I was reading the last few chapters of OotP and there was a line that caught my attention. I completely missed the first time around. When Harry is talking to Sir Nicholas about Sirius returning as a ghost. At the bottom of page 861 Nick was talking about being afraid of death and he then states "I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, For I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the department of Mysteries-"

Then the line with Luna on page 863 where she's posting the sign to find all of her stolen things. Harry asks her if she's ever seen anyone die and she said her Mum. Then she says, "But I've still got Dad . And anyways it's not as though I'll never see Mum again is it?"
"Er-isn't it?" said Harry uncertianly.
She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil didn't you?"
"You mean..."
"In that room with the archway. They were lurking just out of sight, that's all. You heard them."

I wonder if the veil is where learned wizards study the matter of death. Is it possible that they are trying to create a portal for people to come back from death? Maybe it's only for people who died suddenly and not for people who lived to a ripe old age. This opens up a question for me. What about Harry's parents then? Could they have been talking behind the veil as well?

This veil DEFINATELY has a signifigance. This was proved by Harry on page 773.

"He had the strangest feeling that there was someone standing right behind the veil on the other side of the archway."

And another part on page 774:

"He had just heard something. There were faint whispering, mumering noises coming from the other side of the veil."

Only HARRY and LUNA could hear these voices. Only HARRY and LUNA could see the thestrals. This could be the archway between life and death. But this could also be the gateway to the world of the dead. Maybe you can only hear the voices if you have seen someone die?

Here is another reason I think that the veil is signifigant. On page 863, Harry and Luna were talking.

"I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?"
"Er-- Isn't it?" Said Harry uncertainly.
She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?"
"You mean..."
"In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them."

That's all Harry and Luna talk about on that subject. And I'm SURE JK Rowling didn't just put this there as a coincidence. This HAS to mean something. Not everything Luna says is rubbish.

Even JK said something like this on her website. There is a question in the FAQ, "About the Books", there is a question "Why did Harry have to forget the mirror he had been given by Sirius?" JK said that she couldn't answer this, as this is revelant to books in six and seven.

I hope I have convinced you too, like myself, that the veil is definately important in future books.

Department of mysteries must be studying the phenomenon of death. They may have constructed the Veil more as a research tool, rather than punishment facility (or it wouldn't be in the dept of mysteries, it would be in justice). Obviously "Philosopher's Stone" has already defied death, but they still do not know how it works.

The veil must play an important part. Sirius need not have gone through it otherwise. He could just have been killed. But this is too tantalizing. Too simple a way to die. In an instant, he is gone, vanished with no remains left to grieve upon. The viel will feature in future books.
-- My opinion ofcourse

I do not think that this veil is to study the matter betweeen life and death. JK said in the book that this archway was old and cracking, and it seemed strange on how it could still stand. I think this has been here for a long time now. A very dangerous piece of dark magic.

I have a feeling there will be more topics of the Veil in later books. because it's not something one can forget. Because it's this unknown object, that Unspeakables are probably still studying, and it's so mysterious. There may be more of that veil later... who knows... ohhhh...

I probably repeated someone's opinion, because I'm too lazy to read other comments...

Okay, we've all figured out that JKR tends to use alot of legends/myths in her stories. Not always, but she has studied the topic so this is my theory about the veil. There is a legend, that there is a VEIL between the living and the DEAD And on Halloween night, the veil between the worlds (living world and dead world) are thinnist, which means BOTH worlds can cross over. Now, in the Harry Potter books, something has ALWAYS happened on Hallaween, although it hasn't been that much of a focus, think about it book 1 - Hermione gets trapped with the troll Book 2 - i can't exactly remember, but I think it was Nearly Headless Nicks death day party? Book 3 - Didn't Sirius sneak into the boys dormitries? I can't remember every detail, BUT SOMETHING HAS ALWAYS HAPPENED. I read on some sights that it's probable that Harry was concieved on Hallaween night, what a perfect way to make Hallaween a bigger plot in the story line, by incorporating a myth that's been around for centuries! Harry and Luna could see people and hear voices when they were near it, it's probable they were seeing the dead, they've both seen death happen, Ginny was DRAWN to it, she's been close to death (CoS) hm... I think in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, that Hallaween night will be BIGGER than EVER before
What are your thoughts?

I'm not sure about the Halloween night thing, although, now you mention it, you do have a point. About the veil though, I've been saying for ages that there is definately something significant about it. There are quite a few hints in the book that lead me to believe that it somehow a link between life and death, doesn't Nick mention something about the Ministry studying death? I think Fire-and-Ice mentioned the quote I mean. Sirius' passing through it has to be significant - maybe, because he was alive when he went through it and we don't really know what curse he was hit with, he'll be able to communicate with Harry about what lies beyond the veil. I think the concept of death is really important - after all, isn't death what Voldemort fears the most? If you look at the bit in OoTP where Voldy (sorry JKR) possesses Harry, he left harry's body when Harry had the thought that he didn't mind dying anymore because then he'd be close to Sirius. Dumbledore seemed to think that Voldy couldn't stay in Harry's body at that time because of his love for Sirius and his grief at losing him, but maybe it was the lack of fear of death? Bravery and courage are concepts that Voldemort wouldn't understand - after all, he was in Slytherin, wasn't he?

Didn't Harry's parents die on Halloween night as well? And, I ahree that the veil may be used to study death. I don't think you can come back from behind it though. Maybe it's sort of that thing where people have NDE's and they see life beyond death but come back, but the veil is like a physical manifestation? Anyway, I had another point too but I have a bad memory...


And hey that thought about Harry's lack of fear (of death) is great DS!

Like I said: Sirius fell through it....not that he died..and the voices..if behind the Veil was death then there cannot be a voice there...unles it's Death himself.

I guess there would be voices there though, if there was life after death, wouldn't there? Beyond becoming a ghost, I mean, which Nick said is something that happens to you if you haven't accepted death before you die. I really don't know, and it's making my head ache just thinking about it!! There have been so many good ideas posted about the significance of the veil...

I suppose though that it must be some kind of inter-dimensional thing because you could see right the way around the archway...Everyone in the book seems so sure that Sirius is gone for good...there's nothing that can be as certain like that as death, is there?

WOW!!! I love these theories! Unfortunately, I don't have any theories (evryone has taken them all, lol). I just really wanted to compliment everyone on their cleverness!

Alright, this is waht I have to say about the veil...Okay, firstly, I agree with the others on how DD is not right about everything. He may know a lot of stuff, and most of the time he is right on everything, but maybe he means a different kind of dead...
Falling behind that veil doesn't certainly mean you're dead, but maybe...as good as dead? Think about it, it's just a place you fall into...a place of darkness where all you do is dwell in it as a spirit. You cannot see or do anything, so saying that Sirius (or whoever falls behind it) is dead is wrong yet at the same time right, because falling into that veil makes you something that I'm sure is much worse than being dead. It makes you dead-yet still alive.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm not making any sense, but that's my theory on it.

[FONT=Geneva][COLOR=blue]
Ok, this is my first post, so go easy on me. First I want to tell everyone you have great ideas (I did, but they seem to all be taken) and you all are a very thoughtful bunch. Ok, my theory is that since it takes time for a death to sink in enough so you can see the thestrals and (according to Hagrid) are very important creatures maybe they'll play a major part in one of the upcoming books, like maybe transporting Harry through the veil. I think there may be a reason that JK put the thestrals in the books besides the fact that they helped get to the MoM because there are other ways you could get there. I think that thestrals will provide a safe way for Harry to contact Sirius and maybe get helped for the coming war...just an idea, I'd love to hear what you think.luckyducky_2008@hotmail.com

Hi there!! **waves** Welcome!! Hope you enjoy it here!! (BTW, I'm pretty fond of little Malfoy myself!)

Good theory...Thestrals are connected to the concept of death after all, so maybe they are the only things that can cross the veil and come back. Not just for Sirius' sake, but because the veil has some larger purpose that we don't know about yet. Clearly wizards can't pass through and come back, but just maybe there are things that can?

Mmm.....

@ DracoIsMyKing: Very good theory, I would probably have to agree with that 100%. And for the rest of you too those theories are awesome.

Yeah, great theories. Thestrals will definately be important.

And even though I've never been to this thread before, Welcome!

yeah those are good theories. what are thestrals exactly? why can you only see them if you've seen someone die? are they like....horse ghosts or something. i think it's defintely important that she introduced them in the same book as the veil.

Hmm....The thestral is just defined as a winged horse with the power of invisibilty and considered an ill omen in FBawtft,. It's there along with the Abraxan and Aethonan and Granian... I think that idea about the thestral being able to cross the veil and come back is awesome!! i like that one a lot. Maybe they originally came from the place the veil leads to as well? Or not....

Ok, someone before said there's a legend where there is a veil between life and death and on halloween it's thinnest. they also said something important happens on halloween(sorry, im too lazy to look up who it was:)) So, on with the point. When everyone is in the room with the veil (cant remember the name) no one ever actually looks through the veil because, well what would you expect to see except the other side of the room? so maybe, on halloween night, if the veil is thinnest then, harry could just pull back the veil and look in? i highly doubt if he could get people out, but maybe he could talk to sirius or someone else who could help him like his parents? just a thought...

Oooh maybe! Good thinking!

I agree with all of you... can't decide which...

I think that in the 6th book harry will find a way to bring Sirius back, since harry has powers which voldermort doesnt have and it has soemthing to do with the veil. surely enough you would think that Sirius would become a ghost since he has unfinished buisiness with harry because voldermort is still alive. but like nearly headless nick said that you have to be sared of not wanting to die btu sirius was not a weak man so maybe he could be rejected somehow or find someway out maybe until he has seen that harry has defeated voldermort. btu then again maybe harry will die in the end along with voldermort. oh well it was just a thought.

I think that in the 6th book harry will find a way to bring Sirius back, since harry has powers which voldermort doesnt have and it has soemthing to do with the veil. surely enough you would think that Sirius would become a ghost since he has unfinished buisiness with harry because voldermort is still alive. but like nearly headless nick said that you have to be sared of not wanting to die btu sirius was not a weak man so maybe he could be rejected somehow or find someway out maybe until he has seen that harry has defeated voldermort. btu then again maybe harry will die in the end along with voldermort. oh well it was just a thought.i also think that dumbledore doesnt know everythign to do with magic, he knows a hell of alot but maybe when it comes to the dark arts and evil he doesn't know everything. like was said there are alotof powers in the department of mysteries that voldermort doesnt know or have and so maybe dumbledore doesnt know all.

does anyone have any idea on hwo to become a dementor and im totaally for the idea of harry going through the veil on the thestrals, not sure if they would be able to get sirius out but maybe if harry went with the thestrals he migth be able to get sirius out of there because he has some pwers which have something to do with the veil or watever. i dunno im sad that sirius is 'dead' and so im hoping that maybe in someway he'll be able to come back. wat do you guys think? its my first time in reading all of the harry potter books so ive probably missed everything out but anyway.

Woa! You wrote loads for a newbie!
Good question: What are Dementors/How do you become one.
I have looked through 'Fantastic Beastes & Where To Find Them' but Dementors are not listed.....
So did Dementors used to be people who were cursed that way?
You know like those Black Rider things in LOTR's. They used to be kings or something then they were turned that way....hmm probably not
What the heck are Dementors!?



Just saying I have read the ALL the books so I know what they 'are' but not how they became what they are (if you know what I mean).

Also - I AM NOT A LOTR's FAN! MY FRIEND MADE ME WATCH THE MOVIES, BUT I COULDNT HELP BUT NOTICE THERE COULD BE A LINK. BUT I AM NOT, HAVE NEVER BEEN + WILL NEVER BE A LOTR's FAN!!!!!!
Thank you!

Oh deary, deary me....oh boy are you ever gonna get a roastin' when all the LOTR fans that I know are on here read what you've just said!!!

Although the similarities between LOTR ringwraiths and Dementors can't be denied....**cough**rip off**cough**

But that's not the point....the veil and the dementors....okay then...

I don't know how you become a dementor, I don't think it's ever been said, although I'd love to find out. Unless they're immortal, then they'd have to procreate at some time to keep the species going wouldn't they? Urrggghh...what a thought....

If they're not listed in Fantastic Beasts, I don't know...maybe they're like embodiments of death, kind of like the Grim Reaper, only personified, you know? Or maybe they're exorcised spirits or ghosts that have, for some reason, been changed into what they are?

Mmm....

Just to keep on topic, ( ), I don't think that the Dementors can pass through the veil. If they could, they'd glide right through, grab our dearly departed Sirius, yank him back and perform the kiss, wouldn't they? So let's just hope they can't....

Yeah, I've never thought about how a Dementor becomes a Dementor until I read this thread. It's a lot to think about, and I really do hope that Jo explains everything. Hmmmm, it IS a lot to think about.

There are so many theories flying around, and I'll read one, and think it has to be right. And then I'll read another, and think that one's right. Until, I'm back where I started and I have no clue about the veil. And about the spelling, maybe it does mean something. Jo is big with anagrams....so we don't know whether or not it means something. She could have called the veil anything else. But it's kind of interesting that it's an anagram for evil and live. Erm, even MORE to think about.

I try and try not to worry myself about all these theories, but then I read more of them and I can't help but wonder. There's so many unanswered questions that I'm dying to have answered.

The thestral idea is a good idea, but how big exactly is this veil? It never said. In order for Sirius to fall for it, it must be sort of large, but a thestral must be large too in order to pull the school carriages. That's my only concern is whether or not the thestrals would fit through the veil or not. I wonder if the Dementors are cursed souls? In SS, what did Firenze mean by anyone who drinks the blood of the unicorn will be cursed for life? Maybe, that is how one becomes a Dementor. It's kind of far-fetched, but who knows? With Jo anything's possible....

yay i like the sound of that...

Everything is in it's place for a reason, even the littlest seemingly insignificant of things, so yeah, I'm pretty sure JKR has yet to reveal to us the significance/purpose behind the whole Sirius-Stubby mix-up.

As I've mentioned before in the other Veil thread, I strongly believe that this is not the last we've heard from Sirius. Don't get me wrong, he's definitely dead...I very much doubt JKR is gonna pull a Gandalf.

My theory is that Harry will learn of a way to communicate to Sirius in someway in the next book. From OotP, my understanding of the Veil was that it was some sort of portal/gateway to death. The most likely medium for contact would be the mirror of course, but as a lot of you have pointed out, it's broken. Well maybe it can be fixed (Reparo charm?), and if it can't, then JKR will reveal to us something new for Harry to use as a means to get to Sirius.

Well that's just what *I* reckon, anyway. I could very well have the totally wrong end of the stick, but I guess I just really wanna see Harry get some closure you know? After all, Sirius was the closest to family Harry had. *sob*

Nevermind...now Lupin can be the honorary godfather!!

Would it be possible for Harry to, like, throw the two-way mirror or some other kind of communication device through the veil, and Sirius catch it?

There's also the possibility that Sirius is not completely gone! Pay attention to what Luna said about 'and it's not as if I'll never see her again.'

About the whole Dementor Black Rider conection, I just read a JK Rowling interview or something (I can't really remember what...) but in it she said that Dementors were inspired by a nightmare that she had when she was a little girl, or something along those lines.

yes thorium in case u missed this line in the book it was written that only those who have seen people DIE can hear the voices behind the veil.

dragon magic ur right and i hope sirius coms back but the problem with luna is that she says all **** so we dunno whether to believe her or not.

ok i have a really stupid theory.it can be that stubby boardman is really another muggle who looks just like sirius and voldermort or someone gets to know this.then maybe they'll try to kill harry by capturing this stubby person and making harry believe that he is reallly sirius.and we know that harry really loves his godfather and can do almost anything to get him back... OMG!!

MOD EDIT : First off, please don't double post and CERTAINLY don't triple post. If you want to say something else, then click 'EDIT' on the top right of your original post. Secondly, watch your language. I've edited your second post. And thirdly, this last post is off topic. Please look for the appropriate thread or, if you can't find it, post a new one. Please check the rules before posting again.

Ok. This is my third post or so, so hi all. Before I start, most of these things I say are not my own. I just adopted them. Check out the Changleing Hypothesis (also not mine) for some more of my views. I'm not going to comment on dementors cause I know too little about creatures in general anyway. But what is the veil? What if it was where all souls of people who die go? I mean the ones that "accept" death. That might explain why they were attracted to it. Most all of them at the DoM had near death experiences. But about the whispering, where's Nevile in all this? He can see thestrals too but nothing is mentioned of him in the veil passage. That might be a killing aspect of the whispering theories but it might not. And what are ghosts? In the Changeling Hypothesis you can gather that ghosts are people who have "imprinted" themselves to the physical world. Fear of death or something similiar to unfinished business might do that. If Sirius ever would've known he would die, he wanted to die in battle, protecting Harry and those he loved. Didn't Hagrid or someone mention that? So that rules out Sirius coming back as a ghost. Other than that, just nice oppinions and theories on the thestrals and dementors. I might look for that when book 6 comes out.

Do you have a link where we can read this Changeling Hypothesis? A website will do if you don't have the actual link....

(A very warm welcome to the forums, BTW!!!!)

An editorial talking about the changling hypothesis or whatever can be found here and here. Although I think the entire changling thing is really confusing and makes my head hurt.
I'm not saying that I think Sirius isn't dead but I do think that he will come back in some way shape or form (I would love to have him come back as his teenage self to fight along with Harry in the final battle) but I think that after we know all of the things we need to know from Sirius he will be dead. I hate that he is gone but I don't think that he will completely return (or at least return for the rest of his lifetime and his a wizard so he still has quite a few years left to live)

i've never noticed that veil could also be spelled as evil or live... really good observation, i still have thoughts that sirius isn't dead... i mean he's probably dead, but he can still communicate with harry and other people in the wizarding world, he could be like the messenger between the outside world and the world inside the veil... i don't think dumbledore knows EVERYTHING... he knows A LOT...but there's things he doesn't know, i mean he didn't know moody was crouch's son until the end

Thanks, taks. Wow, that made for some pretty heavy reading...now my head aches too....

Complicated theory....not sure how much of it rings true though....I'm not sure about this Voldemort is Harry/Harry is Voldemort business, although it is something that I once considered, but I think that JKR herself has pretty much knocked that idea on the head by telling fans on her website that she thinks they may have been watching too much Star Wars..

Anywho, marginally off topic, so.....

Interesting parallel with the Veil though. Mmm.....I guess a lot of it depends on what the veil actually is. I still say, as I've said many times before, that no one truly knows what it is - not DD, not Lupin, not Hagrid or anyone else who commented on Sirius' 'death'. If they knew what it was, then they wouldn't need to study it in the DoM would they? As for the connection to the Changeling hypothesis - Sirius never did anything to enable him to survive death in the way that Voldemort did, but on the other hand, with the growing credence that JKR is portraying 'The Quibbler', I find myself wondering just how much truth there was to the 'Stubby Boardman' thing...particularly in light of the opening paragraph of that 'Changeling Hypothesis' that suggests that one of the major themes in the books (the denouements in particular) is mistaken identity.

I read somewhere a theory that DD was an Unspeakable which was how he knew so much about prophecies (which even Voldie didn't know about for a while there) an such.
As for the veil>evil>live I knew that but I didn't give it much thought. I figured something was up with the veil but it didn't nesseceraily mean that it had to do with evil/live but becase it just wouldn't work if JK made Sirius fall through the mysterious popcorn popper or the strange bathroom door. If you know what I mean.

good job you guys!! these are all great theories!! opens up perspective for non-thinkers like me!! lol.

dumbledore, an unspeakable? i would have never thought of that. but i think that it could be very possible.

Hi guys, what I find very interesting about the veil is that Harry Potter is not the first place I have read about a veil like this.
I don't know how many of you know any of Jane Austen's work but when she was writing Northanger Abbey in the 1790s she was writing in the gothic genre. Here's a quote:

"[Emily] hastily entered the chamber, and went towards the picture, which appeared to be enclosed in a frame of uncommon size, that hung in a dark part of the room. She paused again, and then, with a timid hand, lifted the veil; but instantly let it fall - percieving that what had concealed it was no picture, and, before she could leave the chamber, she dropped senseless to the floor."

Now to me this seems very familier, it's not the same as HP but no one can doubt that the two ideas of what the veil do are similar.
What do you think?

That's interesting, Cherub. I know that Rowling likes Jane Austen, but I haven't read many of her books and am completely unfamiliar with Northanger Abby. Could you elaborate about the veil? so what IS behind it?

I was just wondering, and forgive me if im wrong here. Neville was with them in the DoM right? And Neville was able to see the Thestrals (sp?)... so if those two statements are correct then Neville should be able to hear the voices behind the veil. But why would he not be mentioned as having heard them? I may be completly wrong, and i dont have my book with me to reread that portion of it. But in reading this thread i noticed that no one mention Neville. But the person Neville saw die was his grandfather. Someone older, whose lived a full life. Luna saw her Mom, who hadnt lived a very full life, Luna was 9. Harry saw Cedric, and he didnt have a chance to live a full life. Maybe thats something? I can be really off base here. Let me know

First of all, welcome to the forums, imafan2!

I didn't really remember the details of this scene very clearly, so I'm looking at my "Order of the Phoenix" book right now. This is an excerpt from the scene in which Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, and Luna see the veil for the first time (American hardcover pg. 774):

i think most people have thought of that at times, i know i have and still believe its enchanted

GO to my post in Book 6 and 7 dicusion titled: Dementors. the veil is called the Dark veil of oblivion. Read that before you respond.