Okay...here you go...a brand new shiny thread for a nice, clean, moderated, healthy place to debate to your hearts content whether Hermione is most likely to end up with Ron or Harry. I've even attached a new poll for you. All I would ask if that everyone, before posting, please read the following:-

DO:

* Keep your posts clear and concise.

* Be polite at all times.

* Agree to disagree. Accept that you won't agree with everyone, and that others may interpret the books differently to yourself.

* Make your posts a reasonable length. There is no need to quote extensive sections from previous posts.

* Feel free to contact a moderator if you are offended for any reason. That's what we're here for, and we will always take a complaint seriously. You are also welcome to contact us if you have any questions.

DON'T:

* Be rude in your post. Don't flame or insult anyone else.

* Call anyone else names or personally attack anyone.

* State your opinion as fact - it is your opinion. If you disagree with someone else, that's fine, but don't tell them their opinion is wrong.

* Flog a dead horse. In other words, don't keep making the same point over and over. Once you've stated a point, move on. If you wish to continue debating the same point with someone, take it to PM/email.

* Don't use ALL CAPS all over your post. If you want to emphasize something, try the bold or italics button instead; using ALL CAPS is read as shouting online.

* Quote extensive chunks of the Harry Potter books to illustrate a point; it takes up bandwith. If you wish to quote the books, then give the page number and a sentence or two, to indicate the passage to which you're referring.

* Take any debates seriously. We are all on the same side here, joined by our love of Harry Potter. There is no need for anyone to become defensive about their ideas and thoughts. This forum is to share these ideas in an informative, educational and hopefully creative way.

Supporting evidence can be gleaned from interviews with Rowling and people involved in the creation of the books or movies, history, literature (including the Harry Potter books and other works of poetry and prose), theater, psychology, sociology, interviews, dictionaries, thesauruses, studies, polls, or other relevant third-party sources.

If quotations are used, please provide relevant pages (with country and book title) or chapter citations (if applicable).

You are allowed to point out flaws with arguments posited by other posters, and/or make arguments that contradict points made by other posters. You are not allowed to attack the individual doing the posting, or generalize about members of any SHIP, regardless of whether you support that SHIP or not.[/b]

This is a thread for Evidence-based debate and only for R/Hr Vs H/Hr...not Ginny, Luna, Fred, George, Hagrid or Blast ended Skrewts....

No one is right and no one is wrong...only JKR knows the truth so unless you're psychic, remember that you are only expressing an opinion. Evidence means something in the text which supports your opinion.

I don't want to see any two or three word posts here......nice, healthy debates only.......

The first thread has been archived and may be found here. I think all contributors to that old thread could benefit from refreshing themselves with the rules too, so don't think that this is just an information point for newbies.

As you can see, I've done away with the template because no one followed it anyway, but this is still a debate - please only post here if you have subtantially more than one line to say.

Okay...carry on.

Hi! Wow, I'm first person on this thread to post.

Anyway, I know that this is a debate, and thus needs evidence for the discussion, but, I would like to add a suggestion in creating a list of arguments for ships on both sides of the debate in order for new people to pick up on the points of the veterans without going back to the original (and reading 37 pages) to understand the discussion. This list should be updated so people can get sense of where the debate is heading and what has already been discussed.

Some evidence I can think of on the top of my head:
R/Hr:
-The exchange between Ron and Hermione after Harry kisses Cho in OOTP.
-The Yule Ball.
-The reactions between the characters in the movies. Mostly PoA.

H/Hr:
-The "Red Herring" (trying to make the reader believe one thing while the author does another thing) arguement.
-The connections between Harry and Hermione.
-The constant arguments between Ron and Hermione, which by opinion of H/Hr, would destroy the relationship.

O.K. mods, I know I broke the rule by not debating with evidence (or not debating at all), so unleash your holy wrath on me. (Just don't include the screaming, brain-eating, flying monkeys.)

Wishing a good debate, great evidence, respectful tolerance of everyone's ship, and comedic relief between posts,
Soumnek

Nice! Clean thread.

Allow me to start with this topic: Has anyone notice that in naming the trio, Jo Rowling wrote overwhelmingly as: Harry, Ron and Hermione; (other combinations: Ron, Harry and Hermione, or Harry, Hermione and Ron, can be counted by hands)

How are they sitting in the classroom?
Recently I saw the promotional picture of the trio in the classroom in Goblet of Fire.
It showed from left to right: Hermione, Ron, Harry. Hermione leaned towards Ron to talk to Harry. It reminded me of the following quote in OOP:

Awesome!

I saw some additions to the rules that may have been added just for me nudge. Heh heh, I've gotten better haven't I?

Those are excellent points, muggleview. They are most often listed as Harry, Ron and Hermione. Infact, I believe we all list them that way most of the time. (Except for those people who purposefully go out of their way to list them differently. Such as people who always put the female first in the G/N, L/H, Hr/R, etc.)

The same principle applies to listing the members of the Weasley family.

• Arthur
• Molly
• Bill
• Charlie
• Percy
• Fred and George
• Ron
• Ginny

Fred and George are inseperable in peoples minds. Sometimes when people list them they do not even write their names, but simply say "the Twins."

This follows my balancing analogy as well. Ron and Hermione balance Harry. He is at the pinacle, they each support him from different sides. If he were to lean too far toward either of them, he would topple. However, if they were to form an even tighter bond, it would only strengthen the base which supports him.

In my mind, the largest obstacle in the path of H/Hr is not even that Harry has not shown any romantic interest in Hermione (or any girl but Cho, as yet) but that Ron has obviously developed feelings for Hermione.

Among good friends, when one of the friends likes a girl, the other friend never even considers forming a relationship with them. There are exceptions, but generally that is when both friends have a crush, but one makes it known before the other. That is not the case here. Harry has only been interested in Cho. As Hermione is "taken" by his best friend, I do not think he will ever view Hermione in that light.

Girls do this even more than boys. They will actually decide who gets who, and if the boy ends up liking someone other than the one who "claimed" him, then he is in for a frustrating, fruitless time. (This post by Asleigh on the "What do you look like?" board illustrates my point. lol Apparently we've all been divied up (sometimes without our knowledge, lol)

That is only from my personal experience, however. Though, I'm quite certain it is true. It's happened on more than one occassion that I've liked a girl, but one of her friends liked me, so she would not give me the time of day for months until her friend said it was all right.
Which is why I do not believe Hermione has formed any feelings for Harry. She has known that Ginny had a crush on him from the beginning, and Ginny is one of Hermione's few female friends. Even before Ginny began to play a larger role in the plot, Hermione would often be chatting with Ginny while Harry and Ron were doing something together, such as playing Wizard Chess, or Exploding Snap.

To be completely honest, with guys the inverse is occassionally true. If one of our friends starts liking a girl, we begin looking at that girl in a new light and often find ourselves attracted to them, unless we already have a love interest. Now that Harry is over Cho, he may begin to view Hermione in this way, simply because Ron does.

To me, this is not likely. Too much time has passed. I think Ron will make some form of overt effort to show Hermione his feelings. Flowers, candy, candlelit pumkin pasties, etc. He's been harboring these feelings for nearly two years now, and I believe he finally understands what they are around the middle of OotP, sometime before Christmas. That is when he began to show the occasional, startling sign of a newfound maturity.

I would quote passages, but it is more an overall feeling. You would have to read the whole book again to pick up on it. For instance, on the first days of term, he is ordering the first years about calling them "titchy midgets." Later he is refering to his prefect duties in some annoyance, and even disparages the first years again. "There's no way we were that obnoxious!" As time goes on, he begins to fit the mold of the prefect. He takes charge at the Hogshead, shouting down Zacharias Smith (though, that may have been prompted by his "Weasel" comment.) He later does the same sort of thing at one of the meetings.

Then, of course, there is the famous and rather oft pointed out (by me, since no one has bothered to argue the point ) scene where Hermione is trying to convince Harry not to break into Umbridge's office. Harry notes that Ron "appeared determined to remain silent on the subject." Something that is very out of character for him. Generally he plays Devil's Advocate for Hermione's urging caution. Most of their arguments through the books have stemmed from one of them encouraging Harry to one course of action, and the other disagreeing.

Perhaps Ron agreed with her on this point, perhaps not. What is worth noting are his words when he finally does speak. "Give it a rest, Hermione. He can make up his own mind." Or words to that effect. Not said in his usual contemptuous, sarcastic tones, garaunteed to start an argument, but in a soft, gentle manner. Afterwhich Hermione remains quiet through the rest of the class until they are dismissed and they begin to gather their things to leave the classroom, when she offers one more plea. "'Harry, please!' she said weakly."

Not only has he begun to show maturity, but Ron has begun to quell Hermione in exactly the same fashion that Mr. Weasley uses to quell Mrs. Weasley, which can be found in the chapter in which Sirius wants to tell Harry what Voldemort has been up to, and Mrs. Weasley objects.

Anyway, as those points were not in Soumnek's lists, I thought I'd reiterate them. For some reason, they never recieve a response from H/Hr's

Which reminds me, I'll have to get Selam to come on here. She's a brilliant H/Hr who visits the Theory boards, but I've never seen her on the Forums.

Till next time then

LLtWK! Enjoy your posting very much. To be fair, boys and girls have the same attitudes. Mostly male or female friends I knowl followed the rule: if two persons already agree to go together, don't try to interfere. However, regrets can happen and depends on the personality, it may or may not cause problems.

I see that Harry is not the type of person who try to get everything for himself. He restrained himself when Cho chose Cedric. Probably because he did not have much interaction with Cho yet. Harry still has to win her heart.
Ron is different. Hermione has been sitting next to him since year 1, sharing some private time together. Hermione may indicate that their affections are mutual, with the hug and chess games, for example. Ron feels Hermione is his to lose. That's why he reacted badly against Viktor.
Anyway, it points out again that R/Hr is more likely to happen than H/Hr, because:
- Ron and Hermione have shown mutual affection.
- Up to now Harry does not show interest in Hermione.
- Harry will not interfere.

Thanks, Soumnek, for the summary. I am looking forward for a good discussion, too.

I have posted the following about Hermione's kiss to Ron.

Please comment.

I think that Ron an Hermione will hook up but first Harry and Hermione have to. But in the end Harry will be alone. I personally think that from all that Harry has been through he wont have enough of who he once was to love enough to get married. though it sounds harsh and sad i think it will happen.

Plausible middle ground, but it will be a big hiccups in the story:
- Hermione has to switch her feelings from Ron to Harry and back to Ron again in 2 years.
- Harry has to develop feelings for Hermione and let go after 2 years (his crush to Cho lasted 3 years).
- Ron would be mad at Harry for 2 years.

So, it's possible (until Jo said no), but difficult to build a smooth storyline with it.

Well Jk Rowling herself stated that Ron and Hermoine will get togeather besides there was a pick added to jk site that showed Harry and looked like a C OR A G in the pic

Remus, are you referring to the Bloomsbury Valentine picture with Harry, a heart and a partly covered curved letter?
I believe the letter was a "?" (question mark), not "C" or "G". It's just to tease the readers.

However, there is a picture drawn by Mary Grandpre for standee of HBP, where Dumbledore and Harry looking at the pensieve, a snake mark curling around the pensive, at the bottom left of the pensieve, Ron and Hermione together looking up, and at the bottom right, Ginny alone looking up. I couldn't find a link in Veritaserum.
If the picture indeed reflects the content of HBP, Ron and Hermione are a couple!

i hope and really think hr and r will get together! look at all the evidence! and i see no hr/h shippers arround here!

Well, if you come to that... there are more evidences to Harry/Hermione than Ron/Hermione and I would be glad to proof it.... But you have to wait until tomorrow.

Yeah, they did kind of sound like a couple in OotP. But I don't think they notice it yet. Man, wont it be strange when they finally do find out how they feel about each other and they do become a couple?... Whoa! That last line made me sound like... well, I sounded almost childish. But sometimes I can't help but express my happiness. Even if it is for fictional characters. I agree with you, muggleview. H/Hr shippers may not be around now, but... they will come eventually. What drives me nuts, though, is when they (H/Hr shippers) try and give evidence about how Harry will end up with Hermione. Oh, there was this editorial a looooong time ago, I think from MuggleNet where the writer was bashing on the H/Hr shippers for saying that when Harry pulled Hermione away from being squashed by Grawp, it was because he loved her and that he wouldn't have done that if he didn't love her. Ahg, I can't find it. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please, tell me. I loved it.

There are definitely plenty of H/Hr's around - me, Ash and Zyra for a start, so don't go resting on your laurels. Enjoy the peace while you've got it because let me tell you I've found a whole head of stuff to back up my opinions in both PoA and GoF that I'll be posting just as soon as my exams finish and I have my life back again...( )

Now, Ash has already had to step into this thread to warn about off topicness - this makes two warnings. I'm going to be very..not happy...if I see anymore. I think there are plenty of warnings and notices around the place regarding this thread so if you don't want to debate, or are only saying things like 'JK said that R/Hr are going to get together' (which she hasn't, BTW...I think a lot of people are misunderstanding her remarks or twisting them to suit their own ends - come on, do you seriously think she would do anything to stop the debates when she enjoys them? When have you ever known her to give anything away?) then the mods will just be hitting delete because we're tired or repeating ourselves, not to mention it fills this thread with non-debate related posts - a complete waste of bandwidth.

This place is meant to be a haven for intelligent, evidence based debate, as Ash said. If you just want to make comments, then go do it in the appropriate thread - either R/Hr only or H/Hr only.

The thing that I find mostly about H/hr evidence is it has to be explained in several paragraphs for the person to see it. Take 'A Heart Once Given' By Lisa. She went on and on in paragraphs about what a certain qoute meant. I think once someone does that it gets confusing to understand. There were many times where I got lost and wasn't sure what she was talking about. Evidence should be right out there in front of you, not having to be dug through to find. I guess that's why I find R/hr evidence more convincing.

I could easily qoute part of the Yule Ball, and you'll know I'm talking about Ron's jealousy, but if I were to qoute certain excerpts from Lisa editorial, I think the people who didn't read it wouldn't know how it was considered as evidence.

Anyway, I ship R/hr. (but that's pretty self explanatory by now )

I should probably add in, that no, I don't hate H/hr and probably won't die of shock and horror if they get together. I think it's cute actually. I just prefer R/hr. (which really isn't my favorite ship J/L is) And I love to argue, so I thought I'd come over here. Well, that's me, feel free to contradict my theories...or try to.

I agree with Kipsy, that if H/Hr happens it will not stop my heart. The reason why I got into this is Jo's challenge that we should have known by now. Yes, the same way I found clues when reread "Emma", I found clues when reread HP series from Book 1.
In Book 1, Hermione greeted Ron first. And she took notice on the dirt on Ron's nose. There should be something in Ron to get attention of the wonder boy, Harry Potter, and the greatest witch-in-the-making, Hermione Granger, on the same day. Well, he's a humble, cheerful, likable, red-haired wizard with full of enthousiasm for his Hogwarts chance (following up his brothers footsteps).
In Book 2, Ron showed his affection to Hermione and they started communicating more. Harry started to notice how comfortable they were without him (when he was dismissed from hospital wing after the regrowth of his arm). Hermione sat on Ron's bed as a foreshadowing of her choice. We noted that Harry's sole thought of Hermione's Petrified condition was related to his own fear of returning to Dursleys. This differs Harry from Ron, who kindly thought of how to spare Hermione being frantic to be awaken only 3 days before exams.
In Book 3, Hermione showed her affection to Ron, in a contrasting separation to either Harry or Ron. She hurt more in her separation with Ron, and had to apologize for something she had not done (untypical of Hermione) to show how relieved she was to have Ron back (as a friend).
In Book 4, both Ron and Hermione showed jealousy of competitions.
(enough said)
In Book 5, Ron and Hermione started to stay together, under one roof, comfortably. They started to understand each other's mind, and behaved more or less as a couple, without showing much of romantic gesture, at least not in front of Harry (and the readers). Harry felt isolated and distanced himself from the two. He decided not to let the two know about the prophecy. No sign of Harry trusting Hermione more than a friend or more than Ron. No sign of Hermione treated Harry more special than Ron (the opposite is true, Hermione treated Ron often as a part of her "we" and "us" than Harry).

So, I hope Jo did not simply brush all off and pair Harry with Hermione or any other girl in the last chapter of the 7th book just because she wants it so.

I think I can post here....

Yes. Harry/Hermione vs. Ron/Hermione. Coming to this site has been interesting, because it's encouraged me to at least question and really think about this assumption.

From the way I've read the book, it's always seemed to me that Rowling was 'clearly' preparing the way for a Ron-Hermione relationship and that the plot is structured towards these two coming together. (And I say this as a happy non-shipper! ) With Ron and Hermione, they bicker, sparks fly, there is heated argument, jealousy, interest, tension, the attraction of opposites - and did I mention arguing? I'll discuss their relationship in another post!

On the other hand, things seem a lot more tepid and sedate with Harry and Hermione, and while I think that there are some convincing arguments that could be made for Hermione having an unwitting concern/interest in Harry that may amount to a deep and unrealised passion - I do think that thus far, Harry seems to be very equanimous amd clear in his feelings towards her. Hermione often displays strong emotion towards Harry, yet there is notable a lack of corresponding depth of display on his side towards her. He cares for her - but he rarely displays it, and he sometimes takes her assistance (and her) for granted.

(Admittedly, so does Ron, but while she highly gets offended at being overlooked and taken for granted by Ron - she doesn't raise similar objections with Harry.)

With that said, I think we have yet to see deep emotional preoccupation with any girl from Harry. I'm not just talking attraction (or Cho) here.

At present, Hermione is just not on his mind, to anywhere near the same degree that he resides in her mind. There is no doubt that Hermione cares for Harry and is deeply interested in him and wants to help him, but I just don't see that interest being reciprocated from Harry TO Hermione. He cares, but he is far more casual and off-hand about it.

The fact that they are both highly preoccupied with Harry's multitude of problems is one of their great, underlying commonalities , but rarely do you see Harry ever contemplating, let alone wanting to help Hermione with whatever problems or stresses that might be going on in her life. There is clear inequity here.

She is continuously concerned about Harry and she worries about him a lot more than he ever worries about her - which places her in the uneviable position of a watchful, nagging, stern (and at times, over bearing) mother-hen figure, ala Mrs. Weasley/Professor McGonagall ( - which elicits Harry's exasperation). She is never his main interest. Even when Hermione is petrified in Book 2, or is brutally taken out of action in Book 5 - Harry does care and he does react - but he is always able to put her aside, focus and think past Hermione. Neither his head, nor his heart is ever filled with thoughts of Hermione.

I really like and admire Hermione a great deal which makes me want the very best for her. And according to the logic of a 'heroic' novel, the hero is usually the most desirable, and the 'best' character in the book. So for me, it's only natural to want to see a favourite character get their due, and receive 'the best'.

However, this doesn't address the issue of whether or not Harry and Hermione's personalities are fundamentally suited to one another....

We could be in for some major twists and surprises over the course of the next two books - but otherwise these two seem to be destined continue along the course of firm friendship that seems to characterises their relationship. Ron and Hermione are being increasingly thrown into each others company and are more likely these days to be on each other's side, while Harry's experiences are dividing him from them while drawing him into increasing isolation.

While they are being drawn together, Harry is being gradually pulled away from them.

One other thing - someone mentioned the novel 'Emma' upthread? And I think I read somewhere that J.K. really likes this novel? Well, "Emma" was pretty open and obvious. The 'mystery' was no mystery to anyone other than the heroine, who mistakes and then has to discover her own feelings... And she does so via a bout of extreme jealousy.

The one thing that characterised the Emma-Knightley relationship (that is distintly absent in the Harry-Hermione relationship) is that they were equally as interested in and preoccupied with each other, and they extended their interest to potential rivals. Yes, Hermione does take an active, encouraging interest in Harry's relationship with Cho, but Harry's interest in her relationship with Krum only displays the mildest curiousity alongside a diffident acceptance. Furthermore, Harry and Hermione are NEVER agitated or disturbed when the other shows interest in someone else.

Now Ron and Hermione have both reaction and reciprocation in terms of emotional display, jealousy, and keen-eyed interest that is extended to evaluating potential partners. But while Harry certainly wouldn't want Hermione to end up with a jerk, I haven't read anything at this stage that suggests to me that he wants Hermione to end up with him, or that any such a result is vital to his happiness. The same however, can't be said for Ron....

Still...the other thing that I have noticed with "Emma" is that she does end up with the person who she has an extremely strong and long-standing friendship with, shared values, and open communicaton. She also chooses the man that she holds in the highest esteem.

If we use respect and admiration as a criteria, the waters become more muddy. Because if it comes down to an issue of sheer trust and respect, then Harry trumps Ron easily. She not only respects Harry's ability as a wizard, but she has extremely high expectations of Harry all round. She expects him to be more sensitive and more understanding. She expects him to be a superior communicator to Ron. She simply assumes that even when he is struggling he will learn things quickly (see her attempts to teach him the accio spell in Book 4). She has faith in him and expects him to solve things and looks to him to triumph in difficult situations - she also expects him to succeed in all that he does.

When she gets her Prefect badge, who does she automatically assume will be standing by her side sharing the momentous honour? Certainly not Ron...

She seems to regard Harry as an equal far more than she does Ron. This is the thing - Hermione is so smart, talented and outstanding. There is nothing mediocre about the girl. So it's difficult for me to envision her with someone that isn't at least equally as gifted as her in some way.

But again, this doesn't address the reciprocation issue. Beyond admring her intelligence and booksmarts, how much does Harry respect Hermione as a person? Anyway, I still think that most of the text points towards a Ron/Hermione hook-up, but while the sparks fly bright between those two and I have no doubt about their attraction - I have some serious misgivings about their underlying suitability. But that's for another post.

I'm going to go off a bit from everybody else's posts for a moment to make a point or two. Now we all know that the Yule Ball sequence and what happened afterward has been examined to death, but I have one small point I'd like to make.

Read through the Yule Ball chapter in GoF from where Parvati comes down to where Krum comes looking for Hermione and count how many times you catch Harry thinking about her with no stimulus. I've counted at least five times when he looked/thought about her in that area where he only thought/looked at Cho and Cedric twice! Doesn't he have a crush on Cho? And when Cho is mentioned, it is as a distraction, whereas the mention of Hermione is described very much. When they are eating, Harry pays very little attention to anyone but Hermione and Krum. His first thought after Dumbledore "orders" his food is about one of Hermione's projects. In a sequence that is designed to be made for couples (though it didn't turn out that way), Harry has his head full of Hermione!

Now, on a non-debate note, I'm feeling a bit deserted. Where have all my fellow shippers gone? I know Dana pops in every once in a while, but she has to study. Just kinda feeling like Esrb now... I'm being kinda ganged up on and I can't take all of the arguements to myself. I am only fourteen... Drawing up different points of view on shipping is not my greatest forte.

Oh! And BTW, when I was talking about the skimming, I was making a comment of how on-the-surface many of the points for shipping evidence supporting R/Hr are to me. They just seem so much like the stuff you see in a lame TV show... But I'm not insulting people or anything. That's just how I see it. I gave the Cho's date thing as an example of something you'd want to skip somewhat.

Aw, Bandoth mate, don't feel deserted. I'm still around...in some shape anyway! I have made some notes of page numbers in PoA and GoF with points I'd like to raise, so maybe instead of coming here for a break, I'll work on a proper post instead and maybe I can get it up within the next few days.

Just one thing I can remember off the top of my head though - that bit where Harry's just got his firebolt back. Ron is totally enamoured with it and wants to take it straight up to the dorm, but Harry notices how drawn and tired Hermione is looking and takes the time to go sit with her, talk to her...he's recognised that something is wrong and pays far more attention to her feelings than Ron does. That's just off the top of my head - I have a lot more to say but I honestly have to get back to my books right now, but I just didn't want you feeling all alone in here!! You're not!!

But yep, I'd noticed all those moments in GoF too... They were on my list.

Yeah bandoth your not alone. im still here, but like you im only 15 and feel kinda intimidated by all these great debaters. lol so im a bit of a hidden shipper. i havn't posted that much because i havn't felt a need to, but anytime i do i will. also i agree with your point about r/hr seeming as more of a television kind of relationship. but then harry potter books arn't about relationships so jk might not want something too subtle and in depth.

LLTWK just a tiny detail that has no significance watsoever but i thought i'd bring it up as lack of nothing better. lol

Sparky48, I have to admire your humble personality, as I do to all who are willing to say "I take what I can from the books, and I'm problay wrong." I say in complete honesty that I say this to myself often, but one of us has to be right, right .
I was thinking about shippers as a group and this is not about the ship they support, but the kind of shipper they are. I've found that these apply to other shippers for differnt Fandom. I think some of my thoughts may amuse you.
1: The self-reilant shipper: This is also the "new" shipper. What people actaully support that, that's crazy! These people wacth something, or read in our case, takes their opions only and runs with them. They don't open their minds even the tinyest bit to a chain of thought that conterdics their beliefes and thoughts. New shippers often act this way, I did, I thought H/Hr was a little crazy to support.
2: The confused shipper: These people don't know which ship they're going with. Well, I see your point, but I also see yours, AHH! I'm so confused! They don't want to be a member of any ship if worry of being wrong and becoming disapointed if they're wrong. I've been this too. With Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I wasn't big on any ship, but Buffy and Angel.
3: The hopeful shipper: They take the good and the bad with their ship. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, and I'll worry about the wrong if and when it happens. They accept what might not make there ship posiable, but ships it anyway. I'm this most of the time, and I'm happy to be it.
4: The stead-fast shipper: These are the shippers other admire for their faith. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but I highly doubt that I am. These people see the proof and think that it speaks for it's self, they see proof of what might make it not posiable and think that it's just created by non-believers. I was this with Roswell, a show that lasted three seasons. I was a conventional shipper, so it was easy. Any one know what that means?
5: The blind-sided shipper: These are the shippers who are a bit mean. Oh whatever, that's wrong, what are you talking about? These are the people who point blank refuse to see certain character situations are characteristics that might may the pairing they support unlikely to happen. I'm glad to say, I've never been this.
6: The jerk shipper: These are the mean shippers. "La, La, La I'm RIGHT, and you're all WRONG, WRONG, WRONG." These are also the ones other people who support this ship don't like them cause they given them a bad name.
I remember a H/Hr shipper saying on the last thread something like "R/Hr shippers seem to think they've seen something amasing, like the Virigin Mary in a chese sandwhich." I think she meant the jerk shippers, I think they make me madder than you H/Hr people. I think you can guess why.

Well, I'd rather not know where you'd all place me on that list, lol. I must say I have been a jerk on occassion. I KNOW I've used the phrase "What are you talking about!?" On at least one occasion.

bravo! That was brilliant! Really brilliant! I wish I could put forward a good argument like that.

One thing I disagree with though:

harry and hermione I think you should go here...!!It'S explained everything!!
Harry and Hermione the best!!
they're just too good to be together!!!
GO HR/H!!
lol

MOD EDIT : Hello and welcome to the forums!! Because you're new, I'd advise you to read through the forums rules before you begin posting. The use of netspeak in the forums is not allowed ("gud" should have been "good", I've edited it for you this time). Also, this is actually a H/H vs R/H DEBATE thread. If you'd just like to chat freely about H/H and how much you love them, you can do so here. Any further questions, feel free to send me or one of the other mods a PM.

Wow, great discussions.

Previously I have shown that Hermione have noticed Ron since book 1, not as a potential lover, but someone interesting for her. In book 3, the readers noticed how Hermione developed a higher feeling for Ron, which was carried over to Book 4. Jo Rowling said that it was Ron who was slow to notice the development of R/Hr relationship in GOF ("typical boys" comment). Since Hermione's signs of affection are directed to Ron, she should be careful not to confuse Harry with them. Thus, the readers didn't see Hermione's affections to Ron because:
- She may not let Harry see it.
- If Ron has problem to see it, let alone Harry can see it.
- Harry may not pick it up anyway, due to his lack of experience.
Therefore, the clear signs should be absent if Jo is consistent with this line. What we can capture is the results, based on her comments on Ron, her amazements etc.

Since Dana and I are still in Book 2, here are 2 quotes from the book about Ron's quality, which we have to dig out to get them.

In Book 2, Jo gave us “between-the-line” information about Ron’s ability. Hermione and Harry recognized that Ron can do more than what we thought

ok, I'm asking for a favor from everyone. Can everyone explain why they ship the ship they do? Sorta a stupid favor, but I'd really like to know why h/hr shippers ship h/hr (not in an insulting way, I'm just curious) There was a person from the h/hr shipper board (yeah, I know I'm not allowed in there, but I couldn't help, but peek ) Egla, (I think it was) gave a fantastic example of why he/she shipped h/hr. It made sense, and I understood it. Plus it wasn't littered with r/hr bashing, which was an added bonus! It's better when you get an understanding of why the opposing ship prefers that ship for the reason they do. H/hr shippers began understand why I ship R/hr after I explain it to them and vica versa. It's sort of an understanding thing. I think it brings ships together to do that...

Anyway, one thing. Could y'all try and not put things like I like _/hr because they don't do this or that. It's a lot more friendly if you go well, I like _/hr because they are (whatever it is) I don't have any time, so I'll give my answer tomorrow or something.

Well, I'd have to say I ship R/Hr because that is what I got out of the books. As I've said before, I was very surprised to discover there were people who even thought H/Hr was a possibility when I first began looking for info on when Book 6 was going to come out and, upon discovering that it was not going to be for quite a while yet, began looking for Theories about what would happen in said book.

I stayed out of the shipping "wars" altogether for several months, thinking it not a topic worth debating. Then "A Heart Once Given" was added to the oldschool Update's column, and I read it. It had managed to convince me that Hermione's feelings were not as certain as I had believed. Even then, I did not get into the debate for weeks and weeks. (If you look at my comments on Lisa's editorial page, you'll see what I mean. I think I left three!) That was the start of my debate.

Yet, I did not act on it until Angua's "D'you Really Think They're Suited?" was posted. Where Lisa addressed Hermione's feelings for Harry, Angua addressed Harry's feelings for Hermione. Yet, she made it seem as if Harry hated Hermione, which we all know is not true.

At that point, I could take no more, and I wrote my editorial, "He Said, She Said"

A few weeks later I began posting on this thread, and got caught up in the debate for the sake of the debate. Ars gratia artis, as it were. (Really, I only know that because it's on the MGM logo. You know, the roaring lion? It means 'art for the sake of art' (thought I'd go a bit snobby for a sec! (wouldn't want anyone to think that was the real me though! (If I really wanted to be a snob, I would've looked up Debate in latin, but that's just going too far!))))

Oh, and did anyone bother to follow that link cul8a left? It's some website with a bunch of pictures of Emma Watson and Dan Radcliffe. (Check out the "FanArt" section ) I sure hope those two get married, they'd make such a great couple

well I should PROBABLY answer my own question so i'll start with a little quote from LLtWK himself....

I personally think that although there are hints all over showing that Harry and Hermione have something going on..Jk already pointed out that Harry and Hermione are platonic friends...other people have asked about a relationship for R/H and she hasn't said anything that's remotely close to a "no"...I'd hang on to R/H..

Egla -

It might've meant something for H/hr but you forgot what she said at the end:

Ahh, that blasted confusing word plation. It can mean passionate, and passion-less at the same time.
The reason I ship Ron and Hermione. To be perfectly honest Harry isn't my favorite character. I just hated the fact that he was so mean to the pair of them in the 5th book, he took them totally for granted. Hermione is my favorite character and always will be. I just don't think Harry can love Hermione like Ron can. Let's dimiss the fact that he almost certainly has a crush on her. Ron has had a happy, normal childhood. He's had a model for love in his parents. He has a good heart, he will be a good person, a good man. He has never made her cry like Harry did, when she was trying to make him see sense after he saw Sirius in the DoM, at one point she backed away from him in fear. Harry needs to let his heart delovep, to allow himself to love, or he'll never be in a healthly relationship with anyone.

Sigh. This is what we get for restarting this thread. Please notice that she said are and not are, and will ever be, and when did she say that, anyway? Definately before OotP, I know. I guess I'm taking over as unofficial moderator of already debated things, eh? Don't worry. I don't have any moderator power at all. I just was there for half the other debate thread.

I was stating that plation has two meanings, I looked it up, it can mean passion-less and unromantic at the sametime mean passionate.Press Club (Sean Bowler) [10/20/99]:
SB: Yes. Um, is there anything that you'd want to add?
JKR: No, I'll see one more question, cause we really didn't get an answer for that.
SB: Very good.
JKR: *looking through questions* No, don't like that one. Oh, I like this one . . . do Harry and Hermione have a date? [laughter] No. They are they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. [laughter and sound of kids going 'Aaah!']
I found that quote and the date from www.ronandhermione.net, they're quite good about there info.

Yes, that is the quote. I agree on the fact it can mean unromantic and passionate at the same time. Just go back to the other thread and look up some of Phoenix's posts. Also, that quote came for a different book. JKR is very tricky when she speaks. Who knows? She could be talking about one book in half the quote, and a different book in the rest.

However, Katie Couric and JKR had a bit... around GoF or OOTP, can't remember which...
but anyways:

When has JKR ever actually given away something that everyone wants to know? There's only two quotes that I've heard of that ever really point us in a specific direction in relation to ships, and one of them is the one we're talking about. But if she's pointing us in a specific direction, why all this secrecy and making us debate like this? Why doesn't she just say it flat out what she means if it is to be taken at the value that many take it?

Okay, it was televized July 11th 2003.

Link: http://www.sugarquill.net/goodshiprh/goodshipclip.mov

It may take a bit long to load, but be patient!!!!

100% official, see the Dateline NBC logo in the left corner of the screen? there you go.

I hope that cleared up your confusion.

~Esrb99~

I think the confusion is that fact that she's giving a story line away, the whole red herring thing. I think JKR's quotes are like a double threat on this thread to shippers, it helps prove and disprove both ships at the same time.
But I have to wonder are their any words other than plation that mean the differnt things at the same time. I suppose it's that way because human relationships can be confusing ones. "The heart has it's reasons, of which reason know nothing."

Could you ALL please recheck the ships rules for this thread....in particular note the following....

* Flog a dead horse. In other words, don't keep making the same point over and over. Once you've stated a point, move on. If you wish to continue debating the same point with someone, take it to PM/email.

I am so very tired of coming here and reading those quotes from Katie Couric and JKR where 'platonic' has been debated and argued and thrashed about until it's just really boring now. It's been done - move on, guys. I think we all understand what she means and what Bandoth was trying to say, I'm sure is that JKR said 'are', as in currently...she did not add 'will never be'...hence that whole argument is just circular. And very boring.

If you have something new to say, great, but I'm going to go crazy if I come here and see this argument still going on.

Replying to Kipsy's question:

I am interested in HP series to guess the mainplot, that is: how to defeat Voldemort. I come to an idea that Harry will need to work with someone who has a similar contact to Voldemort as he does. That person is, IMO, Ginny. Up to book 4, Ginny is a relatively minor character, however due to her baggage (a Weasley girl in generations etc.) it's easy for the author to upgrade her anytime. Now I face a problem, how can Ginny blend in if Harry was rumored to be with Hermione? So I decided to get into the Love Thread.

After rereading the books, I found out that the rumours were not correct (IMO). Harry does not romantically interested in Hermione. Hermione's intention is not clear at a glance, because the books are written from Harry's perspective. Being a boy, who didn't have experience about romance and girls, and not interested in Hermione, Harry is not a good source to interpret Hermione's feeling. The readers have to interpret it themselves from the neutral narrative (free from Harry's opinion).
From book 1 on, I see that Hermione already set her eyes on Ron. Apparently, under the pretense of dislike, Ron also take notice on Hermione. As a bonus, I see that Harry set his eyes on Ginny and vice versa. Great! That's how I suddenly found myself in the ships.(although I prefer hikings)
In all honesty, I regard every signs up to Book 5 as foreshadowing. Until a declaration of unending love is given, nothing is certain. Although I'm sure, in a long and winding trail of twists and surprises, the train of story is going smoothly to one direction only, no looking back, no regrets. So I "ship" R/Hr, not H/Hr. H/G is discussed in this thread.
Nevertheless, Jo can still pull a trick out of her sleeves at the last paragraph of Book 7: When Harry was 60 years old, he found that after years of hidden feelings, he actually loves ...

... to cook.

He, he, yes muggleview, that would be it. I'm still completely unconviced of Harry's supposed deep-down romantic feeling for Hermione. Well him and Ron were fighting he spent more time being mad at Ron than greatful to Hermione.

And also he clearly stated: Hermione was more boring then Harry, there wasn't as much laughter and more going to the libaray.

Anyway, it's something like that. But what I'm saying is, how is Harry supposed to spend the rest of his life with her if he can't even stand a week or two without getting bored? He states he likes being with RON better. When was the last time a person said they have more fun with their friend rather then their "potential lover"

There's some truth to that statement kipsy, I think that H/Hr shippers tend to notice the fact that Hermione stod by Harry at this time, but what I notice is Harry's unappertion for Hermione standing by him and wollows in his self-pity. If Harry has feelings for Hermione, he's hinding them very well.