I'm not sure what the veil is (I'm hoping that it doesn't necessarily mean death since Sirius is my favorate character), and although DD and others state that he is dead - DD has been wrong before

Also in her many interview JK has definately said no to several theories - However, she has not once adamantly dismissed theories regarding sirius' death/not-death - so there is probably a lot more to it that initially revealed in Book 5 (hopefully )

Also, she apparently said that someone will show magic "late-in-life which is rare in the world she is writing about"- but has stated that it won't be Hps' aunt or a student or other child and said something like 'people exhibit magical tendancies from birth/early childhood if they have it' - so I was was thinking that maybe the 'LATE' part is the clue - for example the supposed veil-death of Sirius wuld make him the LATE Sirius black

what do you think?

I honestly think that it is a Gateway to the "other side." There is evidence of this becuase of what Dumbledore says (can't remember where i saw it ). I think it was in Book 5 when he is talking to Harry he says that the Department of Mystery's is working on things about death. I honestly think that that's what the Veil is!

What do you think?

I agree Nicky I think that we will find out about teh Veil, Sirius's death and alot more in Book 7. I also think that if something confusing in the previous books they will come clear in Book 7. As in cant wait untill it comes out to see if Sirius is really Dead!

This topic is going round in circles. So far we've gathered that some people think Sirius is dead, some think he's still alive somehow. Some say the veil is a death trap, others say it's a transportation device and so on and so forth. Is anyone else tired of reading the same old things? I am, I need some new theories people! Instead of this roundabout your all stuck on.

How about the veil is just a seperating unit that seperates that from the locked door? and that once you go in there you cant come back?

Althogh this also leads into another topic

Ah...English should be one of your main priorities to learn
If you actually read the messages, you will find that we are still talking about the veil, and not at all going off topic. The topic title is called the Veil. We are merely expressing our views on the matter.

Good thought Nicky! that might be exactly it.

I mean if the DoM is ressearching about a bunch of stuff what about new magic. Wow this is really confusing(not really)

Hi, Tahra and I were discussing a way to shut down the merry-go-round and it seems fitting that ideas or questions not covered in this thread about the Veil be given food for thought. Every couple of weeks we'll ask a question we'll work on it till we find a plausible solution or find it miraculously unsolvabe.

In what manner do Unspeakables potentially listen to those who've crossed the veil? Physiologically like the DA group tried? With Legilimency? Or with their hearts'?

I think that people who saw someone die, they can hear him right? Well if that's true why couldnt the other side just talk to them, and if the people on the other side can hear them they just talk normally, they just cant see each other. Or at least the people on our side can't.

Yeah I agree with you 'Harry_Potter_Fan', I think that might be why Harry nearly stepped through the veil, I suppose the veil kind of made him think about all of his family and friends that were dead and how badly he missed them. I have a feeling that the veil works with love, so I don't think it would work on Voldemort.

I think that perhaps the voices behind the Veil are distorted. If they weren't then they would have been able to make out what they were saying. We know of many ways that the Magical community use to communicate so to focus on that we are open to many possibilities.

If they listen with their hearts the room has to be completely silent. Ancient civilisations - and some today - use silence as a way to communicate with their own bodies and with the things they believe in. So if the Unspeakables were doing that they would need silence, and unless the voices behind the Veil wanted to communicate that way they too would have to be silent. Unless of course, only the Unsoeakables needed the silence around them to better hear the voices.

We know that in certain cases - i.e Harry and Voldemort - you don't need to be anywhere near the person to use Legilimency so this is actual a good option, if the people behind the Veil still have their own minds. Since we have no idea what the Veil actually does - despite many people campaigning that it means death, and so we've heard from both Dumbledore and Lupin - there could be a chance that once passing through the Veil the person retains their mind, body and soul. So therefore contacting them with Legilimency could work. But my only con about that would be that Harry and Voldemort had a prior connection, Harrys scar. So unless the person on the living side of the Veil had a similar connection to someone on the otherside it may not work.

Now, Physiologically. Could be interesting, but if my understanding of my dictionaries meaning of Physiology is correct, then it's highly unlikely they could use this means. My dictionary states that Physiology is the 'science dealing with the working of living organisms or their parts.' So unless the people who crossed over managed to get a piece of them out of the Veil for the Unspeakables to study and try to find out what happened to the bodies, I don't see how that could work.

I think the veil kills the person but it keeps the person's personality and mind, so you maybe able to talk to them through the veil. Just like people do in the Muggle world, they can contact ghosts, so maybe there is some kind of ceremony thing to communicate with the ghosts?

I definitely want to agree with you guys... I LOVE SIRIUS! However, DD did say that he was dead... and he is usually right. On the other hand, I think that there will be future communications between Sirius and Harry via the 2-way mirror.

You can have death without a body. Think of all the people who have drowned and their bodies never recovered, or people trapped undergound. There can be death without bodies, it's just harder to say goodbye when their isn't one.

Now if you're going to argue about whether Dumbledore was right or wrong please get out of here and go to a relevant topic. This one is about the Veil. A Question has been put up so answer it if you can. Don't go off on a tangent again.

With regards to the questions about unmentionables

I, (although I'm usually wrong ), think that perhaps those who have experienced death and can hear the voices and are drawn to it (like harry, luna etc) may have started studying it in the first place because of the 'draw' of it and interest, and as with many subjects it may have grown - so maybe those who were possibly employed after the initial interest who haven't experienced death will not be able to hear the voices, but COULD be of some help in any studies as a sort of 'control group' (i do think, however, that most adult witches seem to have experienced anyway, even in the real world you don't really get past about 35 without having someone die) like they could do tests and compare the reactions of those that can hear/experienced death with those that can't/haven't

I'm probably wrong tho
_____________________________________
Edit: I've just read this from QuickQuote Quill (sorry ) -

JKR: The veil's been there as long as the Ministry of Magic has been there, and the Ministry of Magic has been there, not as long as Hogwarts, but a long time. We’re talking hundreds of years. It's not particularly important to know exactly when, but centuries, definitely.

MA: Was it used as an execution chamber or just studying?

JKR: No, it's just studying. The Department of Mysteries is all about studying. They study the mind, the universe, death…

so this confirms that it is JUST used for studying death -

Maybe, the voices behind the Veil aren't dead, but I still don't see how they can get out of there. Maybe it's like a maze where you can never find your way out. But the thing that bothers me, is that if the people behind the veil arent dead then why can Harry and Luna hear them and nobody else can? I think it is because they have seen someone die that they were very close too. Kind of lie the Thestrals. Maybe it is a different form of Dark Magic nobody has heard of.

Ya maybe, but then why wouldnt some one say 'Help im not dead you.' I mean all they have to do is hear someone outside and say that.

Yeah, good point 'Harry_Potter_Fan', but you couldn't actually hear what they were saying, maybe it draws you in with curoisity, because you want ton hear what they are saying. Or you would have to be forded in using a spell, etc like Sirius was.

Ya maybe. That kinda would be freaky to watch/read. Like Harry go's back to the veil, and he's like. Whats behind this Veil, whos talking behind there. I cant hear them, thats it im going in.

You gotta admit that would be weird

You know...I just realized something.

"On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too."

Harry, Ginny, Luna, and Neville were affected by the veil. Hermione and Ron weren't. Guess what the first four have in common? Harry and Ginny had been directly affected by Lord Voldemort because of an Unforgivable Curse (doesn't count with Moody in fourth year because he's not Voldemort). Harry had a Killing Curse sent at him, but he obviously survived. Ginny was put under the Imperius Curse, I think, because she was being controlled by Tom Riddle. Harry, Luna, and Neville were able to see the thestrals. Maybe if you were so important that Voldemort actually used an Unforgivable Curse on you, or if you had seen death itself, you could hear the voices in the veil.

Good point 'Candy_Cauldron'. I agrre with you I think it might be if you have had an Unforgiveable Curse used on you. An I also think is is something to do with death, it may a new kind of dark magic like I have said before.

Ya i think the whole thread has agreed that the veil has to do with death. And ya i think you do have to have a unforgivable curse on you. or seen death good thinking!

Bravo, you all seem to have gotten back on that merry-go-round.

Since I seem to be the only one who wishes to discuss ways of communicating with the people or things behind the veil I'll continue.

We all know that there are ways of detecting Dark Magic and Dark Wizards. For example Moody's equipment. More to the point - the Foe Glass. Now, what if the Ministry invented a way to make the Foe Glass able to see what's behind the veil. Or to see who is behind the veil. Moody said that he can't tell who is after him until they get close. So why not use it for the Veil? Some modifications would need to be made to the spells used on it so it didn't just pick up the bad sort but it might work. That way they could have an idea of who is behind it and whether or not their dead or alive. The voices might still be distorted but they could mime their story.

Or on another wave - Riddles Diary. Well the idea behind it. The idea to be able to comminucate with the world long after you have left it, or in Riddles case, leave a part of you behind. If they could bewitch two books, one to go through the veil and the other to mimic what's being written on the first one, then they'd have another way to communicate with the beings. Of course that would only work if the beings behind the Veil were capable of holding a quill. But to overcome that the book could be bewitched to take notes like Rita Skeeters Quick Quotes Quill.

Any thoughts about those two options?

I do think that your statement is a little unfounded since quite a few people attempted to answer the question (although my attempt was a little muddled )

Sorry, I've just re-read my post earlier and I seem to have been suffering from a lack of decent describing skills again - what I meant to have said was...

maybe they use different individuals reactions to the veil (i.e. those that are attracted to it (test subjects) versus those that aren't (control subjects)) to study it rather than employing some other method, Sorry if my post made it seem like I was a little off-topic (I'm hopeless at explaining myself at the mo' ) but usually when we start studying something that we know little/nothing about that is where we start by dividing individuals into differentiating groups based on their reactions - thus through determining what seperates thiose that can and can't hear the voices they could then expand upon that knowledge to develop a means of communication, like (silly example warning ) if all those wearing yellow could hear the vices then the communications device may be yellow or something - just my thought


I do like your idea about the foe glass - I didn't even consider that, although I'm not even close to being good enough at physics to concieve how it may work, perhaps like through the veil it may be like a camera where you may have to reflect the image off more than one mirror to attain the desired image indirectly

- but on a sort of similar (although probably only similar in my mind ) note - what about some sort of modification of the pensieve - sort of somehow attaining the memories of those behind the glass, from which the unmentionable could study it indirectly (or something - like I said I'm hopeless at explaining myself )

I'm not entirely sure about the book - because isn't it a hocrux and would therefor involve murder to enable its creation BUT I (Hopefully) get what you mean - if they could develop some sort of way of devicing a means of communication through a diary/written word without that nasty murder aspect , that would be most helpful to them ...

...and probably that sort or indirect communication rather than trying to listen directly through the veil is on the right lines

I'm new to the site, and this is my first posting on this thread (so please be nice! )

Here are my basic theories about The Veil:
I think that it represents the veil that seperates the two different worlds/dimensions of reality of the living and the dead. I think it seperates the physical barrier that a person crosses when they actually die.

By "die" I mean not only the physical process of their body dying, but also the process of the soul and mind of the person leaving - what I guess you could call "discorporation"... I read Pet Sematary by Stephen King a long time ago, but I remember the whole part with Victor Pascow (where the little boy had a dream/vision of him, and called him 'Victor Paxcow') where he described the process of physically dying and his soul/spirit leaving his body... I don't have the book to cite, but basically I base part of my theory on that. (Its easier for me to cite that than my religious beliefs, because I don't want to bring religon - which differs from person to person - into this because it might lead to a misunderstanding...

I think both sides of the veil are not accessable to those on the other side under ordinary circumstances. Those on the death side cannot cross over to the side of the living, and those on the living side cannot cross over to the other side (unless they die).

The voices that Luna and others hear coming from the veil could be the result of a couple of things in my mind... first, they could be the voices of the dead that the person knows - and they could be audible so that the person knows that they are dead, but they are not really gone, they just exist in a different realm/dimension of being. Secondly, I think that hearing the voices may be a special thing, in that it is an indication that someone has some "seeing" capabilities. Maybe it shows that the person has the potential or talent to communicate with those on the other side... that if they work on developing their listening skills (kinda like Harry was practising his Occlumency and Legellimency (sp?)) they could hear clearly what the voices had to say.

As for the abilty to find out who is on the death side or what messages they may have for people on the living side, TriadOfDarkness and Velvet, I really like your ideas about using a Foe Glass, Quick Quotes Quill or some recording device sent through the veil to record information. When I read your suggestions, it reminded me of a space probe... and I think its a really good idea.

I hope JKR either answers our questions about the veil in an interview or in book seven... till then, I'd love to discuss theories with you guys!

Peace!

triadofdarkness

i really like your idea...but why hasnt it been attempted? or has it? hmmm. The veil is so mysterious, im a bit gutted that JKR didnt mention it in the sixth book...


As far as the voices go... it appeared that only Luna and Harry heard them behind the veil, could this be similar to the thestrals? Maybe Harry heard the voice of Cedric as he technically as JRK describe only saw Cedric die, and not his parents...

also, i hate to refer to a tv show, but there was this one charmed episode where the three sisters who are witches find that there is an alter universe where everything is opposite, like they are 'bad' in the other world... to elaborate, police officers break the law and so forth. THis other world balances the level between good and evil...anyways the way they got to this other world was by a mirror behind a veil...

okay i kind of forgot my point, but I guess I was more making a connection of the veil being in another magical series...

To glamourchochang,
It was only Luna and Harry that could hear the voices behind the veil, but Ginny was staring at it transfixed aswell. Could she have heard the voices? I used to watch Charmed, but that does seem quite a good theory that this 'world' behind the veil is where everything is back to front. I however think that there is no good or evilin ths world, so everything is kind of the same if you know what I mean, which you probably don't, but still...
To TriadOfDarkness,
I did answer the ways of communicating with people behind the veil, but there is only so much you can write about it.

OK, so, forgive the newbie if I'm about to say anything that's been proposed already.

I've always been fascinated by the veil, and always associated it with Thestrals. Not because I think they're actually related... it's more the idea behind them that kind of links them in my mind. It's coincidental that Harry and Luna... the ones who have been most affected by death and therefore able to see Thestrals, are also the only ones to be sensitive to any action behind the veil. Is it that Harry and Luna can hear the noise beyond the veil because they have come very close to death, or is it because they're just more perceptive than the rest of the group? I don't know, but I've always related to veil with death. I don't have OotP in front of me, so it could be that I'm linking the two because of some obvious point made in the text, and if I am, slab a dunce cap on my head and disregard this post because I'm stating the obvious. Anyway, I have always considered the veil to be something tangled up in death, wizarding afterlife, and so on. I'm not sure if it's because of the whole Harry/Luna/Thestrals relationship, or because of the veil's role in Sirius's death, or because of a clue in the books, or maybe it's all of that.. but I'm just throwing it out there. If the veil is to do with death and afterlife, and Harry and Luna are sensitive to it because of their encounters with death... then what does that mean for book seven?

Anyway, just throwing all that out there. And again, like I said, sorry if Im just saying what everyone's said a million times over... I can never figure out when my originality switch is on or off...

I think the veil is something to do with death and another world is behind there, like i have explained before where there is no good or evil, or it could be a kind of afterlife. You know like the Egyptians believed in. I read somewhere on the internet that JKR had said that the veil had been there ever since the Ministry of Magic was built that it was just built to study death. When Sirius had just fell through the veil so unexpectably I suppose that shows how unexpected death can be, one day everything could be normal the next someone you care a lot about could just die.

I dunno if anyone has posted this, but 23 pages...a little lazy.
Anyways, Perhaps the veil is a trap? Perhaps when you fall through you are stuck there. Maybe you are trapped between the world of the living and the dead. The whispers Harry heard could have been people asking for his help. Just another far fetched theory though...

I also think that Dumbledore doesn't know everything. He seems unbeatable, wise, and all knowing but inside he is confused and stressed from the pressure of the world on his shoulders to make good decisions. In my opinion I think J. K. Rowling didn't do too good of a job describing teh Veil. I think she is the best writer ever put on this planet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but i still can't really capture what the Veil looks like. I'd have to say that there isn't enough information in my opinion to make a hypothesis about the Veil, currently.

Ok, time for another question now. Tuitus came up with this one not too long ago:

If the archway were destroyed and it simulates the state of Death would all the occupants beyond it be destroyed with it?

In my opinion I would say maybe. If there are multiple Veils then they wouldn't be destroyed along with one of the portals but if all of them were then I think the people/voices behind the veil would cease to exist.

If there is only the one Veil then I don't see how the occupants could be said to be 'alive' if there is no way for them to get in or out when the Veil is destroyed. If they are dead then it won't matter because it would just be like crossing over, no-one would be able to hear them so in effect they wouldn't exist.

What do the rest of you think about this new question?

I think there is only one veil, and JK Rowling said in an interview that the veil was put in the Ministry of Magic when it was built. Here is the quote:

MA: Our third winner question is from Monique Padelis, who’s 15, of Surrey. How and when was the veil created?

JKR: The veil's been there as long as the Ministry of Magic has been there, and the Ministry of Magic has been there, not as long as Hogwarts, but a long time. We’re talking hundreds of years. It's not particularly important to know exactly when, but centuries, definitely.

If you want ot read the rest of the interview, click here.

So I think all of the people behind the veil are dead, and the veil is a way of contacting or hearing the dead. If the veil was destroyed I think it would be extremely hard to learn more about death, and discover all of its hidden secrets!

hi i'm knew to this, but i'm pretty sure that there are alot of things dd don't know. if he knew everything wouldn't he have been able to stop sirius from going to harry's rescue and wouldn't he have known what harry was planning to do. anyway, as for the veil, i do think that sirius is dead but i hope harry would be able to see him again, because hadn't harry spoken to his mother, father and cedric in the grave yard, well i think there has to be a way for harry and sirius to meet.

Hello aripha19! And welcome to Veritaserum! Could I point you to the rules section. The link is in my signature. There you will be able to find out all you need to know about this site. There is also a section [Newbie Central] which is also a good place to visit. If you have any questions about absolutley anything don' hesitate to contact myself or one of the other Mods. We're always happy to help!

Harry only saw his parents because of Priori Incantatem. I doubt he'd be able to see Sirius that way because he didn't die by way of a spell. Fair enough we don't know how he died, or if he's really dead for arguements sake, but I'm sure it wasn't because of a spell. I'll have to re-read that book again.

About the question that I posted up a few days back.

If all that is keeping the Veil upright is the Frame around it, then for the place behind it to remain open the frame has to remain. Otherwise there would be a sort of Worm Hole and that doesn't seem stable. So if they were to destroy the frame I think the whole thing would be destroyed and all hope of rescuing the people behind it, or even learning more about it, would be lost. This leads me onto another question. If you took away the curtain - what would you see?

wat is every1 talking about?? [size=7][font=Arial Narrow]

MOD EDIT: PLease go back and take a look at the rules. One line posts are not permitted on the forums. Also, netspeak (what, every1)is not permitted as well. If you want to know what people are talking about, I siggest reading the previous posts.

Ok, the veill... aah the veil...

Listen, you guys are going to try to convince me otherwise, and I am going to argue my point, and it's going to be a merry-go-round, so let's not bother...

I think Sirius is coming back. I think that just because he is in the "world of the dead" does not mean that he is dead. Let me show you why...


The preceding questions can be read in the interview's entirety here

So, I believe Sirius will indeed be seen again in book 7
And it has nothing to do with me being madly in love with Sirius

So, you see, the veil can't make you die. It has to simply be a gateway to the dead.
The ministry has been studying the veil since it got there. They must know quite a bit about it by now. I'm sure we will find out more in book 7.

Fascinating topic! I see the veil as a magical tunnel to the Death, created by some wizards/witches who found the path to the Other World. Kind of a breach in dimensional barrier.
Basically those who were behind the veil are considered dead. I feel the veil will play a big role in Book 7 during one of the battles.

Ya I agree on the part about how the Veil and the Death Chamber(also the ancient arch) will play a huge part. I think that the Arch plus the Veil are like the passage-way to death. And like the Thestrals, if you have seen someone die than they will talk to you through the veil or something.

I think that the Veil is a kind of pathway to the Oblivion - where there is nothing. I think that once you travel through the curtain, you will come to a world of neverending space where you just merely exist. Maybe at first, you can still feel emotion and all that, but soon will kind of just lose the will to live altogether. This is close enough to the place known as 'Death', so once you pass there, you actually are considered dead.

Just my crraaazy theory,
*Padfoot*

Oblivion - I like that. It fits in well to me Journey Into Oblivion signature.......

But nah, it's a good theory. I was so consumed with every other theory that I never even thought about it being neverending space. How scared would you be? Well if like you said, at the beginning you could feel emotion. I reckon Sirius would have been scared but he's proably lost all feeling now. Bet he likes it there. If it is Oblivion. I like that....as I've said before. A void so-to-speak. Nice!

The fact of the matter is, Harry never pulled back the curtain after sirius fell through, so currently, we do not know what exists behind the veil. Personally, I believe that it is some sort of way to move between life and death. Lupin clearly knew something of the matter because he strongly cautioned Harry to not touch the veil, to not even TRY to save sirius. Who would really take no action to save their best friend if they had the knowledge that Harry had at that time period? Nobody, I'm sure. I am almost positive that someone from th order will instruct Harry on the true meaning of the veil, possibly lupin. For now, the theories are very open-ended (as you can already see, I'm sure).

MYM