JKR said that there was a lot in PoA that she thought might be looked back on when the other two books come out and people will say that it was put in there deliberately as foreshadowing.

Now I know all about the Ron/Hermione/Harry ship thing **yawn** and the graveyard business being cut, so I when I watched the film again last night, I was specifically looking for things that weren't in the books and didn't really have much significance in the film as far as plot advancement goes and I noticed something that I thought was pretty strange.

In the lesson with Buckbeak scene, Malfoy is shown eating a green apple. In the Boggart scene, Lupin is eating a red apple. Why? It would have taken effort to include those things...they serve no logical purpose...why on earth are they in there?

So I got to thinking...does JKR know about them? What do apples symbolise in mythology or folklore? Well...obviously, there's the Original Sin...the apple in the garden of Eden, symbolising...well...quite a lot really....but it was a snake that tempted Eve to eat the apple......

Then there's the apple in Snow White...a symbol of betrayal and death.....

The Greek goddess, Eris, started the Trojan war with an apple too, apparently...then there's the Golden Apples that the Hesperides were guarding (yep..that's where I pinched Erytheia's name from, Zyra... )... one of the labours of Hercules...

There are quite a few other stories about apples too...about their links with mortality for one....does this mean that Lupin and Malfoy will die in the HBP? I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this, I'm just playing with some ideas really...but there has to be something in it, don't you think? Do you think it's drawing some kind of link between Malfoy and Lupin for some reason? Why would one be red and the other green? Symbolic of their house colours, perhaps?

I dunno...any thoughts?

Well, I think people uses apple in stories, or myth, because :
- their delicious
- flexible (I mean potable / easy to carry)
- great
- healthy for our teeth
- nice
- you can eat them without peeling it and just eat it with the apple skin and all (not like other fruits)
-etc

For example, the wicked witch in 'Snow White' used an apple so she can eat it quicker because you don't need to peel it first, and die quickly, and the witch did not gave her a poisoned orange because you got to peel it first taking much more time to kill Snow White right?

But, In Harry Potter Malfoy was eating apples because he was hungry so was Mr. Lupin, and I don't think it resembles their houses because Prof. Flitwick or other Ravenclaws don't eat blue apples, do they?

Besides this was in the movie, they tend to make stuff up right?

So, I think there is no significance on apples with the story....

unless they mentioned this on the book, I'm not sure...

Well that's what I think!

Green for Slytherin and then Red for Gryffindor. Stranger things happen don't they?
BTW, they did go to a lot of effort in the apple scenes, continuity and all sorts of things. (which there is a mistake in)
JKR always uses an influence from another book, a type of character and things like that.

I suppose the question is:-

What can an apple possibly change?

I mean essentially it is just an apple. Well spotted though

I think you've both completely missed the point I was trying to make there.....**sigh**

Alright then...whatever......

Interesting concept, Louise. I do wonder if one or the other dies in HBP or book 7.
The green apple Malfoy eats could signify his betrayal of the good side, and his move to the DE's.
Then does that mean Lupin will die? I hope not.

Aaah... sharp eyes, Dana! I noticed Lupin was eating one (because my eyes couldn't wander anywhere else when he's on the screen... ) but not Draco...

JKR said that there would be things that we'll look up again in PoA and thinking that it was purposely done to foreshadows what will happen in later books. In a way, I think maybe Cuaron unconciously made Lupin and Draco ate the apples because I seriously don't think Cuaron knows what happen in later books, but when JKR saw that she didn't object because she thought it would go along with the story just fine and as the author she did knows what will happens. Cuaron might include it in to emphasize on house colour but it might not what JKR saw... it might meant something deeper instead...

As for the d word... Adam and Eve didn't obviously (or we wouldn't be here discussing this! ), interesting concept though having a snake to tempt them to eat it .... and no, Snow White didn't die either (well, almost... but still...). I'm still reading on the Greek mythology you talked about so, I'll get to you on that soon...

Although... I'm not sure I should tell you this, but I found this just now, (scroll down to the Isle of Avalon part... no, don't read about the cows!! ) and it stated that the Isle of Avalon in Welsh meant Isle of Apples (is it true?) and as hard as I had to say this, apparently Avalon in Celtic is the blissfully otherworld of the dead! ... although in paragraph 2, it said apples are a symbol of eternal youth or immortality (is there hope?)... hmm... I'm not an expert in myth and folklore though... but I thought it's an interesting insight nonetheless...

And I think there's another thing to consider at besides apples and that is why Draco eat a green one whereas Lupin a red one? What does these colours symbolise?

I have to get to you on that later... time constraint!

But you might want to check about it here... and here for extensive red and here for extensive green.. see ya!!

Mabye there will be magic apples. Maybe there's a conection between them other then they die. Maybe Lupin is a spy...and is like Malfoy. It sounds stupid, but werider things are possiable I guess.

yes in the special features section on the POA dvd there is an interview with JKR and Cuaron and JKR said that there were many clues in the third movies about the future books and that she got goosebumps watching them because she never told Cuaron to put them in he just put them in! And she said after reading the future books fans would look back to the third movie and say "hey, look that part is a clue to when _________.

I think it was one of those random things like when he ripped a page out of a book, to show he's all bad@$$. I find that HP are often guilty of reading way to much into things. I am gulitly of that too.

I did notice Lupin and Malfoy eating apples, but it didn't strike me as a possible foreshadowing of things to come. I didn't notice the different colors, so Dana could be right.

The things I noticed in the film are some things that Dumbledore, Sirius, and a student said. Dumbledore said two things that I thought could be foreshadowing of coming events. One was something to the effect of happiness being found even in the "darkest of times if one remembers to turn on the light". He also talked about letting Harry sleep in the Great Hall because he could go places in his dreams. These two speeches of Dumbledore made an impression on me.

Sirius talked about being able to find the people that love you in your heart when he said goodbye to Harry. Maybe this foreshadows a way he gets in touch with Sirius or his parents?

A student in the Great Hall spoke of trying to catch Sirius Black as trying to catch "smoke in your bare hands". Could this foreshadow something with trying to catch Voldemort?

Rowling said she noticed a couple of things that foreshadowed events in the last two books, so obviously I'm wrong about at least two things here. I may be wrong about all, but it's fun to try to guess. What do other people think?

Thats such a interesting idea (why is it that I search and search for added/missed things like that and yet always miss them ). You are so right, it would have taken substantial effort to include these supposedly meaningless actions and that they do seem rather out of context - I think that you are right, there could be something more to it.

I searched for any metaphorical meanings that may be connected to the series/the war/ trust etc, but I'm not entirely sure of the results (so please excuse my somewhat horrific attempts at analysing what I found )

The last quote is quite possibly the most relevant if you want to skip to that



This could possibly be related to Lupin/'Moony' with the moon connection. However, I'm not entirely sure about any connection with Draco - perhaps these two characters may be drawn together, as well as Dracos' being Green for Syltherin it could also be Green for Earth (I'm clutching at straws aren't I?)




This could perhaps be related to the fact that Lupin is so poor and is a teacher. conversely, Draco has considerable wealth (well his father does anyway ), given his selfish nature, it could stand to reason that he would not give to the poor - However, now Lupin is in a position of power as Draco has had to leave his wealth and status behind as he flees for his life (from both the order and the death eaters, having attempted and failed in his task to kill DD)



could this perhaps link to the freedom from a certain snakelike tyrannical leader, both for Draco (LV certainly has a hold over him) and for Lupins people (either the Order or the opressed Werewolves)



I'm really not sure about this one, but maybe the terms 'Keeper of..' and 'Giant' could point to a significant link between Draco and Lupin and Hagrid. Perhaps if you considered the apples as something else like Harry or a Hocrux - then that may have been stolen consequently causing the aging (or hinder the stoppage of death) of LV or well... I don't know really (I got lost with the names ) but this link sort of goes with the idea that apples may represent immortality



(so maybe Draco and Lupin will be fundamental in hiding a hocrux from LV)...



Maybe Lupin will protect and/or hide Draco




this was an interesting one, as I seem to remember that Draco polished his apple on his shirt first (I maybe wrong though) - perhahs this is symbolic of Dracos' pact with LV and Lupins secret (fluffy) missions against LV


However, this is the one that struck a chord with me (from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Apple/id/35104)



Lupin has already been shown true friendship in many ways, through the marauders learning the Animagus spell and Tonks and the faith DD showed in him etc. But it is also spot-on that Draco faced a lss through his own foolishness.

The last one is the closest I could find, admittedly the rest are a bit weak but there is definately a lot of symbolism behind Apples and it could shown an important link between these two characters, Good catch Michelle Dessler (sorry I couldn't be of more help, and that this post was so long, but you definately got me thinking about apples )

I think it's nothing more than a coincidence, but who knows what Alfonso was thinking when he was directing the movie, maybe that's why the movie was soooo horrible. But I don't think I would have noticed Lupin and Malfoy were eating apples and had some purpose in a million years.

Crikey, this is an old one! Where the heck did this come from?!

Yeah...one of my stranger little theories...back in the days when I still had some faith...*sigh*

Knowing how simple the series is now, I guess I was just looking too hard back when I posted this, especially when we were really scrabbling around for hints prior to the release of HBP.

All the same, I would still argue the point that there wasn't any need for them both to be eating anything, so why Cuaron included it beats the heck out of me. He put lots of things in that didn't need to be there - like that extended going-back-in-time business and the rather (it seems now) pointless H/Hr bits - and cut the things that did - like the Marauders. Who knows what was going through his mind?

But as there doesn't seem much else to really debate about in this series anymore other than Snape's guilt or innocence, I say heck, let's roll with it and have some fun theorising

So...Velvet, excellent post! You really did some digging there!! I think that the last example you gave though is most likely to be closer to some kind of truth though, especially as they were different colours. Red and green - opposing colours, just like Harry and Voldemort's eyes, Gryffindor and Slytherin... Though the connection between Malfoy and Lupin is perhaps a little harder to pin down. Maybe it's more in the relative positions they have on their 'sides', so to speak. Malfoy is the son of one of Voldemort's closest followers; Lupin is the son of...well...we don't know, but I guess he was very close to Dumbledore, perhaps *like* a son... Does that mean that Lupin will perhaps save Malfoy? Or maybe Lupin will protect him from Greyback...

I don't know... They're not two characters I would usually put together for any reason, but you've certainly given me some things to ponder on!

And it's a lot more credible that suggesting that Ginny or Hermione will be pregnant in the seventh book anyway!!!

I love Velvet’s research!

Here’s a still from CoS. Hello! The apples are red (with one eaten) in the Slytherin Common Room. I think you might be on to something Michelle_D. Either that or the director closely watched previous films and wanted to connect some imagery to his own.

Wow, a little sad to see Dana/Michelle all cynical ... but I'll press on, as I think there has to be relevance to the apples. I'm the first person to scream Coincidence! or Razoro Occuma! but two characters eating apples of different colors, a situation not in the book ... hmmm ...

First off, I don't think this is what JKR meant when she talked about Cuaron referencing the last two books. It's way too oblique (obscure?) an embedded symbolism to be something we notice, even in retrospect. For what I think about that quote, see here.

I've read through the different mythological interpretations posted (good work on that, gang!), but none of them jump right out at me. But maybe we're looking at it incorrectly ... perhaps there's no contrast between green and red, they each represent something on their own.

For example, in both cases of red apples (CoS, as pictured above, and Lupin), we see an underlying subtext of Transformation. In CoS, Harry and Ron are polyjuiced as Crabbe and Goyle and in PoA, well, it is Lupin we're talking about.

For the green apple, well, green is frequently a representative color of pestilence and injury, maybe it's foreshadowing for Malfoy's injury?

I think maybe we need to look at *all* foods, not just apples, because it might be the color of the food that's important, not the food item itself.

You're right chrth, there are quite a few times when red/green are shown (well it seems a lot more to me than other colours - or maybe I just notice them more )

Lady-L-Black actually posted some interesting stuff in the The Falling Of The Gryffindor Rubies, Is there any connection? thread http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...10395&st=15
which also related to the symbolism behind green/red - perhaps there could be some connection between the various use


Thats interesting, and it sort of links to the ideas presented in the 'Rubies' thread, that they symbolism fire, love, death(rebirth) etc- like the phoenix, dumbledore etc (all of which involve some sort of transformation IMHO)

(I've just woken up, so maybe it makes a lot more sense in my head now than it will when I wake-up properly, )


Thanks - sorry I did ramble on a bit (mostly nonsense too) but hopefully some of is a bit (maybe, a little, perhps ) relevant, maybe

I noticed Malfoy and Lupin eating apples, too [I actually really like the scene where Lupin's eating the apple and then jumps in front of Harry...I don't know why...heh. I like David Thewlis, and Lupin of course ]. I didn't really think much of it to be foreshadowing, but perhaps you're right.

When I noticed it, I actually thought it was quite funny to see Malfoy eat an apple during that lesson, and pointed it out to my friend and we laughed because it was so random. Why on earth would Malfoy be eating an apple during class? Who does that? Heh. But now that you mention it, I suppose there is something strange behind it. There are no coincidences,

<3