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Pendulum
Hey guys I was just wondering why did Voldemort use such a long-winded plan in Goblet of Fire to capture Harry? At the time no-one knew he was returning to power so no-one is on their guard really. Why didn't he just ask Wormtail to apparate, grab Harry then use Side-Along apparation to get back to Voldemort? It could have happened in an instant. No-one could have really stopped it - apparation hardly takes any time at all. Even if that failed - why not just get Barty Crouch Jr. (in his Moody disguise of course) to just have a word with Harry after a lesson or something, stun him, put on a dissilusionment charm then leg it out of the school and apparate back to Voldemort? Seems like such a long-winded plan for something that didn't really require that much organisation. Wormtail could have easily gone to the Quidditch World Cup (disguised using polyjuice potion as Bertha Jorkins, who they had captured), then snatch Harry using Side-Along apparation? Seems like such a long winded thing to enter his name in the tournament and get him to win everything and kidnap Moody etc etc when they could have got him so much easier? Obviously it would have made the book a lot more boring, but still. Be intersted to hear your thoughts.
lancelot243
Well, they needed to make sure their plan would work. If they just grabbed harry and left with him everyone would be looking for him and they would just have to hope that no one found them in time.

And dont forget, their plan worked perfectly in goblet of fire. The only thing that didnt work was that harry beat voldemort in their duel. If voldemort would have just killed harry while he was tied to the grave then no one would have known he was back. So yes they could have just done a grab and dash, but he wanted to be more thorough and fill in all the gaps. And his plan worked perfectly, he just underestimated harry once again.
Pendulum
QUOTE
Well, they needed to make sure their plan would work. If they just grabbed harry and left with him everyone would be looking for him and they would just have to hope that no one found them in time.


I doubt they would have found him. Voldemort says the potion he uses is of his own design, so no-one would know they needed to be at the Riddles old house. They would probably have gone to Albania, and by the time they realised he wasn't there, it would have been too late.

QUOTE
And dont forget, their plan worked perfectly in goblet of fire.


I agree. The point I was making was that there was so much potential for things to go wrong.

QUOTE
The only thing that didnt work was that harry beat voldemort in their duel.


Don't forget how Harry escaped in the first place - it was because of the Tri-Wizard Cup being a portkey. If they had just grabbed him and apparated he would have had no means of escaped - he really would have been doomed.



HPnerd_0512
I suppose the idea of snatching Harry from right under Dumbledore's nose would have tickled Voldemort. I mean, Dumbledore is the only wizard he ever feared, and so to be able to outwit him like that would be quite an achievement.

Also, Voldemort mentions to Wormtail quite early on (I can't remember where, and I haven't got OotP in front of me) that it would be too risky to kidnap Harry during the World Cup as there were so many Ministry witches and wizards about. I think this plan was designed to achieve a number of goals.

First and foremost was to abduct Harry. We are told that he cannot be harmed while living in the home of his mother's family, so Privet Drive was out of the question. I have mentioned above that it would be virtually impossible to take him while he was at the World Cup. Next, Voldemort has no knowledge of Harry's friends, so he could not have known that Harry spent the remainder of the Summer outside of his mother's protection, so in no way would it occur to Voldemort to travel to Ottery St Catchpole and take him from the Burrow. That leaves Hogwarts. When you look at it this way, the only place Voldemort could take him from was Hogwarts.

The second goal was to be reborn, albeit in a mortal body, rather than the "immortal" one Voldemort planned for after the deaths of James and Lily. For this he needed the blood of a foe. Wormtail rightly points out that any witch or wizard who was against him would do. However, the protection from Lily which runs in Harry's veins would also run in Voldemorts, if Harry's blood was used. Therefore Harry was an integral part of Voldemort's regeneration.

In essence, the plan was very simple: get Harry to touch the Triwizard Cup, which would then transport him to the site of Voldemort's rebirth. It was arranging everything around this point that was difficult.

The third goal was to infiltrate Hogwarts, with Harry's abduction being a welcome consequence. To sneak a Death Eater into the one place people believed Voldemort could not enter, let alone a Death Eater who won the trust of all the staff, would be the ultimate insult to Dumbledore. It would mean to the magical community at large that nowhere was safe.

Wormtail could not be the impostor. We must remember that he contributed (in howevr small a way) to the creation of the Marauders Map, and after the events in PoA he knew that Harry was in possession of it, and that he knew how to read it. Of course, the fact that he conveniently forgot to mention the existence of such a map to Barty Crouch, Jr. is a moot point. Wormtail could not pretend to be Moody for a full year as he possessed neither the courage nor the guile. Furthermore, the victim had to be Mad-Eye. He was starting his knew job at Hogwarts, and was only staying for a year, as much time as Voldemort needed. He was a close friend of Dumbledore, trusted and respected, and as such his deception would just add insult to injury once Dumbledore discovered the truth.

Here, I think, we can assume that Voldmeort was under the impression that Dumbledore would uncover the plot sooner or later, but hopefully not until it had succeeded. Can we then argue that Voldemort was knowingly sending Barty Crouch, Jr. to his death, or at least, back to a life sentence in Azkaban? I think we can safely say he knew, and did it anyway.

In Voldemort's eyes, the Crouch family was a loose end. Crouch Sr. was responsible for sending many of his loyal followers to Azkaban, and Crouch Jr. we know was very young when he took part in the torture of the Longbottoms. It is safe to assume that he was not a member of Voldemort's "inner circle", whereas the Lestranges clearly were. As such, he was probably not valued as highly, and was therefore disposable. He became a willing pawn in Voldemort's scheme to be reborn, and could be sacrificed in order to carry out Voldemort's long term aims.

Looking at it from this angle, was there any way things could have been done differently? Probably not. This plan achieved all three outcomes, with the only collateral damage being
a soulless Crouch and a still-living Harry. From Voldemort's point of view, that's almost perfect.
Pendulum
QUOTE
I suppose the idea of snatching Harry from right under Dumbledore's nose would have tickled Voldemort. I mean, Dumbledore is the only wizard he ever feared, and so to be able to outwit him like that would be quite an achievement.


Still, if he had just got Barty Crouch Jr. (in Moody form) to ask Harry for a word then stun him and run out of the castle under a disillusionment charm then it would have still been snatching him from under Dumbledore's nose, but it would have also been snatching him from inside the Hogwarts castle, where he appears to be untouchable. I imagine this would have amused Voldemort even more.

QUOTE
Also, Voldemort mentions to Wormtail quite early on (I can't remember where, and I haven't got OotP in front of me) that it would be too risky to kidnap Harry during the World Cup as there were so many Ministry witches and wizards about. I think this plan was designed to achieve a number of goals.


Yes I did remember this when I posted this, but still, apparating then disapparating takes a second. It's not like Wormtail would have had to battle his way through a line of Ministry wizards to get to Harry - its just a quick appear and disappear. Even if they didn't want to use that plan they could have still, like I said, get Barty Crouch Jr. to stun Harry after a lesson.

QUOTE
First and foremost was to abduct Harry. We are told that he cannot be harmed while living in the home of his mother's family, so Privet Drive was out of the question. I have mentioned above that it would be virtually impossible to take him while he was at the World Cup. Next, Voldemort has no knowledge of Harry's friends, so he could not have known that Harry spent the remainder of the Summer outside of his mother's protection, so in no way would it occur to Voldemort to travel to Ottery St Catchpole and take him from the Burrow. That leaves Hogwarts. When you look at it this way, the only place Voldemort could take him from was Hogwarts.


I think there was a small window of opportunity at the Quidditch World Cup if Wormtail had been using a disguise. After all, no-one knew Voldemort was returning to power so no-one would have really suspected an apparently harmless wizard/witch to want to snatch Harry. Wormtail could have disguised himself with a Bertha Jorkins polyjuice potion or a Disillusionment charm. It would have been easy enough. And even if, like I said, Voldemort didn't want to take that risk he could have got Moody to stun Harry after a lesson then either fly back to him using a broom or, if they wanted to do it less suspiciously, they could have used the fireplace in Moody's office to travel using Floo Powder to Voldemort. Seems so much easier.

QUOTE
The second goal was to be reborn, albeit in a mortal body, rather than the "immortal" one Voldemort planned for after the deaths of James and Lily. For this he needed the blood of a foe. Wormtail rightly points out that any witch or wizard who was against him would do. However, the protection from Lily which runs in Harry's veins would also run in Voldemorts, if Harry's blood was used. Therefore Harry was an integral part of Voldemort's regeneration.


A fair point, but he still could have used Harry if they had used one of the theorys i just talked about.

QUOTE
In essence, the plan was very simple: get Harry to touch the Triwizard Cup, which would then transport him to the site of Voldemort's rebirth. It was arranging everything around this point that was difficult.


Exactly. It was difficult. The portkey doesn't have to be the Tri-Wizard Cup - he could have made a text book a portkey then given it to Harry after the lesson. That would have been so much easier don't you agree?

QUOTE
The third goal was to infiltrate Hogwarts, with Harry's abduction being a welcome consequence. To sneak a Death Eater into the one place people believed Voldemort could not enter, let alone a Death Eater who won the trust of all the staff, would be the ultimate insult to Dumbledore. It would mean to the magical community at large that nowhere was safe.


Using one of the theories I just talked about would have still fulfilled your three goals, but just made things so much simpler for Voldemort.

QUOTE
Wormtail could not be the impostor. We must remember that he contributed (in howevr small a way) to the creation of the Marauders Map, and after the events in PoA he knew that Harry was in possession of it, and that he knew how to read it. Of course, the fact that he conveniently forgot to mention the existence of such a map to Barty Crouch, Jr. is a moot point. Wormtail could not pretend to be Moody for a full year as he possessed neither the courage nor the guile. Furthermore, the victim had to be Mad-Eye. He was starting his knew job at Hogwarts, and was only staying for a year, as much time as Voldemort needed. He was a close friend of Dumbledore, trusted and respected, and as such his deception would just add insult to injury once Dumbledore discovered the truth.


Did I say that Wormtail had to be the imposter or the victim didn't have to be mad-eye? tongue.gif

QUOTE
Here, I think, we can assume that Voldmeort was under the impression that Dumbledore would uncover the plot sooner or later, but hopefully not until it had succeeded. Can we then argue that Voldemort was knowingly sending Barty Crouch, Jr. to his death, or at least, back to a life sentence in Azkaban? I think we can safely say he knew, and did it anyway.

In Voldemort's eyes, the Crouch family was a loose end. Crouch Sr. was responsible for sending many of his loyal followers to Azkaban, and Crouch Jr. we know was very young when he took part in the torture of the Longbottoms. It is safe to assume that he was not a member of Voldemort's "inner circle", whereas the Lestranges clearly were. As such, he was probably not valued as highly, and was therefore disposable. He became a willing pawn in Voldemort's scheme to be reborn, and could be sacrificed in order to carry out Voldemort's long term aims.


Okay, so you have made a fair point here, but just because Barty Crouch Jr. had to be disposed off didn't mean that they had to make such a long-winded plan? Sorry I don't really understand what point your trying to make here wacko.gif

QUOTE
Looking at it from this angle, was there any way things could have been done differently? Probably not. This plan achieved all three outcomes, with the only collateral damage being
a soulless Crouch and a still-living Harry. From Voldemort's point of view, that's almost perfect


Yes there was tongue.gif Like I said Wormtail could have disguised himself as Bertha Jorkins then snatched Harry at the Quidditch World Cup, or Barty Crouch Jr. could have given him a portkey after class. Portkeys can be anything Harry wouldn't have known what he was taking. Or Crouch could have stunned Harry after class and Floo Powder'd him to Voldemort. Seems simpler and gets his three aims does it not? You say it's 'almost perfect' but it's not, it's almost completely ruined. He manages to regenrate but Harry manages to tell Dumbledore about the Dark Lord's return, which is the last thing he wanted. Be interested to hear your thoughts, and I hope i have made sense and not waffled on too much laugh.gif
lancelot243
Ok, so the two theories you have that could have gone differently are 1. wormtail abduct harry from the world cup and 2. Crouch stun and take harry from hogwarts by dissilusionment charm or portkey or floo powder

Theory 1. Yes that could have worked, but i dont see how thats anymore fullproof then the plan they had. With the triwizard plan they got harry away from dumbledore almost completely alone. Do not forget that voldemort is not very trusting of others, especially wormtail. I dont think voldemort would be prepared to risk wormtail being caught. Say wormtail grabbed harry and someone notices and latches on and their plan is ruined. Its not like voldemort was ready to duel, it would have been wormtail vs harry and whoever else and they would both be ready to fight; they wouldnt have two kids who think they are just entering another phase of a tournament. Also, what if wormtail is captured before getting harry? Wormtail is not a loyal man and he is easily persuaded, its easy for voldemort to assume that wormtail would tell everything to avoid more trouble. Also, Sirius would be cleared; which isnt a huge deal to voldemort, but its one more order member who can help dumbledore out more now that hes not just hiding

Theory 2. VOldemort has no idea how closely dumbledore will be watching Harry at school, and, frankly, neither do we. We know that dumbledore is having harry tailed at school in the 5th book, how do we know hes not being tailed in the 4th book. In fact, id be willing to bet harry does have someone on his tail, and im sure voldemort is assuming harry is being followed. So if moody called harry into his office there is a chaance someone would be invisible right outside the door who would hear what happened and follow them if they used floo powder or portkey, and there would definitely be someone there if moody(crouch) tried to smuggle harry out of the school.

So, yes both of the plans you came up with could work and are much shorter, but they arent anymore fullproof than the triwizard plan; which is by no means a fullproof plan, but it covered alot more holes than the 2 mentioned above.
Pendulum
Okay I admit that theory one is a bit of a dud. But theory two is easy enough to explain.
QUOTE
Theory 2. VOldemort has no idea how closely dumbledore will be watching Harry at school, and, frankly, neither do we. We know that dumbledore is having harry tailed at school in the 5th book, how do we know hes not being tailed in the 4th book. In fact, id be willing to bet harry does have someone on his tail, and im sure voldemort is assuming harry is being followed. So if moody called harry into his office there is a chaance someone would be invisible right outside the door who would hear what happened and follow them if they used floo powder or portkey, and there would definitely be someone there if moody(crouch) tried to smuggle harry out of the school


Don't forget at this point no-one knows Voldemort is returning. No-one is suspicious. I very much doubt Harry is being tailed in the fourth book in his lessons, it just seems so unlucky. And remember, there's not a way of following someone through a fireplace. You'd have to predict where they had gone even if someone did hear what was going on.
lancelot243
QUOTE
Don't forget at this point no-one knows Voldemort is returning. No-one is suspicious. I very much doubt Harry is being tailed in the fourth book in his lessons, it just seems so unlucky. And remember, there's not a way of following someone through a fireplace. You'd have to predict where they had gone even if someone did hear what was going on.


Its true that no one knows hes coming back, but people are definitely suspicious. Voldemort already almost came back 3 years prior to this with the sorcerers stone. Also, remember that at this time dumbledore already has suspicions of voldemorts horcruxes. In fact Harry has already destroyed one (riddles diary), and remember all the suspicions about who put harrys name in the goblet, people were definitely suspicious. So, i think it is wrong to say no one had any suspicions about voldemort coming back. As i said earlier, i think its extremely likely that DD was having harry tailed. He has been having him tailed by Ms. Figg his entire life.

Yes, it is true no one can follow you through flu powder (as far as we know), but if someone was listening at the door they would definitely hear moody/crouch say the name of his destination before he left with harry. This plan has so many holes, and i know the triwizard plan has holes in it as well, but the difference is that if the triwizard thing fails and harry doesnt win nothing is different, people still wouldn't know voldemort was coming back. If the other plan fails. People would find out barty crouch jr was still alive and suspicions would definitely spike. Voldemort wouldn't risk all this on crouch's ability to not spill the beans when interogated. Voldemort trusts no one.
Lord Skinner
Voldemort is one of the greatest villains ever created in literature. And being such he must have an extravagant plan that takes up alot of time and effort, especially since his plan basically works. Ill shall adress your questions best i can. Wormtail couldnt collect Harry earlier due to the enchanment place around him during the summer. Plus wormtail isnt that good of a wizard, im not even sure he can apparate, if he can why didnt he apparate straight to voldemort instead of traveling as a rat.
Barty/Moody couldnt have grabbed Harry. 1 you cant apparate at Hogwarts, 2 Voldemort wouldnt risk something that obvious under Dumbledores nose. Wormtail would never have been able to get to Harry at the Cup either. The big reason is he couldnt leave Voldemorts side. voldemort needed constant feeding and looking after. Also Voldemort says himself that security would be way to tight for them to get anywhere near Harry till after the Cup. The Ministry would be on high alert.
Being practically dead and using wizards thought to be dead Voldemort could but his plan into action and have it work secretly from the shadows, and never leave a sign for Dumbledore to read and stop him.
ChannelingGinny
Here's my 2cents... Voldemort knows that if ANYTHING happens to Harry anywhere that Dumbledore will be all over the situation. Having Moody/Crouch take Harry by either floo power or outside of Hogwarts in order to apparate would alert almost immediately that Harry was missing. Ron and/or Hermione would notice he was missing and alert someone. They would also notice, in looking for Harry that Moody was missing. Even IF Voldemort succeeded in killing Harry in this way, Dumbledore would know without a shadow of a doubt that he had returned and would raise the alarm. It would be obvious to the entire wizarding world that Harry had disappeared and most logical would be LV or at least his faithful Death Eaters, and then inquiries would be launched to investigate those that were linked to LV in the past.

Having Womtail take Harry from the World Cup just isn't feasible considering the ineptitude of Wormtail, and LV knew this. Again, even IF Wormtail could have pulled off abducting Harry from the World Cup, this would again alert the entire wizarding world that Harry was gone and red flags would be raised all over the place.

I will admit that, yes, the whole tricking-the-goblet-to-get-Harry-into-the-Tri-Wizard-Tournament was very elaborate, and it did raise Dumbeldore's suspicions. But in the end, what better way to get Harry away from Hogwarts without raising an immediate alarm. Moody/Crouch did all he could to insure Harry would make it to the final task and to the Cup/Portkey. If Harry disappeared while in the maze, no-one would know for a while, since no-one could see into the maze. Everyone would think that Harry and the others were taking a long time finding the cup.

This just brought another answer to another question posed in another place... someone asked why Harry was able to take the portkey back to the maze. At this point, my guess is that it was left as a "two-way portkey" so that WHEN (according to LV's plan) Harry was killed in the graveyard he could be sent back to the maze via the portkey and everyone would think Harry had died during the 3rd task. He looked pretty beat-up, so there was a chance no one would suspect the Avada Kedavra had been used on him. All this part of LV's elaborate plan to restore himself to a body and to power. Yes, it was elaborate, and had Harry not escaped it could have been the perfect crime. Remember, the best laid plans...
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