i am kinda unsure about the whole veil situation...i am pretty sure that some one knows more about it though..and harry will find out.....i hope......and i think it will be some one from the order who tells him...possibly Lupin..... Even though it was established that Siruis is dead....i am hoping that some way will be revealed about the veil so that Harry can save him.

I think that there is more to the Veil, I mean, I asked myself while reading the part over and over again, "Why did Lupin stop him? I mean, is there something wrong with it?". I think Lupin knows that if you go through the veil, you wont be able to come out. I think that its like the chair, I mean, what if the Ministry uses this when the Dementers have preformed the "kiss" on a prisoner. After they are souless, they go into the veil, where they are sealed in forever. I mean, there are many prisoners that have been given the kiss, thats why its so famous right? But has anyone seen a souless body? Thats why Lupin stopped Harry, so he wouldn't be traped, thats why Sirius didn't come back, thats why Harry and Luna heard voices. Another theory is, I think Harry and Luna are both able to hear souls? I mean, Harry fainted, maybe its possible that Luna fainted as well, one reason i think this is because she is usually an outcast until the 5th book, shes always in a empty compartment, what if that night she was in an empty compartment, she fainted, no one noticed because half the people at Hogwarts don't know her.

I think that there are a lot of similarities between Harry and Luna's life. But don't forget that Neville was wigging out as well when he was near the veil. It has to be a connection to death. The dementor connection is that they have all faced horrors, they could have possibly fainted, we never know what Neville is up to on the train in their third year. IT is possible that the veil harbors lost souls of the dead, or imprsioned ones. Perhaps it could be a gate way, but I highly doubt it. But the deep connection and hte voices that Luna and Harry heard that night suggests that the souls of voices are those of his loved ones trying to reach out, or that Harry and Luna can hear any dead. The possibilities are endless. I think that as they past, their tragic lives were attached to the veil somehow, and that it will come into play in book seven.

Now whether or not the veil is a two gateway (with the door that melted Harry's knife) or just a compartment of those who have fallen into it (i.e. the veil is the only way in and out), Harry will defeat the power within it, and we will either see Sirius freed or see his ghost/soul freed.

I totally don't understand what the veil is about. I don't get it it. Is it like a sheet of fabric or something ?

Mod Edit: Hi rupert92. I would like to point you to the rules thread (the link is in my signature), which I think will help you better understand the site as short posts aren't exactly helping the topic flow. If you have any questions fel free to PM me or another Mod. Thanks.

Triad OfDarkness

^ I could never picture the veil when i read the book. I think its a cube in the middle of the circular room, and on one side there is a cloth.

I think that the veil will play an important role in the next book. I do believe that Sirius is dead, but i think that there is something more to it. None of us know for sure what is behind the veil, but Luna said that there were voices. I also think that the two way mirror that Sirius gave Harry will play a part.

I think that the veil traps peoples' souls that have unfinished buisness in the world. Sirius is probably dead, but maybe his soul is trapped in there and Harry can find a way to free it, or at least talk to him using the mirror. It definitely has a significance that Neville freaked out and Luna and Harry both heard the voices. The veil has to be connected with death, so maybe they can find a way to get/see inside without getting trapped. I think that if he just walked in there it would kill him because Lupin wouldn't let him go. I don't know, we'll all find out soon enough.

Ok, since we seem to have re-newed interest in this topic how about we discuss a question. I put it up ages ago but hardly anyone answered it, so maybe you guys would like to give your thoughts on it.

If the Veil was destroyed, would that destroy the souls/people/things behind it?

I've seen some people say that the Veil might be the only way in and out so what would your answer be to this question? I'd also like to know if any of you have thought about the Other Ministries for Magic throughout the world having a Veil as well. and if they do could they all be connected in some way?

good question. to me if you are "in the veil" you are neither living nor dead but perhaps lost forever. maybe people really do die after they go into the veil, who knows. if the veil were destroyed i think that the souls/people would be gone as well because there would be nothing left of them. the veil is still yet a mystery that hopefully will be revealed more later on.

Im not sure if anyone else already posted this, i didnt have a chance to read all 24 pages of this topic....but does anyone see the simialrities between the Veil and the Paths of the Dead in Tolkien. Aragorn was told not to go in there for no-one else has ever returned, and everyone is now telling harry that Sirius wont return because noone else has ever come back out of the veil. I just wanted to note the similarities, i hope for all Sirius lovers out there that he does return but lets just hope he doesnt come out witha an amry of dead people like in LOTR.... because that would be pushing it

Someone could definitly go behind the veil- there must be more to it!?

MOD EDIT: One-liner is not allowed. Please elaborate next time. ~zyra

no one said you couldnt go "behind the veil" only you couldnt go through, im not sure who you are responding to, maybe you should elaborate a little more so we could reply and have a satisfactory discussion

there's more to the veil that jk isn't telling us and i hope more might be revealed in the last book but i doubt it. the veil is a definite mystery to all and there are some definte questions/answers behind there.

I completely agree, I wonder why the ministry stopped using it, maybe they realized it doesnt kill you and that it just puts you in a miserable, suspended life where nothing else exists....... now that i think of it in tokiens Silmarillion they plac Morgoth the Dark lord into the void, a place outside the circles of the world where only he existed, but he escaped.... could be some literary links that way

Silmarillion. good book. there could be some links between that and the veil. to me the veil is where you may be lost forever and perhaps maybe just perhaps time stops when you enter or "fall" into the veil. hmm...i wonder.

yeah, ill have to go back and read about the veil because it is such an enigma....... though im not sure if it will play a huge role in the last installment, we heard nothing of it in HBP

yeah but maybe we will hear avout something the veil was or did a long time ago perhaps when james and lily were still alive. i would love to find out more but i'm not sure jk will talk about it again. and yeah it wasn't mentioned in the Hbp so it probably won't be brought up again. but there is still a chance!

Why was the Death chamber in the DoM anyway.... maybe they showed them what they did before they died ot of pity.... and to know if what they were doing interested people

perhaps the death chamber is in the department of mysteries because it is a mystery. we don't know a lot about the death chamber except that it is a death chamber where people probably die. am i wrong dumbledore...i don't know.hmm...

I think that the people behind the veil will come back and help harry in the 7th book almost like voldemorts inferi but acting of there own accord

but who knows how long other people have been behind or have died or are lost behind the veil. i don't see them ever coming back but there is a slight possibility i guess. and are all the people that are "in" the veil good or evil and if they were to somehow come back or out would they help harry. i am not sure the veil is something as a doorway or something where you go in and then you can come back or out later. no i think once you "enter" the veil i think you stay and are dead or lost forever.

if sirius walks out of the Veil with an army of Dead People than that would be awfuly close to the Lord of the Rings... but if that means that Dumbledore comes back like Gandalf to fulfill his task then so be it

I don't think JK would pull a tolkien on us. Nor do I think we will find out the veil's purpose, even the people who work in the DOM don't know what it does. If Sirius does come back he probaley won't be telling Harry all about the veil because he probaley doesn't understand what happended himself. Just because he went in doesn't mean he understands.

I don't think JK will copy Tolkien like that. I know that the veil is important, I mean, Harry, for sure will ask Lupin why he stopped him. What if people at the ministry did know what the Veil did, we don't have proof they don't or not. If they didn't, why would they build it in the first place. We might learn that there is no way for a person to come back from the Veil.

how do you know it is a "death chamber"... does it say that?? im just wondering because i dont remember reading that in the book.. or online anywhere official. i think only luna and harry can hear mutterings bcos.. as used.. they are the only ones who have really encounterd death... and harrys spoken to dead people before remember... as in... not ghosts.... when he duelled with voldemort and that...hmm...

Good thought about veil, evil, live but I don't think Sirious is alive. Harry however may find a way of talking to his soul. Remember the paintings at Dumbledore's office. He may find something like that.

Sirius can return from beyond the veil on Samhain (Halloween)! It is not about evil or live, it is an ancient symbolism used by Pagans the world over to describe the thin space of invisible energy that divides the world of the living from the world of the dead. Rowling simply took it one step further by making it into an actual physical fabric veil.

I absolutely love the theory about veil being an anagram for evil and live. I think it is very significant that JK calls it a "veil". I mean, isn't it initially described as a sort of curtain? That's how I envisioned it in my head - as some sheer curtains flapping in the wind. Why, then, did they start calling it a veil? Sheer curtains have nothing to do with veils, unless it's some British terminology like "loo", "prat", or "lorry"....

So if she intentially named it a "veil", I think it's entirely possible it's an anagram for both evil and live. After all, Voldemort's new name is an anagram of his old name.

I DON'T THINK THE VEIL HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY IT'S SPELLED.

This is my first post so cut me some slack! Someone may have suggested this already and if they have I apologize.

I was watching the PoA yesterday and thought where do dementors come from? How are they made? One of my friends suggested the dementors Kiss can sometimes create them.

I thought maybe the veil was used as a punishment for wizards to powerful to be placed in AZ. Dementors arent represented as being specifically alive or dead. So calling the room the Death Chamber isnt too far of a strecth. What if Sirius were to come back in Book 7 and reveal himself as a dementor. The order seems to have atleast one ally in every faction of LV's side except the Dementors.

Is it said anywhere how a dementor is made? Any comments or thoughts on my theory?

Kassie, watch the one liners please

t_sweet: thats a really good theory! I don't know how dementors are made, but when they give a person the dementors kiss, the person loses all feelings (right?), he/she is basically a shell of their former self (I think Lupin put it that way). If the dementors used to be humans, I think that would go in comparison to the Lord of the Rings with the Ring Wraiths (sp?), but of course in an entirely different scenario.

well i like the theory, but if sirius came back as a dementor wouldnt he still want to feed off good feelings? and who has better feelings then the good guys, so i still think that he would side with voldemort, because it would be in his nature.

just about the veil thing being a curtin, i just think it sounds prettier, that's why JKR used it, not becuase of the anagram thing, i think that's looking too far into it.
I think, the reason it's in the death room is a coincidence. i think that the veil is a thing that may be older than the Department of Mystries, like, the age of Hogworts, or something? so it was immovabe and they don't understnad it, the way that not eveything about horcruxes is known?
t_sweet, i like your theory too!

i'm not sure if someones already mentioned this but i think that there might be some significance to someone being able to hear voices in that veiled archway. you would naturally think that if the archway killed people than it would just be sitting there, silently and eerie. but no; it draws humans to it. for what reason, i dont know. but i do think that there is definately some significance to it and hope to see sirius pop up in book seven!

i htink harry will go to the d of m, and may even talk with sirius, cus he could hear the voices.

Mod edit: Short posts are not permitted, please elaborate in future.
~TriadOfDarkness

I don't think Sirius would come back as a dementor... 'dementoids' are evil, and Sirius isn't. When Sirius went behind the Veil, JKR was only using it to symbolize life/death... In HP, JKR doesn't have people come back from the dead; because death is one of the themes in her books... In all, I don't think it could really fit with the story if Sirius suddenly came back as a dementor; people come back as ghosts instead, or go on into the unknown and don't come back, just like Nearly Headless Nick said. Dementors feed off hapiness, not life. And even if he did come back, how would Harry know it was Sirius?

yeah, v.true, remember when harry saw his parents spirits when the priori incantatum thing happend? DD asked Harry if he had seen them and then said nothing can bring people back from the dead? Wellm that just backs up the point that Sirius won't be coming back anytime soon! :]

Unless he comes back as a ghost, which is not only very unlikely, but confirmed by JKR. Why in the world would Sirius want to come back? He was thought to be a criminal and wouldn't want to be a ghost forever, he would have gone on, just as Nick said.

I get the image becoming a ghost isnt choice. I think nearly headless nick said it happened when there was something in the persons life which was yet to be accomplished which could be any number of things
Proctecting harry from voldy like sirius told harrys parents or avenging harrys parents.

But i quote, Nick said, "No, he would have gone on..."
Sirius would have ventured into the unknown... I was under the impression that you do have a choice.

Yes Poodle Patronus you are right, there is a choice in the matter of becoming a ghost or not.



So that settles it, wizards choose to remain behind as a ghost or not, and seeing as Sirius was brave and unsettled he would not want to walk his forgotten paths for eternity, he would go crazy.

~Albus

very true i looked for that passage but couldn't find it before i wrote my last post. I would also add that if he had come back as a ghost he already has had a year to do it and the fact he has not yet shown up as a ghost convinces me he won't at all.

I don't if this idea has been posted yet since I didn't read all the 27 pages of comments even if I read some of them. If this has alread been posted, tell me
I think that behind the Veil, there is nothing but souls. Souls like the Dementors are eating... Somewhere in an Harry Potter book I remember reading that the Dementors reproduced very fast, what if everytime someone evil dies it creates a dementor... To go back with the Evil-Live Idea could it be : " Be Evil or Live..." If your evil you go back as a Dementor.... IF not, well you stay behind the veil waiting. If this last idea isn't good. Could it be "Evil Lives here" like that this was the house of evil. When asked that IF we ever saw him again in what form Sirius would be, she said that she didn't want to be incriminated or something. Maybe it is Sirius will be back as a Dementor ?

PS :Can someone tell me where is the thing that the dementors are reproducing very fast ?
PPS : If it is not by Death that Dementors are created, how it is ? I don't really imagine female or male dementors... nor I imagine them having sexual relations....

I think the torured souls who choose not to become a ghost are placed behind the veil. This way, they are somewhat connected to the real world and still dead. JKR said that we would be seeing Sirius again. She didn't specify what form but I think the Veil has a lot to do with it. My brain hurts.

-keelyn-

I can't give any credence to the anagram theory - a veil is just a veil. Curtain implies something heavier, more substantial; veil gives a whispy, death-related anaology.

I believe the arch is simply a gateway between life and death, a point where two worlds meet. The living can hear the dead talk through it, and probably vice versa. However, as Dumbledore has repeatedly said, there is no cure for death so the street is one-way only. JKR has also made it clear that:

1. The arch predates the Ministry of Magic
2. The chamber is used for study; not for execution

I don't see Sirius coming back, though I suspect the Death Room may well make another appearance.

here is something to think about (this is a completely different thought from the anagram theory). Serius was not killed. First of all, Lestrange hit him with a stunner "jet of red light" and secondly, Serius completely dissappeared. It was as if he was transported somewhere. Personally I don't think he is coming back, but I don't think he "died"


p.s.
I didn't want to spend the time to read all 5 million responses, so if I stole anyone's idea it was not intentional.

he fell behind the Veil so he's dead, and that's the end of that story. I think that Sirius will become important through the power of Love. In his heart (Or whatever the center of emotion is) Harry will see Sirius, and maybe his parents or maybe even Cedric. It's kind of a cliché though "Loved ones are only lost if we forget about them" but who knows...

Hmm Paul I think you might be right about Harry defeating Voldemort through his power of love by visioning loved ones he has lost. I do not agree with you that Sirius' story is closed due to mere fact that he fell behind such a enigmatic Veil. If Umbridge were to have never come back from the Forbidden Forest when she was carted off by the Centaurs, would you assume she was dead. Many would think it is most likely but with no body there is no proof... so until we get a proper look at this Veil, then we all are in the dark

~Albus

The veil could be a place where the people who haven't chosen to become ghosts, but are still troubled go there. I believe that Sirius wouldn't become a ghost, but Harry will communicate with Srius through the veil.

keelyn

This is such a great thread. I have so much to share.

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ok. Is it just me or does anyone else feel like its hard to accept that Sirius is dead? I mean, yeah, he fell through the veil and everyone says that he's dead and will never come back. But I just don't understand how someone can DIE by falling behind something like that.

If anyone had any comments to this please send me an owl or share your thoughts in this thread.