that Griphook had even more underhanded taktics hidden up his sleeve. I think that Harry was grappleing with the "For the Greater Good" theary. I didnot like when Harry and CO. impersonated people at the ministry because they put inocent people in danger. More danger than they were in origanly, that is.

Oh, I just thought of another thing that I had forgotten about until now: Remus being a complete pansy about starting a family. The scene where he wants to come along with HRH on their horcrux hunt, and Harry has to yell at him to get a grip and be happy with his family? Yeah. I hated that. It was so extreme!

Ok. Done with my random rant.

I could understand Lupin being worried (because he was a weirwolf (sp?))But I thought it was rather unlike him to leave his wife and unborn child. You would think that, being worried about his child, he would be more protective of his small family. Running away didn't seem like the kind of thing that Lupin would do at all. I think that JKR got that bit 'wrong' (she can't really be wrong 'cause it's her world but still...).

Also: Did we ever really find out exactly how the battle with Grindelwald played out or did JKR just leave that plot line (DD's) with alot of loose ends?
I kinda felt like she droped that plot line without answering some of the questions she had set up for herself earler in the book. As I said before, I think she just worked her way through the end of the book in a very rushed way without paying attention to details.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I do understand your point, that the end justifies the means. This is also a premise of the "For the Greater Good" theory. I just can't share it; I struggle with the ethics of lying and deceiving someone. Harry appears to struggling with the ethics of the situation as well when he states he doesn't like it either.

A general disappointment with DH for me would be the lack of resolution to conflicts that have been built up over the series. As I have stated previously, I was looking for a final confrontation and resolution to the Harry/Snape relationship, and was disappointed when I got an inadequate Pensieve scene instead. A second specific disappointment was Neville not having an opportunity to face Bellatrix in a duel, to have the final confrontation and resolution to their relationship. In the Molly Weasley vs. Bellatrix Lestrange thread, Gwenog made a very eloquent argument for Neville to be the one to face Bellatrix. I know some of us have already had a bit of a go at this in the MW vs. BL thread, but there I was more focused on my lack of conviction that Mrs. Weasley would be even capable to duel Bellatrix.

Some of the following points have already been excellently covered by Gwenog, Dumbledore’s Widow, and soleil in the MW vs. BL thread, I am just putting them within a disappointment framework.

It appeared that Neville was written in such a way as to parallel Harry. The prophecy could have been about either Harry or Neville. Voldemort chose to believe it was about Harry. Harry's parents were killed by Voldemort, while Neville’s parents were tortured into insanity by Bellatrix. As stated by Gwenog, having your parents alive but in that incurable state is very hard on Neville and may be infinitely worse than Harry's situation of being without parents. Harry had faced Voldemort (3 times) before the final confrontation, while Neville had faced Bellatrix once in the MoM. Harry had to ultimately face and defeat Voldemort. To complete the parallel, Neville should ultimately have had to face and defeat Bellatrix.

Besides the obvious Harry/Neville parallel, there is the way Neville and Bellatrix are written, especially in OotP. It is so very personal!
Neville uses the knowledge of Bellatrix’ escape from Azkaban as motivation to become more proficient in DADA, training relentlessly in the DA meetings: he is on a mission. This is described in both detail and at length.
"but in nobody was this improvement more pronounced than in Neville. The news of his parents attackers' escape had wrought a strange and even slightly alarming change in him. He had not once mentioned his meeting with Harry, Ron and Hermione on the closed ward of St. Mungo's and, taking their lead from him had kept quiet about it too. Nor had he said anything on the subject of Bellatrix and the other torturers' escape. In fact, Neville barely spoke during the DA meetings anymore, but worked relentlessly on every new jinx and counter-curse that Harry taught, his plump faced screwed up in concentration, apparently indifferent to injuries or accidents and working harder than anyone else in the room. He was improving so fast it was unnerving and when Harry taught them the Shield Charm – a means of deflecting minor jinxes so that they rebounded upon the attacker - only Hermione mastered the charm faster than Neville. (OotP chapter 25 p. 488 Raincoast).

Bellatrix enjoys verbally taunting and physically torturing Neville in their confrontation in the Ministry of Magic in OotP. Bellatrix performs the Cruciatus curse on Neville exactly like she did to his parents.

" 'Longbottom,?' repeated Bellatrix, and a truly evil smile lit her gaunt face. 'Why, I have had the pleasure of meeting your parents, boy.'
'I DOE YOU HAB!' roared Neville, and he fought so hard against his captor’s encircling grip that the Death Eater shouted, 'Someone Stun him!
'No,no, no,' said Bellatrix. She looked transported, alive with excitement as she glanced at Harry, then back at Neville. 'No, let's see how long Longbottom lasts before he cracks like his parents… unless Potter wants to give us the prophecy.'
'DON'D GIB ID DO DEM!' roared Neville, who seemed besided himself, kicking and writhing as Bellatrix drew nearer to him and his captor, her wand raised. 'DON’D GIB ID DO DEM, HARRY!
Bellatrix raised her wand. 'Crucio!' "(OotP chapter p. 706) bolding mine

The way these scenes are written the reader's made aware of Bellatrix' evil nature and how vile she is to Neville. In contrast, the reader is shown Neville's vulnerability and love for his mother when Harry et. al. meet Neville visiting his parents in the locked ward at St. Mungo's. In the MoM, while taunted by Bellatrix about his parents, Neville demonstrates a nobility, preferring to be tortured by Bellatrix rather than having Harry surrender the prophecy. The reader tends to respond to Neville and be supportive of Neville and his thirst for retribution. Again, it is stiking, how very personal this conflict is shown to be, for both Neville and Bellatrix. [As an aside, its interesting how well, at times, J.K. Rowling can write a secondary character.] So after all this buildup of the very personal conflict between Neville and Bellatrix, and the readers’ expectations, I felt cheated that Neville wasn't given his opportunity to face and defeat Bellatrix. That Mrs. Weasley is the person to duel and kill Bellatrix, I found unbelievable and disappointing. As I have stated elsewhere, Harry would have been a very poor second choice after Neville.

I am with you 100% on this.I din't return my book though. Apart from the pbvious flaws,there's a feeling as though it's not a harry potter book. Almost like a fan-fiction.Everyone was overly dramatic and sometimes just plain dumb.What's with naming the kid Albus Severus Potter?! I get james and i get lily,but come on. Very much like a fan-fic.

Maybe that's why the camping trip went on FOREVER... JKR actually went somewhere to get inspired, and she wrote about her camping adventures (sorta)

Anyway, I sped-read DH and really missed a lot the first time through (I'm a very impatient person and just wanted to find out what happened). It wasn't until I was discussing DH with my sister and she pointed out the never-ending camping trip and "too much filler" that I felt I needed to go back and re-read it (I've read it 3 times). I tend to agree, in retrospect, that much of DH could have been written/edited better or left out entirely. Ron's whole whinging while on the camping trip got old, fast. I wanted to reach in and smack him on his head. Granted, he was wearing the locket at the time (and hungry), but he never came across as being a spoiled brat in the other books (it was mentioned that lack of food put them all in a bad mood and that Ron was used to his mom's cooking or 3-squares a day at Hogwarts). He was rather a prat in GoF (again, I wanted to smack him), so perhaps that's why DD would have thought Ron would abandon the others when he got bent out of shape.

I agree that there was too much work on the reader's part to figure out the wand-lore (Draco defeating Dumbledore and Harry defeating Draco and then Harry using Draco's wand to defeat Voldemort) as well as the whole King's Cross sequence. But even more was the whole Harry sacrificing himself for the wizarrding world, which was why all the spells Voldemort cast after hitting Harry with the AK didn't have the full effect. I don't think I would have caught on to that if someone hadn't spelled it out for me... I just didn't pick up on it. Of course it was plain as day when I re-read it!

I do need to try and defend one thing... a lot of posts (here and in other threads) have a problem with Ron being able to speak Parseltounge, or rather imitating Parseltounge to open the Chamber. Hermione did say it took him several times to get it right. I don't speak Japanese, but I know that if I say "don't touch my mustache" (with a Japanese accent) it's very close in sound to "Do Itashi Mash ite" which means, "you're welcome" -OR- if I say "Ohio" it sounds like "Ohayo" which means "good morning". So, in Ron's defense, if he tried to copy what Harry had said to open the locket, and it did take several tries, he could have opened the Chamber. IMHO!

But for the most part, DH was not my favorite of the seven. I did hear that at one point JKR had locked herself in a hotel room with champagne while writing DH (to deaden the pain of being the end?), so maybe that's what's wrong with it!

A lot of people are complaining about the camping sequence and the length of it, and I feel that that was actually quite necessary. HRH were trying to tackle the Deathly Hallows while dodging all of Voldemort's attempts to kill them and get the hallows. This is not an easy task and therefore the camping scenes couldn't be cut and have Harry wake up one morning and say, "Hey Hermione, I know what to do." It doesn't quite work like that, time is necessary...so what better way to create that time than have them on the run.

Also, hissing is pretty different than Japanese. And I don't know of any words that sounds remotely like a hiss when prounounced correctly (I guess if you are eating and say his while holding the end of the word...?). Anywho, most people are disgruntled about Ron speaking Parseltongue because it goes against history. Parseltongue is supposed to be a rare gift that only evil wizards have. And you're not supposed to be able to copy Parseltongue if you're not blessed with the gift at birth (or by Voldemort in Harry's case). So having Ron come out of the blue and say, "Btw Harry, I remembered how you spoke in Parseltongue those couple of times through everything that's happened and all the stress we've been going through. So I just went down to the second floor bathroom and opened up the Chamber that for thousands of years no one was able to find, brought back a tooth and well here we are." Oh no, I don't think so Ron, that's way to farfetched and frankly, not to be a killjoy...Ron is plain and simple not smart enough to accomplish such a feat.

Btw, my disappointment, if you can't tell, is Ron showing this unexpected brilliance that has never been shown before. I mean look at him in the fourth book trying to impress Moody to get the compliment of, "you should think of being an Auror." Ron made a fool of himself. Poor Ron...

OK, well, firstly, I really hated the "Camper's Guide to Great Britain" that this book became. All that moving around the country, setting up camp in various forests. Purlease!!!

And, where were all these answers we were promised? Like, who is the person who will show magical abilities later in life?

And I didn't get the final battle with Voldemort in front of all those witnesses. Firstly, it seemed like it just jumped from one thing to the next, and missed out a whole heap of story. Secondly, they commented earlier that the problem with owning the elder wand was that people knew about it, and they knew they had to kill the owner to get it. So Harry just announces in front of 300 witnesses that he is its master?

This book contained several glaring omissions and inconsistencies. It seems to me that JKR got to this book and just kind of thought "Stuff it, I just want to get it over and done with now".

DH was a HUGE disappointment and anti-climax

My biggest disappointment in DH was that Rita Skeeter didn't get the punishment she deserved. I mean, look at her. She wanted to write a biography of Dumbledore. She magically manipulated Bathilda to tell her all the secrets. She used memory charms, legilimens or who knows what not and acquired all information. She tarnished the image of Dumbledore and yet got away with it? Same thing goes for Umbridge, though, JKR told in an interview that she was arrested and jailed. I wanted Rita to get punished for her misdeeds.

that was a fair point nadadurr0 rita skeeter should have got punished for the fact she was making dumbledore look really stupid and mean! even although some of it was true she went over the top and told the whole wizarding world things that are best kept as secrets! i never heard that umbrige got arrested and jailed she deserved it though! that is just my opinion! what does other people have to say?

Well I am new to this topic and I hope not to disturb anyone, but I have been reading this some way back and I quite agree with you all, I don't want to sound repettitive but I do hate all the camping It apeared to go on forever, and aven when re-reading the book most things seemed to get into place, I felt the book like a heart atack graphic, sometimes it just went to fast, and latter it was like a dead end, and nothing seemed to happend for ages.

I just feel like JK had to much to put into place, and the Dealthy Hallows just seem to be a writer resource to glue them into something. For one thing all that thing about harry being prepare to get to the hallows sounds to much like "you have to be wort to go on a Grial quest" and that's just to much used in literature, it's doesn't looks like her.

But the thing that makes me mad is the Cup locatión, it doen's seems likable for LV to put the cup into souch a comon place. Ok it's a simbol of wizzarding families, and is just to safe, but come on, if it was so secret and so valuable why to leave it there after all the magic used in the cave, all his invention. I just can chew it.

Please, say I'm wrong cause I really love HP and this is getting frustrating since I read the book for the first time

I hate to admit it, but I agree with every single word. DH was a disappointment to be honest. It's my least favourite and I truly hate CS, but that's another discussion. I didn't get the HP-feeling when reading. Only in the first chapter, but it was different. But from there, everything was just a bit fanfic-ish.

Though I think the worst i can think of is RAB. I had really expected JKR to be better and comming up with another person we had heard of, yet not in the same was as Regulus. It was expected and seemed wrong to me.

I think maybe the problem why it didn't seem like a HP book is because it wasn't built up like the previously books. There wasn't a big mystery of who was trying to get the philosophers' stone or who was trying to kill Dumbledore. It was just a jurney. I'd say the biggest 'mystery' was who helped Harry gaining Gryffindor's sword back. Not even the last Horcruxes did I find enough.

Maybe we all think of the book as a disappointment because we had too high expectations, maybe it just weren't that good. But I will stil love it because it after all is a bok from my favourite series.

I was pretty disapointed by the fact that JKR didn't elaborate on what happens to many of the minor characters, especially in the prologue. And I agree that Albus Severus does seem like a favorite to Harry but that's probably because he is so much like Harry.

It seems to me that JKR put too much focus on the main characters and ignores the minor characters a bit. I would also have liked it if she wrote some parts of the book from Ron, Hermione, or Ginny's point of view. It's like the whole series follows Harry only. I would have liked to see what was going on at Hogwarts from Ginny's point of view and how life was at Hogwarts with Snape and the Carrows there.

My greatest disappointment was that JKR left so many unanswered questions in the series, and I thought that all those unanswered questions would be answered in DH. She did answer a bit, but she raised even more than she answered.

My dissapointment(s) are pretty short and simple. One of them had to be the countless deaths. I thought there were alot. And to this point [and by the way everybody today is exactly a year since the release of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, well atleast in America] and I still feel like there's something missing. I felt like things were rushed in the book. Somethings weren't explained enough and yea that's about it lol

Yes I agree with you Nicky Potter. I do feel that some certain things were rushed throughout the books. But somethings may have been a bit long but neccessary. [Something missing? hmm.. as in what do you think?] Anyways the countless deaths part. Well I mean the man was on a rampage I guess you could say. But I need to go back and read the book again soon!

Oh, It has already been a year? Wow, things fly by!

Andrew

I agree with your posts and disappoinment, although i enjoyed it but it was rushed and very small book, and as you stated some parts were really long there was no need for such a long pointless camping trip, yes ROn speaking to snake was really unbelievable. She destroyed the magic of Horcruses she created in HBP it was slow and hypnotic DH was quite cahotic it was jumping everywhere and Voldemort was weakest in this book instead of being strongest. There was suppose to be deaths like Serious like Diggory all we got to read was that Lupin and Tonks died Greyback was overpowered. etccc

Lupin dying. Ron speaking the snake language, R/Hr relationship which was cliched unbelievable and puke worthy.

Sooooo true!

Add the following also: (off the top of my head)
Hedwig getting killed
Fred getting killed
Colin getting killed
Molly killing Bellatrix (that victory should have been Neville's!!!)
Bellatrix missing Ginny (the Weaselette should have died!)
Voldemort's death was NOT the climax I felt it should have been
Harry's last thoughts before dying (puke worthy)
the H/G relationship (puke worthy!!!!)
and the epilogue (cheesy!)

I can't believe I never came into this thread before.


That is what disappointed me the most. Voldemort, the greatest evil wizard of all time, was soo weak it was unbelievable. I feel like JKR was looking for an easy escape. She destroyed one of my favorite characters. Voldermort and Harry should have been the greatest battle of all time but all they did was walk around in circles, talk, and then throw one curse at each other which by fluke kills Voldemort. The whole concept of how Voldemort died (with the Elder wand and everything) was fine but I expected more to happen before his death came.

Also, is it just me, or was Voldemort extra generous in this book. Forgive me, for I've only read the book once since the day it was released, but it seemed like he was giving Harry all the time in world. He said things like 'Give me Harry Potter and none shall be harmed. Give me Harry Potter and I shall leave the school untouched. Give me Harry Potter and you will be rewarded. You have until midnight.' The words that I have bolded are the ones I never expected Voldemort to say. If I were him, I would have just blasted the entire school. Whoever got in my way would have died. Harry would have come out eventually because he can't stand to see his friends die. But I guess that's just me.


Haha, I agree about the R/Hr relationship. And Ron speaking Parseltoungue(sp?) is so unbelievable. It was supposed to be a rare talent that is passed down by blood. People shouldn't be able to randomely speak the language all of a sudden. Even if everyone is somehow related to Salazar Slytherin, I still think that the gift should have been more selective and not easy to be picked up. I don't care how long you stare at a snake image or even if you have the real thing in front of you, unless you have the gift you shouldn't be able to speak perseltoungue!


Whether Neville was supposed to kill Bellatrix or not, Molly killing Bella is soo disappointing. I don't care how much anger she had because the witch nearly killed her daughter. I see Bella as a very powerful witch who shouldn't have been taken down so easily by Molly Weasley.



You took the words right out of my mouth: the Weaselette should have died. Bella missing, psh, oh please!


Haha, I don't have anything to add to this. It was just a utter mess.


Definately not what I expected....

And I was also disappointed when Harry started using unforgivable curses. Tsk, tsk Harry.