Sigh. Recently, I have been going through standard teen mood swings so every once in a while I may get a bit mad. I try to keep this out of my posts as much as possible, but you may see a bit of it here or there. Ok, here I go. Proper English of even fifteen years ago (that's how old the books we work with in my school are) has no rules about groupings when listing three people with two ands. As a matter of fact, this would be considered improper grammar. The first and the second could be grouped together or the second and third could be grouped together, but there is no way to tell unless you are in the mind of the speaker. The only thing that editors correct when it comes to speech is spelling. An example would be an author trying to duplicate the accent found in many of the southern states. Only spelling would be corrected, but speech and punctuation would remain relatively the same.
Speech in this sort of situation would definately stay the same. Hermione is in a situation that usually causes one to panic, thereby causing one to forget certain things yet remember others. For example, when one sees something horrible, they may "forget" how to move their legs yet still remember how to call for help... or do something like that. Something as small as a listing error on Hermione's part would be quite dismissable. The possibility of Hermione grouping them in that way could be taken in the way listed above.
I believe we have now come to a stalemate on that one.
Though all deception in each book has been resolved in each corresponding book, the fact that it is a theme that runs throughout the entire series signifies that this could be applied to something that runs through the entire series. I myself have done so in my fanfic, though it has not run the entire series yet. I may even add another if my readers decide they want another one, and it will have run throughout the series even though it will only come forward at the next story. JKR is the writer. She can work with her themes as she wants.
Again, another stalemate imo, though you may add on to this if you really wish to.
As for Hermione getting hit, he has no clue how to help her at the time, no sense to see if she's even alive after the Death Eater has been taken down, he's panicing while she's down, he doesn't have the sense to take out the Death Eater right away until the baby-headed one barges in... I could go on for a good long time. Now read the passage where Ron and Ginny go down. Once again, it's just "Saving People Thing" kicking in. No attactments, no emotions, nothing.
Listen to me if you wish, ignore me if not. Let's just move onto another point that we can debate without mods coming down on us for whipping that horse again.
Full Version: The Official R/ Hr Vs H/ Hr Debate - Thread 2
I'll have to agree with Bandoth on this one. How you word your sentence, isn't exactly going to determine the results of your love life.
The whole death scene: could you include page numbers or quote it at least next time? It's a bit faster that way....
anyway, I'll do it, so we can refer to it. If you're going to look a deaths, lets take a look at some throughout the series: (starting out with the one we're debating already)
The whole death scene: could you include page numbers or quote it at least next time? It's a bit faster that way....
anyway, I'll do it, so we can refer to it. If you're going to look a deaths, lets take a look at some throughout the series: (starting out with the one we're debating already)
| QUOTE |
| "Well done, Ha-" But the DE Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand from which flew a streak of what looked like purple flame. It passed right across Hermione's chest; she gave a tiny "oh!" as though of surprise and then crumpled onto the floor where she lay motionless. "HERMIONE!" Harry fell to his knees beside her as Neville crawled rapidly toward her from under the desk, his wand held up in front of him. The DE kicked out hard at Nevilles head as he emerged....(etc, etc, etc) |
and then a little farther on:
| QUOTE |
| A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly. He had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead . . . |
ok...lets compare this to Ron's death at the beginning of the book:
| QUOTE |
| Sprawled on the dusty old carpter in a patch of moonlight, clearly dead, was Ron. All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he was falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold - Ron dead, no, it couldn't be - |
Ok, what separates Hermione's dying and makes it a lot more sadder to Harry then Ron being dead? It seems about the same level, meaning he probably cares about them about the same amount. They both hurt him pretty badly.
In CoS, when Hermione was Petrified, Harry's only reaction was:
| QUOTE |
| Harry was only half listening. He didn't seem to be able to get rid of the picture of Hermione lying on the hospital bed as though carved out of stone. |
And then, he goes back to thinking of how he's going to have to spend time with the Dursleys if the culprit isn't caught soon. However, Ron groans when he first saw her, (we can't tell whats going on in his mind) and when the news was out that the mandrakes were ready, Ron was said to be looking happier then he had in days. Harry, however, doesn't feel much of anything, and decides to see if Draco is cheering.
Not to mention, Harry is very worried about Ginny down in the chamber.
| QUOTE |
| "Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees. "Ginny - don't be dead - please don't be dead - " He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders and turned her over. Her face was white as marble and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But then she must be - "Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately shaking her. Ginny's head lolled hopelessly from side to side. |
Which sounds a lot like his reaction to Hermione dying. (the second quote). The same begging, describing how they felt, falling to their knees. I'm sure Hermione's death would've affected him more, but just thought I'd mention that. (Heck, I don't even SHIP h/g...)
and then afterwards, he worries she'll get expelled for what she did. (pg 328)
And THEN later on (pg 330) when they announce that they've given the Mandrake juice to the victims, Ron is the ONLY one who thinks about Hermione being ok.
and I don't think I even need to bother with how much Sirius' death affected Harry.
I have always thought that Harry loves Ron and Hermione equally, and at this point in the books I think he does love them, you will never see me type "Harry cares more for Ron than Hermione". But that's the big problem with me and H/HR is he does love them equally and not Hermione more. Kipsy, good to see that I'm not the only person who came from H/Hr beginnings. Muggy you said something I've thought for a while, that Dan and Emma like eachother. I know we're not suppose to talk about actors lives and stuff, I'm just pointing out what I think.
I'm sorry, but where did you get that Ron dieing quote from? I know it's probably a dream scene but I have no clue when you're talking about. I was thinking of the Ron getting attacked by brains scene in the DoM. Please, give me a chapter and general area of where that is because I've got the US version and about eighty percent of the people on here are British.
Anyway, I see those quotes and think, "Ok, he has about the same reaction to death for everyone he cares about." Then I think a bit more and see a key difference.
Hermione's "death" brings a lot more description to it.
A whine of panic.
Can't think properly.
The actual guilt and responsibility taking hold of him.
He may use the same words, but a great deal has been added onto it. The attatchment emotions are quite a bit more overwhelming when Hermione hits the floor than even seeing Ginny "dead" on the floor or Ron "dead" in that quote I know little to nothing about. In fact, Harry simply goes into denial with Ron's death and is only slightly desperate with Ginny. Those are the only attatchments I see here and unless there is more to both situations, I doubt I will be swayed in this particuliar aspect of debate.
Anyway, I see those quotes and think, "Ok, he has about the same reaction to death for everyone he cares about." Then I think a bit more and see a key difference.
Hermione's "death" brings a lot more description to it.
A whine of panic.
Can't think properly.
The actual guilt and responsibility taking hold of him.
He may use the same words, but a great deal has been added onto it. The attatchment emotions are quite a bit more overwhelming when Hermione hits the floor than even seeing Ginny "dead" on the floor or Ron "dead" in that quote I know little to nothing about. In fact, Harry simply goes into denial with Ron's death and is only slightly desperate with Ginny. Those are the only attatchments I see here and unless there is more to both situations, I doubt I will be swayed in this particuliar aspect of debate.
Bandoth, if it's okay with you, I'll skip the two stalemates.
It's maybe my oversight, I didn't get your point on Hermione correctly. Do you actually want to say that "Harry cared for Hermione more than for Ron, because of the 'Don't let her be dead' thing? I disagree with that statement. I would have accepted if we stop at the "saving-people-thing" for everyone. These are evidences that Harry didn't care for Hermione more than anyone else.
1. Guilty feeling
Harry said:
"Like you won't kill us all anyway, the moment I hand it over!" said Harry [to Antonin Dolohov}.
A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly
...
"Don’t let her be dead, don’t let her be dead, it’s my fault if she’s dead …" (OOP Ch 35)
Harry linked his panic to the threat from Antonin Dolohov and the helpless situation with him under the point of Dolohov's wand and Neville being incapacitated. And thereafter he hoped that Hermione should not be dead.
Harry said it would be his fault, because it's his insistence to go, over Hermione's objection, that may cause Hermione to die prematurely. Hermione would die because of his error in judgement. At this point he didn't know about the others yet.
For sure he felt relieved that Hermione is not dead yet. But if you read the book, he delegated the task to move Hermione away to Neville, because
It's maybe my oversight, I didn't get your point on Hermione correctly. Do you actually want to say that "Harry cared for Hermione more than for Ron, because of the 'Don't let her be dead' thing? I disagree with that statement. I would have accepted if we stop at the "saving-people-thing" for everyone. These are evidences that Harry didn't care for Hermione more than anyone else.
1. Guilty feeling
Harry said:
"Like you won't kill us all anyway, the moment I hand it over!" said Harry [to Antonin Dolohov}.
A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly
...
"Don’t let her be dead, don’t let her be dead, it’s my fault if she’s dead …" (OOP Ch 35)
Harry linked his panic to the threat from Antonin Dolohov and the helpless situation with him under the point of Dolohov's wand and Neville being incapacitated. And thereafter he hoped that Hermione should not be dead.
Harry said it would be his fault, because it's his insistence to go, over Hermione's objection, that may cause Hermione to die prematurely. Hermione would die because of his error in judgement. At this point he didn't know about the others yet.
For sure he felt relieved that Hermione is not dead yet. But if you read the book, he delegated the task to move Hermione away to Neville, because
| QUOTE |
| "I've got to find the others," said Harry (OOP Ch 35). |
When Neville insisted Harry to stay together, Harry and Neville brought the unconscious Hermione to another room, and then Harry saw Ron, Ginny and Luna...
2. Left her and never think back
| QUOTE |
| They [Harry and Neville holding Hermione] walked a few steps forward, Neville tottering slightly due to Hermione's weight... "Ron!" croaked Harry, dashing toward them. "Ginny -- are you all --?" ... "Ginny?" Harry said fearfully. "What happened?" (OOP Ch 35) |
Harry left Hermione with Neville, without considering Neville being overwhelmed by Hermione's weight! He simply dashed to see Ron and Ginny. Harry made sure Luna helping Ginny and then went to help Ron. Nothing more about Hermione, who was left with Neville (how secure do you think it is to leave someone with Neville under attack? How reliable can Neville defend himself and one more vulnerable person?)
| QUOTE |
| Slipping and sliding he ran on toward the door. He lept over Luna, who was groaning on the floor, past Ginny, who said, "Harry-what-?" past Ron, who giggled feebly, and Hermione, who was still unconcious. (OOP Ch 36) |
And Harry did not pay any attention to Hermione anymore, since then, until he visited her and the others in the hospital a few days later.
For point 1, I can apply that to anybody involved: Ron, Neville, Luna or Ginny. If anyone died because of the botched rescue mission, Harry will blame himself endlessly. His friends have warned him to reconsider going, yet he didn't listen. Now he put the life of 5 dear friends in danger for nothing, because Sirius was nowhere to be found as in his dream.
For point 2, Hermione is not higher in priority than the others. Harry tried to help anyone and get everyone out there safely. I don't see him play favourite here.
Conclusion: Harry cared for Hermione as much as he cared for Ron, Ginny and others. He would feel guilty if any of them were dead, because of his decision to go to DoM.
EDIT:
I started typing my reply before Kipsy posted, delayed it for some rest and posted it without looking at the last postings. Sorry for duplicating the quotes.
Bandoth, the Ron's death scene is in the Chapter: "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" in OOP.
Bandoth - yup, the Woes of Ms Weasley in OotP. It was just a boggart, Ron hadn't died, and it wasn't a dream. I've got the US version also, and it's on page 175. (if you want more reference)
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, I see those quotes and think, "Ok, he has about the same reaction to death for everyone he cares about." |
lol, that was actually the point.
of course, then we've got "the buts"...
| QUOTE |
| Hermione's "death" brings a lot more description to it. A whine of panic. Can't think properly. The actual guilt and responsibility taking hold of him. He may use the same words, but a great deal has been added onto it. The attatchment emotions are quite a bit more overwhelming when Hermione hits the floor than even seeing Ginny "dead" on the floor or Ron "dead" in that quote I know little to nothing about. |
Well notice: Hermione was actually hurt and stayed that way for a good long while. If you read more of the passage, Ron's body was just a boggart and quickly changed into Bill's. There wasn't a lot of time to fit in a lot of emotions. But she DID manage four different things:
- air vanishing from his lungs
- falling through the floor
- brain turns icy cold
- doubt and denial
And I think those are some pretty overwhelming emotions. I don't think I need to go over the guilt, muggy's done that for me.
| QUOTE |
| Harry simply goes into denial with Ron's death and is only slightly desperate with Ginny. |
oh come on, that was more then denial! We've got three other components jammed into one sentence! These need to be looked into also.
Although in Ginny's death we don't have the same extreme emotions we see with Ron and Hermione, there is a LOT of desperation. A lot of begging, pleading, etc. He described her as her face being cold like marble. I thought it was sorta sweet....
I've got to go now, but I still want to hear your opinion regarding some of the CoS quotes.
Oh yeah! The boggart. You still notice it's only a giant sinking sensation. (Ok, I'm downsizing it, but still...)
Hmm. Perhaps I should take a lesson from The Giver and use extremely precise language in this post.
When Harry left Hermione in Neville's hands, he was following his instincts to see if everyone was alright, not to mention that they are in the circuliar-rotating room, meaning that they're not too far away. Harry isn't abandoning Neville and Hermione at all. I've always thought of that room being relatively small anyway, not like a big giant hall or anything. Though Neville may be struggling with Hermione, he sees someone else who needs more attention so he leaves them there. It's like a doctor having two patients, one with a broken leg, and the other suffering from a heart attack. Which do you help first? He already knows Hermione isn't dead and knows there's nothing he can do to help except protect her. End of story there.
That second quote where Harry "abandons" them, you notice that he is leading the Death Eaters away from his friends, trying to "sacrifice" himself to save them. Once again, it is not abandonment, but "saving people thing" working. Also, if you know that the danger is gone from your friends and you're in giagantic trouble, (In Harry's case about to be killed and/or watch Neville lose his mind and later watching a giant battle all the while trying to help Neville up giant steps while protecting a prophecy from people shooting crater-making spells everywhere... You get the picture) do you tend to think of those out of trouble? That stuff usually happens when you know you're about to die.
Speaking of which, Harry has had only one such real experience like that... down in the Chamber where he had drowsiness and Tom Riddle's voice droning on and on in his ear to distract him 'till Fawkes healed him. Therefore, we had no chance of seeing what his last thoughts would have been.
Harry's thoughts of his friends in danger obviously has great effect on Harry. He would blame himself endlessly if anyone died there, but Hermione hitting the ground is the first time we see these things come forth while people are in danger. It is the first real time we see Harry connecting failure with guilt. It is the first time he is completely "out of it". It is the first time he takes more than five seconds to make up his mind to run or just blast the stupid Death Eater. It's the first time he won't look when someone else falls. Don't give me Cedric as an example. His scar was blinding him there.
This is the first time that panic overrides everything he has known. That's not the Harry we know. The Harry we know would take on death itself at the age of eleven. This Harry can't even think straight.
I just see that as a little bigger reaction than those of everyone else getting blasted or hit anywhere...
Hmm. Perhaps I should take a lesson from The Giver and use extremely precise language in this post.
When Harry left Hermione in Neville's hands, he was following his instincts to see if everyone was alright, not to mention that they are in the circuliar-rotating room, meaning that they're not too far away. Harry isn't abandoning Neville and Hermione at all. I've always thought of that room being relatively small anyway, not like a big giant hall or anything. Though Neville may be struggling with Hermione, he sees someone else who needs more attention so he leaves them there. It's like a doctor having two patients, one with a broken leg, and the other suffering from a heart attack. Which do you help first? He already knows Hermione isn't dead and knows there's nothing he can do to help except protect her. End of story there.
That second quote where Harry "abandons" them, you notice that he is leading the Death Eaters away from his friends, trying to "sacrifice" himself to save them. Once again, it is not abandonment, but "saving people thing" working. Also, if you know that the danger is gone from your friends and you're in giagantic trouble, (In Harry's case about to be killed and/or watch Neville lose his mind and later watching a giant battle all the while trying to help Neville up giant steps while protecting a prophecy from people shooting crater-making spells everywhere... You get the picture) do you tend to think of those out of trouble? That stuff usually happens when you know you're about to die.
Speaking of which, Harry has had only one such real experience like that... down in the Chamber where he had drowsiness and Tom Riddle's voice droning on and on in his ear to distract him 'till Fawkes healed him. Therefore, we had no chance of seeing what his last thoughts would have been.
Harry's thoughts of his friends in danger obviously has great effect on Harry. He would blame himself endlessly if anyone died there, but Hermione hitting the ground is the first time we see these things come forth while people are in danger. It is the first real time we see Harry connecting failure with guilt. It is the first time he is completely "out of it". It is the first time he takes more than five seconds to make up his mind to run or just blast the stupid Death Eater. It's the first time he won't look when someone else falls. Don't give me Cedric as an example. His scar was blinding him there.
This is the first time that panic overrides everything he has known. That's not the Harry we know. The Harry we know would take on death itself at the age of eleven. This Harry can't even think straight.
I just see that as a little bigger reaction than those of everyone else getting blasted or hit anywhere...
I think that Harry loves Ron and Hermione very much equally. I think that each of them can be his best friend at different times. Ron is funny and is really loyal, while Hermione can always figure stuff out, help you with your homework, and provide a logical answer. Both of them are good for being best friends, just at different times. Both of their death scenes to me seem equal. With Ron, Harry had just seen Ron downstairs, so although the death shocked him, he didn't have to worry about it too long before remembering that it was a boggart. With Hermione, she fainted in midsentence, just fell down and wouldn't move. I would find that a much scarier circumstance, considering that they are in a very dangerous place, where murderers are surronding them (unlike Grimmauld Place). But this is all just my opinion. 
Bandoth, I am glad we are closing on to the "Saving-People-Thing" of Harry. He cared for everyone. His reactions to the presumed death of each of his close friends shown his deep feelings for them, but no romance. Kipsy already shown how the reaction to Ron and Hermione's peril is comparable. Interesting that Jo placed both cases in OOP. Harry's reaction to Ginny in COS is special, because he already felt as if that was the worst day in his life, when he first heard about her presumed dead. I wonder whether Jo would elaborate this again in HBP, because in OOP she mentioned about about Ginny's possession by Voldemort.
About so many "first time" you listed, it can be applied to almost all Harry's adventures. Every encounter with Voldemort is unique, and that had to be a lot of first times. There will be more first times in HBP, I presume.
About so many "first time" you listed, it can be applied to almost all Harry's adventures. Every encounter with Voldemort is unique, and that had to be a lot of first times. There will be more first times in HBP, I presume.
IndigoLily, I agree, DoM was a tad more life threatening than Grimmauld Place. And I don't think that Harry had full time to process the thought of Ron being dead before he realized that he couldn't be. Hermione is laying infront of him, they're in a deadly situation, and he feels terriably gulity already for leading them their for no reason. He's overwhelled, he's scared, and he thinks they might all died. He thinks his worst fears are coming true, and Hermione was proof of that for that second he thought she was dead.
And I don't think we're down playing Harry's bravery anout how he was trying to sacrfice himself, which he was just stating he didn't care about Hermione more than anyone else.
And I don't think we're down playing Harry's bravery anout how he was trying to sacrfice himself, which he was just stating he didn't care about Hermione more than anyone else.
YaY me! I actually read all of the posts. Mostly because reading hurts much less than typing at the moment. I'll keep this short, out of necessity.
The one glaring point which none of my fellow R/Hr's addressed.
The arguments over the Firebolt. Having read those passages recently, Ron does indeed get vocal with Hermione. However, there are several occassions where it is stated in the text, but not dialogue, in which Harry and Ron are both discussing Hermione's "betrayal" (for lack of a better word.)
This also reasserts my point. 90% of the conflict between Ron and Hermione has been over Harry, or relating to Harry in some way. This is because Ron speaks up to defend Harry, while Harry glares in a dark and brooding manner, bottling his anger, and doing everything in his power to avoid or ignore the object of his ire.
If you will note, during this entire time, Harry agrees wholeheartedly with everything Ron says.
I would go further indepth into an analysis of Ron's character, his excitement over even a chance to touch a broom he never expected to see outside of a store display, and perhaps about his grievance that Hermione refused to control her cat, though he told her over and over to keep it in hand . . .
But my wrist has gone from a dull, constant throb to a sharp, tingling fire. Good day!
The one glaring point which none of my fellow R/Hr's addressed.
The arguments over the Firebolt. Having read those passages recently, Ron does indeed get vocal with Hermione. However, there are several occassions where it is stated in the text, but not dialogue, in which Harry and Ron are both discussing Hermione's "betrayal" (for lack of a better word.)
This also reasserts my point. 90% of the conflict between Ron and Hermione has been over Harry, or relating to Harry in some way. This is because Ron speaks up to defend Harry, while Harry glares in a dark and brooding manner, bottling his anger, and doing everything in his power to avoid or ignore the object of his ire.
If you will note, during this entire time, Harry agrees wholeheartedly with everything Ron says.
I would go further indepth into an analysis of Ron's character, his excitement over even a chance to touch a broom he never expected to see outside of a store display, and perhaps about his grievance that Hermione refused to control her cat, though he told her over and over to keep it in hand . . .
But my wrist has gone from a dull, constant throb to a sharp, tingling fire. Good day!
LLTWK, I expect a lagre post and I am surpised to see a short one written by you. And that is true, Harry agrees, but he tends to pack all his feelings inside, he needs to work on that. In SS when she caught them Ron debates with her and Harry is worried about them being heard, he's not suporting her in any sense, which again is my problem with H/Hr.
LLtWK! I am glad you brought that case up, to give me opportunity to write this opinion which I have had in mind for a long time.
The fight between Ron and Hermione is mostly over control. That's make me realize R/Hr is meant to happen.
Ron is the official speaker of Harry's minds. Hermione places herself as Harry's conscience. We all know the classic war between our mind and conscience. "Want to skip class, but our conscience said no, I need to study" R-Hr fights over control to Harry's action.
Ron is very possessive to Scabbers. I think subconsciously Hermione wanted to chalenge that. Instead of buying owl, she bought a cat which not only has similar fur color as Ron's hair, but also showed aggresiveness towards Scabbers. I was puzzled why Hermione apologized to Ron about Scabbers' (presumed) dead, until it dawns to me that Hermione must have felt guilty for ever wanting Scabbers dead, at least subconsciously, judging from how 'careless' she is with Crookshanks whenever Scabbers is around. Hermione is fighting for the position of the most precious possession in Ron's life.
When Scabbers was found to be Peter, Hermione didn't use it to taunt Ron. She is content that Ron doesn't have the rat anymore, and Crookshanks suddenly is not prominent in her life (she left him playing alone in the garden or with Ginny)
When Ron took up Quidditch, out of sudden Quidditch became a game that causing rifts between houses to Hermione, a statement met with disgust by Harry and the twins. Some points out that Hermione is more attracted to it when Harry was in the team, but Hermione never shows more serious feeling to Harry either. So the feeling is not for who plays the game, but whose attention is being taken for the game, instead of for her. The first sign to Hermione's dislike was when she missed Ron in the evenings. It turns to coolness reception when the boys were back from training, lack of sincere appreciation when Ron was selected a keeper, and lastly to indifference when hearing Gryffindor got the cup. Harry was jubilant with "YES", whereas Hermione whispered "No" (OOP after back from seeing Grawp with Hagrid). The win will secure Ron's affection for the Quidditch and less time together with her. Hermione fights for Ron's focus outside classes.
That's all make sense given that we don't have clearer signs of Ron/Hermione relationship, like "I love you" expression or mutual kissing in public. We can only sense of the war of affection through other precious things in life.
Back to Firebolt. Do you see what I see? Hermione treated Firebolt as her competitor when she saw Ron gaping at it. That's in POA.
In GOF, Ron was gaping at someone else, and Hermione is waging war again that person until the end of the book![U]
The fight between Ron and Hermione is mostly over control. That's make me realize R/Hr is meant to happen.
Ron is the official speaker of Harry's minds. Hermione places herself as Harry's conscience. We all know the classic war between our mind and conscience. "Want to skip class, but our conscience said no, I need to study" R-Hr fights over control to Harry's action.
Ron is very possessive to Scabbers. I think subconsciously Hermione wanted to chalenge that. Instead of buying owl, she bought a cat which not only has similar fur color as Ron's hair, but also showed aggresiveness towards Scabbers. I was puzzled why Hermione apologized to Ron about Scabbers' (presumed) dead, until it dawns to me that Hermione must have felt guilty for ever wanting Scabbers dead, at least subconsciously, judging from how 'careless' she is with Crookshanks whenever Scabbers is around. Hermione is fighting for the position of the most precious possession in Ron's life.
When Scabbers was found to be Peter, Hermione didn't use it to taunt Ron. She is content that Ron doesn't have the rat anymore, and Crookshanks suddenly is not prominent in her life (she left him playing alone in the garden or with Ginny)
When Ron took up Quidditch, out of sudden Quidditch became a game that causing rifts between houses to Hermione, a statement met with disgust by Harry and the twins. Some points out that Hermione is more attracted to it when Harry was in the team, but Hermione never shows more serious feeling to Harry either. So the feeling is not for who plays the game, but whose attention is being taken for the game, instead of for her. The first sign to Hermione's dislike was when she missed Ron in the evenings. It turns to coolness reception when the boys were back from training, lack of sincere appreciation when Ron was selected a keeper, and lastly to indifference when hearing Gryffindor got the cup. Harry was jubilant with "YES", whereas Hermione whispered "No" (OOP after back from seeing Grawp with Hagrid). The win will secure Ron's affection for the Quidditch and less time together with her. Hermione fights for Ron's focus outside classes.
That's all make sense given that we don't have clearer signs of Ron/Hermione relationship, like "I love you" expression or mutual kissing in public. We can only sense of the war of affection through other precious things in life.
Back to Firebolt. Do you see what I see? Hermione treated Firebolt as her competitor when she saw Ron gaping at it. That's in POA.
In GOF, Ron was gaping at someone else, and Hermione is waging war again that person until the end of the book![U]
One point about Quidditch. Hermione never took much interest in it even when Harry was playing and Ron was not.
During CoS they are headed down to Harry's quidditch match when Hermione gets an idea and runs off to the library. It is then that she looked up Basilisks and was in turn petrified, along with Penelope Clearwater.
Of course, you might say that discovering the identity of the monster in the CoS is more important then some Quidditch match, but then if Hermione was harboring some secret crush for Harry and only watched quidditch to watch him, you'd think she'd let it wait a few hours.
Which also goes to show that romance is not the most important aspect of the books, but only a sidestory. Which is why I doubt the lovetriangle of doom will take place, simply because it would take up far too many pages that could be filled with something important. Like discovering the identity of the monster in the CoS.
During CoS they are headed down to Harry's quidditch match when Hermione gets an idea and runs off to the library. It is then that she looked up Basilisks and was in turn petrified, along with Penelope Clearwater.
Of course, you might say that discovering the identity of the monster in the CoS is more important then some Quidditch match, but then if Hermione was harboring some secret crush for Harry and only watched quidditch to watch him, you'd think she'd let it wait a few hours.
Which also goes to show that romance is not the most important aspect of the books, but only a sidestory. Which is why I doubt the lovetriangle of doom will take place, simply because it would take up far too many pages that could be filled with something important. Like discovering the identity of the monster in the CoS.
One reason that I do fight for R/Hr is that, if H/Hr happened, there would be quite a few consequences, and this isn't a soap opera...
1. Harry pretty much knows that Ron likes Hermione, it is stated so at the end of the Yule Ball chapter, which would be, IMO, betraying a friend.
2. If he suddenly gets these feelings for Hermione, and goes after her, and Hermione picks him, even though Ron has liked her for approximately 3 years, Ron is once again in Harry's shadow. A spot which we know is sensitive for him.
Overall, I don't seem them getting together, because it would split the trio up into a duo. And Harry notes quite often how much he wants to hang out with Ron over Hermione in the fourth book, a fact that cannot help the ship.
1. Harry pretty much knows that Ron likes Hermione, it is stated so at the end of the Yule Ball chapter, which would be, IMO, betraying a friend.
2. If he suddenly gets these feelings for Hermione, and goes after her, and Hermione picks him, even though Ron has liked her for approximately 3 years, Ron is once again in Harry's shadow. A spot which we know is sensitive for him.
Overall, I don't seem them getting together, because it would split the trio up into a duo. And Harry notes quite often how much he wants to hang out with Ron over Hermione in the fourth book, a fact that cannot help the ship.
...I always find attempts to gauge Harry's reaction to each of the three apparent 'deaths' - unconcious, possessed Ginny in COS, the-Boggart-as-Ron at the beginning of OotP, and Hermione towards the the end of OotP - deeply problematic because they occur at different critical moments throughout the series and within vastly different contexts.
When I compare Harry's reaction to Ginny and Hermione for instance I think it's impossible to surmise any romantic feelings from him in either encounter.
Harry is a younger and different person in COS to the brooding hostile adolesecent that he evolves into in OotP. There are also different imperatives in COS. When he goes into the Chamber, it is with the express purpose of rescuing Ginny, and he is already fearing the very worst.
Of course he is concerned and fears for her safety, but (IMO) it is clear throughout the book that he has no regard for her beyond being Ron's little sister, and a member of his 'favourite family', the Weasleys. This doesn't discount future romantic developments between G/H, but at that particular point in the series I didn't find any trace of romance in Harry's attitude towards Ginny, including the rescue.
When Harry enters the Department of Mysteries (in OotP) however, Hermione (unlike Ginny) is NOT his main priority - rescuing Sirius is. (Which is why I don't think these instances can tell us anything about who Harry likes or 'loves' more.) When Hermione spontaneously falls to the wayside, his reaction to her is not unlike his reaction to Ginny - fear, panic, anxiety, concern and caring - but NOT heartbreak or utter devestation.
I guess it could be argued that if Harry is not utterly devastated by what he initially presumes to be Hermione's death at this stage in the series (5 books down) - then when, if ever, will he be? But again - the same caveat applies. None of this discounts future romantic possibility.
In OotP, Ron's supposed death is quickly dispelled by reality (it turns out to be a Boggart), so we never get to see a full-scale reaction, just an instance of frozen fear. Hermione's collapse is less clear-cut and more suspenseful... but again, it is not a true death. The only deaths where we can be unequivocally certain about Harry's emotions are when Cedric Diggory and Sirius literally die.
This was earlier upthread but still...
Egla wrote:
When I compare Harry's reaction to Ginny and Hermione for instance I think it's impossible to surmise any romantic feelings from him in either encounter.
Harry is a younger and different person in COS to the brooding hostile adolesecent that he evolves into in OotP. There are also different imperatives in COS. When he goes into the Chamber, it is with the express purpose of rescuing Ginny, and he is already fearing the very worst.
Of course he is concerned and fears for her safety, but (IMO) it is clear throughout the book that he has no regard for her beyond being Ron's little sister, and a member of his 'favourite family', the Weasleys. This doesn't discount future romantic developments between G/H, but at that particular point in the series I didn't find any trace of romance in Harry's attitude towards Ginny, including the rescue.
When Harry enters the Department of Mysteries (in OotP) however, Hermione (unlike Ginny) is NOT his main priority - rescuing Sirius is. (Which is why I don't think these instances can tell us anything about who Harry likes or 'loves' more.) When Hermione spontaneously falls to the wayside, his reaction to her is not unlike his reaction to Ginny - fear, panic, anxiety, concern and caring - but NOT heartbreak or utter devestation.
I guess it could be argued that if Harry is not utterly devastated by what he initially presumes to be Hermione's death at this stage in the series (5 books down) - then when, if ever, will he be? But again - the same caveat applies. None of this discounts future romantic possibility.
In OotP, Ron's supposed death is quickly dispelled by reality (it turns out to be a Boggart), so we never get to see a full-scale reaction, just an instance of frozen fear. Hermione's collapse is less clear-cut and more suspenseful... but again, it is not a true death. The only deaths where we can be unequivocally certain about Harry's emotions are when Cedric Diggory and Sirius literally die.
This was earlier upthread but still...
Egla wrote:
| QUOTE |
| And imo if you want a clear declaration of choice between Harry and Ron than look at the fight between Harry and Ron in GoF, Hermione choses to spend the vast majority of her time with Harry and not with Ron. And don't come with the Harry was isolated because he was an "illegal" champion because the whole of Gryffindor house was supporting him. |
On the one hand all of the various posts that have pointed out that the novel is chiefly narrated from Harry's point of view, so the reader is never privy to the (quality or quantity) of time that Hermione spends with Ron, are correct IMO. It's difficult to draw any conclusions about the visible time that is spent with Harry, when we don't really get to see Hermione outside of Harry's presence.
At the same time, there are implications that Ron and Hermione are spending more time together, including summer holidays, which R/Hr shippers will generally argue is a sign of the inevitable - which it may well be. But again - it's difficult to judge time that you aren't privy to. I also take it into context.
After all, it's not as if either Hermione or Ron have the option of spending time with Harry at the Dursley's! Harry (unlike Ron) doesn't have the option of inviting anyone over to his place, while Hermione's Muggle home (and parents) seem to be largely out of the picture. So it is unsurprising that the Weasleys is a central convening point for the friends.
It could also be a matter of balance and contrast rather than a romantic indicator. After all, Harry and Ron spent the summer together in TGOF, so it's not that surprising that Hermione (the other friend) would spend the summer at Ron's house in the following book. Remember too, that Harry was unable to join them.
My main point is that thus far, spending time at Ron's house isn't proof of anything since Harry and Hermione's houses seem to be off limits as places to socialise, while Harry's socialisation over the summer is always hampered by the fact that he is under the protective custody of the Durslesy. Perhaps in the HBP, Ron will go over to Hermione's house over the summer, or will go away on holiday with her family....
If so, then I think that the Hr/R shippers would be entitled to raise some speculative eyebrows. But for now Harry, then Hermione, spending the summer over at Ron's reveals nothing to me other than that they are both friends of Ron and that they have both had the opportunity to spend a summer with Ron.
What I have wondered though is what Hermione would do if she were forced to choose between Ron and Harry? If they were both in difficulty and required her attention, time and assistance who would she first rush to aid - Harry or Ron?
Because the novel is predicated on crisis, Harry would get my vote, simply because his problems are generally far more dire and perilous than anything that has (thus far) happened to Ron. But I also think that if Harry could be said to have a 'saving-people-thing', then surely Hermione could be accused of having a 'helping-Harry-thing'.
Once again, I'm not trying to say that this is evidence of romance. It could just as easily be argued that Hermione simply places a higher premium on Harry's problems, his situation and his ultimate cause (i.e. defeating Voldemort) whereas she has generally surmised that Ron's more average, teenage problems and insecurities can wait. Hermione is serious and intelligent, so of course she is going to choose saving Harry's life or helping him against Voldemort over watching Ron triumph in a Quidditch match....
Speaking of which... Someone said that Hermione is not terribly interested in Quidditch even when Harry is playing? Well, I kind of agree. Hermione is really not into Quidditch at all - which makes the fact of her consistently turning up to the matches that Harry plays at - all the more noteworthy. When he isn't playing, she doesn't seem to be watching.
From the books, I have been given the distinct impression that while she cares about and is attracted to Ron, when push comes to shove, HARRY is her first priority. If Harry needs her help Hermione will put aside anything (or anyone) to rush to Harry's side, whereas I haven't seen the same depth of remarkable loyalty when it comes to Ron. She may well prefer Ron romantically, be more attracted to him and may pair up with him, but even still... I just think that it could be very interesting to see how Hermione divides her time between being Ron's girlfriend and Harry's staunchest supporter....
Ron is Harry's best friend, but I don't think that there is anyone who has shown greater, unswerving loyalty and has been of greater assistance to Harry than Hermione. Ron may have the luxury of taking time out to fight with Harry but Hermione has always supported him and stood by his side ( - even when has disagreed with her methods, such as turning in the firebolt to Professor McGonagall in TGOF.)
I am a Harry/Hermione shipper, and I have nothig to say except
HP+HG ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!! By the way, what does lol mean?
MOD EDIT: Hi, HP+HG! I'm sorry but this is a debate thread and as such, if you don't have anything to debate on maybe you should post in the H/Hr thread instead. Anyway, lol means 'laughs out loud'. And if you have anything to ask, just drop me or any other mods a PM (Personal Message), okay!
HP+HG ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!! By the way, what does lol mean?
MOD EDIT: Hi, HP+HG! I'm sorry but this is a debate thread and as such, if you don't have anything to debate on maybe you should post in the H/Hr thread instead. Anyway, lol means 'laughs out loud'. And if you have anything to ask, just drop me or any other mods a PM (Personal Message), okay!
Westerly, I like your posting for a balanced view of different aspects.
Just some corrections to make it consistent with the books:
Just some corrections to make it consistent with the books:
| QUOTE |
| It could also be a matter of balance and contrast rather than a romantic indicator. After all, Harry and Ron spent the summer together in TGOF, so it's not that surprising that Hermione (the other friend) would spend the summer at Ron's house in the following book. Remember too, that Harry was unable to join them. |
Hermione also spent the summer together with the Weasleys in GOF.
In fact, she came one day earlier than Harry.
| QUOTE |
| Speaking of which... Someone said that Hermione is not terribly interested in Quidditch even when Harry is playing? Well, I kind of agree. Hermione is really not into Quidditch at all - which makes the fact of her consistently turning up to the matches that Harry plays at - all the more noteworthy. When he isn't playing, she doesn't seem to be watching. |
I have to point out the "Ron" factor. Hermione dilligently watched Quidditch except for one time in COS (when she would be Petrified), cheering cheerfully with Ron on her side. When Harry's not playing, Ron was being butchered in the field, unable to attend together in the stand with her, Hermione lost interest to watch, so that her happiness does not depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability.
I agree with you analysis, that in the case of Harry being in danger, Hermione will be ready to help him, but so is Ron. We see starting in SS, that Ron and Hermione voluntarily wanted to be included to help Harry.
In GOF they disregarded their studying for exams to help Harry with the clues. I see them as a team to provide assistance for Harry, their best friend.
What do you think about the progression of Hermione's stay with Ron?
In POA, one night (at Leaky Cauldron)
In GOF, two weeks (at the Burrow and Quidditch World Cup)
In OOP, eight weeks (one week at the Burrow, seven at 12 GP) plus 2 weeks during Christmas.
In all cases she made appointments with Ron without Harry knowing it. It was from Ron that we know the arrangements. Hermione's parents seemed to trust the Weasleys fully for the care of their only daughter.
Ron is loyal, let's please not forget who truely said "If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us too." And if you don't, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Hermione. He also pushed Harry out of the way as Sirius, in dog form, was chargeing at them in front of the Womping Willow. To me it's clear, his love, his loyalty. He showed that he was willing to die for Harry before Hermione did. Just being perstive girl.
Hermione goes were she's needed, it part of who she is. And most of the time it's Harry who needs her more than Ron. Ron has his family, though they overshadow him they gave him a loving, healthy, childhood. If Ron did have a dier problem and Harry a normal one, she would go with Ron. If it was the other way around, Harry. I think she loves both of them differntly. With Harry it's more simply, he calls to her, she comes running. Ron calls she feels a rush of confussing feelings which she masks.
Hermione goes were she's needed, it part of who she is. And most of the time it's Harry who needs her more than Ron. Ron has his family, though they overshadow him they gave him a loving, healthy, childhood. If Ron did have a dier problem and Harry a normal one, she would go with Ron. If it was the other way around, Harry. I think she loves both of them differntly. With Harry it's more simply, he calls to her, she comes running. Ron calls she feels a rush of confussing feelings which she masks.
Who is always on Hermione’s mind?
In these five cases in OOP, Hermione had a chance to speak to Harry, while Ron is out-of-sight. Let’s see what she has to say to Harry.
1. Harry arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place (12GP). Mrs. Weasley told him to go upstair to meet Ron and Hermione. Right after Harry opened the door of the bedroom, Hermione hugged him and shouted:
In these five cases in OOP, Hermione had a chance to speak to Harry, while Ron is out-of-sight. Let’s see what she has to say to Harry.
1. Harry arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place (12GP). Mrs. Weasley told him to go upstair to meet Ron and Hermione. Right after Harry opened the door of the bedroom, Hermione hugged him and shouted:
| QUOTE |
| “HARRY! Ron, he’s here, Harry’s here! We didn’t hear you arrive!...” (OOP Ch 4 p. 62) |
First thing after calling Harry, Hermione immediately called for Ron. She wanted to share the joy of seeing Harry with Ron, not just for herself.
2. After the Quidditch game, in which Harry, Fred and George were banned, the team gathered in the common room, except for Ron. They were upset with the unfairness of Professor Umbridge.
| QUOTE |
| Fred and George sloped off to bed some time later, glowering at everyone they passed, and Ginny went not long after that. Only Harry and Hermione were left beside the fire. “Have you seen Ron?” Hermione asked in a low voice (OOP Ch 19 p. 418) |
Harry and Hermione were left alone at a cozy place by the fire. The first time Hermione spoke, immediately she asked for Ron.
3. Hermione came to 12GP for Christmas, but first, she had to lure Harry to come out of Buckbeak’s room. Harry didn’t expect her to come, because Hermione was supposed to go skiing with her parents.
| QUOTE |
| “I know you’re in there,” said Hermione’s voice. “Will you please come out? I want to talk to you.” “What are you doing here?” Harry asked her, pulling open the door, as Buckbeak resumed his scratching at the straw-strewen floor for any fragments of rat he might have dropped. "I thought you were skiing with your mum and dad." "Well, to tell you the truth, skiing's not really my thing," said Hermione. "So I've come for Christmas." There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. "But don't tell Ron that, I told him it's really good because he kept laughing so much. (OOP Ch 23 p. 488) |
Right after saying her reason to give up her skiing plan, her thought was directly on Ron and how to keep him laughing!
4. Ron was in Quidditch practice. While waiting for Ron to come after practice for dinner, Hermione asked Harry about his Valentine’s date with Cho. Hermione helped Harry analyzing the disastrous meeting, and gave Harry some ideas how to speak to Cho, for example by calling Hermione ugly.
| QUOTE |
| "But I don't think you're ugly," said Harry, bemused. Hermione laughed. "Harry, you're worse than Ron....Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall, splattered with mud and looking grumpy. (OOP Ch 26, p. 572) |
Harry gave a compliment to Hermione. Not exactly positive (like, pretty or beautiful), but still a compliment. Hermione accepted happily, but immediately she thought of Ron! For the compliment, she compared Harry to Ron and Ron (worse or not worse).
5. During the final Quidditch match, Hagrid insisted Harry and Hermione to come with him to meet Grawp.
Once there, Hagrid made them promise to do something for him, while he was away. Ron was not with them, as he was playing the match of his life. Only Harry and Hermione were there with Hagrid. This is Hermione’s reaction:
| QUOTE |
| “So what is it you want Harry and Ron and me to do?” Hermione asked apprehensively. (OOP Ch 30, p. 692) |
This girl, Hermione, was talking one-on-one with the wonder-boy, Harry, and she never failed to mention another boy, Ron. Apparently, Ron is always on Hermione’s mind.
I wonder if Jo likes the song “You are always on my mind” to be the background for R/Hr romance.
The only song that truely reminds me on Ron and Hermione is Accidently in Love by the Counting Crows, a lot of other songs remind me of a whole bunch of other stuff.
But intersting how she does mention Ron to Harry more that in the other books.
I was thinking about what someone said before that whatever decesion Hermione makes, we should be happy and I agree, I like Hermione too much.
One question I have to make, why do Harry and Hermione shippers often, not always, think that Harry and Hermione will get together after Ron and Hermione break up or resulting in a love triangle.
I was thinking about this very thing and why it would be conterdicting some of JKR major themes in the books and why I think it would be out of genre. I am so inspired by this I might just write an essay. And I meant the love triangle and stuff, not Harry and Hermione getting together in gernal.
But intersting how she does mention Ron to Harry more that in the other books.
I was thinking about what someone said before that whatever decesion Hermione makes, we should be happy and I agree, I like Hermione too much.
One question I have to make, why do Harry and Hermione shippers often, not always, think that Harry and Hermione will get together after Ron and Hermione break up or resulting in a love triangle.
I was thinking about this very thing and why it would be conterdicting some of JKR major themes in the books and why I think it would be out of genre. I am so inspired by this I might just write an essay. And I meant the love triangle and stuff, not Harry and Hermione getting together in gernal.
Here are some quotes:
Ron/Hermione proof quotes
__________________-________
Ron/Hermione proof quotes
__________________-________
| QUOTE |
| "Harry and Hermione are very platonic [platonic means nonsexual] friends. But I won't answer for anyone else. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink." -- From a National Press Club Luncheon chat with JK Rowling, October 1999) |
| QUOTE |
| "Oh," said Ron, his smile fading slightly. "Are you that bad at kissing?" "Dunno," said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried. "Maybe I am." "Of course you're not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. "How do you know?" said Ron in a sharp voice. |
| QUOTE |
| "Don't let Ron see what's on those Slytherin's badges," she whispered urgently. Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desparate. "Good luck, Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry --" Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened. |
| QUOTE |
| "All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?" said Hermione loftily. "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you." But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light. "Hermione, Neville's right -- you are a girl...." "Oh well spotted," she said acidly. "Well -- you can come with one of us!" "No, I can't," snapped Hermione. "Oh come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..." "I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm already going with someone." "No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!" "Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl!" |
| QUOTE |
| He climed into the common room and found Ron and Hermione having a blazing row. Standing ten feet apart, they were bellowing at each other, each scarlet in the face. "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?" yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of it's elegant bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger. "Oh yeah?" Ron yelled back. "What's that?" "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron turned to look at Harry. "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well -- that just proves -- completely missed the point --" |
And that's all the quotes for now!!
-strength
strength, just pointing your attention to this particular rule:
| QUOTE |
| DON'T * Quote extensive chunks of the Harry Potter books to illustrate a point; it takes up bandwith. If you wish to quote the books, then give the page number and a sentence or two, to indicate the passage to which you're referring. |
Please remember that the next time you post in here. Thanks.
Strength, very refreshing to read the quotes. Thanks.
Amyrat151, the song that is also good for R/Hr is "Never, never, never" sung by Shirley Bassey. A part of the lyric:
"You make me glad, you make me mad, for you...
I love you, hate you, love you, hate you
But I'll want you till the world stops turning
For whatever you do
I never, never, never want to be
in love with anyone but you"
Now a new discussion topic:
But Hermione didn’t leave!
Amyrat151, the song that is also good for R/Hr is "Never, never, never" sung by Shirley Bassey. A part of the lyric:
"You make me glad, you make me mad, for you...
I love you, hate you, love you, hate you
But I'll want you till the world stops turning
For whatever you do
I never, never, never want to be
in love with anyone but you"
Now a new discussion topic:
But Hermione didn’t leave!
| QUOTE |
| “All right, all right, I won’t tell him [Sirius], then!” said Harry irritably. He got to his feet. “I’m going to bed. Tell Ron for me, will you?” “Oh no,” said Hermione, looking relieved, “If you’re going that means I can go too, without being rude. I’m absolutely exhausted and I want to make some more hats tomorrow. Listen, you can help me if you like, it’s quite fun, I’m getting better, I can do patterns and bobbles and all sorts of things now.” Harry looked into her face, which was shining with glee, and tried to look as though he was vaguely tempted by this offer. “Er… no, I don’t think I will, thanks,” he said. “Er-- not tomorrow. I’ve got loads of homework to do…” And he traipsed off to the boys’ stairs, leaving her looking slightly disappointed. (OOP Ch 13, p.278) |
This quote has been used to claim that Hermione ignored Ron's party but willingly asked Harry to knit together with her. However, this is again a clever literary trick from Jo Rowling. The fact is: Hermione hasn’t left yet, when Harry climbed the stairs. She said she was about to leave, so Harry wouldn’t feel bad leaving Ron’s party, but she was not heading to girls’ dormitory yet!
Once we see this, actually Hermione’s words to Harry are what normally the lady of the house says to her guest who wants to leave early. After Hermione made sure Harry didn’t tell many things in his owl to Sirius (because all owls are monitored), she proceeds by assuring Harry it’s okay to leave early, because she also wants to do that due to exhaustion. Then, she offers Harry to help her doing the knitting “tomorrow”, not tonight. Tonight Ron was busy, but “tomorrow” Ron will be available as well, so if Harry helps, Ron will have no other choice but to help. Hermione didn’t offer knitting one-on-one. She wants to lure Harry and possibly Ron to help her with S.P.E.W. Harry declined and left Hermione in the common room looking slightly disappointed. Still, Hermione stayed in the room. The canon didn’t say she walked to her dorm. It’s possible she went to Ron telling him about Harry leaving and then went to bed.
Someone posted the theory that Fred and Geogre gave her something so that she would fall asleep and they could carry on with there business and not get intureted by Hermione who would take all there stuff for there shop away. I think it's reasonable, that's how I see that she was less than happy for Ron.
Muggy I think you're jumping to conclusions, but you could of took a strp and there counclusions were. And as shippers we are dying to turn chicken salads into chickens. Now this post was short, but I should go to bed now.
Muggy I think you're jumping to conclusions, but you could of took a strp and there counclusions were. And as shippers we are dying to turn chicken salads into chickens. Now this post was short, but I should go to bed now.
I think that IF fred and george would have done something like that, jk would have explained it later..
MOD EDIT : This is a debate thread (and a R/H vs H/H one at that, so your post is considered off-topic because you've made no reference to either ship). That being said, this is not the place for one-liners. Posts will need to be of a reasonable length in here.
MOD EDIT : This is a debate thread (and a R/H vs H/H one at that, so your post is considered off-topic because you've made no reference to either ship). That being said, this is not the place for one-liners. Posts will need to be of a reasonable length in here.
One word: Oi. I think I have made the right decision. I'm going to be backing out of this "debate" if you can call it that anymore. Many of the R/Hr shippers say that H/Hr shippers take things out of context and make them something they're not, but in the last fifteen posts I've seen it been done over twenty times. (It may be a bit of an exageration but it's a lot.)
Bandoth,
That was the point I made to muggleview in my very first post answering their very first post. There is enough evidence for R/Hr that R/Hr shippers do not need to dig further into the text. While the evidence for H/Hr requires personal interpretation.
The reasons I think the scene muggleview quoted is significant to the R/Hr ship have nothing to do with interpretation.
1. Harry enters the dormitory and finds everyone partying. Ron runs up to him to tell him the good news. Harry is still anxious and worried about his scar hurting when Umbridge touched his hand in their last detention for the week.
2.
That was the point I made to muggleview in my very first post answering their very first post. There is enough evidence for R/Hr that R/Hr shippers do not need to dig further into the text. While the evidence for H/Hr requires personal interpretation.
The reasons I think the scene muggleview quoted is significant to the R/Hr ship have nothing to do with interpretation.
1. Harry enters the dormitory and finds everyone partying. Ron runs up to him to tell him the good news. Harry is still anxious and worried about his scar hurting when Umbridge touched his hand in their last detention for the week.
2.
| QUOTE ("pg. 275 OotP") |
| "Have a butterbeer." Ron pressed a bottle onto him. "I can't believe it - where's Hermione gone?" |
Ron notices Hermione missing even in the midst of his celebration.
3.
3.
| QUOTE ("pg. 275") |
| Hermione was dozing in [an armchair by the fire], her drink tipping precariously in her hand. |
4. Ron is then called away so that he can try on Oliver Wood's old quidditch robes.
5. Harry moves over to sit next to Hermione who wakes when he puts his school bag down.
| QUOTE ("pg. 276") |
| "Oh, Harry, it's you . . . Good about Ron, isn't it?" she said blearily. "I'm just so - so -so tired," she yawned. "I was up until one o'clock making more hats. They're disappearing like mad!" |
6. "Great." Is all Harry says on that subject before launching into his story about Umbridge. Hermione then tells him it's unlikely Umbridge was the root of his scar hurting, and tries to get him to go to Dumbledore.
7. This is where muggleview's quote begins.
~
It is plain that Hermione was exhausted because her spew obsession kept her up half the night before. She then made a valient effort to stay awake to support Ron and enjoy the party. She failed, and fell asleep in the chair. Whether Fred and George slipped a mickey in her butterbeer is open to interpretation. As she states she was exhausted from staying up making hats the night before, I don't find this likely.
The only reason Hermione left at all was that Harry was leaving, thereby creating a window which Hermione could slip through without insulting Ron.
Evidence against H/Hr exists in this passage as well. Harry becomes irritated with Hermione's lack of support for his theory that Umbridge is evil and in the employ of Voldemort. Then, when Hermione tries to recruit him into some spew activity, something she is obviously passionate about, Harry flatly refuses. He even has to force himself to look as if he is considering it.
Harry does not share Hermione's interests, and Hermione does not blindly support him and argues against him, telling him what he should do. Things which Harry finds irritating. As that is Hermione's personality, and she is unlikely to change, it shows two things. 1. He does not share her interests - and can't even pretend to share them well. 2. He is irritated by her personality.
Of course, I don't believe JK Rowling intentionally put anything shippy into this passage, as she did with the Yule Brawl, or after the 2nd task, or the Cho Connection, or Percy's Letter. Those just being a few of the more obvious instances where JK did intentionally include evidence of romance between members of the trio.
| QUOTE (Bandoth @ May 21 2005, 04:59 PM) |
| One word: Oi. I think I have made the right decision. I'm going to be backing out of this "debate" if you can call it that anymore. Many of the R/Hr shippers say that H/Hr shippers take things out of context and make them something they're not, but in the last fifteen posts I've seen it been done over twenty times. (It may be a bit of an exageration but it's a lot.) |
No, Bandoth, I'm inclined to agree, to be honest. It's why I backed out too.
On a mod note though, can we please keep it evidence based as per books and not song quotations that are largely irrelevant and subjectively interpreted anyway and suppositions about what may or may not have happened outside the actual events told in the text. Again - irrelevant, do not contribute to the debate and are supremely subjective.
This thread is dying...and rapidly becoming solely a R/Hr one...if you guys are just going to have conversations amongst yourselves like this to strengthen your own arguments, why don't you do it in the R/Hr official thread because then maybe the H/Hr shippers won't feel so intimidated and this thread can get going again. I don't think there are currently any H/Hr debators here, are there? And pseudo-ones don't count.
[/QUOTE]This thread is dying...and rapidly becoming solely a R/Hr one...if you guys are just going to have conversations amongst yourselves like this to strengthen your own arguments, why don't you do it in the R/Hr official thread because then maybe the H/Hr shippers won't feel so intimidated and this thread can get going again. I don't think there are currently any H/Hr debators here, are there? And pseudo-ones don't count.[QUOTE]
i havent been here for quite some time now and i feel the discussion over the last few pages seems to be disjointed.I have always been H/Hr and would like to take part in a good and sensible debate here.
i havent been here for quite some time now and i feel the discussion over the last few pages seems to be disjointed.I have always been H/Hr and would like to take part in a good and sensible debate here.
I'm just poking in for a sec.
I'm speaking on behalf of r/hr shippers to answer your question, Bandoth:
I'm speaking on behalf of r/hr shippers to answer your question, Bandoth:
| QUOTE |
| Many of the R/Hr shippers say that H/Hr shippers take things out of context and make them something they're not, but in the last fifteen posts I've seen it been done over twenty times. |
Right. Ok. H/hr shippers continously, and continously say our ship isn't deep, mere puppy love. You say h/hr is deeper and much stronger. In my last big post, thats what I did. I tried some of your debating techniques, and took some things that could really be interpreted any way, and chose it to be r/hr evidence. That's all we're doing. Now why don't you do that for r/hr? Find us some real canon evidence. Something where I could look at that, and not be able to come up with something to contradict it. We've done it. None of you are denying Ron likes Hermione. Well, why don't you do it?
| QUOTE |
| Oi. I think I have made the right decision. I'm going to be backing out of this "debate" if you can call it that anymore. |
Hmm. Alright then, but you were a good debater.
These debates were WAY more fun when we got along.
Ok, I have a question for both R/Hr and H/Hr shippers.
What do you think will happen with your ship?
Like do you think that they'll end up together in the end, or do you think that they'll just date for a little while and then break up? Or they'll date and then one will die in the end?
Sorry, but I am just curious about all shippers answers.
What do you think will happen with your ship?
Like do you think that they'll end up together in the end, or do you think that they'll just date for a little while and then break up? Or they'll date and then one will die in the end?
Sorry, but I am just curious about all shippers answers.
Well, I hope that all three of the trio will live through the end. I don't think it likely, however, and for some reason I fear for Hermione the most, even though Ron is the more likely candidate from what we have of the text.
Hermione's tendancy to freeze up when confronted with life threatening situations may have something to do with it.
Assuming they all survive, I believe Ron and Hermione will be together at the end of the seventh novel, which, in effect, is the end of speculation. (Unless more books come out.) Which I know will not stop most people from speculating, but at that time I will cease to pay attention, so it's all to the good.
I largely dropped out of this debate for the reason that a few weeks after I began posting, everyone else quit. Which, at the time, somewhat bothered me. But as they were all H/Hr's I've come to think of it as a compliment.
I haven't been posting recently, because I haven't seen any arguments that needed addressing. When I do, I post. Hence my last two.
Hermione's tendancy to freeze up when confronted with life threatening situations may have something to do with it.
Assuming they all survive, I believe Ron and Hermione will be together at the end of the seventh novel, which, in effect, is the end of speculation. (Unless more books come out.) Which I know will not stop most people from speculating, but at that time I will cease to pay attention, so it's all to the good.
I largely dropped out of this debate for the reason that a few weeks after I began posting, everyone else quit. Which, at the time, somewhat bothered me. But as they were all H/Hr's I've come to think of it as a compliment.
I haven't been posting recently, because I haven't seen any arguments that needed addressing. When I do, I post. Hence my last two.
On CoS forums, a H/Hr shipper said, 'the Yule ball is H/Hr, becuase Harry says she's pretty," and then posted a number of quotes. I repiled, saying:
Harry first describes the girl that he doesn't recognize as Hermione as "a very pretty girl", then goes on to say later that "She didn't look like Hermione." So, well, a very pretty girl doesn't look like Hermione, Hmmm?? He doesn't focus on JUST the positive, either - he focuses on an absense of the NEGATIVE...Well, her hair's not bushy. Well, her teeth look normal now. Well, she doesn't have a ton of books on her bag. This is REAL flattering. HEY Hermione, you look great - you look the polar opposite of how you normally do!
Even worse is that Harry describes Parvati and everyone else as noticing Hermione with "unflattering disbelief". Was his disbelief, I dunno, flattering?
Who is the ONLY ONE in the ROOM that does not look at her in unflattering disbelief?
Ron.
He is the only one who is not noted as being completely shocked that Hermione could possibly look this beautiful. He is the only one who is noted as having observed the change in her teeth before. You can percieve his turning away as being rude, but I don't - I personally feel that he doesn't need to gaze at her in awe because he probably knows how pretty she is.
Who would YOU rather have - the one who sees your beauty every day, or the one who is just as shocked as the next person that you can look nice???
Just my view on things...
~Esrb99~
Harry first describes the girl that he doesn't recognize as Hermione as "a very pretty girl", then goes on to say later that "She didn't look like Hermione." So, well, a very pretty girl doesn't look like Hermione, Hmmm?? He doesn't focus on JUST the positive, either - he focuses on an absense of the NEGATIVE...Well, her hair's not bushy. Well, her teeth look normal now. Well, she doesn't have a ton of books on her bag. This is REAL flattering. HEY Hermione, you look great - you look the polar opposite of how you normally do!
Even worse is that Harry describes Parvati and everyone else as noticing Hermione with "unflattering disbelief". Was his disbelief, I dunno, flattering?
Who is the ONLY ONE in the ROOM that does not look at her in unflattering disbelief?
Ron.
He is the only one who is not noted as being completely shocked that Hermione could possibly look this beautiful. He is the only one who is noted as having observed the change in her teeth before. You can percieve his turning away as being rude, but I don't - I personally feel that he doesn't need to gaze at her in awe because he probably knows how pretty she is.
Who would YOU rather have - the one who sees your beauty every day, or the one who is just as shocked as the next person that you can look nice???
Just my view on things...
~Esrb99~
| QUOTE (Bandoth @ May 21 2005, 04:59 PM) |
| One word: Oi. I think I have made the right decision. I'm going to be backing out of this "debate" if you can call it that anymore. Many of the R/Hr shippers say that H/Hr shippers take things out of context and make them something they're not, but in the last fifteen posts I've seen it been done over twenty times. (It may be a bit of an exageration but it's a lot.) |
| QUOTE (Dana_Scully) |
| No, Bandoth, I'm inclined to agree, to be honest. It's why I backed out too. On a mod note though, can we please keep it evidence based as per books and not song quotations that are largely irrelevant and subjectively interpreted anyway and suppositions about what may or may not have happened outside the actual events told in the text. Again - irrelevant, do not contribute to the debate and are supremely subjective. This thread is dying...and rapidly becoming solely a R/Hr one...if you guys are just going to have conversations amongst yourselves like this to strengthen your own arguments, why don't you do it in the R/Hr official thread because then maybe the H/Hr shippers won't feel so intimidated and this thread can get going again. I don't think there are currently any H/Hr debators here, are there? And pseudo-ones don't count. |
Bandoth and Louise,
You cannot back off and say it is because the other party do so and so. It's your decision and your right to back off or not, regardless what the other party is doing.
If you think the other party's arguments are too intimidated, you should check your facts again. If the Jo Rowling said to leave clues for the future books, there must be sufficient to find. And... before she says so, no party can claim to be the winner!
When you are overwhelmed with too many postings against you, you can always reply one poster each time.
Well, as Kipsy said, you were good debaters. Hope to hear from you again (may be your gloat if HBP points to H/Hr)
Louise, when I said before I was trying to make this thread "alive", you gave me a sharp warning :shudder:. Well, I tried. I poke with some crazy ideas, but nobody pounced (except for Ellen with a mild rebuke).
Esrb99,
I agree with your posting, but I have to give you this movie disappointment spoiler warning:
SPOILER!!!
From different interviews, it is said that Ron will look shocked at Hermione's appearance in the GOF movie.
END SPOILER!!!
I think Ron was surprised, but unlike others who looked in disbelief, Ron looked in anger, because of the man next to Hermione is someone he never thought to do so.
To me, this is the moment Ron realized that he can lose Hermione. He didn't worry about Neville. Apparently, among the male students at Hogwarts, he didn't see anybody as a worthy love rival. Harry is definitely not, because Ron and Harry are speaking term.
But Krum is different.
As Ron becomes too sure about his chance, he took it for granted that Hermione would still be available until the last minute. He was wrong. He got worried. Somehow Ron feared a bad thing would happen (he kept asked where Hermione was), and then the worst thing was happening. His love rival is his idol!
Whatever Ron has in store to impress Hermione, nothing is comparable to Viktro Krum. So he had to go for guerilla tactics. Little did he know that what he had to do to prevent it was to ask her first, until Hermione pointed that out. We see that Hermione valued Ron more than Viktor. (Ah, well, it's difficult to understand a teenager's mind, especially the girls).
For the summer: she chose to go with Ron.
For the winter: she chose to go to Ron, after knowing Ron's father was injured.
Viktor may have gotten a "novel" from Hermione, but Ron has ordered a book from her.
LLtWK! So you are the intimidator! (Try to find scapegoat here
)Glad to hear from you. How about the H/G vs. H/other girl debate?
IndigoLily,
From the clues I gathered, I believe H/G and R/Hr will survive at the end and form a big family. They will be the people to maintain peace in the wizarding world and the bridge to the muggle world. Thus, the balance is restored (er, I don't mean to quote the other films, but it seems fitting here).
MrLupin,
What clues in OOP that make you sure Hermione loves Harry, instead of Ron?
Well this is depressing, I've been gone forever and we're still on the same page. Were are all the H/Hr shippers, this is no longer a debate without them, or new people who bring new ideas. I have a few words for all of you.
Muggy, I'm just trying to keep your theories in porsetive, I'm looking out for you. I was surpised that no H/Hr shippers changelled them, well I was ready to say that they sounded a tad out there.
I think he'll look pleasantly surpised, that what it looks like form the clips I've seen. I love the way she looks, she reminds me of Bell from Beauty and the Beast.
I agree with how he reacted, he was worried. And replaced that with being angry and jealous.
Esrb99, Awsome way to respond to that question! Good for you. I think that the fact that Hermione was "a girl he didn't reconize" is kept out of that quote by H/Hr people. Once he relizes it's her he doesn't say that she's pretty again. He never remarked on her appernace that's any other time. Romantic love can't just apear out of friendship love.
Although, I think JK hinted that she did spend time with Victor over that summer, I will try and find the quote if I can.
LLTWK, please don't disapear on us, I will humbly admit you're so much better at this than I am, and the reast of us probaly will yield to that statement too.
You think Hermione is most likey to die...intersting.
IndigoLily, obviously I am hoping all three of them will live. And I would hate the idea of H/Hr happening, Harry dies and Ron and Hermione then getting together, almost like they felt like they have to. Same goes for Ron and Hermione, Ron dying and then...I think either way, it will be a forever deal, forever, that's the point.
kipsy, thank you, sweet kipsy. We are simply defend ourselfs, that's part of a debate, trying to prove that if Ron and Hermione would get together it won't be a shallow relationship. That is nothing like them, they're both serius, mature, young adults. But I find a good number of H/Hr shippers seem to not understand Ron at all or very little.
Yours is my favorite post on this page, and H/Hr shippers should mabye do what you suggested.
MrLupin, Louise, Banthod, please post, bring back the good debate you seek, don't post about how it's turning into R/Hr and conplain, post and say something to change this funk we're in! Do something about it!
Muggy, I'm just trying to keep your theories in porsetive, I'm looking out for you. I was surpised that no H/Hr shippers changelled them, well I was ready to say that they sounded a tad out there.
I think he'll look pleasantly surpised, that what it looks like form the clips I've seen. I love the way she looks, she reminds me of Bell from Beauty and the Beast.
I agree with how he reacted, he was worried. And replaced that with being angry and jealous.
Esrb99, Awsome way to respond to that question! Good for you. I think that the fact that Hermione was "a girl he didn't reconize" is kept out of that quote by H/Hr people. Once he relizes it's her he doesn't say that she's pretty again. He never remarked on her appernace that's any other time. Romantic love can't just apear out of friendship love.
Although, I think JK hinted that she did spend time with Victor over that summer, I will try and find the quote if I can.
LLTWK, please don't disapear on us, I will humbly admit you're so much better at this than I am, and the reast of us probaly will yield to that statement too.
You think Hermione is most likey to die...intersting.
IndigoLily, obviously I am hoping all three of them will live. And I would hate the idea of H/Hr happening, Harry dies and Ron and Hermione then getting together, almost like they felt like they have to. Same goes for Ron and Hermione, Ron dying and then...I think either way, it will be a forever deal, forever, that's the point.
kipsy, thank you, sweet kipsy. We are simply defend ourselfs, that's part of a debate, trying to prove that if Ron and Hermione would get together it won't be a shallow relationship. That is nothing like them, they're both serius, mature, young adults. But I find a good number of H/Hr shippers seem to not understand Ron at all or very little.
Yours is my favorite post on this page, and H/Hr shippers should mabye do what you suggested.
MrLupin, Louise, Banthod, please post, bring back the good debate you seek, don't post about how it's turning into R/Hr and conplain, post and say something to change this funk we're in! Do something about it!
I disagree with everyone's analysis of Ron's reaction to Hermione. He was more disbelieving than anyone. Ron is searching for Hermione the entire time, asking where she could be several times, constantly craning his neck to see over the crowd. Even after Harry recognizes her, he notes Ron's searching eyes passing over her without recognizing the object of his search.
I would speculate that the first time he does realize who the "pretty girl in the blue dress" was would have been when the Champions were dancing, and Ron was finally able to put two and two together when he saw who Viktor Krum was dancing with. The next time we see him he is silent and brooding. He finally talks to rail against Viktor Krum to Hermione.
If anyone could not believe the changes Hermione had made to her appearance, it is Ronald Weasley.
I would speculate that the first time he does realize who the "pretty girl in the blue dress" was would have been when the Champions were dancing, and Ron was finally able to put two and two together when he saw who Viktor Krum was dancing with. The next time we see him he is silent and brooding. He finally talks to rail against Viktor Krum to Hermione.
If anyone could not believe the changes Hermione had made to her appearance, it is Ronald Weasley.
LLtWK! One problem with the speculation: Krum.
At that time, Ron was still idolizing Krum. When Krum arrived, Ron would certainly look at him and then to the girl next to Krum. He was shocked but he played it cool (brooding with anger) and walked passed by them.
Walking passed by Viktor Krum? That's not Ron the fan!
IMO, Ron and Padma had to walk over to give space, because the champions will start the dance. Ron did that without looking at Viktor. Harry noted that he didn't peek at the pair Krum/Hermione at all. After he found a place, he started to look at them with narrowed eyes.
At that time, Ron was still idolizing Krum. When Krum arrived, Ron would certainly look at him and then to the girl next to Krum. He was shocked but he played it cool (brooding with anger) and walked passed by them.
Walking passed by Viktor Krum? That's not Ron the fan!
IMO, Ron and Padma had to walk over to give space, because the champions will start the dance. Ron did that without looking at Viktor. Harry noted that he didn't peek at the pair Krum/Hermione at all. After he found a place, he started to look at them with narrowed eyes.
| QUOTE (Muggleview) |
| If you think the other party's arguments are too intimidated, you should check your facts again. If the Jo Rowling said to leave clues for the future books, there must be sufficient to find. And... before she says so, no party can claim to be the winner! |
Er...what? I never backed off because I found any arguments "intimidating"...I backed off because I was wasting my time - I still say it is completely pointless arguing about things that may or may not have happened 'off-stage' as it were and using that as "evidence", not to mention that we were going round in circles because everyone sees the books differently and it always ended with 'agree to disagree'...but I'm not repeating myself again...you all know the reasons why I left it. If we can all agree to stick to the rules, (i.e evidence based, not suppositions) then maybe I'll consider coming back, but as it is, I find posting here thoroughly demoralising and tiring, so I'm remaining up here on my fence where I'm quite happy with my beating stick, which shall stay in its box just as long as everyone here behaves themselves.
| QUOTE (IndigoLily) |
| Ok, I have a question for both R/Hr and H/Hr shippers. What do you think will happen with your ship? Like do you think that they'll end up together in the end, or do you think that they'll just date for a little while and then break up? Or they'll date and then one will die in the end? Sorry, but I am just curious about all shippers answers. |
Er...nope. This is a debate thread - evidence based. That would be supposition...you're welcome to discuss that in the R/Hr or H/Hr thread, just as long as what you're posting is supportive.
Oh, BTW, just incase anyone was interested, my exams are over and I'm officially back...so behave yourselves...I'm watching...
Life changing moments in R/Hr relationship
If the assumption of Ron and Hermione becoming a couple is correct, when did the life changing moment in the relationship take place? When did Ron or Hermione realize their non-platonic affection to the other?
As Jo indicated in her interview, in GOF Hermione realized her feeling earlier than Ron ("typical boys"). It’s also a result of the age difference, where Hermione is a few months older than Ron. According to the experts in child development, at a similar age teenage girls generally reach emotion maturity earlier than the boys, making girls psychologically seemingly more mature than boys in the period of puberty. Thus, Jo has accurately portrayed Hermione to be more mature than Ron up to book 5.
1. When did Hermione realize that she has non-platonic feeling to the boy?
My assumption is during the term after February in the third year at Hogwarts.
It was during the separation that one realizes how much he/she misses someone.
Jo Rowling has made Harry and Ron, in turn, to be separated from Hermione.
First, with Harry in the Firebolt case. Hermione reported to Professor McGonagall that Harry received an anonymous gift of Firebolt broomstick. To confirm that the broomstick was not hexed, Professor McGonagall confiscated the broomstick for an indefinite time. Harry was angry at Hermione and did not talk to her for several weeks until the broomstick was returned to him. However, at the end Hermione did not show any special emotion when Harry started to talk to her. She was still insisting that she was right to take the precautionary action. When Harry tried to discuss with her about her heavy school schedule and kindly urged her to take less, Hermione looked “scandalized” (POA p. 251)
Second, with Ron when Scabbers was allegedly eaten by Crookshank. Right after the friendship between Harry and Hermione was restored, Ron found blood on his bedsheet, Scabbers, his pet, was missing, and Crookshank (Hermione’s pet cat)’s hair on the nearby floor. He concluded that Scabbers was eaten by Crookshank. Hermione refused to believe the proof. They did not talk to each other for several weeks as well. Harry noted the seriousness of this separation:
If the assumption of Ron and Hermione becoming a couple is correct, when did the life changing moment in the relationship take place? When did Ron or Hermione realize their non-platonic affection to the other?
As Jo indicated in her interview, in GOF Hermione realized her feeling earlier than Ron ("typical boys"). It’s also a result of the age difference, where Hermione is a few months older than Ron. According to the experts in child development, at a similar age teenage girls generally reach emotion maturity earlier than the boys, making girls psychologically seemingly more mature than boys in the period of puberty. Thus, Jo has accurately portrayed Hermione to be more mature than Ron up to book 5.
1. When did Hermione realize that she has non-platonic feeling to the boy?
My assumption is during the term after February in the third year at Hogwarts.
It was during the separation that one realizes how much he/she misses someone.
Jo Rowling has made Harry and Ron, in turn, to be separated from Hermione.
First, with Harry in the Firebolt case. Hermione reported to Professor McGonagall that Harry received an anonymous gift of Firebolt broomstick. To confirm that the broomstick was not hexed, Professor McGonagall confiscated the broomstick for an indefinite time. Harry was angry at Hermione and did not talk to her for several weeks until the broomstick was returned to him. However, at the end Hermione did not show any special emotion when Harry started to talk to her. She was still insisting that she was right to take the precautionary action. When Harry tried to discuss with her about her heavy school schedule and kindly urged her to take less, Hermione looked “scandalized” (POA p. 251)
Second, with Ron when Scabbers was allegedly eaten by Crookshank. Right after the friendship between Harry and Hermione was restored, Ron found blood on his bedsheet, Scabbers, his pet, was missing, and Crookshank (Hermione’s pet cat)’s hair on the nearby floor. He concluded that Scabbers was eaten by Crookshank. Hermione refused to believe the proof. They did not talk to each other for several weeks as well. Harry noted the seriousness of this separation:
| QUOTE |
It looked like the end of Ron and Hermione’s friendship. Each was so angry with the other that Harry couldn’t see how they’d ever make up (POA p.252) |
Unlike in the Firebolt case, Hermione took the separation much seriously. Jo Rowling wrote four incidents to show this.
The first one happened during the celebration after the Gryffindor Quidditch team beat the Ravenclaw’s, when Harry tried to persuade Hermione to join the party. However, Hermione did not want because she believed Ron did not want her to join in. At that very moment, Ron intentionally reminded everyone loudly about Scabbers and this made Hermione sobbing and running back to her dormitory. The peculiar thing is the party was open for any Gryffindors, and Ron was not in the team, so he should not have a say about who could join in.
The second one was told by Hagrid to Ron and Harry. He mentioned how Hermione cried a few times during the separation and very upset to learn about the murder attempt on Ron. The way Hagrid said it makes Hermione’s upset seems different to her reactions to Harry’s several bruises with death.
The third incident was when Hermione threatened to report Professor McGonagall about the Marauder’s Map if Harry would sneak out to Hogsmeade again. Ron immediately responded sharply by accusing her of trying to get Harry expelled. When Crookshank suddenly jumped to her lap, Hermione took one frightened look at Ron’s face, did not respond and hurried back to her dormitory. She did not saw Harry in Hogsmeade, so she did not say anything to Professor McGonagall.
The fourth incident was when Hermione told Harry about the failed appeal on Buckbeak’s case. Out of the blue, Ron offered his personal help. He said “I’ll help.” Ron did not include Harry (and later we read that Harry did not have time to help Ron doing it anyway). Hermione’s reaction was shocking. She said:
| QUOTE |
“Oh, Ron!” Hermione flung her arms around Ron’s neck and broke down completely. Ron, looking quite terrified, patted her very awkwardly on the top of the head. Finally, Hermione drew away. “Ron, I’m really, really sorry about Scabbers…,” she sobbed. (POA p. 292) |
It’s unusual for an author, especially a female author who values her female character highly, to allow her character to degrade herself like what Hermione did, unless for a very important reason. Without shame Hermione throw herself to Ron, losing all her pride by broke down completely on his shoulder, and apologized for something she did not believe was her fault. Basically she announced her capitulation on Ron’s demand voluntarily, without any proofs for or against her case. It was a strong show of emotion from Hermione. She opened up the feeling that was hidden up to then. Hermione realized her special affection to Ron. The separation and the possibility not to see Ron again should he be killed by Sirius, have brought her to this conclusion. Hermione realized she loves Ron more than as a friend. Jo Rowling used this extreme action to show this without having Hermione to say anything verbally about it.
Through the contrast of the first and second case, Jo Rowling wants to show that Hermione has special affection to Ron that she did not have for Harry. When Harry was nearly killed, Hermione did not respond that badly. When Harry was angry and separated himself from her, Hermione did not show any emotion like with Ron. Thus, Hermione clearly only showed non-platonic affection to Ron.
Additional actions of Hermione on the subsequent day showed an explosion of the long hidden emotion. She slapped Draco and walked out of Professor Trelawney’s class, where she started to sit down next to Ron again after a long period of separation. Ron noticed that Hermione behave very differently on that day.
| QUOTE |
"Some day Hermione's having, eh?" Ron muttered to Harry, looking awed. (POA p.299) |
2. When did Ron realize that he has non-platonic feeling for Hermione?
My assumption is in the fourth year at Hogwarts during the Yule Ball.
It’s a very famous part, so some may feel redundancy to tell it in details. In short, Ron suddenly showed a very clear sign of jealousy. He was jealous at Viktor Krum, his Quidditch idol, for asking Hermione out for the Ball.
Jo Rowling showed the steps which Ron took to realize his feeling for Hermione. Knowing that Neville has asked Hermione for the Ball, he realized that Hermione is “a girl.” Ron cannot entirely be blamed for the “misconception”, because Hermione was not usually grouped herself with other girls. We remember in POA, when all students were ordered to sleep in sleeping bags in the Great Hall, Hermione chose to sleep next to Ron, instead with other girls.
When Hermione was not available anymore for him as a partner for the Ball, at first Ron didn’t think it’s a serious matter. He never regarded Neville Longbottom to be a worthy competitor. He didn’t see anyone else at Hogwarts to have any interest to Hermione. Besides, Hermione sat next to him in every class they took together, an obvious fact for most students at Hogwarts. As Hermione refused to let him know whom she was going out with, Ron became worried. He kept asking her to no avail. At the start of Yule Ball, he asked anyone where Hermione was.
As soon as Ron saw Hermione was with Viktor, he started to be unhappy. In contrary to Harry’s amazement to see Hermione with a new-look, Ron did not seem to fail to acknowledge her. Instead, he tried to ignore her and then looked at her with “narrowed eyes”. Ron started to realize that he may lose Hermione forever. Ron knew he was no match to Viktor Krum, Dumstrang’s champion, Bulgaria’s Quidditch World Cup Team’s great Seeker, his own hero.
However, Ron didn’t plan to give up without a fight. He tried to paint bad portrayal of Viktor Krum to Hermione, belittling him by calling him “Vicky”, calling him “an enemy” who tried to jinx Harry as his competitor for Triwizard Championship.
Hermione was shocked to see Ron’s reaction. She might not expect Ron to show his feeling to her that soon (after just realizing her as a girl a short while earlier). But being an exceptionally intelligent girl, she did not fail to see the reason behind his behaviour. In her anger for being accused as a traitor against Harry, she blurted her challenge or invitation to Ron to ask her first the next time there is a ball. Harry acknowledge that Hermione touch the right spot. Ron has opened up his non-platonic feeling towards Hermione. At that moment, Ron realized that he loves Hermione more than as a friend.
IMO.
What do you think to be the life changing moments for H/Hr?
I've come across a very interesting quote of JK Rowlings that shocked me to here and completely settles this dipute in my mind of who will end up together...and here it is-
i was looking on 'The Leaky Cauldron' and i found a section entitled "JK Quotes" and one of them says this:
On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink."
i think she is "nudging and winking" about none other than Ronald Weasley
what are your thoughts?
has this been discussed?
i was looking on 'The Leaky Cauldron' and i found a section entitled "JK Quotes" and one of them says this:
On whether Harry and his friend Hermione will have a date when they get older: "No, but I won't answer for anyone else - nudge, nudge, wink, wink."
i think she is "nudging and winking" about none other than Ronald Weasley
what are your thoughts?
has this been discussed?
Yes, it has. To death, actually. So no, please don't start that whole thing up again. Muggleview made a great post...nice starting point for a new debate so please take it from there.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Whatever was Going On in Goblet is Gone
Here is a rather long and somewhat editorial like post. Enjoy!
This post is concerning the "Ron doesnt realize it yet" quote. So, here it is:
Here is a rather long and somewhat editorial like post. Enjoy!
This post is concerning the "Ron doesnt realize it yet" quote. So, here it is:
| QUOTE |
| sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? jkrowling_bn: yes, something's 'going on'... jkrowling_bn: but Ron doesn't realise it yet... jkrowling_bn: typical boy |
So, what we know from that is that there is something going on between Ron and Hermione in the latter half of Goblet of Fire, but Ron is either unaware of exactly what is going on, or is unaware that anything at all is going on. I choose the second option, because from the way the question is worded, that would be more accurate. The question is exclusively about Ron and Hermione, and Ron is unaware of the situation, implying that Hermione is aware of it. We, the readers, still don’t know what is going on. This is an unknown situation, because she did put ‘going on’ in quotes, and the single quotes generally indicate that the speaker is not using a traditional/given definition of the specified word or phrase.
OK, so what we have is some unknown situation between Ron and Hermione, with Hermione being the only one aware of the situation.
Now, it is entirely possible that what is going on is something romantic…however, the use of the quotes could certainly indicate that she was using the phrase differently than the person who asked the question. But, since this is the love thread, I will continue with the assumption that the “goings on” were somewhat romantic in nature. Let it be said though, that I think what was going on could have been that their friendship was damaged by the Yule Brawl, or just that they are generally bickering more than usual.
So…what’s going on? Well, the conventional wisdom among R/Hr shippers and even some H/Hr shippers is that by the end of Goblet of Fire, Ron has a crush on Hermione. But, when taken in conjunction with this quote, he also then must be unaware (read: no yule ball epiphany) of his own feelings for her, and Hermione is most likely aware of his feelings for her. This puts us shippers on the shaky shore of purley subconcious love. I am willing to admit that he could love her and not realise it, and maybe even that this could prompt jealousy, but I think this definately means that the yule ball is not what made him realize he liked her.
[INDENT]Side Note: I do not think that Hermione was aware of his feelings as of the Yule Brawl. He had consistently demonstrated leading up to the Yule Ball that he did not think of her as choice date material. In fact, he was unaware that she was even a girl in the girly sense of the word. So why would she think he liked her? Therefore, I think her comment about asking her next time there is a ball comes at a time where she cannot possibly realize Ron may have started developing feelings for her (especially since he probably only started developing those feelings a few hours prior - it can‘t be that he just realized his feelings because JKR says he still hasn’t at the end of GoF). I think she became aware of his feelings when she sat on her own and reflected on the Yule Ball, as well as over the course of other events when he displayed some jealousy towards Viktor.[/INDENT]
So…what’s going on (as of GoF) is that Ron has unrealized feelings for Hermione, and she knows it.
Is anything else going on? Does Hermione reciprocate? Well, I say the answer is no. First, if she did reciprocate them, and she also knew Ron liked her (subconciously), why would she not just tell Ron how she felt? Then Ron would all at once realize his feelings and return her affection. However, perhaps she was too shy to admit her feelings when Ron was still unaware of the situation…but…
Within GoF, I think, there are some clues. While Viktor is actually at the school, I don’t think Hermione is using him any more than he is using her. She clearly is not as interested in him as he is in her, but she doesn’t act like she is interested, either. So no ploys to extract Ron’s jealousy in GoF. Also, while it is true that fights were had about Ron’s chauvinism before the Yule Ball, Harry was right there with him. Ron and Hermione simply have more of a tendency to yell at one another about these things. Hermione was upset at Harry’s insistence on beauty over brains as well…just look at her reaction to his reaction to the veela.
Lastly, the icing on the cake is the departing scene in GoF. By this time, Hermione is beginning to realize that Ron may have feelings for her. So what does she do? She kisses Harry. For me, that kiss sends a definite message to Ron: I like Harry, back off.
Now, let’s look to OotP, where Ron makes a deliberate romantic gesture towards Hermione. It is reasonable to assume then, that Ron must have finally realized his feelings (it would be hard to be deliberate otherwise). What is Hermione’s reaction to Ron’s deliberate gesture? She reiterates her preference for Harry. She gushes over his gift, while having a neutral/negative response to Ron’s. Again, if she liked him back, especially now that he does something to indicate he has realized he likes her, she would reciprocate the gesture.
The last thing to notice about OotP is the cooling of the tension between Ron and Hermione towards the second half of the book. Any extremely close male/female relationship has the potential to develop into something romantic, and almost all relationships of this type have some connotations that are not platonic. Ergo, Ron and Hermione bicker about each other’s love lives, because there is a small amount of romantic tension between them. However, people’s lives change when they decide to commit to one person for the time being (or the rest of their lives). Then, they begin to consciously make an effort to keep all other male-female relationships platonic. Eventually this manifests itself as not making a whole lot of new close friends of the opposite sex. Ron and Hermione’s relationship moving away from the pattern of bickering, and moving to a less passionate form of interacting could be seen as the “platonification” (<-- not a real word) of their relationship. Why? Because Hermione is committed to maintaining the trio, rather than a pairing (more on this later) or it could be because both parties (R and Hr) have admitted that Hermione has feelings for Harry, so they need to cool it. I think it is possible they may have talked about their relationship off screen…Hermione knew Ron liked her, and once he figured it out and acted, they had to talk. The “unusual” comment about the perfume seems inadequate - I think they talked about it sometime around that event, off screen. They talked, she let him down easy…she likes Harry; sorry, Ron. This is when the noticeable change in their relationship occurred. Ron eventually got over it, and they settled into a nice platonic mode of relating to each other, both more focused on Harry than each other (because he needed their help, not because of romance). This would also mean that Hermione kissing Ron would fall after this talk, so he would not misread it - or perhaps that is why he was so confused by it - he thought she liked Harry (she does
).--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a somewhat unrelated note, I have a couple comments about name order, and the inclusion of Ron/Harry/Hermione when they are absent. First of all, I do not think the name order (Harry, Ron, and Hermione) is very significant at all, shipping wise. I think it shows that she created Harry, the main character, gave him a best friend, and then added another best friend (and actually, the logical train of thought would be to create a hero, his best friend, and his love interest, in that order - her quotes about how she dreamed up Harry support this somewhat). Also, she does use the “oxford comma” - the comma after Ron’s name. This comma is unnecessary - “Harry, Ron and Hermione” would be grammatically correct also. That comma serves to separate each name from the others, so no two names form a pair.
As for the inclusion of Ron when Hermione and Harry are talking to Hagrid about Grawp, I think this shows that Hermione is still in “trio mode.” This goes for any other instance where the absent trio member is mentioned. I think these instances are not shippy, but actually show that the one speaking (and JKR) has a commitment to maintaining the trio’s friendship regardless of what happens when two of them pair off (as they inevitably will).
I believe Jo Rowling uses the quotes to show and emphasize that she knows what "sammyohyeah" asked. It's pointing to the realization of Hermione being a girl by Ron, as a "typical boy."
Jo Rowling wrote the conversation in Chapter 22 and 23 of GOF specifically between Ron and Hermione. Harry was not included. Even more clearer when Harry asked Parvati for possible Ron's date, Parvati asked back about "Hermione Granger" (using full name) to Harry, as if rebuking Harry for not seeing how Hermione has been seeing Ron. Thus, again here: girls realize it sooner than "typical boys".
The argument about Ron didn't realize that Hermione likes Harry is not for a "typical boy". A boy just realized a girl appeared before him and then realized that she was for his best friend? That's not typical at all. The lack of Ron's jealousy at Harry in GOF is the biggest proof that Ron didn't see any potential Harry with Hermione at all. Harry's denial as Hermione's boyfriend in front of the Weasleys is something Harry will not easy to turn back without much pain. Even the kiss doesn't cause question mark at all. This could be explained if we linked the aftermath of the goodbye in GOF with the fact that Hermione was going to spend the whole summer with Ron in the beginning of OOP. So the kiss is a part of female Weasley goodbye styles as Mrs. Weasley demonstrated repeatedly.
The absence of doubt is definitely supported by Hermione's act as well. She has been mentioning Ron when she was alone with Harry. She has been willing to be with Ron alone without Harry, even outside Prefect Duties.
Jo Rowling wrote the conversation in Chapter 22 and 23 of GOF specifically between Ron and Hermione. Harry was not included. Even more clearer when Harry asked Parvati for possible Ron's date, Parvati asked back about "Hermione Granger" (using full name) to Harry, as if rebuking Harry for not seeing how Hermione has been seeing Ron. Thus, again here: girls realize it sooner than "typical boys".
The argument about Ron didn't realize that Hermione likes Harry is not for a "typical boy". A boy just realized a girl appeared before him and then realized that she was for his best friend? That's not typical at all. The lack of Ron's jealousy at Harry in GOF is the biggest proof that Ron didn't see any potential Harry with Hermione at all. Harry's denial as Hermione's boyfriend in front of the Weasleys is something Harry will not easy to turn back without much pain. Even the kiss doesn't cause question mark at all. This could be explained if we linked the aftermath of the goodbye in GOF with the fact that Hermione was going to spend the whole summer with Ron in the beginning of OOP. So the kiss is a part of female Weasley goodbye styles as Mrs. Weasley demonstrated repeatedly.
The absence of doubt is definitely supported by Hermione's act as well. She has been mentioning Ron when she was alone with Harry. She has been willing to be with Ron alone without Harry, even outside Prefect Duties.
| QUOTE (valeriehall343) |
Hermione was upset at Harry’s insistence on beauty over brains as well…just look at her reaction to his reaction to the veela. |
Hermione's reaction to the veela was directed to Ron. She was clearly rounding on Ron alone. There is never stated in the canon that "Hermione was upset at Harry's insistence on beauty over brains".
| QUOTE (valeriehall343) |
Now, let’s look to OotP, where Ron makes a deliberate romantic gesture towards Hermione. It is reasonable to assume then, that Ron must have finally realized his feelings (it would be hard to be deliberate otherwise). |
That's a good point to show that what Ron is late to realize is romantic gesture. Now we agree on what's "going on".
Hermione's reaction to Ron's gift is consistent with the way both of them tried not to show their feeling in front of Harry. I kept admiring the choice of words Jo Rowling used in Ron and Hermione's conversation about the gift:
| QUOTE |
"...And that perfume's really unusual, Ron." "No problem," said Ron. "Who's that for, anyway?" he added, nodding at the neatly wrapped present she was carrying. (OOP Ch 23) |
Harry didn't say a thing about Hermione's elaborate praise to his gift, but Ron replied "No problem" for "really unusual"? It seems that Ron and Hermione were talking in codes here. Hermione would want to make sure Ron's really sending her the perfume. Ron's short reply confirms it. That's enough information in front of Harry. Ron and Hermione could have talked more about it when Harry is not present. We don't know because Harry is not present and the two are not always telling Harry what they are talking behind his back. But since then, the tension between Ron and Hermione cools off towards the second half of the book, but the non-verbal communication increases, showing a higher level of relationships than before.
| QUOTE (valeriehall343) |
Because Hermione is committed to maintaining the trio, rather than a pairing (more on this later) or it could be because both parties (R and Hr) have admitted that Hermione has feelings for Harry, so they need to cool it. |
Nice try, but there are many contradictions in this "explanation". Hermione is more committed to the trio than Harry himself? R and Hr admitted that Hermione has feelings for Harry? Those are just opinions, not canon-based.
Suddenly, Hermione kisses Ron and not Harry. She was concerned more about Ron's missing than Harry's banning. She was linking her happiness to Ron's Quidditch ability. She kept checking whether Ron saved any goal yet. Those are canon-based and all pointing to Hermione's attention to Ron!
| QUOTE (valeriehall343) |
First of all, I do not think the name order (Harry, Ron, and Hermione) is very significant at all, shipping wise. I think it shows that she created Harry, the main character, gave him a best friend, and then added another best friend (and actually, the logical train of thought would be to create a hero, his best friend, and his love interest, in that order - her quotes about how she dreamed up Harry support this somewhat). Also, she does use the “oxford comma” - the comma after Ron’s name. This comma is unnecessary - “Harry, Ron and Hermione” would be grammatically correct also. That comma serves to separate each name from the others, so no two names form a pair. |
Several things are certain: Harry, Hermione and Ron is hardly used. Hermione seldom sits between Harry and Ron. Usually Hermione and Harry sit on each side of Ron. Thus, "Harry, Ron and Hermione" denotes position as well. "Ron and Hermione" has become like a trademark in OOP. There is no "Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger" anymore. It's "Ron and Hermione" and then we are introduced to the Weasleys as Ron's family. The way it was presented in the first 11 chapters new readers would have thought Hermione is a Weasley. Not until chapter 12 these reades will know that Hermione's maiden name is Granger.
And in Chapter 23, Jo and her editors decided to group Hermione with the Weasleys not once, but twice. So, there is more than just placing Ron and Hermione in close proximity, whereas Harry and Hermione are separated by Ron.
| QUOTE (valeriehall343) |
As for the inclusion of Ron when Hermione and Harry are talking to Hagrid about Grawp, I think this shows that Hermione is still in “trio mode.” This goes for any other instance where the absent trio member is mentioned. I think these instances are not shippy, but actually show that the one speaking (and JKR) has a commitment to maintaining the trio’s friendship regardless of what happens when two of them pair off (as they inevitably will). |
There is a significant difference between Jo Rowling wrote them as "Harry, Ron and Hermione", and Hermione said "Harry and Ron and me". The redundant "and" is maintained in both UK and US editions. The more striking point is how Ron is included inbetween Harry and Hermione. An alternative would be "Harry and me, and Ron, if he agrees" which is consistent to Hagrid's statement. The fact that Hermione made decision on behalf of Ron apprehensively can be linked to the conversation later where Hermione appealed to Ron to make a decision for them about this promise. With those competent editors, any glaring "grammatical errors" should be intentional.
Hermione is such a complacated girl, I just love her, first of all before I say anything, beautiful post Muggy about when R/Hr noticed their feelings.
I agree how Hermione reacted to him, humbling herself, when Hermione, bless her, doesn't know who to correct herself, because she's never had too, but does for Ron. She's never admitted she was wrong to Harry or ever stops meddling in his life when it so clearly annoys him or apalogizes for it.
And also when she got the perfume and called it unusal, he acted like he didn't mind her reaction at all, which always made me wonder, but I agree with what you said, it's like a code.
To be spefic about Hermione being annoyed at the boys for staring at the veela. Ron was staring at them, she made a tutting nosie and graped Harry to keep him from jumping off the top box and said, "Honestly!". Now I just read that part, so I know what I read, and I don't know what you all thought when you read that but to me it's clear. She was annoyed, not jealous, at both of them. I know I get mad when my boy friends act in a "guy" like way when it concerns the girls. Or when they say something gross or stupid, it's the same thing. I see no romance here, just noting the changes they're all going through ans commenting on they're new roles as young adults.
valeriehall343, I think a point you were trying to make without typing the words was, if by GoF they know they like eachother, as stated by Muggy beautifully, why aren't they together already.
Muggy will tell you he thinks they already are, which he has said many times. Do I think they're together yet? No, but I will answer you technilly unasked question.
I think Ron doesn't think Hermione could like him that way, thinking she's to smart, or pretty or whatever for him, and I think he's scared to death that when he puts it out there that he likes her and if she says "Sorry Ron, but I don't like you like that." It will make things bad and tense when they should be helping everyone fight the sacond war, or if they do get together and then brake up he might lose her forever altogether, I mean they don't have much in common. That's what I believe. I find to many people don't really understand Ron at all.
I agree how Hermione reacted to him, humbling herself, when Hermione, bless her, doesn't know who to correct herself, because she's never had too, but does for Ron. She's never admitted she was wrong to Harry or ever stops meddling in his life when it so clearly annoys him or apalogizes for it.
And also when she got the perfume and called it unusal, he acted like he didn't mind her reaction at all, which always made me wonder, but I agree with what you said, it's like a code.
To be spefic about Hermione being annoyed at the boys for staring at the veela. Ron was staring at them, she made a tutting nosie and graped Harry to keep him from jumping off the top box and said, "Honestly!". Now I just read that part, so I know what I read, and I don't know what you all thought when you read that but to me it's clear. She was annoyed, not jealous, at both of them. I know I get mad when my boy friends act in a "guy" like way when it concerns the girls. Or when they say something gross or stupid, it's the same thing. I see no romance here, just noting the changes they're all going through ans commenting on they're new roles as young adults.
valeriehall343, I think a point you were trying to make without typing the words was, if by GoF they know they like eachother, as stated by Muggy beautifully, why aren't they together already.
Muggy will tell you he thinks they already are, which he has said many times. Do I think they're together yet? No, but I will answer you technilly unasked question.
I think Ron doesn't think Hermione could like him that way, thinking she's to smart, or pretty or whatever for him, and I think he's scared to death that when he puts it out there that he likes her and if she says "Sorry Ron, but I don't like you like that." It will make things bad and tense when they should be helping everyone fight the sacond war, or if they do get together and then brake up he might lose her forever altogether, I mean they don't have much in common. That's what I believe. I find to many people don't really understand Ron at all.
Now I was all for a Harry and Ginny hook up UNTIL I read a theory on Harry and Hermione. It sort of swayed my opinion, and it has left me very curious about Hermione's feelings for Harry.
I don't really think Harry has any romantic feelings for Hermione, but I think that Hermione does have feelings for Harry. And it's pretty obvious. She worries about him constantly, and is always giving him advice. In OotP, there is a conversation after Harry kisses Cho in the Room of Requirement. This convo, if you read it carefully, and really read what Hermione says, will leave you stunned at the least about the evidence shown here that Hermione may be a bit jealous of Cho.
I know there has been evidence (even in the movies) for Hr/R, but to me that shows that obvious adolescent confusion that takes place around their age. Maybe Hermione will have some choices to make in the next book, and maybe they won't be easy.
I don't really think Harry has any romantic feelings for Hermione, but I think that Hermione does have feelings for Harry. And it's pretty obvious. She worries about him constantly, and is always giving him advice. In OotP, there is a conversation after Harry kisses Cho in the Room of Requirement. This convo, if you read it carefully, and really read what Hermione says, will leave you stunned at the least about the evidence shown here that Hermione may be a bit jealous of Cho.
I know there has been evidence (even in the movies) for Hr/R, but to me that shows that obvious adolescent confusion that takes place around their age. Maybe Hermione will have some choices to make in the next book, and maybe they won't be easy.
Why the debate? Its obvious that Hermione is going to fall (or maybe she is already?) in love with Ron. She may have feelings for Harry, but these are only feelings that friends share? Have you never been worried about a friend? or have you never felt jealous if a friend is going off with a boyfriend/girlfriend and you think it may cause more harm than good? Its Ron and Hermione all the way.
Who is always on Hermione’s mind?
These are seven moments throughout the OOP, when Hermione had a chance to speak to Harry alone, while Ron is out-of-sight. Let’s see what she has to say to Harry.
1. Harry arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place (12GP). Mrs. Weasley told him to go upstair to meet Ron and Hermione. Right after Harry opened the door of the bedroom, Hermione hugged him and shouted:
These are seven moments throughout the OOP, when Hermione had a chance to speak to Harry alone, while Ron is out-of-sight. Let’s see what she has to say to Harry.
1. Harry arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place (12GP). Mrs. Weasley told him to go upstair to meet Ron and Hermione. Right after Harry opened the door of the bedroom, Hermione hugged him and shouted:
| QUOTE |
| “HARRY! Ron, he’s here, Harry’s here! We didn’t hear you arrive!...” (OOP Ch 4 p. 62) |
First thing after calling Harry, Hermione immediately called for Ron. She wanted to share the joy of seeing Harry with Ron, not just for herself.
2. After the disastrous first Quidditch practice for Ron, Ron was still very upset with the training, has angrily stomped off to the staircase to the boy’s dormitories and vanished from sight.
| QUOTE |
| Hermione turned to Harry. “Was he (Ron) lousy?” “No,” said Harry loyally. Hermione raised her eyebrows. “Well, I suppose he could’ve played better,” Harry muttered, “but it was only the first training session, like you said….” (OOP Ch 14, p. 294) |
Hermione only wanted to speak about Ron’s performance.
3. After the Quidditch game, in which Harry, Fred and George were banned, the team gathered in the common room, except for Ron. They were upset with the unfairness of Professor Umbridge.
| QUOTE |
| Fred and George sloped off to bed some time later, glowering at everyone they passed, and Ginny went not long after that. Only Harry and Hermione were left beside the fire. “Have you seen Ron?” Hermione asked in a low voice (OOP Ch 19 p. 418) |
Harry and Hermione were left alone at a cozy place by the fire. The first time Hermione spoke, immediately she asked for Ron. She didn’t think of consoling Harry for the ban.
4. Hermione came to 12GP for Christmas, but first, she had to lure Harry to come out of Buckbeak’s room. Harry didn’t expect her to come, because Hermione was supposed to go skiing with her parents.
| QUOTE |
| “I know you’re in there,” said Hermione’s voice. “Will you please come out? I want to talk to you.” “What are you doing here?” Harry asked her, pulling open the door, as Buckbeak resumed his scratching at the straw-strewen floor for any fragments of rat he might have dropped. "I thought you were skiing with your mum and dad." "Well, to tell you the truth, skiing's not really my thing," said Hermione. "So I've come for Christmas." There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. "But don't tell Ron that, I told him it's really good because he kept laughing so much. (OOP Ch 23 p. 488) |
Right after saying her reason to give up her skiing plan, her thought was directly on Ron and how to keep him laughing!
5. Ron was in Quidditch practice. While waiting for Ron to come after practice for dinner, Hermione asked Harry about his Valentine’s date with Cho. Hermione helped Harry analyzing the disastrous meeting, and gave Harry some ideas how to speak to Cho, for example by calling Hermione ugly.
| QUOTE |
| "But I don't think you're ugly," said Harry, bemused. Hermione laughed. "Harry, you're worse than Ron....Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall, splattered with mud and looking grumpy. (OOP Ch 26, p. 572) |
Harry gave a compliment to Hermione. Not exactly positive (like, pretty or beautiful), but still a compliment. Hermione accepted happily, but immediately she thought of Ron! For the compliment, she compared Harry to Ron twice (worse and then not worse).
6. During the final Quidditch match, Hagrid insisted Harry and Hermione to come with him to meet Grawp.
Once there, Hagrid made them promise to do something for him, while he was away. Ron was not with them, as he was playing the match of his life. Only Harry and Hermione were there with Hagrid. This is Hermione’s reaction:
| QUOTE |
| “So what is it you want Harry and Ron and me to do?” Hermione asked apprehensively. (OOP Ch 30, p. 692) |
Hermione placed Ron's name how she wants them two to be addressed: "Ron and Hermione". Thus, Harry and (Ron & Hermione).
7. After getting rid of Umbridge and escaping from the Centaurs, Harry and Hermione were alone. Harry wanted to go to London as soon as possible and was angry for every delay of the departure.
| QUOTE |
| “Smart plan,” he spat at Hermione, having to release some of his fury. “Really smart plan. Where do we go from here?” “We need to get back up to the castle (where Ron and the others are),” said Hermione faintly. “By the time we’ve done that, Sirius’ll probably be dead!” said Harry, kicking a nearby tree in temper. (OOP Ch 33 p.759) |
Hermione didn’t think to go to London or Sirius, where Harry wants to go. She wanted to go back to the castle, where Ron and the others were being held by Malfoy and his team.
Consistently throughout the book 5, OOP, from the beginning to the end, whenever Hermione had chances to talk one-on-one with Harry, she never stop mentioning or thinking of Ron. Ron is always on Hermione’s mind. Is there any reason to think otherwise?
Dear, dear Muggy, I think not, but I think we're getting a little to confedent now that HBP is so near. I just have this overwelling feeling that Hermione will get together with one of them (Ron;)). My feelings are rarely wrong.
Lily, I too used to think that way, I did a reverse of you. I don't think Hermione was jealous, I think she was consered for Harry, knowing he liked Cho, and wants to see him happy, didn't think, and rightly so, that they got together over the best of cirumstandtions.
Lily, I too used to think that way, I did a reverse of you. I don't think Hermione was jealous, I think she was consered for Harry, knowing he liked Cho, and wants to see him happy, didn't think, and rightly so, that they got together over the best of cirumstandtions.
Lily, Hermione may also envy Harry-Cho relationship because they have been kissing, whereas her relationship with Ron is still not there yet (not yet kissing), as Ron doesn't think kissing to be romantic.
Jo Rowling has shown us how Hermione reacted when she was jealous at Fleur, Padma and Luna. None of those reactions was seen from Hermione to Cho. On the other hand, Cho was not hostile to Hermione, except for one time when she rebuked Hermione for seemingly doubting Harry's leadership for Dumbledore's Army. Definitely not a jealousy, because Cho is defending her man against possible coup.
Ellen, I got your point
Jo Rowling has shown us how Hermione reacted when she was jealous at Fleur, Padma and Luna. None of those reactions was seen from Hermione to Cho. On the other hand, Cho was not hostile to Hermione, except for one time when she rebuked Hermione for seemingly doubting Harry's leadership for Dumbledore's Army. Definitely not a jealousy, because Cho is defending her man against possible coup.
Ellen, I got your point
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