This topic is to discuss the relationships developped in Harry Potter series. This can involve all aspects of relationships we have encountered: love, friendship, family and anything else that fits to this categories.

Everyone can post their little bits and pieces and demonstrate any aspect of this topic they'd like to talk about. However, you should all keep in mind the rules of the forums and respect what everyone has to say. You are free to argue but within limits.

Now, to start this conversation, I think it'd be nice if we talked about the friendship developped between the trio: Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

What do you think helped them stay together until the end?
Could Hermione be the one holding this relationship and why has Ron "ditched" Harry more than once in the series?
Would it have been possible for Harry to make it on his own?


Discuss!

I'd like to start with Ron and Harry's relationship. In my view, Ron was drawn to Harry firstly because of the fame thing. This, as it turns out, is a bit of a double edged sword for Ron.

Ron is the youngest of the boys in his family. He's not the little princess, he's not the strongest, he's not the brightest and he's not the funniest. When he meets Harry on that train the first time, he still looking for where he fits in within the dynamics of his family. Meeting Harry gave him something, he became the Weasley who was friends with the wizard who 'destroyed' The Dark Lord. Ron Weasley was a someone. For the most part Ron, who throughout his life had become used to being on the bottom rung of the ladder, was entirely happy to play second fiddle to Harry's fame, but on occasion he resented this.Take the incedent in the Goblet of Fire, when he didn't believe that Harry didn't put his own name in the Goblet. It took Harry's life to be in jeopardy before he would accept that his friend hadn't betrayed him. Ultimately though, his and Harry's relationship turned out to be normal. Just like any other firndship between two boys growing up together, or two anyone for that matter. They didn't always agree with the way eachother handled things, but they were very similar and I think Ron realised that about Harry very soon after meeting him. He'd expected to be in total awe of him, but Harry turned out to be pretty darn ordinary.

This is why I think Hermione fitted in with the two of them so perfectly. She brought something to the table that was missing. Intelligence yes, but more than that she was also a loner. The only child of two professional muggles who had strange things happen to her all her life, would have been percieved as an odd ball out in the muggle world. She was intrigued by this new world to which she was delivered and she embraced it wholeheartedly. Imagine how mortified she'd have felt when Ron treated her so badly in the beginning. She must have thought she was no better off in this world than the muggle world. The fact that she lied to get them out of trouble, was a testimony to her ability to learn to accept that fact.She was also a pretty good diplomat. But she wasn't stupid enough to act as a go between when Ron and Harry fell out for too long and was wise enough to tell them they needed to sort things out. Maybe if Hermione hadn't been around to say that, the two of them may never have made up with eachother, but I doubt it. Even boys realise when things have gone too far.

Would HArry have been able to make it on his own? Probably, yes, but then the stories wouldn't have been half as interesting.

I think I agree with most of your views, Elaine.

Ron had always been disappointed by the fact that he was the youngest boy in the family, who never got too much attention or who always had second-hand things. It must have been really hard for him, but being with Harry made it easier. I'm thinking it was "fate" what brought them together (imagine if Harry had asked for help from someone else other than the Weasleys) but during the years their relationship grew stronger and stronger.

Harry was looking for a loyal friend to support him and Ron was looking for someone to have him involved in their life by making him the center of attention. I can not stop thinking of the moment when Ron (at PoA) got attacked by Sirius and kept repeating that story to anyone willing to listen. It was a moment of brilliance for him, and one of the rare moments when he was famous instead of Harry. Another glorious moment of his was when he won at Quidditch, a victory which was totally his own.

However, I can't forgive him for ditching Harry. I know it was hard being with him and that Harry was unbearable at a point, but it was his choice after all. Hermione made it, so why couldn't he make it as well?

As for Hermione, I really think she was the glue sticking them together, whether with her presence or not. She was the reasonable, the intelligent and the careful one. The support she offered Harry was more "practical" than Ron's, who was mostly his friend. Hermione was there to solve his problems, she was like a mini Dumbledore who always found a way to fix things and make them better.

And yes, maybe Harry would have made it on his own, but his trip would have been really solitary. I really think that what makes partly the HP series so good is how the relationships in the books unfold. From book one to book seven, we keep learning more and more details about all the characters and their intimate relationships. What made JKR's world so magic is after all, the fact that it looks so...ordinary.

I just loved that phrase. On my most humble opinion, I think it sums it all up. I believe their relationship was more ordinary than extraordinary, just like any kids' their age.

I believe Hermione is being overrated on the relationship matter. There was a tiny little thing that I think Hagrid mentioned in the movies, not in the books, but that I think could also summarize their relationship for me: they, the three of them, were a bunch of misfits. As Elaine shows it, Hermione was a girl that couldn't fit in the Muggle world, she would have been an outcast if she hadn't been a witch, and Ron, on the other hand, was nothing special in his extra large family.

Hermione wasn't really pretty, she wasn't very girly, and other girls didn't like her. She was also very clever and I like to see her, at the beginning, a little bit tomboyish.

On the other hand, Harry and Ron were a perfect match as friends. One was interested on the "boy who conquered de Dark Lord", looking for fame, like Elaine explains so well, but given also his dad's interest on Muggle stuff, Harry could also provide some knowledge. Who knows, maybe there was some other kind of approval he might want to get from his dad by getting to know all this things (but I think that's probably digging too deep), and Harry, he was desperate to know more about the magical world, and Ron would certainly let him know. Also, Harry never knew of a real family, until he met Ron, and the Weasleys did embrace him.

Hermione also wanted that knowledge from the magical community, and what better way than to get it firsthand? She was also embraced by the Weasleys. I'm not implying she did it on purpose, but let us all remember that at the beginning even Neville, another outcast, was a good friend of the trio, so I'm only saying that they hung out because of this common condition, which eventually developed into a stronger and real friendship.

Hermione needed company, and they both provided it, and they needed her help in their quest for knowledge. She did play a good part by not meddling in their businesses when they got mad, she didn't get in between but also because she knew how different all of them were.

She did show loyalty towards both, and I believe that she learned how to deal with people her own age through them. I believe it was a whole learning process for the three of them, with more advantages than disadvantages for all. I don't really think of Hermione as the "glue" to stick them together, I think of them all as part of an ensemble, each with their defining traits and very particular, which can be proven by the fact that each chose a different Hallow.

The most relevant thing for me on their relationship is that they all faced very "ordinary" situations that tested their friendship. Like when Ron got mad at Harry on GoF, because he was jealous that Harry had found out how to put his name in the goblet and he didn't share that knowledge with him (he would have beaten up the twins and their attempt, and so would have been able to shine on his own) and when he left in DH it was only because the Horcrux exposed his deepest feelings and gave him the courage to say things he thought of out loud.

People, norman and regular people, never have the position they really want in life, and Ron wanted to shine, while Harry wanted to go unnoticed. Hermione was just a regular girl who wanted everyone's approval, and I believe she was also very happy to stand out from her friends because of her brains, while maintaining a true friendship. (They didn't care she was so smart, they loved her and needed her, with her brains.)

So, I believe they just fitted perfectly, without one being more important than the other, or more necessary than the other for that matter, in maintaining their relationship.

Think back to every friendship you know. There is never a band of equals but always there is one who is the life of the party of the center of attention. Sometimes this individual wants that but some other individuals hate being the focus. Harry was the individual who got all of the attention but hated it. He would have much rather been "normal".

In this friendship Ron is the behind the scenes guy. He will hardly ever be the guy who saves the day or the match. His quidditch success came largely to the fact that most of his amazing moments were when Harry was banned or at detention. For Ron this has been his struggle through out the series. He is in everyones shadow, family wise and now his best friend just so happens to be famous. Ron has tremendous difficulty adjusting to his feelings about this. On the one hand he wants to be loyal to Harry and support him in every situation. He knows having Harry as his best friend is better then he expected to ever have. Yet on the other hand, Ron is aching to emerge from the shadows and give some sense of significance and meaning to his life. His jealousy and pride almost destroys his friendship with Harry. Pride is what keeps him away for so long. Thank goodness that Ron eats humble pie more often then not and realizes that it is his unwavering support of Harry that gives Harry the confidence he needs to push forward through all the hard stuff.

I also find Ron's double standards annoying. How is it perfectly ok for Hermione to risk everything for her friend Harry and to accompany Ron and Harry on the Horcrux hunt and yet not ok for Ginny who loves harry and who is a very accomplished witch. In some instances Ginny is more capable at magic then Ronand should have been allowed to make her own choice at being with Harry in that way.

The other thing I want to mention is the relationship between Hermione and Harry and Hermnione and Ron. Without this turning into a love interest debate, I want to comment on how more at ease Hermione seems with Harry. Hermione gets much more respect from Harry and gives him more respect then she does Ron. As a friendship it is easier to see which two have the stronger bond. The sad thing is isn't friendship supposed to be the backbone of even a romantic relationship? If this saying is true...Hermione and Ron are doomed from the start and I am not only talking about romantically. There friendship doesn't seem to be based on anything concrete or mutual, just bickering.

It's kind of funny in a way to think of the variety of relationship aspects displayed between Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

How many times did Hermione do their homework? Check and correct their homework? Fuss at them for failing to do their own homework? Hermione was definitely the brains of the trio, yet she was also the driving force behind many of their successes.

Look to CoS, she is petrified,while she sought to find the answer to why Harry could hear the beast when no-one else could. She had the paper in her hand indicating the beast was a Basilisk. How much longer would it have taken the boys to discover what it was they were seeking? Poor Hermione indicates her talents were "books and cleverness" and that did not make her a good witch, where Harry was brave and loyal.

Hermione came from a close family; Ron came from a family closer still, even if he struggled to fit in amongst his siblings. Harry struggled to fit in anywhere! All three of them were misfits, but each brought a distinct gift to the friendship. Harry seemed to have powers he did not understand, Ron had the distinction of being loved and a pureblood without the racist mania, and Hermione had a thirst to prove herself worthy of being in the wizarding world.

Perhaps their best successes were simply due to the fact they shared their knowledge, pooled their strengths, and strove to do their best, all the while seeking to be good people.
Not once do we see any of them drawn to the dark arts. Of course, this is pertinent in no stronger case than for Harry carrying a bit of Voldemort within himself.

I certainly do agree that Hermione had a much more clearly defined relationship with Harry than she did with Ron. Of course, love can make even the best of us act foolishly. Perhaps that was all the message JKR intended? Young love is tough all over.

This is actually a very good point Amanda. That's why I think people were always talking about Harry and Hermione as well, even though we all sort of knew that she would end up with Ron.

The thing is that Ron has always been at his own world, being a little less mature than Harry and a lot less than Hermione. He acted as if he was less smart or as if he wanted people to think of him like that. I mean, Ron would rarely come up with a solution or say something clever. I don't want to underestimate him, but he looked like the clown of the gang, with his broken wand, with the notes from his mother... Maybe it was his way of being under the spotlight.

So, I do think that Harry appreciated more Hermione. If I recall correctly, Ron was the one to mock her at book 1, and he was the one that hadn't realised that Hermione was actually a...girl. Could it have been that JKR boosted their relationship because everyone wanted that? I cannot know. But maybe, it was the wrong choice.

I agree with what everyone has said already, about their sticking together because of their similarity. All three were or felt like outcasts and all of them could have made different choices, but they ended up being together. And as Elaine had said in the beginning, if Harry had been alone, the story would have been half as interesting!

Since we seem to have discussed a few general points concerning the trio, I would like to demonstrate another, rather ignored issue, which was pointed out by nevillesgirl. (Thank you Amanda! )

I will quote Amanda's words:



So, to sum it up, do you think that the trio was ready to drop out of school? Would this have been a wise choice had they not been so lucky? Or as David said, doesn't this action show how much Hermione and Ron were willing to risk in order to help their friend?

I really want to see what you think about this!

Thanks to Amanda once again for the suggestion!

I have to be honest and say that I always felt that the 'dropping out of school' thing was a little odd. They really didn't seem to learn much in their 6th year- we didn't really see a lot of school in general actually- and while Harry showed in OOTP an enormous potential when it came to DADA, his other subjects weren't fantastic. We know that he got pretty good grades, but we don't know what he learnt by getting them. However like you said, he pretty much showed that he wasn't prepared at the beginning of DH.

As for Hermione and Ron. I think that JKR has consistantly demonstrated an aspect of blind devotion. They don't always agree with him and they will tell him when he is wrong, but generally they supported him. However I feel that to some extent, the 'cause' may have been a contributing part of this devotion. Ron shows that while he supports Harry, there was several times where he cracked and walked out, which kinda suggests that- and please, No I'm not saying that Ron isn't a true friend or anything like that- a part of Ron's friendship to Harry was the 'cause' that Harry was fighting for.

It's almost a romanticism to it, where a person loves what another is fighting against and the justice and passion that is serves. I think it would be easy for anyone to get caught up in that, let alone someone who IS so close to Harry and IS a friend of theirs.

Ok, I'm going to discuss Amanda's question firstly.

Their dropping out of school might have been a not very well-thought act, but I believe that it was the only choice. What is more, had it not been for Hermione's and Ron's devotion (and their decision to drop out of school and go out on their own- especially for the "geek" Hermione), Harry would had never made it. Or at least, made it that well.

This is the part where fairytale comes storming in and our skepticism starts working. How could a guy like Harry, a teenager, with no great knowledge, logic and everything else, be such a great opponent against Voldemort and his team? In order to be an Auror not only you have to graduate with high grades, but also, get additional education. Harry had neither, but still he made it.

I don't think that they were made to repeat their seventh year. Instead, they probably graduated with honors and got the jobs they always wanted.

It's a story. It is supposed to have a happy ending. *sigh*


Now, coming to Pixymajik's post, I didn't understand the "cause" part. What did you mean by "cause"? That Ron's devotion to Harry was his admiration for what Harry had to achieve?

Well, that doesn't sound crazy to me. How many (real) people have followed great leaders being amazed and impressed by their work and their goals? Numerous. The only difference is that Harry was not a leader and that his purpose was imposed to him. But Ron was there, being firstly a friend, and secondly, a supporter, who had second thoughts if not for the purpose itself, for his participation in it.

There ISN'T anything wrong with being impressed with people's goals and work. However what I'm saying is that there are several occasions where it seems that Ron is friend's with Harry because of what he's trying to achieve, rather than who he is. Who, not being 'the great harry potter', but his character and personality. Ron and Harry often fight because Ron is jealous of Harry or because he does something that Ron doesn't agree with. IE- character differences. However when it has to do with the 'cause', Ron then supports him.

I think that being friends with Harry, Hermione and Ron did a lot of growing up in ways that they would never have expected to had they not known him. Because of this when the time came for fighting for his very survival, Harry looked at the bigger picture and when faced between giving up his education and his survival, there really was no contest. For Ron this would have been a no brainer. He knew what Harry had to do, he was never studious (the previously mention instances of Hermione doing their homework being an good example of this) and he also would have felt sure that he could be of some use to Harry as indeed he had been in the past.

For Hermione, one would imagine, this would have been a much harder descision. Right up until the point when Dumbledore was 'murdered' I expect she thought that her education would be complete and she's just help Harry out by teaching him a few charms. I think that the reality and enormity of the situation really hit home for her with Dumbledore's death and the arrival of the Death Eaters inside her safe haven.

So to answer the question Were the trio ready to drop out of school? Yes, I believe they were. They had to be, circumstance deemed it so whether they had learned enough magic or not was irrelavent. They would get by, and as it turned out they knew magic they could never have learned with the walls of Hogwarts Castle.

I have to agree with everything that all of you guys have said before me, seriously, there's no arguing the admiration Ron had for Harry or the fact that with Dumbledore's death there was no practical use for them to stay at school, but I'd like to add something to this last statement: safety.

With Dumbedore's death, the school wasn't safe anymore, at least for Harry. He had put upon himself the mission of going after the Horcruxes once he remained the only person to know of them (besides Ron and Hermione) and then it was clear that they would follow, but I want to believe that they had a clue as to what kind of regime they would face at school. The Ministry was being taken over, and in no time, they would be harassed by the officials taking over the school as well. It would be another Umbridge-like year, but this time without Dumbledore's protection.

I think their leaving school, even if not the best example for young kids, was the only way for them to remain alive. Even if later on we learn that Harry was being looked for, and then his accomplices, with the Death Eaters disguised as teachers and actually torturing the students, Unspeakable #1 and his Mudblood and Bloodtraitor friends would have come to an earlier meeting with Voldemort and without even getting a single Horcrux.

I'm not saying they did good, but I believe there was no other choice... It would have become another dark era for the Wizarding world, and without the knowledge of the Horcruxes because they stayed hermetic.

On the other hand, I believe that the quest wouldn't have been as successful if they had not been all together, and I do believe that Ginny would have helped if she was involved (except for the tiny issue that she still had the trace on her). Not only would they have avoided the jealousy issues, but she could have come up with some ideas and probably hexes to help out. Maybe even lessen the time they stayed at different places brainstorming for ideas.

I don't know. I mean I still think that they embarked on this quest vastly unprepared.

True, Ron was never particularly studious and it took him quite a long time to problem solve even the most basic of spells or situations so when I see him so willing to give up his education to help Harry, I have to wonder how helpful he really is going to be.
I guess for me it seems like Ron did more complaining and more worrying about his relationship with Hermione then coming up with solutions to assist with the Horcrux hunt.

Hermione is the nerd. Practically, she was the most prepared to face the situations the trio faced. Had it not been for Hermione, I am almost certain that Harry would not have packed nearly half of the items in that little purse and he would have found himself even more danger or dead a lot faster.

I guess for me I felt like Harry was putting himself into a situation without having the basic knowledge of spells that would assist in his victory. Right from Chapter 1 when he cut his finger on the teacup and realizes that he doesn't even know how to mend cuts had me thinking 'Oh gosh, this is going to be messy'.

I'm not sure if I was expecting a little more instruction over the summer before Harry left The Burrow, but he certainly did a lot of cleaning.

What I hope doesn't happen is that kids get the impression that is is okay to skive off education as long as the greater good is being fought for. I immediately think of college athletes who forego their last year or two of studies to join the draft for professional sports. In the end they think that money is the end all be all or that they can better take care of their families however what if in season one, they get a career ending injury? Now the college option is blown because they don't have that scholarship and they can't afford to go back on their own.
How possible would it have been for Harry to have suffered such and injury early in the Horcrux hunt? Then what?

Answering the question if the trio was prepared to drop out of school I have to say no, they were not prepared. None of them, not even Hermione had finished their education. Therefore I have to say that they probably missed an amount of education like defense or as Harry said in the first pages (someone referred to those lines) healing.
But I think the education is just one point of all this.

Mentally Harry knew actually that he had to face this one day on which he would have to defeat LV but I dont really know how a boy in his ages copes with it, especially when his mentor dies and suddenly he has to leave school and face the cruel world that is expecting him. How prepared can a 17 year-old be to do all this? I think even if he had waited another year and finished his education he would hardly be better off with the situation. He could never be prepard to do that. It would have been a surprise anyway I think.

Ron and Hermione however were probably even more surprised than him. They also knew all that and had maybe imagined how life would be when the day comes and Harry goes after LV. Probably they also decided silently that they would accompany him anyway, anytime. But I think it was much harder for them as they didn't really share the destiny. Both had family to leave behind and this in such a young age, Harry on the other hand lost everything close to a family and there was nobody that he was really leaving. So emotionally they were even more unprepared than Harry.

Yet they accompanied him, altough some betrayed him partly , although they may have felt unprepared.
I also have the awkward feeling that Hermione was feeling unprepared despite that tricky bag she had packed.
For example when Lupin offered his help and Harry "told him to go away" -I think it was Ron- who said that it would have been actually good if he were around as they would probably face magic that they had never seen before.
If they were prepared enough I don't think any of them considered to accept Lupin's offer.

To sum it up, they weren't prepared to do all this I think, even if they were prepared considering education, mentally it was a surprise and it would have always been a surprise...

I do believe that Harry would have never been prepared enough. To achieve the level of magic Voldemort was using, he should be studying for years and years, just like Dumbledore did. The truth is that Harry was not that smart or that capable as his opponent. Had it not been for everyone's help and the protection they offered, Harry would have been dead long ago.

I agree with that "safety" statement and I really liked the way Elaine presented it:



Once Dumbledore was dead, once someone had actually managed to kill the invincible Dumbledore, Hogwarts was no longer a place worthy staying.

So, leaving the school was actually a wise choice. An unwanted one, but still wise.

As for the "example" presented to kids, I believe that this is the last to worry about. For example, I wouldn't want my kid to read the ritual part at book 4, where Voldemort takes blood from Harry in order to be resurrected. I don't think that a kid could actually consider quitting school for a greater good. The athletes that do so are rather immature and conceited thinking that they will be forever young and competent. This is a question of a general education. I don't really think that someone could draw support from the sayings of a book...

I just found it interesting that these athletes who give up education to go pro in search of fame or money or what have you, sort of parallel Harry's life in such that they both were pretty much groomed for that purpose from the moment they understood it. From the day Harry was admitted into Hogwarts, he was following someone elses agenda, Dumbledores plan. I suppose this brings me right into the relationship Harry had with Dumbledore.

It is plain to see that Dumbledore cared very much for Harry. He seemed to be weighing the options of Harry's happiness vs. Harry's prophetic duty. This is the reason he gave for not disclosing the truth to Harry after Sirius died. All that does is show me that while Albus Dumbledore was grooming Harry to take on Voldemort, if not as an equal, certainly as someone who was capable, he did not fully trust in Harry's decision making abilities to choose what is right over what is easy. I'm not even sure that Dumbledore fully believed in Harry's ability to defeat the Dark Lord. He put heavy stock in Hermione and Ron being able to assist Harry and that is why he left them those items in his will.

I can't think of anyone else in the series whom Dumbledore took such an interest in perhaps except Tom Riddle and that was soley to keep an eye on him.

It's been a while since anyone posted, so I'm going to liven this topic up a little bit.

I believe we have demonstrated a few aspects of the trio's friendship, so I'm going to slightly change the topic, and refer to some other kind of relationship: family bonds.

While browsing through the series, we have the chance to see many different kind of families: he Dursleys, the Weasleys, the Blacks, the Malfoys, and even the Dumbledores.

Which is the ideal family for you?
How are these families compared to real-life ones? Are the Blacks a very rare example, or could they represent people with discriminations and stereotypes?

I'd like to see your views, before I post my own thoughts!

Feel free to talk about any kind of family or family bond we see in the books!

Ugh! I had a fabulous post and lost it!

I have so many opinions on the family relationships mentioned above but I think I will start with the Black family. I watched a documentary once about the ku klux klan (aka kkk). First off, I want to mention that if we have any members of the kkk active or not presently active on the site, my intention is not to offend and if my information is incorrect, it is mearly being regurgitated from the documentary I saw on television.

The kkk is a group that firmly believes in the supremecy of the white race. They actively teach there members and children this belief from an early age. The kkk holds gatherings that terrorize individuals and communities. They are a close-knitt community. The kkk openly discredits other racial groups especially Jews, African Americans and Latino. The kkk uses a variety of racial slurs to describe these particular races.

The Black family firmly believed in the supremecy of purebloods. They actively taught their children this concept since birth. They believed in the Death Eaters and supported their activities, even becoming proud when Regulus joined up actively. The Death Eaters terrorized individuals and/or communities who disagreed with them or openly opposed them. The Black family and Death Eaters openly verbally abused muggles, muggleborns and halfbloods. They used slurs like mudblood to discribe undesirable witches and wizards.

While this may not be the norm in many countries, it is certainly present in the U.S.

Personally I don't believe an ideal family exists even in the world created by JKR. Her best example is probably the Weasely family. They had nothing materially and financially yet they managed to instill in their children the difference between right and wrong. They taught equality and tolorance between the differing magical creatures. They taught them to value a person and respect life rather then blood status. To move into what irritates me about the Weasleys and family relationships is my issue with Molly.
Molly, when building relationships with her children, did something no parent should ever do; she compared her children to each other. Why didn't Fred and George get as many O.W.L.S as Percy? Ron was constantly on the recieving end of this. Poor Ron was compared to the brilliance of Bill and Percy, the Prefects and Headboys. Molly only really made a fuss about him after he was named Prefect in fifth year. He was terrible at Quidditch and Charlie was a legend. Ron was no where near as inventive and humerous as Fred and George. Ginny was 'mommys little girl' and was treated as such. In my opinion, Ron's confidence problems stemmed from his mother. Part of my issue may be that I just don't like the way JKR created the characterization of Molly in making her overbearing, manipulative and nagging and she did all of these things not just with her own children but her husband and Harry and Hermione as well.

Wow, I should probably stop for now before I get carried away. I will post on other family bonds later.

Wow! What a great post!

I want to talk about the Weasleys as well, and later on, I will post more about everyone else.

As Amanda said, the Weasleys are the only whole family which works well. The Weasleys are loving, caring, without prejudices and negative feelings against the others. They are pure-bloods, but they don't let this become the object of their obsession. They treat everyone equally and only by their actions.

The Weasleys have always been the safe haven for both Harry and Hermione. Molly was a substitute of Harry's mother, being over-protective and caring. Arthur on the other hand, was not the usual father figure. He was more "immature" and he treated his kids like friends of his. That's why, according to my opinion, Molly is so strict. One of the parents has to be more controlling and severe, so as to avoid the kids turning into rude, irrespective people. Yes, Molly is manipulating everyone else, but she felt she had to in order to protect her family and the people she cares for.

However, I do believe as well that she made huge mistake, which had a horrible impact on both the twins, and Ron. She compared the kids to each other, not realising that every kid is different and capable of achieving different things. Yes, Percy was the clever one, but he was also the one who dumped them at the first sign of glory. The twins on the other hand, were not good students, but they never gave up their family, even when they had their own life. They were present when needed. And Ron...yes, he was shy, he wasn't very great at Quidditch, but he was brave and he was always behind Harry helping him. He might have bailed a few times, but he had lots of courage Molly didn't recognize. My point is that every Weasley kid had different abilities and powers. Some of them could be easily discerned whilst others were hidden. It was wrong for Molly to judge this way.

However, the Weasleys always make me have a warm feeling inside. They are so kind and to me, they represent the ideal image of a well-functioning family. The only one in the series!

Great posts. Several opinions:
1. Drop-off from Hogwarts. It's been indicated with the departure of the Twins that leaving Hogwarts early doesn't mean the end of a career. The education system in the Wizarding world is not as closely tied to success as in the real world. That Harry can still be the Head of Auror despite not graduating from Hogwarts showed the value of abilities more than education.
Therefore, when Ron and Hermione decided to follow Harry and skipped the seventh year, it was not something really bothering them, except they felt somewhat incomplete without certain lessons.
2. Family bonds. Jo Rowling creates this big warm family in Weasley that serves as a sanctuary for Harry and Hermione. In fact, Hermione readily separated herself from her family (left them in Australia with altered identities and personalities), because she had found a home in the Weasleys. Harry never had a fulfilling family life in his young age, so he happily accepted the welcoming arms of the Weasleys.
3. The trio: In the beginning the glue of the trio was Ron. Harry found a friend in him. Hermione found a bickering partner in him. Ron provided the two with a warm wizarding family they never experienced in their lives before. Later on, the glue was Harry, as both of them constantly had to support him. Hermione played a role as surrogate mother when the trio were on the road.

Personally, I believe that it was a great sacrifice for Hermione to drop out of school. I don't think she minded about her career. What bothered her more was her not being able to acquire the knowledge Hogwarts offered to its students. She wanted to have the chance to take courses and learn more and more things about the world of magic. However, she had to sacrifise this desire in order to help her friend. As for Ron, I think he was happy he was given a reason to quit school.

I liked your point on Hermione's family. I never realised she actually "dumped" them. Yes, she did this in order to protect them, but she knew very well that she might die and her parents would have no sense of their past or of the fact that they once had a daughter. It was both unselfish and selfish this act. The reason why she felt attached to the Weasleys was because they accepted her, despite her being a "Mudblood", and they were able to provide her a very good picture of how a magical family works, and consequently, satisfy her curiosity.

As for your third part, I still believe that what brought the trio together was Harry and his story. The scar, the "boy who lived"...all these made him someone spectacular. Plus, Harry was protective of Hermione from the beginning. Or at least, more protective than Ron was, who made fun of her. Overall, it was Harry's adventures what made the trio stick together for so long. This and their common experiences.

It's really a great sacrifice for Hermione to drop out of school, because she has been using the school and her intelligence to be accepted in the wizarding world. I feel she did plan for her career, but she realised that the future of the wizarding world, and her own future, was determined by the outcome of the war with Voldemort. It's also clear to her that the outcome of the war was placed at the hand of Harry Potter, originally by the prophecy, later by the information from Dumbledore and the successes of Harry's adventures. Therefore, the priority was to assist Harry in defeating Voldemort. School and future became lower priorities, until the war was over.
Ron, as we know from the series, was presented from Harry's viewpoint. The brilliance of Jo Rowling is shown in how she can incorporate Harry's insecurity during his teenage years into his view of Ron. In simple way, Ron is not 100% the same as what Harry saw. However, we can still get to know the real Ron from another information provided by the author, through another sources. I don't think Ron was happy to be drop out. He wanted to be a Quidditch team captain and a Head Boy. As a Prefect, he could be a Head Boy in his seventh year. However, Ron placed his loyalty to friendship higher than his own ambition.
I see that some readers may still get confused about Ron in Harry's eyes compared to the real Ron. Sometimes, Harry's viewpoint was different from the reality. One example is in book 5 where Harry couldn't help but feel jealous that Ron was selected as a Prefect. Reading the passages from Harry's telling, we would feel that Ron was not up to his job. However, the author also showed that Harry's view might not entirely true.
(1) The teachers in general had admiration to Harry, but as for a Prefect, Harry may not be suitable, because of his uniqueness. Dumbledore chose for Ron, over Harry. Of course, from Harry's point-of-view, Dumbledore was actually thinking to select him, BUT.... (and many other reasons). In reality, Dumbledore and McGonagall would choose Ron anyway, because he was the one most qualified at that moment. Remember that Harry was an outcast at Hogwarts, presumed lying about Voldermort's return, until Rita's article appeared, which was long after Prefect's selection at the end of book 4 (by teachers, behind the scene). An outcast at school would not make a good Prefect candidate, wouldn't it?
So at the end of book 4, compared to Seamus, Neville and Dean, Ron was the most qualified to be a Prefect.
(2) Hermione's (wrong) reaction was definitely used as a red-herring. She got her badge and now she was eager to tell everyone about it. She saw the other badge on Harry's hand, so innocently she assumed that Harry was chosen as a Prefect, same as her. Fresh from book 4 memory, she must have predicted, as a Triwizard Champion, Harry would automatically be chosen as a Prefect. Ron would predict the same as well. However, when Hermione was informed about her mistake, she accepted that Ron would be suitable as a Prefect. One, definitely for politeness and friendship, but second, Hermione might have realised that the teachers must have a different view and that Ron would not be a wrong choice. In fact, Hermione might have some differences with Ron in doing the Prefect job, but in general, she was not complaining about it.
(3) When Harry was under attack from his own dorm-mates, Ron stood up for him and pulling rank (showing his badge). Immediately, the dorm-mates obeyed Ron's command. This gave a hint that his fellow Gryffindors accepted Ron's ability and position as a Prefect. We already saw how Ron could easily befriend his dorm-mates (compared to Harry) and later we see how they respected Ron (while showing dislike to Harry).
This is the real Ron, compared to Ron who Harry tried to belittle in his narration, understandably due to his teenage envy. We can also see how Ron actually managed his own in Quidditch matches and other tasks, behind Harry's back. So, Ron was really a reliable Gryffindor on his own, although his achievement (mostly at school) was pale compared to the special deeds of the legendary Harry Potter (including defeating the mighty Voldemort).

I find the correct interpretation of Ron's character and ability is a key to understand, why Harry needed Ron the most, and why Ron was a glue for the trio in the beginning. Of course, Hermione was also an irreplacable team member of the trio, but that's a different story.

A similar misinterpretation could also be happening for the assumption that "Harry was protective of Hermione from the beginning. Or at least, more protective than Ron was, who made fun of her." Harry was protective of Hermione. No doubt about it. However, we can't really judge that Harry was always more protective than Ron was. The first event on Halloween in book 1 showed how Harry was the one remembered about Hermione alone in the bathroom. Ron was a bit slow to remember such a thing. However, it was also shown later that:
(1) Harry was protective to many people. It's his "saving people" thing.
(2) Ron was the one more concerned about Hermione's well-being, during their "break-up" in book 3 or in later books. Later, the author led us to the underlying reason of it: Ron has romantic feeling for Hermione, whereas Harry simply treated Hermione as a friend.

All-in-all, the trio represented a solid relationship between three different personalities. This relationship was very important for the victory in the war against Voldemort. After the war, this changed in form, because Ron and Hermione built their family, while Harry built his own. However, the friendship would still last, especially now the trio became not just friends, but also family.

We had started a conversation on families in the HP series. I'd really like to see what you guys think about the way family is portrayed in the books.

A question that popped in my mind is this one:
Which family bond do you think represents you the most?

I know that most of you will talk about the Weasleys. But I also know that everyone has a sad story to tell. The Weasleys could be somewhat the ideal family compared to everyone else. But the other families have bits and pieces in them that appear in our families as well.

So...what do you think about it?

I'd like to talk about Dumbledore and his family a bit. In my opinion the life of Albus Dumbledore is one that people should aspire to have. He is the classic example of how someone should not allow their family circumstance, environment, reputation etc affect the kind of future they could have.

I am awed by the dedication and focus Albus must have had to keep his head down, focus and get top marks to have the kind of career he did despite the secrecy surrounding his sister. When I think about the anger and sense of injustice he must have felt when his father killed those muggle boys for hurting his sister and then got sent to Azkaban for life, essentially abandoning his family to fend for themselves and then ultimately dying in there...I mean, there was no justice for the Dumbledores. Albus grew up without a male father figure and took over as the head of the household. I can only imagine the humiliation that found Albus when his brother was prosecuted for something about goats. Also Albus wasn't even sure Aberforth could read and that is something that is hid in families normally.

We also know that the Dumbledore's relocated to Godrics Hallow. Albus was still in school and unlike public education where your classmates are also going to change, the good thing is that he still had the solidity of Hogwarts. However any relocation will bring some sense of stress to him and the family: A new neighborhood and new muggles to deal with.

All of these things could have drastically affected the way Albus grew up. He could have succumbed to the pressures of being fatherless and use it as an excuse that so many individuals in the world do these days but he didn't. This is where I identify the most I think with him. My biological father abandoned me and my brother when I was two years old and I haven't seen him in almost 31 years. I was lucky to have a stepfather who was fantastic but the nagging feeling of why at least he hasn't call or tried to look me up has always unnerved me. I am not a statistic. I am not one of the individuals who fell to ruin and depression and neither did Albus.

I also had in mind the Dumbledores when I posted yesterday.

The Dumbledores are a very good example of the family which keeps secrets, in order to protect the well-being of all the members. We've heard of many cases when parents hid their kids who had a problem, so as they avoid being laughed at or judged. People surrounding us always look for excuses to be mean and criticize as if they are better than everyone else. As if they are perfect. And we know very well that noone is perfect.

The Dumbledores felt the need to hide many family issues for these reasons. And so did Albus. We could have never guessed that he had such a complicated past. He didn't seem to be the kind of guy who had a disturbed family. He was reasonable, sane, successful. Very few people can do so well when they have such an awful past. Albus was different in many aspects. That's why he's always been admired by me. I realise he is a fictional character but he can be a great example to everyone.

He showed that we shouldn't let the past and actions we are not responsible for affect our future and our progress. He showed that we shouldn't carry someone else's burden on our back. And that we shouldn't sacrifise our abilities to fix someone else's mistake. He had to be the carrier of the family. But he was too brilliant to abandon a bright future. It was a hard choice. It was one however, that needed to be made.

Amanda, I'm glad to read that you didn't let this affect you. I know that it'd be hard for me not to torture myself with doubts, questions and ifs, so I'm really happy to see that you don't let all of these get in your way and become an obstacle to your life.

I'm afraid that as the fifth of six children that I would have to choose the boring Weasley family to compare my family life to, thought they're not a perfect fit by any stretch of the imagination.

Since that would be kind of boring, I want to return to the discussion about the trio at the beginning of this thread. Specifically, I was reminded of the relationship between Ron and Harry, and there's something that feels a bit off about the relationship so I'll toss it out there for you, then duck for cover as I have found that I have an underdeveloped sense of controversy.

Does Harry and Ron's relationship seem a bit feminized? It seems to me that the way Ron responded a lot of time was a bit unnatural for a boy to respond. At the very least, in my mind, his responses seemed more natural for a girl than for a boy.

For instance, if I were upset with my best friend for something (and I have been), I'd be far more likely to get in a fist fight with him (I might have done this once) than to storm off and not talk to him for a week (which I have never done). Once the fist fight was over we could be back to normal in the matter of a few hours or a day at most.

I've had friends that were much better athletes and got much more attention than I did. I was always just proud to be their friend, but it was never much more than that for me. I was never jealous of them.

Of course, that's just me, but I can't think of other friendships between boys that have been quite like Harry's and Ron's when it comes to the types of disagreements and fights they have, so I wonder if others think this could have been JKR putting too much of herself into this relationship, or do you think that I'm wrong and boys are very likely to act the way Harry and Ron do in the book?

I think the problem with Ron and Harry and the relationship they have is mainly due to the fact that they are written from a woman's perspective. Unless JKR had really spent long amounts of time with guys and had a lot of guy friends, I doubt that she could accurately depict many of the feelings and reactions that two separate teen boys have. I feel she did a better job on Harry than she did on Ron, but I think Ron could have a few literary excuses for his behaviour.

Ron may be a bit girly because he's the youngest son out of the Weasley family. He was the baby (besides Ginny), and he kind of got pushed aside. Course...in that case, maybe his baby-ish-ness shouldn't be so prominent because you would think he would have learned to fend for himself.

Jealousy...not real sure on that, other than the basic overshadowing topic that has been discussed before. About Ron being overshadowed by his entire family and yadda-yadda. I don't blame Ron for being jealous of Harry at some points. Harry got most of the attention most of the time, so it seemed only natural for Ron to get jealous. I guess what has to be looked at is that even though Harry was getting all the attention and Ron was getting none, they were still friends. But I suppose that's litrature for you.

Probably the main problem with their relationship was that it was from a woman's perspective, however, I do believe that there are some guys out there that could react the ways that Harry and Ron did. Maybe not the typical reaction of teen guys, but I wouldn't say they never react like that. Ron's personality could be a reason why so many girls like him--myself included--because they can relate to him so easily.

I agree with Aubrey. I think the reason why their friendship seemed so feminish was the fact that the book was written by a woman. No matter how many hours a woman spends with guys, she'll never be able to fully understand and adopt the ways they behave with each other. I do agree though with Sam's point that it doesn't seem so natural. Men have the tendency to solve their differences physically and then forget about it. Women on the other hand, are a little bit more selfish (?) or emotional; they prefer to make a big issue out of it. Thus, even if JKR spent hours watching guys, it'd feel unnatural to try and talk about that. It's always easier to write about things you experience yourself or imaginary situations. So, she did put in my opinion, her own perspective in the books. That's why Ron tends to be feminish at times.

As for the jealousy part, it is reasonable for me, though I'm a girl. Maybe guys don't have that thing, maybe they don't get jealous even when their pal gets the prettiest girl in the school. It might be one more characteristic that describes men. Or maybe not. Each person is different.

What do you all think about the Crouch family? They were one of the oldest and most respected pure blood families in the wizarding world and yet for all the success and money they had, their family was ultimately torn apart and destroyed.

I see the Crouch family as representative of the many families where fathers (or mothers) are workaholics. They dive into their jobs and rely mostly on their spouses to raise the children. In this very extreme case, Barty Crouch Jr. fell in with the wrong crowd and was sent to prision. Was this because he was rebelling against his father who was spending all his time at work trying to thwart this evil crowd or was it simply because Jr. felt like his parents didn't care what he did?

The Crouch family is the self-destroying kind of family. The reason why his son acted this way and joined the evil side was probably as you mentioned Amanda, the need to rebel against his father and show him that he could be great too. His father set a very high example for his son, being highly respected in the community of magicians and having an important post at the Ministry of Magic. This probably put too much pressure in his son, who figured out that the only way to fight against this was by following a way his father would certainly neglect. In the process, he realised he had enormous power and so, he pushed it to the limits, torturing people, feeling almost like a God. It may be a little bit extravagant but I could see Jr seeing his father's face at every person he tortured, killed, treated badly. The early years of one's life are very crucial for his character. The father might be absent because of his heavy schedule, but he was always the invisible eye of law standing upon him and judging him for his every action. This reminds me so much of Freud's book "Totem and taboo''. JKR must have done some studying.

This topic has gone quiet over the last few months. Let's see if we can jazz it up a bit.

I am wondering about the Malfoy family. One of the oldest families in wizard history who prize themselves on pureblood status and loyal supporters of Lord Voldemort. Lucius was one of the top Death Eaters and constantly striving to please Voldemort. I think he took real pleasure in the persecution of muggles and mudbloods. He was an outspoken parent as we have seen Draco parrot the views of his father. In the end, he was humiliated and yet still served the Dark Lord faithfully.

Narcissa though, seems to truly haved loved Draco. She seems truly pulled away from Voldemort the moment she realizes how deep her love for Draco was. It reminded me of Snape I guess in that the moment Voldemort went after Lily, his love, Severus' devotion for the Dark Lord began to wane.

I have very strong views on Draco and I know that some of my very good friends just him but I really don't and for the sake of staying on topic, I won't go into what I realy think of Draco. I think that Draco failed to gain a mind of his own and this was his downfall. He mimicked the belief of his father as so many young people in society do today. He fell victim to a vicious cycle of ignorance and hate and it almost cost him his life.

In the end though how do the Malfoys turn out? They apparently land on their feet whether it was old money that got them out of trouble with the Ministry or Narcissa's compassionate act I don't know. I don't know exactly if I believe the family to be repentent because Draco seemed so distant when he met Harry at platform 9 3/4. What became of Lucius? Was he disgraced and if so, how did that not disgrace the family name of Malfoy?

Actually, I have a slightly different opinion on the Malfoys. Lucius was indeed a Muggles hater but only because he was a pure-blood himself. What I don't support though is what you said Amanda, about his being faithful to Voldemort. I have the feeling that Lucius wanted to be with and among the strong ones and the winners, whether this was Voldemort or the Minister of Magic. I remember Voldemort saying to him in GoF "You never came looking for me". I think this happened because it was safer for Lucius to be a rich wizard with high acquaintances than be accused of Dark Magic. He had said I think that he was tricked into killing people. What I mean is that Lucius didn't have a choice in the first place, when Voldemort rose for the first time. It was either supporting him or being hunted down. He chose the first option but only because he thought, just like everyone else, that Voldemort was indestructible. When Voldemort was defeated, he tried to get out of it by saying he was under the Imperius curse. But when Voldemort regained his powers, he stood by his side again for he thought once more that his master was back for good. I'm pretty sure that as soon as Voldemort died, he claimed that Voldemort tortured him or something like that. Coward.

As for Narcissa, I was truly amazed when she saved Harry, risking her own life. It was truly brave of her. I feel that she had always been trapped into her husband choices. She liked being pure-blood and rich but her involvement with Voldemort was beyond her will.

As for Draco, he was just following blindly his father's will. He did nothing to be proud of really. That's why he kept his distance from Harry and the rest. He was probably ashamed of his past.

I think this is where Lucius had his most informed choice. He was indeed a muggle hater and truly did enjoyed his pure blood status. But to say that he didn't have a choice in where he and his family ended up is kind of watering down that issue. He chose where to align his loyalties. It suited his personality and superior upbringing perfectly.
When he chose not to look for his Master after Voldemort's fall, Lucius, like many of the Death Eaters, were in self preservation mode; stay out of Azkaban and out of Barty Crouch Sr. way. I don't think this was by any means a clue as to Lucius Malfoy's loyalty. He was just trying to say safe.

Lucius was indeed power hungry. He was all for Voldemort when he was in his Master's good graces. He was the role model for his son. I believe Draco learned how to dominate others by watching his father. I believe he learned how to manipulate others by watching his father. I also believe he learned his cowardice by watching his father.

Narcissa is the assessment I agree with the most. I think she was trapped by the very beginning. She had her family upbringing as a 'Black' to contend with and married for love and position. She supported her husband but only because she didn't have a choice. She really did love her son and that maternal instinct was pronounced in the end.

Well, I still believe that if Lucius could run away and never be found by Voldemort, he would have done so. But maybe his belief that his Master would win this time, gaining thus more power himself, was what kept him there, next to Voldemort.

I can't help but feel sorry for him and for Draco. In contrast to the good side, when you are among the bad guys, showing courage is not appraised. For example, Neville showed so much courage, and even if he had died, he would be honored by those who knew him. This would not be the case for neither of the Malfoys. I guess Lucius provoked it himself, but Draco...he was just the victim in this case. And how could he break free from all of this? He was too young and too weak not to end up dead by Voldemort's hands.

So, I guess this is some other kind of father-son relationship. It does remind me a little bit of Sirius and his parents. Only that Sirius had friends who could support him, like James and Lupin, so it was easier for him. As easy as it could be leaving your family anyways.

I want to weigh in on Draco. I believe at the beginning of HBP Draco thought himself to be a chosen one of Voldermort's, inducted as a Death Eater at a young age, he thought that Voldemort considered him to be special. It wasn't until he had been trying and trying to kill Dumbledore that he realized that the task at hand was futile. He realized he was being used by Voldemort to punish his parents for their failures and that kind of pressure is hard for anyone to bear, much less a 16 year old.

In DH when Harry and friends were brought to Malfoy Manor Draco didn't really want to help sentence his nemeses to death. He was "uncertain" in his answers to identifying Harry, Ron and Hermione, he didn't even want to look closely at them. After the trio and friends escaped from the Manor I'm sure Lucius was tortured even more and fell even farther from Voldemort's graces which is why Draco was intent on bringing Harry to Voldemort at the final battle. Draco really cared about his family and he was just trying to help the only family he had left (as I'm sure he no longer cared much for Bellatrix). Seeing the Malfoys alone in the Great Hall after the final battle appearing unsure of if they should be there made me feel some pity toward them. I will always see Lucius as vile, but Narcissa and Draco are just products of the environment Lucius put them in.

Draco's relationship with his family does remind me a bit of Sirius' relationship with his, however I don't really think that we can credit Sirius' break from them to his friendships with James and Lupin. If I remember correctly Sirius only just met them on the train his first year to Hogwarts and then was sorted promptly into Gryffindor so it seems pretty clear to me that despite the upbringing being forced upon him at home, Sirius still differentiated between his families views and discovering his own.

This was my greatest desire for Draco; to push aside his parents view of "humanity" and equality and discover for himself what was right. He never learned how to embrace individuality because the only example he had was watching his father doing the bidding of Voldemort, thus he became a manipulating, opportunistic bully as he grew up with Crabbe and Goyle as his cronies. He didn't even have the respect of them because in the final book, they wouldn't listen to him saying his father(Lucius) was no longer Voldemort's favorite, implying that they only respected Draco as long as his father was in good standing with the Dark Lord.

Draco's story is probably the second most disappointing thing about the series to me. Severus' ending was obviously my first.

Since Amanda brought it up, I think we could discuss a little bit the relationship between Lilly and Snape.

We know now that Snape and Lilly had met before joining Hogwarts. Lilly considered him to be a good friend and supported him when James and Sirius would pick at him. However, his loving for the dark side was what pushed Lilly away.

If Snape had not joined the dark side, do you think he and Lilly would have ended up together? Did Snape regret his decision? What pushed him into joining Voldemort? Was it somewhat like Pettigrew's case? Can you imagine a past where Lilly and Snape would have been married?

Severus and Lily.

I can see how Severus would be attracted to Lily Evans. She was beautiful and intelligent. She was smarmy and could hold her own against an onslaught of negetive opinions. She was the one person who saw the "softness" of Severus that even his parents missed. She got him on a level that few realized existed.

From the beginning of their friendship, Lily knew the kind of person Severus was. She witnessed him hurt Petunia with a tree branch when Petunia said something he didn't like. He was underage and let his emotions control the magic; one of the few times we see Severus not in control. Lily, being as studious as she probably was and with her curiousity about the magical world is sure to have done some research on the founding fathers of Hogwarts thus she would have had to question Severus' excitement at wanting to be a slytherin. She would have had to discover the history of the members of Slytherin and knowing their characteristics she still chose to befriend Severus. She clearly saw some of those characteristics in him.

I don't think that it was Lily and her rejection that pushed Severus to join Voldemort and the Death Eaters. I honestly think that Severus grew up having to defend himself from his abusive father and he built walls around himself for protection. I think when he got to Hogwarts and encountered James and Sirius on that train...he already knew he was going to need to keep his guard up around them...especially when they got sorted into Gryffindor and he in Slytherin. I think his natural affinity for the Dark Arts was something that was close to what Dumbledore had while in school and he studies and developed an interest/obession for them.
Unfortunately for Snape, the only other pupils with an affinity for the Dark Arts were rotten students with a mean streak and it is with them that he found his sense of belonging and identification. When it was time to join the Death Eaters, I think it was this sense of belonging that he had grown so accustomed too that he didn't want to lose that he joined.

Had Severus been able to keep his curiosity and love for the Dark Arts in check as Dumbledore had, perhaps he wouldn't have had a romantic relationship with Lily but his friendship would have remained in tact. I am not entirely sure that Lily would have ever wanted a romantic relationship with Severus. I am somewhat disappointed in her abandonment of him. She knew him better than anyone else. She should have understood his internal struggle for belonging, survival and self-worth because she knew the real story behind his childhood. She should have understood that when backed into a corner and being physically and mentally attacked by James and Sirius, his mind may have gone into self preservation mode thus spewing out that slur so offensive to her. She should have known that he really never felt that way about her.

I honestly think that Lily was Severus' one chance at love. By this I mean that he felt if she could love him, he was worthy of being loved by someone. When she rejected him completely, I feel that Severus felt that he was not capable of being loved by another person thus he became this emotionless pit in regards to human relationships.

I think that as adults we tend to forget what life was like as a teenager. Yes, Lily probably did know Severus better than he knew himself, but when your best friend turns on you when you're only trying to help, sometimes that action can ruin the whole friendship. I can think of a "best friend" in high school, a girl I'd been friends with since elementary school, someone I wouldn't expect to stab me in the back, but when the chips were down she did the unthinkable and spread an awful rumor about me because she wanted revenge for something I never did (a case of he said/she said and it was never verified). That destroyed a 7 year friendship. We eventually came to an understanding, but were never true friends again, mainly because I had been hurt too much by her actions.

All that being said, at the age of 15 I'm sure Lily was hurt beyond anything she could have imagined by her best friend. Sure, he apologized and I think she believed he was sorry, but you can't "unring a bell", and once "mudblood" had escaped Severus' lips he couldn't take it back no matter how sorry he was. It's hard for me to believe that Lily would have forgiven him no matter how old they were (15 or 25 or 55) that kind of insult would have hurt her too much, because the older they got the longer they would have been friends and the harder the insult would have been to take.

I do agree that Severus would have become a Death Eater even if he and Lily had stayed friends. And I believe that if they had been friends to that point, his joining the DEs would have destroyed their friendship. With that rationale, their friendship was doomed to end anyway. However, I think that had their friendship ended when he became a DE there is less of a chance that he would have done all he had to protect her son from Voldemort. The fact that their friendship ended because of his insulting Lily in the worst way possible (in her eyes) that made him so repentant to do anything for her. He realized that HE had destroyed the best thing in his life and he wanted to do all he could to preserve that.

Severus and Lily, what an intriuging relationship, one that opens up so many 'What Ifs'. In some ways, I like the Severus and Lily relationship more than hers with James, not in a romantic way, but because there is so much to explore in that reationship, and because it had so much potential. I wrote a fanfiction a while ago, showing snippets from Severus's life, from Lily and James's wedding, to his own death. I did not venture into their friendship at school because JK Rowling showed the important parts of that era already in the pensieve.

A question that I have asked myself constantly about this relationship is, would Lily and Severus have begun a friendship if they had not met before Hogwarts? I am inclined to believe not, because at the young age she was when they met, Lily was so curious and so sympathetic to this boy that any hints shown of his Dark Arts fancy, she would not have picked up. In her mind, this was simply a misunderstood boy that had opened up a brand new world of magic to her. Once they had entered Hogwarts however, his Dark Arts obsession would have begun to thrive, and become more obvious. Lily would not have entered into such a friendship once she knew what this obsession would mean. That is my belief, anyway.

But they did meet as young children, and so their friendship was still strong as they started their Hogwarts years. I agree that Lily would have known about Severus's love of the Dark Arts, but I don't think she knew everything about him. For example, I don't think she knew he loved her. I think, although he knew what his potential as a Death Eater was, she would have never believed it of him.

I agree with that, but I think that there were two sides to Severus, at least while he was at school, and Lily was an expert on only one side of him, the side that had befriended her as a child. The misunderstood boy who was simply misjudged because of who he spent time with. While she knew everything about that side of him, I believe that the Death Eater side of him, the part obsessed with the Dark Arts, was not known to Lily, or if it was, she chose to ignore it. I find it hard to believe that Lily would have remained best friends with him if she had known how he was beginning to turn out, or even if she knew he loved her.

When he called her "Mudblood", I think all was revealed to Lily. I think her eyes were finally opened to the fact that her best friend, the one she cared about above all else, had a dark nature she knew nothing about. She felt betrayed, and thus the friendship ended. If I were she, I would feel disgusted with myself that I had tricked myself so throughly.

I don't really think a romantic relationship could have begun with Severus and Lily, even with the intensity of his feelings for her. Setting aside the fact that they were best friends, and that would be a bit awkward, I think that by the time they were old enough for relationships, he had changed too much. I don't think Severus would have had the guts to betray his Slytherin friends and begun dating Lily, I think it would have been too hard for him. And why would she date him, when James Potter had begun to change into a wonderful young man and prospective boyfriend?
Even so, if he had found the courage to step away from his background and turn away from the Death Eaters for the sake of his love for Lily, yes, I think that could have worked.

I love the Lily/Severus relationship so much. It's one of the most complex relationships in the series, and I wish that I could have seen more of it. I mean, I know that it was often mentioned how Snape had regretted turning Lily in to Voldemort, and how much he loved her, but there was no reason why until the last book. If JK Rowling wrote a real prequel, I would love to see what their relationship was really like, and not have to settle for the little snippets she gives us in Deathly Hallows.

Like some of you have said, Lily really did know Severus well. Or, as Ali_Jesus_Freak said, she knew the side of him that she had befriended as a child well. She really understood that he was misunderstood, and that he wasn't treated the way he deserved to be treated.

But then, I disagree that she didn't know about the side of him that was drawn to the Dark Arts. I believe that she was aware of his dark side, but she wanted to help him keep away from that path. She warned him of what those who wanted to be Death Eaters did, and she made it clear that she disapproved. When he finally called her a mudblood, she had most likely had enough of him and his dark antics, and decided to drop him as a friend. That was the worst thing Snape could have done, calling her a mudblood.

It's interesting how Snape still loved Lily after she decided that she could no longer stand him. It's just sad to read about how he stayed faithful to her after her death, and decided to keep Harry safe, even though he was the son of James Potter, the man he hated the most while he was at Hogwarts.

Did Lily even have a clue as to how Severus felt about her? The reason I ask is because this changes how she percieved their friendship if she didn't know that he loved her. If Lily didn't know, then the reason she defended that relationship to her friends was because she thought she saw a selflessness deep down in Severus. It was revealed to her through the softness in his voice and the intensity to which he verbally bashed James. Lily may have taken that as protectiveness, like he was trying to look out for her. In reality, Severus was very selfish. He only did seemingly kind things or sounded sweet because he was infatuated with Lily. He couldn't help himself when he spoke to her, he couldn't sound harsh with her.

If she did know, what does that say about Lily? I am not trying to imply that it was bad because I don't think it was.

We also should keep in mind that Lily knew how into the Dark Arts Severus was already. They had lengthy conversations about magic before they actually started Hogwarts and like I said earlier, Lily is the type of student who would have done her research on the houses and founding fathers. She knew that Severus was looking forward to being in Slytherin and would have probably raised an eyebrow at the characteristics of that house. I am sure she saw some of them in Severus and she continued to befriend him. I don't think the "mudblood" incident opened her eyes as much as it confirmed for her that Severus really wasn't going to change.

I have seen some relationships throughout my years and this is a classic case of enableing. I mean over the years Lily has stood by Severus' side and defended him to everyone. Just like an alcoholic, Severus was drunk with the Dark Arts. Lily knew his dependency on magic, she saw it before they even went to Hogwarts. The more Snape learned about the Dark Arts the more Lily stood up for him.
Lily always saw the Severus that taught her who she was. The Severus that sat by her on the way to school. The Severus that was her best friend. Even when Snape became a Slytherin, Lily vowed to remain his friend no matter what her friends would say. Lily was devoted to their friendship. Snape, on the other hand was totally in love with Lily but was Lily ever in Love with Severus?

Yea I agree with you alkisti. Draco didn't have to suffer. And also Draco became the arrogant, self centered Pureblood maniac because of what his Dad made him. Maybe now after the war if Draco managed to walk free he will repent; I really hope he and Harry becomes kind of...I mean they can never be friends but be a little polite to each other and aquaintances to say the least..
I think Lily just saw Severus as her best friend. The friend who had told her magic. The friend who had been there for her since childhood. I am sure Lily loved Severus as her best friend. And something might have developed between them if they continued like that. Severus always liked her as we saw in the books. But I think James Potter was a bit of a jerk =) . For the Life of me I couldn't understand why Severus called Lily a mudblood, i mean how could he?

Another Relationship which I found very intriguing that I thought i will just mention it is Harry and Hermione's bonds. I think Hermione was a better friend than Ron. She stuck by Harry's side through thick and thin. She was there when people believed him a parseltounge. She was there when people abused him for the Triwizard thing. And lastly in the fight against Ron she stuck by him. Seeing from Hermione's perspective, I think it would have been a really hard thing for her to do, since she loved Ron. But she stuck by him because he was right. So i think the bond is very strong. But I am sure Harry values his friendship with Ron more. Even after what Ron did. Because He was Harry's best friend.

What about an other relationship? The one between the Weasley siblings. What do you think about their bonds? Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George, Ron, and Ginny. How did all these different characters manage to love and support each other? Does Percy seem like an outsider? Was there really a weight on Ron's shoulders, to do something special? And what about the kids' relationship with their parents? Do you think that Molly was discriminating her children? And Arthur, did he really act as a fatherly figure, or did he act as if he was one of the kids?

(It's a long question, so feel free to reply whichever aspect of it you'd like!)

They do share a great bond, don't they?
Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George, Ron, and Ginny. How did all these different characters manage to love and support each other?
I think the reason they all managed to love and support each other is because of the love and affection their Parents gave them.
Does Percy seem like an outsider?
I dont think Percy will be considered an outsider. They all accepted them with open arms even though Fred did sort of check whether he believed what he did. Then he also accepted him. But I am sure Percy will always feel the guilt of what he did.
Was there really a weight on Ron's shoulders, to do something special?
I suppose there was. Ron always had the sense of competition and will to do something awesome. He felt kind of Jealous of his brothers and Harry. Not in a bad way, just a competitive way.
Do you think that Molly was discriminating her children?
I dont think so. Molly was an over protective mother. But she was a great one. One of the best one could get. But I really hated her for what she said at Sirius.
And Arthur, did he really act as a fatherly figure, or did he act as if he was one of the kids?
Arthur is the best. He was a great father. He acted as one of the kids. He was babyish yes. But when it comes to something in which they need support and something like that. He was a firm, steady and kind father

I love the Weasley family, they really set an example of a loving and devoted family. Well, apart from Percy, but I think we can forgive him his mistake.

The Weasley siblings had a real and true example of true love to follow. Their parents were good people, and they lived in a world that generally accepted people easily, because they were all pretty strange! They all had their differences, but they looked past those differences and maintained a constant love for their siblings during their life. Each had their favourites, for example, Ginny and the twins got along better than say, Ginny and Perce, but this didnt matter, they still loved one another, due to the example set before them by the ones they loved.

If your referring to before his abandonment of the family, no, I don't think Percy was an outsider, but he was more an outsider than the others. Percy was different. He cared more about academics than jokes, respected the Ministry more than Dumbledore, things that set him apart from his family. He may well have felt like an outsider during his childhood. After the war, however, I think Percy would have fit in more. He did a great thing, sacrificing what he thought he believed and fought alongside his family, throwing his pride aside. For that, I think the family would have respected him more. Perhaps more than ever before.

I honestly feel sorry for Ron at times. I was reading a fanfiction the other day, and it really summed up Ron's torment. Everything he wanted, everything he shined at, someone else got. Quidditch, his favourite thing in the world, the thing he lived and breathed.... and Harry, who had never heard of the game, got on the team in first year. Even Charlie beat any skill he had at the game, he was well known for his flying skills. Prefect? Oh well, Bill and Percy got it first. Mischief? Who could notice Ron's next to the twins? Understandably, the thing he wanted most was to stand out, which he did in the end, but I still feel sympathetic towards him. No, I don't think he had a lot of weight on his shoulders, no-one expected much from him really. Everything he could shine at, a brother had already excelled at.

Molly...she annoyed me a bit before Deathly Hallows, who could forget her famous line there? I agree with Master of Death in this one, Molly wasnt discriminating, she was just fiercly over-protecting.

As for Arthur, sometimes I think he was a little irresponsible, but he didn't need to be! Molly was domineering enough for the two of them, she was the bad cop, so Arthur could afford to be more of a fun dad. I have to add though, there were times that Arthur stood up and acted like a responsible dad. But his fun loving side was what made him likable; do you think you would have liked him as much if, when the kids returned in the flying car with Harry, if he had yelled and screamed, and grounded them all for a week?! Of course not, he provided comic relief in the situation, and hence making him a loved character.

Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George, Ron, and Ginny. How did all these different characters manage to love and support each other?
It is very interesting examining the bonds between the siblings. The truth is that I'd love to have so many brothers and sisters, even if that would mean less stuff for me. Having all these people around you makes you feel safe. It is like having your own little community. They didn't even need friends. They had each other. Especially Fred and George, being twins, had a very strong bond. They needed noone else but each other. Noone could separate them. That was very nice. This is a relationship I'd love to have. A sibling that shares everything with you. Not only appearance, but also thoughts, interests and everything else. As for the rest, they were all different, but somehow, they would complete each other. That's the meaning of family, right?

Does Percy seem like an outsider?
Percy was always somewhat of an outsider. He was nerdy, he had high goals, and maybe he felt bad for his father, having a lousy job in the Ministry of Magic. He wanted to go higher, and in the process, he sacrificed his being with his family. But he changed his mind, and realized who his true allies were.

Was there really a weight on Ron's shoulders, to do something special?
Yes. Being the last of six brothers, he had to do something special to outshine, to be noticed. He wasn't a great student, he wasn't very good at Quidditch, he wasn't as famous as Harry, or as fun as Fred and George..He had a burden on his shoulders. I don't know if he ever got rid of it. He helped Harry, that's true. But Harry was the one who killed Voldemort. Poor Ron!

Do you think that Molly was discriminating her children?
Yes. She was judging Fred and George, for not being good students. Not the way all mothers do, but in a way of comparing her children. That was very bad for them. The twins didn't care, but I guess Ron did. His first brothers were very known, one working with the dragons, the other a good student with an important position. Percy was a straight As student, and the twins were loved by everyone. Ginny was the only girl. So yes, Molly was being judgmental and put a heavy weight on her kids' shoulders.

And Arthur, did he really act as a fatherly figure, or did he act as if he was one of the kids?
He was one of the kids. I don't mind that. But I do mind that he was never strict, that he never out any limits. Sure, the story wouldn't have been as fun if Arthur was as strict as Molly, but I would have liked him to be a little bit more like a father. That would have made Molly look less strict. Someone had to be the parent in the family.

Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred and George, Ron, and Ginny. How did all these different characters manage to love and support each other?

I think they managed to love each other because of the kind of atmosphere they lived in. Arthur and Molly were both, kind, loving and overall very nice people. They saw to it that their kids are the same and they taught them all the right path and to stay in peace throughout. All of them loved each other very much and inspite of the differences in them, they loved each other very much..

Does Percy seem like an outsider?
Yes, from the beginning he seemed a bit of outsider to me. He was very ambitious and rude at times, unlike his siblings. He was someone who cared more for his career and job then his family. The way he reacted in OOTP is very announing and I was not very surprised to read that. From the beginning he had very different ideas from the rest of the Weasleys.


Was there really a weight on Ron's shoulders, to do something special?
Yes, he had a huge weight on his shoulders.. As, alkisti said, everythiong he did was already dome by someone else. Quittdich, Harry and Charlie. Perfect, Bill and Percy.. Jokes, Fred and George. Still he struggled and made himself felt. Noone else in his family fought the dark arts.. Thus, he succeeded in doing so.. I am proud for this

Do you think that Molly was discriminating her children?
No, she never discriminated them. She treated them differently, thats all. She had to be more strict with the twins to make them study and she admired Bill and Percy because they were very sincere. She might have been tough at times but it was all for their good.

And, I think Arthur was apt when he behaved with them a bit loosely. He knew that if Molly was getting hard with them, he should keep calm and after her scolding them off, he would try to explain her point to tem more clearly and I must say, affectively. He knew that if he too shouted at them, they would never agree with them and maybe time might come when they would ditch them. It always happens that because parents don't explain their points clearly to the kids, kids tend to do excatly the opposite things.